Microsoft Will Allow Indie Self-publishing, Debugging On Retail Xbox One

tlhIngan writes "Microsoft was the last platform manufacturer to require that all games go through publishers, a much hated policy. Indeed, their approval process was one of the harshest around. But now Microsoft will allow indie developers to self publish, and allow retail Xbox One units to serve as developer consoles. Previously, self-publishing developers were relegated to the 'Xbox Live Indie Arcade' section, as well as developer consoles often costing upwards of $10,000 with special requirements and NDAs. This puts Microsoft's Xbox One more in line with Apple's App Store, including Microsoft's new promise of a 14-day turnaround for approvals. Microsoft's retail debug console system is to work similarly to Apple's — that is, to run pre-release code, the individual consoles used have to be registered with Microsoft."

Comments

Very tempting

[SuperKendall]

If it gives me programatic access to the video stream as they were showing in some of the demos... it would be very interesting indeed.

If it's just games, that's nice for a lot of people but not as exciting in terms of something really new.

Re:Very tempting

[Vanderhoth]

Have you already forgotten about all the DRM crap they were going to, and probably still will, stick in. This is a shallow attempt to regain some public face, they're still planning on screwing their customers, and any developers, that buy into this over.

Re:Very tempting

[Anonymous Coward]

Have you already forgotten about all the DRM crap they were going to, and probably still will, stick in. This is a shallow attempt to regain some public face, they're still planning on screwing their customers, and any developers, that buy into this over.

oh for fuck sake why do you even bother?

Free /. karma from easy upmods?

Re:Very tempting

[Anonymous Coward]

I can't see why anyone would bother with any of the new consoles. All of them are locked down, and all of them have at least some DRM.

Re:Very tempting

[Sir_Sri]

If it's just games, that's nice for a lot of people but not as exciting in terms of something really new.

I don't think it's supposed to be new. It's aimed at indie devs and people like me who teach game development where we cannot justify real development kits to be handed to students (what could possibly go wrong? Oh.. right... students).

The thing is, the Xbox3 is basically a PC, so for anything really 'new' you have PC development to demo it, and then pitch that to someone who has money to let you buy a development kit if you want it. If you just want to make a game, this works well.

Re:Very tempting

[exomondo]

I can't see why anyone would bother with any of the new consoles. All of them are locked down, and all of them have at least some DRM.

Thing is if what you're interested in is playing games - which is what most people who buy games consoles are after - then it's not that much different on the PC, the games publishers are the ones that force the DRM and the platform is irrelevant, just look at EA and Ubisoft games on PC. If you're interested in tinkering (which let's face it, relatively not many people are) then you'd use a PC or an Ouya.
So I can see why people would bother with consoles, 'locked down' and DRM isn't going to be a problem for most people - check out the popularity of iOS devices as an example.

Re:Very tempting

[Anonymous Coward]

Who cares?

It's a DRM-ridden bacdoored piece of junk.

Don't keep rewarding Microsoft. They're an unethical, lying sack of swine.

Re:Very tempting

[Anonymous Coward]

Looks like those "around-the-clock meetings" have had a result. They decided. Moar Astroturf!

If anyone should be mad at the NSA for all the snooping that appears to be going on, it should be the Department of Commerce, not privacy advocates. The recent revelations are not a threat to national security so much as a threat to the national economy. And if I were Microsoft, I'd be having around-the-clock meetings to discuss how to fix what is about to happen.

Microsoft, despite denials, appears to be in bed with the NSA. Apparently all encryption and other methods to keep documents and discussions private are bypassed and accessible by the NSA and whomever it is working with. This means a third party, for whatever reason, can easily access confidential business deals, love letters, government classified memos, merger paperwork, financial transactions, intra-corporate schemes, and everything in between.

With that said, do you really want to buy a Microsoft product?

http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2421733,00.asp

Re:Very tempting

[TWiTfan]

If you're thinking you're going to get access to the unencrypted blu-ray disc stream, you can forget it sparky.

Re:Very tempting

[N0Man74]

...The thing is, the Xbox3 is basically a PC

Which is different from the XBox and XBox2, how?

And it's not "XBox3", it's "XBox One", sometimes abbreviated "XBOne" (but I prefer "XBone").

Re:Very tempting

[Sir_Sri]

The Xbox2 was Power PC. But yes, for our purposes basically a PC.

It's the 3rd Xbox, so Xbox3. Whatever MS marketing wants to call it is irrelevant to what it is. I am very much aware what they are calling it, and very deliberately not going along with it.

In the context of the discussion though, my point was that an xbox dev kit isn't going to let you do something you can't do on a PC, given that there is a kinect SDK already. Anything interesting you can do on an Xbox you can prototype on PC first, and use that to get yourself money for a dev kit.

This is different from say, mobile phones, where most computers don't have flash cameras or a touch screen display that would work particularly well under emulation, or, say, the wii motion controllers which don't have a PC equivalent. If you want to do something innovative with that hardware you need a dev kit for the actual hardware. For the Xbox there isn't really any innovative hardware there. (I don't mean that critically).

Finally, someone to watch me code

[uCallHimDrJ0NES]

I've been looking for an opportunity where I can be assured of a level playing field with other developers. Now that we'll all be on camera together, I finally have one. Do I have to contribute directly to the hidden offline blackbox cache logging of user presence information in order to participate in the developer program?

In the voice of a British peasant

[deanklear]

Oh, thank you, sir! For the privilege of accessing the hardware I have paid you money for, I am forever grateful! Next I should like to beg to turn off the camera feeding directly to the American authorities. Is such a dream possible?

Your faithful servants,
Those Who Haven't Heard About the PS4

Re:In the voice of a British peasant

[Anonymous Coward]

we dont have peasants - The USA asked for them so we sent them all

Re:In the voice of a British peasant

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh, thank you, sir! For the privilege of accessing the hardware I have paid you money for, I am forever grateful!

This is the sort of entitlist mentality that shows how out of touch some people in this community are. An announcement like this is great thing for geeks, tinkerers and developers, but the posts that are already rolling in on this story show that people here are more concerned with playing devil's advocate, conspiracy theories, fanboyism and anti-everything than they are with technology.

