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Def Con Hackers On Whether They'd Work For the NSA
Daniel_Stuckey writes "Premier hacker conference Def Con, which just wrapped up its 21st year, played host to security professionals who all had very different opinions on what the NSA is up to. In fact, the only thing everyone could agree on is that the PRISM revelations came as no surprise. Even if it isn't news to this crowd, it is still a significant development in the general climate of government surveillance and national security. And at Def Con, where government recruitment was hampered this year by conference founder Jeff Moss's requesting that feds stay away, it seemed like a good idea to walk around asking people if they would still want to work for the NSA."
Is continuing Edward Snowden's great work.
"Hey, you, geek. We've got cash, huge fucking computers, and it's totally legal* to hack whoever you want. You in?"
I'm inclined to guess that, between the people who love toys or have mortgages and the people who think that the NSA is A-OK(tm), they aren't too worried(plus, if your area of expertise or interest is something related to data mining, the NSA might count as honest work compared to, say, Facebook)...
If so, count me in.
Despite opinions on ethics for or against, the NSA is still widely considered to have interesting technologies to play with and viewed as leaders in computer system security development. I'm in IT because I love problem solving and the adrenaline rush of having to solve difficult problems under pressure. The responsibility of my job comes first. The only ethical dilemma for me is if someone with authority were to ask me to let a system fail to prove some kind of point.
There is or can be built a machine that can simulate any physical object. -Church-Turing principle
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UrOZllbNarw
Work for the NSA, doing what? The NSA does more than one thing. I'd be more than happy to work on developing next-generation crypto algorithms, for example. There is probably some work at the NSA that's compatible with my view of the law and common decency -- and much that is not.
[Sir Garlon] is the marvellest knight that is now living, for he destroyeth many good knights, for he goeth invisible.
It's not so bad. I'm a chemist and work for the EPA in groundwater study of karst areas. It's such a niche field there is virtually no chance of getting a job outside of the government and it's stable, even with the sequester.
...heavy bureaucracy, political infighting, mediocre employees. It's just unattractive all around.
How is that different from the private sector?
Learning HOW to think is more important than learning WHAT to think.
The NSA does introspection?
“He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
It's harder to get fired...
“He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
Working for government agencies is widely reported to be sucky for a variety of reasons: lower pay than the private sector, heavy bureaucracy, political infighting, mediocre employees. It's just unattractive all around.
I'm a state employee (state university), not a federal one. But here's my counterpoint to your (valid) points.
Pay is definitely lower, but the benefits (vacation days, retirement, etc.) are often better. The overall workplace pressure is often less. And, as in the private sector, the "quality" of your coworkers really varies from one group to another - so it's not a given you'll only be working with "mediocre employees".
#DeleteChrome
Like most things, it boils down to who you work for, not where you work.
(And private sector employees don't have their friends and family scrutinizing everything they do because "my taxes pay you". . . . . . So there's that)
states secret
Hackers no more or less ethical or principled than other people. Make violating other people's rights interesting or profitable and it will be done.
The NSA also does a lot of basic research, especially in mathematics related to code breaking. IIRC it employs more mathematicians as a job title than any other organization in the country. That environment would be ideal to the academically oriented types who just want to ponder number theory all day long.
"No one was surprised" is such an elitist and immature statement. Millions of people across the country were VERY surprised by this. There's a big difference between believing in something and having proof of something. "Oh, that doesn't surprise me" is the equivalent of "I told you so!" after the facts are revealed. And its a worthless statement anyway, because it doesn't make one bit of difference if anyone was surprised. It doesn't change what's going on.
The NSA does introspection?
If the recent reports that they can search a substantial percentage of the planet's internet activity; but not their own mailserver are accurate, I'd be inclined to go with "Apparently not".
Snowden should have downloaded the files on all the congresscritters, senior staff, all federal judges and clerks and the entire executive branch and released that.
I'm guessing at least half have some sort of dirt in their files that make them less then completely independent.
There is still hope. He might have all that dirt in his encrypted life insurance.
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
...just long enough.
[...] I'm a chemist and work for the EPA in groundwater study of karst areas. [...]
So you get paid to go cave diving? Nice!
Breathe continuously
Snowden should have downloaded the files on all the congresscritters, senior staff, all federal judges and clerks and the entire executive branch and released that.
I'm guessing at least half have some sort of dirt in their files that make them less then completely independent.
There is still hope. He might have all that dirt in his encrypted life insurance.
I'm guessing they at least think he has something like that, considering the nigh unanimous calls for his blood.
An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
Working for government agencies is widely reported to be sucky for a variety of reasons: lower pay than the private sector, heavy bureaucracy, political infighting, mediocre employees. It's just unattractive all around.
I'm a state employee (state university), not a federal one. But here's my counterpoint to your (valid) points.
Pay is definitely lower, but the benefits (vacation days, retirement, etc.) are often better.
Those benefits are more from working in academia than for the government; I know, I too used to be a state university employee myself.
My pay sucked back then as well, but I admit it sure was nice having just about every damn holiday under the sun off.
