Slashdot Mirror
Second SFO Disaster Avoided Seconds Before Crash
sabri writes "On July 25th, flight EVA28, a Boeing 777 flying from Taiwan to SFO, was on the final approach for runway 28L when they were alerted by ATC that they were only at 600ft above the ground at less than 4NM from the threshold. SFO's tower directed the flight crew to climb immediately and declare missed approach. Assuming they were flying at 140 knots (typical approach speed of a 777), they were less than 2 minutes from the runway and at a 3 degree angle (approx 500ft/min descent), about a minute from impact. This is the same type of aircraft and runway used by the crashed Asiana flight. Similar weather conditions and awfully similar flight path. Is there a structural problem with computer-aided pilot's ability to fly visual approaches?"
Clearly he learned so much from his last flight
"Is there a structural problem with computer-aided pilot's ability to fly visual approaches?"
No, Just Pilot error. The 777 has constantly landed at SFO everyday for years without issue and the cause of the Asiana has been well-documented.
copy paste from a forum poster at the link:
=====
@ Roly final thought
By LW on Sunday, Jul 28th 2013 15:45Z
+++Failure to use all available aids, even during a routine VFR approach is a crew or training issue.+++
=====
Planes don't fly themselves... yet. An experienced and attentive pilot is still necessary, who'd have thought?
In short, no, there is not. There is a problem with the airline putting inexperienced dumbasses in the left seat to save money.
Is there a structural problem with computer-aided pilot's ability to fly visual approaches?
Parse fail. I've even had my 3 cups of coffee and I got nothin'.
is to ban all airplanes. Because of the children.
Time for a 500 post thread saying the same 3 things:
1) I am not a pilot but here is why the pilot was wrong
2) There is a problem with Asian pilots since they weren't loved enough by their mothers
3) Hey don't be racist, Asians are just good at different things than Americans
That would be nm. NM is Nautical Mile.
If I have been able to see further than others, it is because I bought a pair of binoculars.
Yes, they were below the glidepath, and yes they blew the approach and had to go around: but this is hardly seconds from disaster or even a close thing. 600' at a normal approach speed is not "close" to the ground and 3.8 NM is more than 3 minutes at Vref which is certainly adequate time to respond.
These kinds of things happen and the only reason we're even hearing about this one is that it happened at SFO 28L.
I expected a little less sensationalism and a lot more intelligence from slashdot.
Yeah, but ATC had to tell the crew, "hey dude", you are coming in too low. This is good of the tower to give them that help, but it is like your passenger calling out to you that you are about to drive off the road -- it is really the pilot's/driver's responsibility to stay on path. If your passengers are calling out warnings of impending crashes to you, you might want to better look where you are going.
So the LDA is OTS at SFO and the FAA published RNAV PRM for SOIA. TTL that ATC stepped in or EVA28 would have been SOL and all passengers DOA.
Is it just my observation, or are there way too many stupid people in the world?
I suggest you read this post from a former UAL Pilot and Flight instructor for Asiana:
http://originalforum.justhelicopters.com/DisplayThread.asp?BD=2020564&Page=1&ForumID=23&msgid=2020564&OM=2020564&Return=DisplayThread.asp&D83jsd=True
In short, the culture in SE Asia produces pilots who are well trained to operate an aircraft as a piece of Machinery, however are unable to "Fly".
When asked what happened, the pilot stated "As you Americans say, I fucked up."
responding to my own post because I looked at the data.
At 1500 feet they were descending at 2220 feet per minute. I assume this is when ATC freaked out. By 800 feet they were 'only' descending at a rate of 1920 feet per minute. By 600 feet they were still descending at 420 feet per minute. The next measure they were still at 600 feet but ascending at 900 feet per minute. So somewhere between 600 feet and going down and 600 feet and going up, they were below 600 feet. The data resolution is every 15 seconds, so roughly speaking they probably hit 500 feet on the way down.
Assuming the decrease from 2200 FPM to 1920 FPM is the first indication of a correction, it took them 1000' of altitude to correct their rate.
So, based on their initial rate of 2200 FPM and a 500 foot "cushion", it looks like they had 13 seconds "extra" to spare, and at that we need to figure in how much higher the transponder is than the landing gear and figure in wave height. Somebody buy that ATC a beer (after work).
My God, it's Full of Source!
OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
No, not at all. There are Category IIIb approaches in the US, which is an autoland and rollout.