They don't *have* to provide APIs and app stores and all that stuff, in days past if you really wanted all that sort of stuff you would do it yourself on a PC, but consoles ended up way more popular because the experience is better, you don't have to fuck around with settings and system requirements and drivers and then worry about your PC slowing down because of additional software that you have installed or malware or all that crap. Now yes you can mitigate all that stuff (and it requires a little work) but on a console you don't have to and when 99%+ of people don't want access to the hardware or APIs the console is the logical choice.

The minority that claims this "freedom" is necessary has always had the power to show it as being the superior way through PCs, open embedded systems, open smartphones, etc, but ultimately nothing has been done that has really struck a chord with the majority population vs what is provided on the alternative closed platforms. So it's time to stop all the bitching and whining about the existence of closed platforms and start using the existing open platforms to prove that they are better and win by being better!

Re:In the voice of a British peasant

[deanklear]

This is the sort of entitlist mentality that shows how out of touch some people in this community are. An announcement like this is great thing for geeks, tinkerers and developers, but the posts that are already rolling in on this story show that people here are more concerned with playing devil's advocate, conspiracy theories, fanboyism and anti-everything than they are with technology.

There's no conspiracy theory. Microsoft thinks that for the privilege of owning one of their devices, they are entitled to access to all of my data, and they are free to forward it to the NSA in exchange for cash (which is happening right now). As a plus, I am not allowed to disconnect the device from the internet, turn off the camera, or buy/sell used games, lend them to a friend, or any of the other very common practices most gamers have with their existing consoles.

Placing one of these Orwell's Nightmare devices in your living room is lunacy.

Re:In the voice of a British peasant

[MarkusQ]

Oh, thank you, sir! For the privilege of accessing the hardware I have paid you money for, I am forever grateful!

This is the sort of entitlist mentality that shows how out of touch some people in this community are.

So objecting to "you bought it but we still get to control how you use it" is somehow "entitlist"?

I agree people shouldn't buy shackled hardware in the first place, but that doesn't mean that it's in any way ethical to sell it. And claiming that the public has made an informed decision by choosing heavily marketed closed systems over the essentially unmarketed open alternatives doesn't pass the laugh test.

-- MarkusQ

Re:In the voice of a British peasant

[Anonymous Coward]

Microsoft thinks that for the privilege of owning one of their devices, they are entitled to access to all of my data, and they are free to forward it to the NSA in exchange for cash (which is happening right now).

if you actually believe that then dont buy one. problem solved.

I am not allowed to disconnect the device from the internet

false, dont be such a submissive corporate fuckpig, you can disconnect it any time you want. just like your pc, your phone, your cable, noone will stop you, they already eliminated the need for the constant connection.

turn off the camera

false.

buy/sell used games

false.

lend them to a friend

false.

Placing one of these Orwell's Nightmare devices in your living room is lunacy.

yeah and people dont already carry much more personal devices with all kinds of sensors and tracking capabilities around with them every day and have for years, never heard of a smartphone have you? get with the times.

Re:In the voice of a British peasant

[steelfood]

It's elitist because GGP is suggesting buying the PS4 instead. After all the crap Sony pulled, I wouldn't trust them either...

Re:In the voice of a British peasant

[deanklear]

dont be such a submissive corporate fuckpig

Says the anonymous coward defending Microsoft over DRM and openness...

I do have to say that I was wrong... I had no idea Microsoft reversed their policies on everything they announced at E3. I haven't owned anything since the Dreamcast, so the console nonsense doesn't matter either way. I did think it was hilarious that those idiots tried to get away with it, though. Additionally, Donn Mattrick's whiney, foot stomping press release is priceless. Imagine how many meetings and buzzwords evaporated just because some executives forgot that they still had to sell their device to people and care about their opinion.

"But, our synergy and best of breed digital lifestyle metrics! Nooooooooooo!"

Re:In the voice of a British peasant

[Anonymous Coward]

So objecting to "you bought it but we still get to control how you use it" is somehow "entitlist"?

yes, you dont get to dictate the terms on which they sell a product, nobody forces you to buy it so dont.

And claiming that the public has made an informed decision by choosing heavily marketed closed systems over the essentially unmarketed open alternatives doesn't pass the laugh test.

the pc has been out for decades, and decades of openness hasnt provided consumers a better experience than the closed systems yet people still bitch and moan that closed systems exist! how about instead of whining and complaining you actually do something to prove that open systems are better. if it were open it would basically just be a pc, which we already have, so whatever you want to do with that open hardware can already be done and since pcs are much more ubiquitous than consoles the distribution and spread of it is far easier, so show that openness is better!

Re:In the voice of a British peasant

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh, thank you, sir! For the privilege of accessing the hardware I have paid you money for, I am forever grateful!

This is the sort of entitlist mentality that shows how out of touch some people in this community are. An announcement like this is great thing for geeks, tinkerers and developers, but the posts that are already rolling in on this story show that people here are more concerned with playing devil's advocate, conspiracy theories, fanboyism and anti-everything than they are with technology.

You must be new here...

Re:In the voice of a British peasant

[Anonymous Coward]

yes, you dont get to dictate the terms on which they sell a product

Then they shouldn't get to dictate what I do with it once ownership has transferred and it's in my possession.

nobody forces you to buy it so dont.

Good advice.

Re:In the voice of a British peasant

[Anonymous Coward]

Then they shouldn't get to dictate what I do with it once ownership has transferred and it's in my possession.

they dont, do whatever you want with the hardware you bought.

Re:In the voice of a British peasant

[Anaerin]

Oh, thank you, sir! For the privilege of accessing the hardware I have paid you money for, I am forever grateful! Next I should like to beg to turn off the camera feeding directly to the American authorities. Is such a dream possible?

Yes, yes it is. As they have said, countless times, you can disable the Kinect entirely if you so desire. If you have any proof whatsoever that data from XBoxes/Kinects are being sent to any US authorities (without a fully authorised warrant being issued), do please point to it, post it, or something similar. Otherwise it's just rampant, and damaging, speculation on your part.