An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
Most people I know crow to the fact that they worked in a secure facility or held a clearance or worked on a weapon at the drop of a hat. Hence most people would jump at the opportunity to work for a governmental TLA.
This sig is not paradoxical or ironic.
Yeah, but what about streaking? It's basically not allowed, and I'm quite okay with that, since my freedom to streak is certainly less important than my emotional security of not having to see other people streak.
It's such an over-used quote, really. It might have been more apropo when it was coined, but these days "freedom" increasingly means that the neighbors will be allowed to do the same things, and it is not in fact referring to a country suppressed by a foreign state.
Don't you think that Civil Rights activists gave up some of their freedoms to help ensure security down the road? They may not have thought it at the time, but that's what has happened.
This quote is certainly a great one, but I think it might be time that it got updated to more accurately reflect the position of the average citizen in the 21st Century.
Those who surrender their desire for socio-economic freedom in exchange for the security proposed by those in control deserve neither one.
Someone flopped a steamer in the gene pool.
Really? When I read the statement that "the only thing everyone could agree on is that the PRISM revelations came as no surprise", my first thought was "Yeah, I bet all the DEFCON guys said they weren't surprised -- but that's because they'd come off looking like an ignorant newbie if they said they were surprised. They want to appear like they know whats going on - that they have secret knowledge, that they're one step ahead of everyone because it makes them look like experts. To admit that they were surprised by the PRISM revelations, it makes them look like ignorant novices - something that they'd never want to do in front of their fellow hackers." I read it as a statement of immature posing, or (perhaps more generously) a statement indicative of their general paranoia.
If its a good salary, sure.
---- Booth was a patriot ----
what with the week protections the usa has for workers I doubt that
Yeah, it's one thing to be righteously fighting for principles against the Man, but it's a whole different ball game when you got mouths to feed. Or an fresh, empty resume to build. Or a mountain of loans to pay. Then you can't be so picky when trying to secure a decent source of income.
and you sell out your kids freedom/future for the next paycheck then yes, you are right. Thank god my mom wasn't a pussy like you and fought for freedom in Poland where she ended up in Goldap http://ipn.gov.pl/en/news/2008/women-in-internment.-goldap-1982-bialystok,-december-10,
by TheSpoom (715771) Uncaring Linux user here. I have nothing to add to this but please continue. *munches popcorn*
I'm sure it's the same everywhere there's a nuclear reactor, it needs to be maintained on a yearly cycle.
In this area a person used to make very good money being used for their exposure. You go .03 Sv). At which time your let go as it's
in do a job until you reach your weekly radiation limit (300 mrem / 3 mSv), then do nothing until
you are usable again; for a yearly limit of (3 rad /
temporary work which your not able to perform any more.
These temporary jobs were during the summer outages and lasted a few months.
with the chance it could become a permanent position, which many did.
Would you work for NSA if the money was very good, as opposed to being used for your exposure at a nuclear
plant that produced Plutonium for intent of blowing people up? If you needed work be it temporary or a job with a substantial
increase in your income, I'm sure a lot would.
Sure, as a rule congresspeople vote the bills the way their campaign contributors request. So we throw the bums out, then what? The next group of candidates will all be pre-selected to dance to the same tune before they even make it to the primaries.
We need ideas for an alternative, some way we can subvert the existing system to bring it back under our control, because as I see it the "default options" down the road we're on are jack-booted tyranny or violent rebellion with indeterminate results, and frankly neither one appeals to me.
--- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
Well, I would think if they really want you to work for them, they will be pretty convincing that you will want to work for them
In the cafeteria.
More 'secret sauce' on that burger, sir?
Have gnu, will travel.
Fnord.
"At the end of the day, there is no freedom, anyway," he said. "I need to pay my mortgage, I need to feed my family. Guys living in the bushes might be better off, but is that even freedom? Who knows. Here, have a beer. I'm off."
I live in constant fear of the Coming of the Red Spiders.
I've never worked for the NSA, so I don't **know**, but I have worked at the NASA-JSC government installation and lived on many military bases.
I've also interviewed for a number of private-sector, DoD-like positions.
Some of these jobs were extremely flexible. We worked our own hours, but had to be available 24/7. The bosses knew we'd cover important events, meetings, and gave us the flexibility.
At other jobs, desktop types doing programming, we had to clock in by 8am and take no more than 60 minute lunches. The boss was a tirant - because he didn't know how to do it any other way.
BTW, I've worked at Loral, Lockheed-Martin, IBM, and 6 other companies on government contracts.
6 yrs later, I interviewed at a different Lockheed-Martin facility. The boss was clueless about technology, so he concentrated on telling me all the ways I'd be fired - "escorted out of the building" - was the term he used over and over. "Shift starts at 7:30a. Being late is not allowed." It started there and continued for 5 minutes on all the rules. Two weeks later, the same man called back wanting to know when I could start. I said, "Never. Hostile work environments aren't cool." It would have been a cool job - F22 flight testing stuff, but the boss would have driven me crazy. ... in my 40s.
I've never regretted NOT taking that position. The job I did take, telecom, changed my life and I'm retired now
Different government jobs are very different. The NSA might be good OR terrible. Hard to say. I wouldn't risk it.