Sorry, but I learned to fly at San Carlos airport (next to Redwood Shores, right adjacent to SFO airport and airspace) so I know a little bit of flying AND the area. I cannot see anything "unsafe" in the approach to SFO. Ofc I don't fly a "heavy", so if a pilot of one of those wants to disagree I'll bow to superior knowledge. But as long as there is no ("heavy") pilot who disagrees I'll say the only thing a LITTLE bit difficult is the approach over water.
However, even that is not an issue, you should have learned an easy way to track the point where you are going to touch down without ANY technical aids (we are talking visual approaches here, and visibility is near perfect in that area almost most of the time, esp. during the day): Keep your head in a position that you can easily remember and fix a point on the runway over a fixed point in front of you inside the airplane. When you look from your fixed head position over the fixed point inside the cockpit to the point on the runway it should not move. If it does (up or down) you are going to over- or under-shoot. That works independent of what the actual sink rate and speed (ergo the angle) is, always.
But then, my very own flight instructor later asked ME to demonstrate when I went on to learn aerobatics (i.e. "real flying") - turned out the "professional" pilots hardly ever do anything but "straight & level". Also, 5000 hours does not seem a lot if most of it is spent not just "straight and level", under computer control, and "at altitude". Only while maneuvering, incl. take off and landing, do you exercise flying skills. I said "flying skills", piloting skills include a lot more of course, from talking to ATC to calculating course, fuel, etc. etc. What those "professionals" seem to lack is good old FLYING SKILLS. It may sound strange from a lowly "small airplane pilot", but when I read that that Air France flight from Brazil went down because the pilots wanted to pull up when the airplane was in a stall (or close) - FOR MINUTES!!! - I really couldn't believe it - with some solid (small airplane!) training every pilot knows that you can never, ever pull UP to get out of trouble unless you have excess speed to trade for.
That doesn't mean I could fly a big airplane (wouldn't even be able to start it I guess), but while it does not matter to anyone that I lack the skills to fly a big airplane it matters to all passengers if the pilots cannot FLY (not "pilot") their airplane. I mean "fly" as in "without computer".
Is there an airline pilot here? I'm curious, what would you say about the FLYING skills of (big airplane) pilots? It seems that in the US the situation isn't bad, that this is an Asian (or Korean?) problem, and as I read it in an aviation forum not necessarily one of culture (at least not any more) but of many variables, including how easy it is for a lot of people to get to fly privately in the US vs. small countries like S.Korea, so that when a S.Korean wants to become a pilot they start from zero and do the training with an eye on the cockpit jobs (ASAP ofc, time is money), so no time/resources to do "fun flying" (like acro, which really, really teaches to fly). Then there's that even if you go into the job with good skills, how much is left after 10 years of mostly computer-aided careful "by the book" flying? How many pilots keep their (low-level) flying skills sharp by flying a small airplane in their spare time, to do "fun stuff" and "unusual attitudes and maneuverer"?
No dependency on computers necessary for people to do stupid things. We blame automation but incompetence, failure to follow procedures, complacency, and dysfunctional cultural norms (ethnic or professional) are often a major contributor to disasters.
At a desert oil production station (Gialo) in Libya in the 80's a pilot crashed an LAA F27 passenger plane carrying field workers when he attempted a landing on the old runway instead of the new one.
The day was perfectly clear: not a cloud in the sky. Visibility was extremely good. Virtually no wind.
The old runway had been dusted over with crushed white Saharan calichi which made it fade into the surrounding background of light tan hardpan and sand. To further discourage use of the old runway, loads of rock had been dumped in piles down the centre end to end.
The new runway was inline with and off the end of the old. Brand spanking new asphalt, black as midnight, complete with high contrast runway markings and looking like big black stripe on a pale background. A blindman in a snowstorm could not miss the dang thing; it fairly screamed LAND HERE.
The NOTAMs were updated properly and anyone flying into Gialo would see the runway info as the first item.
Nonetheless, the pilot made his usual approach over the station like he had done many many times previous and did not realize the mistake until he was just about to touch down. Pulled up but a wheel caught a rock pile and he pranged the nose into the old strip. Go figure.
No one was killed and as far as I saw, they all walked off. One fella (a Brit of some flavour) had been sleeping and stepped out saying 'What's all the fuss about?". We turned him about and, gazing at the bent props, crushed nose and broken gear, he said: "Felt like a regular landing to me."
If you're having to check the high water times when landing a 777, you're probably doing it wrong! But just to be on the safe side, I'm going to start check the Southampton airport QNH when I go sailing.