Except, of course, that you're just a troll, and all you can do is innuendo and speculation to try and shill for your particular corporate overlord.

Re:In the voice of a British peasant

[Kielistic]

Just don't tell anyone else about it. And definitely don't tell them how you did it- that's copyright violation, dmca, wire-fraud, etc, etc.

Re:In the voice of a British peasant

[exomondo]

Just don't tell anyone else about it. And definitely don't tell them how you did it- that's copyright violation, dmca, wire-fraud, etc, etc.

I'm fairly sure doing what you want with the hardware you own isn't any of those things.

Re:In the voice of a British peasant

[Kielistic]

I would agree but that doesn't stop some pretty powerful players from attacking you.

Citation provided: Sony Computer Entertainment America v. George Hotz

Re:In the voice of a British peasant

[exomondo]

He hacked the software, the key difference there is that while the hardware is sold the software is not which is where all the things you listed come into play.

Re:In the voice of a British peasant

[Kielistic]

So how exactly do you propose to use hardware without using software? How do you run your own software on something with an encrypted bootloader without reverse engineering the software to learn how it works? How would you use your xbox one, which is exactly what this thread is about and is locked down exactly the same as the ps3, without using a similar process George Hotz did to the PS3?

Are you purposefully being disingenuous or are you actually just that dense? Sometimes it's hard to tell on Slashdot.

Re:In the voice of a British peasant

[exomondo]

So how exactly do you propose to use hardware without using software?

Not quite sure why you're asking me that, I don't propose anything, though I guess you would have to write your own software since you own hardware but don't own any software.

How do you run your own software on something with an encrypted bootloader without reverse engineering the software to learn how it works?

Again I'm not quite sure why you're asking me that, I don't know, but certainly a lot of open source developers build drivers for hardware without reverse-engineering existing software, not exactly something I would bother with frankly, probably just go with a PC or an Ouya or something like that.

How would you use your xbox one, which is exactly what this thread is about and is locked down exactly the same as the ps3, without using a similar process George Hotz did to the PS3?

If I wanted to do that I wouldn't buy an xbox one.

Are you purposefully being disingenuous or are you actually just that dense? Sometimes it's hard to tell on Slashdot.

Actually it appears you are just confused. Perhaps you need to explain to me what you think I'm trying to say or advocate because you've asked all these questions yet I haven't suggested you can, could or should be able to do any of it, frankly if you want to do that and you bought and xbox one then you're an idiot. Maybe you're replying to the wrong post because I'm pointing out is that you own the hardware, you don't own the software, which is the difference so you are indeed free to do whatever you like with what you own and Microsoft can't do shit about it.

Yes it would be nice if you owned the software, it would also be nice if the DCMA and copyright violation and wire fraud shit that the US imposes went away too.

Re:In the voice of a British peasant

[Anonymous Coward]

They reversed it... for now. But the Kinect, that camera/mic combo, is still mandatory. If you unplug it, your box will refuse to work. One has to wonder why it does that, if it isn't working when you turn it off.

Re:In the voice of a British peasant

[Camael]

dont be such a submissive corporate fuckpig

Says the anonymous coward defending Microsoft over DRM and openness...

I have to admit, I loled.

Re:In the voice of a British peasant

[Anonymous Coward]

The fact is that cheating is much better controlled on "shackled" hardware, and for those of us who like playing online multiplayer on a level playing field, that's a big bonus.

PC gaming has too many aimbots, radars and wallhacks, and precisely because the client controls the platform, the client can manipulate the platform, and even the likes of PB are a mere bandaid at best.

Re:In the voice of a British peasant

[Kielistic]

Well you see: this thread was about using hardware you bought. In this case, specifically, the xbox one. Now you and at least one other person came in and said that you can use the hardware you bought any way that you want. I just laid out some very specific and real reasons why you cannot use hardware that you bought and own.

You cannot say that you "own" the hardware and can use it however when you are legally disallowed from actually using however. That is the entire topic of discussion here. Stop maintaining that you own the hardware and are free to do what you want with it. That is simply false for any effective use of the hardware. I don't know about you but my definition of "whatever i want" is not "turn it on and use it how I'm told or smash it with a hammer".

I guess I'm confused because you decided to chime in with a retort that had absolutely nothing to do with the discussion and was provably false.

Re:In the voice of a British peasant

[AmiMoJo]

Yes, yes it is

No, no it isn't. You can disable the standby mode in software but the console needs it plugged in to work. Unless you physically unplug it ever single time you turn the console off there is nothing to stop MS inserting a backdoor for the FBI/CIA/NSA/GCHQ that lets them silently turn it back on whenever they like.

If you have any proof whatsoever that data from XBoxes/Kinects are being sent to any US authorities

I think it's safe to assume everything accessible to Microsoft is accessible to them now.

Re:In the voice of a British peasant

[Anonymous Coward]

Adding a delusion about the camera feeding to authorities completely undermines whatever point you may have been trying to make.

Re:In the voice of a British peasant

[Anonymous Coward]

Just unplug the camera? It's not as bad as laptops where it is built in.

Re:In the voice of a British peasant

[exomondo]

I just laid out some very specific and real reasons why you cannot use hardware that you bought and own.

But you're wrong, I outlined exactly why you are wrong and you're just complaining that it's difficult. I can't run OSX on my Android tablet but that doesn't mean I cannot use the hardware I bought and own, the problem is software and software licensing, not hardware.

You cannot say that you "own" the hardware and can use it however when you are legally disallowed from actually using however.

You aren't legally disallowed from using it however you want, just try and actually think about it, take the software out of the equation (because you don't own that) and then you are free to do whatever you want with the hardware, what you want to do might not be easy but that's hardly the point. You're just complaining that it's hard.

Stop maintaining that you own the hardware and are free to do what you want with it.

It's a fact, just because you don't like it doesn't make it untrue.

That is simply false for any effective use of the hardware.

Because your "effective use of the hardware" means you also want to use their software, but that isn't hardware. Why can't you comprehend that?

I guess I'm confused because you decided to chime in with a retort that had absolutely nothing to do with the discussion and was provably false.

It's not provably false at all, your inability to comprehend the difference between hardware ownership and software licensing is your failing, nobody elses.

Re:In the voice of a British peasant

[Kielistic]

Your inability to understand that hardware (especially a computing device) is useless without software is mind-numbing.

Your arguments are asinine. Your choices to use these computers are "do it like this" or "shut it off". Nobody but an idiot or a corporate shill would claim that those two options are "how ever you want". You cannot use a computer without software because the software is what runs the hardware (do you actually know how a computer works?)

It is not that it is hard; it is in matter of fact impossible. Locked boot-loaders, hypervisors, protected paths. How do you devise getting these to work without the software they have been locked to? Really, please. There's a whole world of people out there that would love to know a legal way to do this.

Let me put it to you using the simplest of concepts. Locked boot-loaders, hypervisors, protected paths. We'll call these "locks" here. They are locks of the digital variety so let's call them "digital locks" lest you confuse them with their real-life namesake. Now what does the DMCA have to say about breaking "digital locks"? The answer is that it says it is a no-no.

So you can please explain to me how you propose to use a computing device how ever you want without using software in an "unlicensed" manner. Or I will continue thinking you made a dumb comment and are incapable of accepting being wrong so will steadfastly deny it. I suppose you could really just not understand what you are talking about also.

Re:In the voice of a British peasant

[exomondo]

Your inability to understand that hardware (especially a computing device) is useless without software is mind-numbing.

I'm quite aware hardware is useless without software, but things like openiboot enabled that on the iphone and there is no reason that couldn't happen on xbox hardware.

You cannot use a computer without software because the software is what runs the hardware (do you actually know how a computer works?)

The fact that you are saying this means you are clearly not able to comprehend what has been written, nobody is disputing this, you just have this idiotic idea that hardware only works with the software provided with it, why do you think that?

It is not that it is hard; it is in matter of fact impossible. Locked boot-loaders, hypervisors, protected paths. How do you devise getting these to work without the software they have been locked to? Really, please.

Yeah, nobody ever managed to get around locked bootloaders *rollseyes* And these 'hypervisors' and 'protected paths' are software, but you don't want to use their software.

So you can please explain to me how you propose to use a computing device how ever you want without using software in an "unlicensed" manner.

Just don't use software that you don't own, yes you have to write your own, no it's not easy, but your assertion that it is 'impossible' just shows how uninformed and unimaginative you really are, how do you think things like openiboot or nvidia noveau drivers were developed?

Re:In the voice of a British peasant

[Kielistic]

You have three options for learning how hardware works and writing your own software.

1. You can use trial and error and hope you don't break it and hope you figure out enough to do anything with before the universe experiences heat death.
2. You can get an electron microscope and use it to give you a slight leg-up on option 1.
3. You can circumvent digital locks and reverse engineer the currently running software.

Which option do you think every successful attempt uses?

Additionally, because it happened on one device does not automatically mean it is possible for every device. That's like logical fallacy 101.

Yes, people get around locked boot loaders all the time. But do you know what the first step to getting around a locked boot loader is? Getting the encryption keys! So now your first problem is distributing those keys is a DMCA violation (read up on that Sony v George Hotz link I posted). Your second problem is that in order to get those keys you must have broken your license agreement. I mean maybe you brute forced it but in reality that is essentially impossible.

So yes- cracking a locked bootloader is very possible and done all the time. But no it is not legal*. If the manufacturer gets the inkling they can make your life hell for having the gall to try to use the hardware that you bought. Because Apple hasn't done so over OpeniBoot does not mean that they do not have the power to. Which is what the problem is.

* not legal in the United States. Most of these projects get around that by not being based in the United States.

Re:In the voice of a British peasant

[exomondo]

Which option do you think every successful attempt uses?

Just to clarify, what you're saying is that projects like Noveau, openiboot, XBMC, etc... are all illegal?

* not legal in the United States. Most of these projects get around that by not being based in the United States.

Well I'm not in the US, most people are not in the US, the problem is with the US legal system and the unwillingness of its population to do anything about it.

Re:In the voice of a British peasant

[Kielistic]

Just to clarify, what you're saying is that projects like Noveau, openiboot, XBMC, etc... are all illegal?

The projects themselves? Probably not. But the act of installing them and telling others how to install them most likely is. Breaking a locked bootloader would definitely fall under anti-circumvention laws (yes it is ridiculous). Having XBMC on your original Xbox probably was though because it required breaking copy protection and as far as I know still allowed you to connect to the xbox network? I might be wrong there but that's the kind of thing you get computer / wire fraud thrown into your list of charges for.

Well I'm not in the US, most people are not in the US, the problem is with the US legal system and the unwillingness of its population to do anything about it.

100% agree (I'm not in the US either). But that doesn't mean either of us are completely safe from it. There is a very strong and well-funded push to make these laws more global. And not being in the states won't stop a determined corporation from ruining your life. That they don't does not mean that they can't or won't in the future. That's what people (like myself) take issue with- being at the good-graces of corporations to be able to use what I pay for.

Re:In the voice of a British peasant

[tepples]

To which country do you recommend that U.S. residents interested in this line of work move?

Probably only verifiable .NET code

[Myria]

I'm going to guess that they'll only allow independent developers to use verifiable .NET code in their games. Allowing native code is exceptionally dangerous, because it multiplies the attack surface by several times. It's almost guaranteed that sandboxes running native code will have escape bugs on release day.

Re:Probably only verifiable .NET code

[EdZ]

The ever-reliable (and highly cryptic) CBOAT hints that the 'self published' code will be limited to the 'Windows 8 app store' mode, along with the 3gb of memory set aside for the Win8 mode.

Re:Probably only verifiable .NET code

[Anonymous Coward]

.net is dead, zed.

Re:Probably only verifiable .NET code

[Nemyst]

They've killed XNA and haven't announced any .NET-based replacement, so I'd be very surprised if that were the case.

Re:Probably only verifiable .NET code

[TrollstonButterbeans]

Within 10 years, I'd be a bit shocked if the consoles are not majorly impacted by some sort of phone that plugs into your HDTV device that supports a controller --- likely on Android, but possibly Apple too. One example: http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/872297630/gamestick-the-most-portable-tv-games-console-ever

Or this pressure could come from Valve/SteamBox or an unforeseen marketplace entry.

The PSP and the Nintendo DS are on their last legs due to iPads/Android/iPods/maybe Kindles too, it is only a matter of time before cell phones (with ability to HDMI connect to HDTV) start to knock off the console business model.

It may not kill consoles --- but consoles will face enormous pressure on pricing, developer access. The PS4 would likely go down first.

Re:Probably only verifiable .NET code

[Anonymous Coward]

PS4 did a 180 from their corporate attitude and blew everyone away. Nobody expected them to change their shady corporate policies but they did. Meanwhile Microsoft shook the world like a British nanny shakes a child and it's likely not going to workout. Now you're talking about ipads etc killing off traditional mobile gaming but that's not going to happen any time soon. A phone or tablet is made for simple games that uses touch-screen interfaces. But without those buttons, people aren't going to want to play intense or "real" games on them. In fact, there's only a few "real" games on phones/tablets. When you design something multipurpose, you lose focus on your priority. A smartphone makes for a terrible phone, but it can do just about everything -- just not that great. Jack of all trades, master of none. This is why a PC is not yet favorable over consoles, because consoles are designed for gaming and are a lot better at delivering console-style games to people. However, there will come a point within the next 20-years when we break the reality barrier (I forgot what it's called) and it won't make a damn difference if you're on a PC or cellphone, the visuals will look no different than real-life. At that point, will you really care if something is on a PC or a Console? No. If it runs the game, then it's good enough. But most likely in 20-years we won't be storing data on our computers for video-games as it will probably be cloud-based, stream gaming.

Re:Probably only verifiable .NET code

[Anonymous Coward]

So the Sony did a 180, changing everything, and Microsoft did a 360, changing nothing?

Xbox One

[cstec]

Too little, too late. It's not like anyone's forgotten their original intentions. We're multiplatform devs and Xbox One isn't on our list anymore.

Re:Xbox One

[WiiVault]

Good! I've never been against porting to any platform that gives a dev more potential customers; Until the X1. Fuck those assholes for what they tried(and nearly succeeded) to do. We won't forget and my 360 is the last Xbox I will ever buy.

Re:Xbox One

[WiiVault]

Oh I think value will be lost. We're already seeing it in the disintegration of the Xbox brand globally. Now kindly fuck off troll. Cheers!

Re:Xbox One

[Anonymous Coward]

Too little, too late. It's not like anyone's forgotten their original intentions.

Yes, Steam on a console. How awful that would have been. We're so grateful that fools like you saved us from that terrible, terrible fate.

Re:Xbox One

[cbhacking]

You know, for somebody who *sounds* like you're anti-DRM, that sure isn't reflected in your actions. If you want MS (and the other big players; they all watch each other) to reduce DRM in the future, reward them for *not* locking down the console like they originally planned to do. They listened to customer feedback. They responded. They made the right choice... and for that, you propose to punish them? Wow, that's a great plan right there. Which message do you think will be taken away from that?

1) Well, looks like nobody actually cared whether there was DRM or not in the first place. No need to listen to those whiney kids in the future!
2) Wow, sounds like people on the Internet are just petulant little children who will object *whatever* we do! May as well increase DRM in the future, at least the publishing industry likes that...

I'll give you a hint: neither one makes the attitude you're currently expressing look good, but neither one gets you what you want, either.

Oh, and out of curiosity, what other platforms do you develop for? Because there's only one that in the last few years has retroactively removed advertised features from its console in the name of more DRM, and then sued the people who worked around it. It's not Microsoft, either.

Re:Xbox One

[Anonymous Coward]

Not sure I understand, given that they did change when they heard the overwhelming feedback. That's behaviour I want to reward, not discourage by making it clear that next time once they say something awful, they might as well stick to it forever.

Re:Xbox One

[exomondo]

There is a class of people - often very vocal - that will dismiss anything that comes from Microsoft or Apple or Sony on the basis that it's not free and open but I really have to wonder what would we actually get if they were?

If the XBox or Playstation were open they would just be pretty average, overpriced PCs. But we already have PCs so why would we want that?

People used openiboot to install Linux on the iPhone but aside from the ability to do it what good was it? Why not just get an Android phone?

Even for all the talk about the Surface there are vocal complaints about how it's locked down so you can't install Linux on it, but even if it wasn't why would you bother? Why not get an already available Linux tablet? You can even turn off SecureBoot on the Surface Pro so if there really was a great reason to open the RT version up then it could be demonstrated on the Pro because it's already open.

I'm sure there are tiny niche answers to these questions but realistically we have open alternatives to pretty much everything already. What's the point in complaining about how some devices aren't open when we could be supporting the wealth of available ones that are?

Re:Xbox One

[Anonymous Coward]

Good! I've never been against porting to any platform that gives a dev more potential customers; Until the X1. Fuck those assholes for what they tried(and nearly succeeded) to do. We won't forget and my 360 is the last Xbox I will ever buy.

I know, let's support these assholes instead.

Car Analogy

[Anonymous Coward]

Ford Will Allow Indie Driving, Sightseeing On Retail Focus

"Ford was the last automobile manufacturer to require that all routes go through manufacturers, a much hated policy. Indeed, their approval process was one of the harshest around. But now Ford will allow indie drivers to self guide, and allow retail Focus units to serve as tourism vehicles. Previously, self-guiding drivers were relegated to the 'Ford Indie Car Track' section, as well as route design vehicles often costing upwards of $100,000 with special requirements and NDAs. This puts Ford's Focus more in line with GM's Chevrolet models, including Ford's new promise of a 14-day turnaround for indie route approvals. Ford's retail route design vehicle is to work similarly to GM's — that is, to drive pre-release routes, the individual vehicles used have to be registered with Ford."
----------

Question: Why are we letting computer manufacturers get away with something that automobile manufacturers could never get away with?

Re:Car Analogy

[Anonymous Coward]

Question: Why are we letting computer manufacturers get away with something that automobile manufacturers could never get away with?

well obviously the analogy isnt analogous but more to the point in the computing industry the open alternative is entirely uncompelling. the real question is why do you even want the xbox one to be open? it would just be another PC which you, like most people, more than likely already have yet do nothing particularly compelling with.

the fact is the openness already exists in PC gaming and if openness really is as necessary and brilliant as people like you claim it to be then the PC would have already proven it and console gaming would have long failed, but it hasnt, no all we have seen is a few choice titles that work better with a mouse and everything else is crappy console ports. unfortunately those who can't do, complain. but if you truly believe openness is beneficial then do something about it, use the available open platforms as a champion for openness because right now all they are proving is that openness is pointless.

Re:Car Analogy

[Sockatume]

Ford doesn't take responsibility for the quality of the highways and what happens on them, although that would let them sell more trucks. (The Turnpike, now with 99% less accidents and Smoothdrive(TM)!) Microsoft does take responsiblity for the quality of Xbox games and what happens on the Live service, using that as a selling point.

Re:Car Analogy

[Sockatume]

AOL is a good comparison. They had their own little corner with its own content, which AOL built and maintained, and when you paid for AOL you paid for that safe - but restricted - little selection. You might think that's a dumb idea and prefer to go elsewhere, but that's the basic idea.

Of course this makes a games console rather like a PC that could only access AOL, which is a nightmare vision that never came to pass in this universe.

Potential for bypass

[SuperKendall]

Have you already forgotten about all the DRM crap they were going to, and probably still will, stick in.

Using it as a development system potentially allows you to bypass much of the DRM to do your own thing... just as an iOS developer can do whatever they like with apps they write for personal use.

But realistically, the DRM aspect never really bothered me since it's pervasive now, especially with media. As long as I feel fine with every purchase in reality being a rental (even though they claim you are "buying" media), I can live with what they have.

Re:Potential for bypass

[EdZ]

Using it as a development system potentially allows you to bypass much of the DRM to do your own thing

Taking bets now on whether 'registering with Microsoft' to turn your console into a devkit entails regular (or continuous) sign-ins when running unsigned code. Couldn't let people run what they wanted on consumer devices without some way to limit it, because piracy might somehow spontaneously occur!

Re:Potential for bypass

[Anonymous Coward]

But realistically, being raped never really bothered me since mostly everybody is forcefully shoving it in my ass now, especially outdoors. As long as they are gentle and use lube, I can live with all the jizz in my rectum.

Hyperboles are useful.

Re:now trun around on windows and have the start m

[jones_supa]

A lunch pad could be a great feature. Especially as breadcrumbs can no more get inside the keyboard thanks to touchscreens.

Potential

[SuperKendall]

I don't think it's supposed to be new.

Probably not, but the thing is there is *potential* for something new here beyond just writing games for some other system. That's what interests me most.

Yep!

[Knuckx]

On the Xbox 360, you can use a retail console as a (limited) devkit for developing Xbox Live Indie Games with XNA. This requires two things: XBLIG Membership attached to your Xbox Live account, and the development/debug tool installed on the Xbox 360 (XNA Game Studio Connect). XNA Game Studio Connect requires you to be signed in to Xbox Live with an account with XBLIG membership before it will launch unsigned code. If at any time during execution of unsigned code your network connection drops, or you sign out of Xbox Live, the hypervisor/debugger forcefully resets the console.

I am gonna guess that you are 100% correct in your guess of retail XB1's behavior when running unsigned code - at least going from my use of XBLIG/XNA Game Studio Connect.

The NSA needs Xbox One sales

[Anonymous Coward]

The Xbox One is riddled with two forms of evil. The one that matters is the NSA spying platform features. The one that matters less is the plethora of spiteful Microsoft restrictions.

Bill Gates and the NSA partnered to create the Xbox One. It is the Microsoft crap, not the NSA spy features, that seem to be killing enthusiasm amongst potential buyers. So, surprise surprise, bit by bit the Microsoft crap is being rolled back.

The Xbox One had possibly the worst launch ever seen. The Xbox360 is really popular, and the success of the follow-up should have been a no-brainer. Instead, the PS4 look like it will make a clean sweep, and become the most successful console ever. Needless to say, the NSA were far from happy.

Spying aside, Microsoft has now addressed everything but price. Given that the Xbox One is half (as in 50%) as powerful as the PS4 for AAA gaming, the Xbone needs to sell far below Sony's new console. Microsoft will attempt to reach price parity with Sony by using the value of bundled games. However, Microsoft will not undercut Sony, thankfully ruining its chances at launch.

-the Xbox One Kinect system has two dedicated CPU cores, a large chunk of the RAM and HDD space for its exclusive use, and many dedicated hardware blocks.

-Kinect is ALWAYS on, and can function at 100% even when the user is thrashing a system with a non-Kinect AAA game.

-Kinect on EVERY console monitors everyone who enters and leaves the room. It photographs their faces. It uploads this data for the NSA to untraceable 'cloud' servers and does this at least once a day (the real reason Microsoft initially wanted everyone to have to have an Internet connection).

-Every online Xbone is visible to the NSA, and can be instructed to start a video stream within 10 milliseconds. The steam is encoded and encrypted in realtime by the console with no impact on any current running application or game. Kinect has its own independent OS and operates like the THIRD computer system within the console. The other separate computer systems handle games/apps and always-on background tasks.

-Even when offline, the Xbone stores encrypted data to the HDD for later uploading.

-The NSA can remotely program ANY online Xbone with a list of trigger conditions. When activated, a trigger will usually begin a stream from the Kinect sensors, storing this stream on the HDD if the console is currently offline. Triggers can include things like a particular person entering the room (via face matching), sexual activity in the room, or certain sounds like a gunshot.

-Kinect, despite propaganda from Microsoft shills CANNOT be deactivated or even blocked using tape or pointing it at a wall. Kinect shows NO indication when it is operating, because it is ALWAYS operating. Kinect LEDs simply indicate active user-requested recording. Deactivating Kinect recording in the menu simply and ONLY prevents the user's friends from having access to the Kinect video streams.

-If the user attempts to 'sabotage' the Kinect sensors externally (for instance, using tape), the console immediately throws up demands for 'recalibration'. Kinect 'learns' your room when first set up. it's depth sensor makes it vanishingly hard to fool the system. If people do not appear in front of it, for instance, it knows something is up and again, demands recalibration.

-try hard enough, and Kinect CAN be fooled. But people with the skills will have the common sense NOT to buy the Xbox One in the first place. Research by Gates and NSA partners indicates that the vast majority of people who consider buying the console will lose their concerns about privacy after a couple of weeks top, and will happily give the Kinect cameras the perfect view of the room in which it is installed. Likewise,almost none of the potential customers will ever disconnect the console from their router.

The Xbox One is the most ambitious full surveillance spying project by the NSA in US history. It takes NSA spying into the one place that previously excluded governm

Re:The NSA needs Xbox One sales

[jeffmflanagan]

If you signed your post, your friends might recognize that it's you, and get you some help. As it is, I can only urge you to get some professional help regarding your extreme paranoia.

Developers, developers

[Spy Handler]

developers, developers, developers, developers, developers, developers, developers, developers, developers, developers.

Developers, developers, developers, developers, developers, developers *cough* developers, developers, developers.... DEVELOPERS!

Signed,
Ballmer

Re:Developers, developers

[preflex]

Not anymore, baby! Now it's advertisers, advertisers, advertisers, advertisers, advertisers!

Could be good.

[goruka]

If this means:
1) Running native code (C/C++)
2) Running a regular Windows 8 Modern binary
3) Running DirectX 11

I'm in. They got me as a customer from day 1.

Re:Could be good.

[Anonymous Coward]

They did essentially the same thing with the Xbox 360 - I think it was $99 a year, and it let you compile against and run code on your registered Xbox (only!) from Visual Studio using the Xbox SDK. I think it even worked with the express editions, though I may be mistaken.

Of course, if you were still early in development, you could target the Xbox and run your code on your computer, but then you could run in to performance issues, such as having too much performance in your dev environment to realistically reflect what your game would run like.

You still needed to go through the ordinary approval process if you actually did write a game for it that you wanted to distribute.

Urk

[SuperKendall]

If at any time during execution of unsigned code your network connection drops, or you sign out of Xbox Live, the hypervisor/debugger forcefully resets the console.

Well that sounds really un-appealing, I have to say... I develop a lot of times in places where I have spotty connectivity. I'll for sure wait and see what reports are like in developing for the system before I spring for one...

Re:Urk

[tepples]

I develop a lot of times in places where I have spotty connectivity.

When in such areas, develop your XNA game as if it were an XNA game for Windows PCs, and work on the port to the Xbox family platform only when you have a quality Internet connection. I get the same problem: I do some development work on a laptop on the bus, where I can't test on the ultimate target platform.

Re:Urk

[jeffmflanagan]

I'd never get any code written if my PC rebooted every time the internet dropped for a moment. I see no reason we should accept that from an XBox.

Re:Urk

[tlhIngan]

If at any time during execution of unsigned code your network connection drops, or you sign out of Xbox Live, the hypervisor/debugger forcefully resets the console.

Well that sounds really un-appealing, I have to say... I develop a lot of times in places where I have spotty connectivity. I'll for sure wait and see what reports are like in developing for the system before I spring for one...

It's no different than if you sign into Xbox Live and play a game you bought there - if your network connection drops, boom you're kicked out of the game as your license requires either playing on the original console you downloaded it on (or annual transfer), or being signed into the same Xbox Live account that purchased it.

It's one of the few times where the daily checkin was better - as long as you were signed in, dropping your connection didn't do a thing to your game - you could continue playing to your heart's content until it re-establishes. If you've got a spotty connection, as long as it could check in once a day, you're golden versus having to pray your connection doesn't drop while playing on another console.

I never saw a point in devkits and NDA

[Anonymous Coward]

The NDA really did nothing that wasn't already public knowledge and the devkits were an annoying POS. With a PC or Android, you don't have to worry about those things and just debug things as-is. Additionally, the performance changes from a devkit to the real machine. Core debug options should be available in retail systems because they worry too much about hacks. The xbox 360 was hacked within days, the PS3 was hacked over and over again, the Wii was hacked practically over the first weekend. As for the NDA, nobody cares about those anymore and I don't even think they are legal in court. Microsoft had a perfect opportunity when Sony gave indie devs the finger with the PS3, and that could have been golden. But alas, Sony stepped it up and said that they will take care of indie devs and so did others. You lost your chance and the Xbox One is as good as dead. I hope you're enjoying your nights with NSA because you won't be enjoying it with your former fans.

Translation:

[symbolset]

Oh, shit. We screwed up sooo bad. Somebody, anybody - throw us a bone here!

Re:Translation:

[Sockatume]

More like "Sony did it, so should we."

Has MS made a decision regarding the Xbox where they haven't backtracked to "whatever Sony is doing"? It seems like Mark Cerny has more control over the Xbox One's capabilites than Ballmer does.

Cool..

[SuperDre]

That's a smart move, now I only hope Sony will do the same, they already have something like that for the retail PS-vita with its Playstation Mobile SDK.. This is also the only reason why I'm running a custom firmware on my PS3, so I can do some homebrew..
Maybe I'll just buy myself a xboxnone when I have actually already a nice app/game running, just to be able to test it and maybe even publish it..

No, no NO! This is the TRUTH

[SmallFurryCreature]

This is MS final policy on DRM and everything else, until the NEXT time they change their mind...

It is one of MS biggest failings, they change their mind at the drop of a hat/stock price and have turned burning bridges into an art.

You only got to follow PC gaming and MS attitude towards it to see that MS has the attention pan of a long tailed cat in a room full of rocking chairs being thrown around by Ballmer.

Policy update to follow in: 3... 2... 1...

Indie Kids

[undulato]

Well, there is no XNA any more but this is still good news for Indies and makes it an attractive platform whether there is additional developer support or not. And I'm sure there will be more announcements coming. When you compare the MS developer relationship to any of the other console producers they still have developer goodwill in the bank.

Genres other than FPS, RTS, and MMORPG

[tepples]

the pc has been out for decades, and decades of openness hasnt provided consumers a better experience than the closed systems

For one thing, not everybody agrees on what constitutes a "better experience". Some people prefer one-button installs (compared to a typical Windows installer "wizard"). Some people prefer not having to mess with third-party antivirus and third-party video card driver updates in addition to operating system updates. Some people don't want a big, noisy tower next to the TV. And some people are fans of genres other than FPS, RTS, and MMORPG. Some genres, such as platformers, fighting games, kart racers, rhythm games, light gun games, and JRPGs, are reportedly far more common on consoles than on PCs.

One day vs. 30

[tepples]

The original intent was to check once a day, not once every 30 days like I'm told Steam does. I can think of a lot of situations where one would lack Internet access for a couple weeks but still be able to play single-player, same-screen multiplayer, and LAN multiplayer games.

Same-screen multiplayer; carrying three tablets

[tepples]

If the XBox or Playstation were open they would just be pretty average, overpriced PCs. But we already have PCs so why would we want that?

People who want a box whose industrial design doesn't stick out like a sore thumb next to a television. People who play games other than FPS and RTS, games whose multiplayer mode uses one screen and up to four gamepads, such as platformers, fighting games, and rhythm games. Multiplayer PC games, on the other hand, have tended to require a separate computer, monitor, OS license, and game license per player.

Why not get an already available Linux tablet?

Because there weren't credible Linux tablets between the release of the original iPad and the release of the Xoom, just as there weren't any credible Linux smartphones between the release of the original iPhone and the release of the HTC Dream. This, combined with delayed availability of Google Checkout (now Google Wallet) in some countries, caused people to end up with a collection of purchased applications and movies that don't transfer to anything but an iPad. Besides, it appears you would prefer having to buy three tablets and carry all three everywhere you go: an iPad for running iOS-exclusive applications, a Surface RT for running Windows Store-exclusive applications, and something else for running Linux-exclusive applications.

realistically we have open alternatives to pretty much everything already.

So what are the open alternatives to AAA games? U.S. copyright law hasn't been as kind to cloners of games (Tetris v. Xio) as it has been to cloners of libraries (Oracle v. Google) and cloners of business applications (Lotus v. Borland).

Re:Same-screen multiplayer; carrying three tablets

[exomondo]

People who want a box whose industrial design doesn't stick out like a sore thumb next to a television.

So like I said, niche. You actually believe that Sony and Microsoft are the only ones capable of an aesthetically pleasing industrial design? Please.

People who play games other than FPS and RTS, games whose multiplayer mode uses one screen and up to four gamepads, such as platformers, fighting games, and rhythm games. Multiplayer PC games, on the other hand, have tended to require a separate computer, monitor, OS license, and game license per player.

You've missed the point, if you want open hardware then - even if they were open - why would you choose the Playstation or XBox? For innovation that requires open hardware you can already do everything on the PC (or perhaps the Ouya). All the things you listed aren't console-exclusive, you can easily do that on the PC.

Because there weren't credible Linux tablets between the release of the original iPad and the release of the Xoom

Read the question you responded to, what you wrote is not an answer to that question.

Besides, it appears you would prefer having to buy three tablets and carry all three everywhere you go: an iPad for running iOS-exclusive applications, a Surface RT for running Windows Store-exclusive applications, and something else for running Linux-exclusive applications.

How is that apparent to you? I don't, and certainly have no reason to do that.

So what are the open alternatives to AAA games?

I'm talking hardware, not games, no reason games have to be open.

Just Stop, NSA Lackeys

[Anonymous Coward]

Nobody over the age of 16 wants your proprietary remote-controlled microphone, video camera, and motion sensor in their homes.

Majority don't give a frak about openness

[tepples]

You actually believe that Sony and Microsoft are the only ones capable of an aesthetically pleasing industrial design?

True, Apple and many local PC builders offer pleasing cases. But do the majority of people think to buy a PC from Apple or from local PC builders? Among PCs sold in Walmart and Best Buy and the like that aren't laptops, most are Big Honkin' Towers.

You've missed the point, if you want open hardware then - even if they were open - why would you choose the Playstation or XBox?

Most people do not care whether the hardware next to the TV is "open". They care whether they can get a particular title and how easy games are to install. People who care about open hardware are a niche.

All the things you listed aren't console-exclusive, you can easily do that on the PC.

Have you any recommendations for good platform fighters (like Power Stone and Smash Bros.) and karaoke games (like Rock Band) on the PC? Let me clarify something up front: Street Fighter series does not count as a "platform fighter" because tactics in a platform fighter involve seeking advantages on uneven terrain.

Why not get an already available Linux tablet?

Because there weren't credible Linux tablets between the release of the original iPad and the release of the Xoom

Read the question you responded to, what you wrote is not an answer to that question.

Then let me be more explicit, phrasing my answer as a complete sentence that quotes part of the question: Someone didn't "get an already available Linux tablet" because he bought a tablet prior to the wide availability of Linux tablets and didn't want to buy a second tablet.

Besides, it appears you would prefer having to buy three tablets and carry all three everywhere you go

How is that apparent to you? I don't

I can't think of a better way to have both an open tablet and a tablet that runs the one must-have application that's exclusive to a not-open tablet.

Re:Majority don't give a frak about openness

[exomondo]

Sorry I won't bother with the rest of your post since it seems we are clearly both on different paths but given this line "People who care about open hardware are a niche." we are both arguing the same thing. I'm not interested in what games are available where (because that availability isn't a technical limitation), my point is that very few people care about about open-ness and for those few who do there isn't really any reason to choose a console over a PC because for all the the things that open-ness makes possible a PC is going to be a better choice anyway.

Too little too late

[Anonymous Coward]

They've already put themselves in 4th place this generation, i've already bought: WiiU and Ouya, PS4 is on preorder and XBone will be last on the list until a price drop 2-3 years from now.