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GNUstep Kickstarter Campaign Launched

Posted by Unknown on from the will-code-for-crowdfunds dept.

borgheron writes "A maintainer of GNUstep has launched a Kickstarter campaign to get the resources needed to make GNUstep more complete and bring the implementation to API compatibility with Mac OS X 10.6's Cocoa. This will allow applications for Mac OS X to run on GNU/Linux with a simple recompile using new tools developed by the GNUstep team to directly build from xcodeproj project files. If the Kickstarter project is funded beyond its $50,000 goal, it's possible that WebKit and Darling might also be completed allowing applications built on Mac OS X to run without the need for a recompile... think WINE-like functionality for Mac OS X applications on other platforms... including Windows, Linux, BSD, etc." GNUStep is pretty useful now, but increased coverage of newer Cocoa APIs would be nice, and Darling in particular is interesting by providing a portable Mach-O binary loader.

97 of 131 comments (clear)

  1. Photoshop in Linux? by bejiitas_wrath · · Score: 2

    Does this mean that we could run the Adobe suite on Linux? Maybe Dreamweaver as well? Or is this a hopeless dream. Anything is better than having to use the Mac OSX Finder.

    --
    liberare massarum ex ignorantia, clausa descendit molestie.
    1. Re:Photoshop in Linux? by Geeky · · Score: 2

      Unlikely, the market just isn't big enough.

      Photoshop and Lightroom would be nice. I use a Mac because I need the Adobe suite and prefer the unix underpinnings of OSX to Windows (to be honest, having used all three - Windows, OSX and Linux - for a number of reasons I'm now happy on OSX).

      Not so sure about Dreamweaver. I use it, since it's part of my Creative Cloud subscription and saved me searching out an alternative, but I'm sure there are plenty of better options.

      --
      Sigs are so 1990s. No way would I be seen dead with one.
    2. Re:Photoshop in Linux? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

      Download Photoshop here http://gimp.org/

    3. Re:Photoshop in Linux? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

      All I'm getting is Paint.NET there.

    4. Re:Photoshop in Linux? by TheRaven64 · · Score: 5, Informative

      No. If there were a market for a Linux build of Photoshop, then Adobe would find it much easier to port the Windows version with WINE than the OS X version with GNUstep (and I say this as a GNUstep developer). Applications like OmniGraffle, however, would be easier to port. I think we already implement most of what OmniGraffle needs, but there are lots of missing bits of APIs. I have a Summer of Code student who is working on getting the CoreAnimation / CoreGraphics stuff integrated (our current GUI code uses the NeXT DisplayPostscript APIs) which should help with a lot of things.

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    5. Re:Photoshop in Linux? by psergiu · · Score: 1

      This means being able to run MS Office and iTunes - both of which are non-AppStore applications which can be downloaded separately and could be run with 10.6 compatibility.

      Or, if you install-it on a PowerPC Linux machine, you would even be able to run IE5 :-)

      --
      1% APY, No fees, Online Bank https://captl1.co/2uIErYq Don't let your $$$ sit in a no-interest acct.
    6. Re:Photoshop in Linux? by morgauxo · · Score: 4, Informative

      "it's possible that WebKit and Darling might also be completed allowing applications built on Mac OS X to run without the need for a recompile..."

      And that was just the summary, I didn't even have to rtfa to get that!!!

    7. Re:Photoshop in Linux? by WillAdams · · Score: 2

      MS Office and iTunes are both Carbon apps, not Cocoa --- GNUstep is only targeting the NeXTstep-derived OPENSTEP-equiv frameworks, so only Cocoa apps need apply --- there aren't as many as one would think, and that's a shame.

      --
      Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
    8. Re:Photoshop in Linux? by westlake · · Score: 2

      Download Photoshop here http://gimp.org/

      To a geek there is no joke too old and stale not to get a laugh.

    9. Re:Photoshop in Linux? by SeaFox · · Score: 1

      Does this mean that we could run the Adobe suite on Linux? Maybe Dreamweaver as well? Or is this a hopeless dream. Anything is better than having to use the Mac OSX Finder.

      IIRC, Photoshop at least still uses Carbon to run. This is why Adobe threw such a big fit when Apple originally talked about not taking Carbon 64-bit and expecting everyone to transition to Cocoa.

  2. Well, someone has to ask... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    What the hell is a GNUstep, and why should I be supporting it?

    1. Re:Well, someone has to ask... by mlk · · Score: 5, Informative

      NeXTSTEP was one of the many closed source OSes kicking about in the early 80s to mid-90s. When Steve Jobs returned to Apple he turned NeXTSTEP into MacOS X.
      GNUStep is an open source API based on the NeXTSTEP API.

      Why should you support it? If you really really want MacOS X software Y this will make porting it to your-OS-of-choice a lot easier.

      --
      Wow, I should not post when knackered.
    2. Re:Well, someone has to ask... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      Yes, Apple was bought by NeXT for -429 M dollar and -1.5 M Apple shares.

      Apple is a continuation of NeXT, we know this because the CEO of NeXT was the same person as the CEO of Apple after the takeover of Apple by NeXT.
      And OS X is a continuation of NeXTSTEP, we know this because the class names of the API still start with the letters "NS".

    3. Re:Well, someone has to ask... by Arker · · Score: 1

      I do not care for OSX software and cant think of any that I would want ported off the top of my head. (I am sure there must be some that would be useful, possibly even to me if I thought about it, just saying it isnt something I worry about.) But I loved GNUStep and mourned the way that the developers years back all seem to have switched over to bloated nasty frameworks from GNOME and KDE instead of fleshing it out and finishing it.

      The only concern I have is they do seem to be looking at it more as a framework for porting, which is the least important use from my perspective. This is the tool to build the better desktop on linux everyone claims to want.

      --
      =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
      Friends don't let friends enable ecmascript.
    4. Re:Well, someone has to ask... by TheRaven64 · · Score: 2

      The only concern I have is they do seem to be looking at it more as a framework for porting, which is the least important use from my perspective. This is the tool to build the better desktop on linux everyone claims to want.

      GNUstep aims to implement the APIs that Cocoa uses. This has a natural use as a porting tool, but the main reason we're implementing the APIs is that we want to use them (which has the unfortunate side effect that ones we don't like tend not to be implemented quickly, even if lots of OS X code uses them). Over in Étoilé (which, no doubt, Slashdot's early-'90s character encoding support will mangle: Etoile with accents on both 'e's) we're building frameworks for building better environments, some of which also work on OS X and some of which don't.

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    5. Re:Well, someone has to ask... by unixisc · · Score: 3, Interesting

      NeXTstep - on those black workstations - was the first UNIX workstation that I found a breeze to use in college - in sharp contrast to either the vt100 terminals w/ SunOS C-shell prompts, or X-terminals running - at the time - either Openlook or DECwindows. I could log into my UNIX account on a NeXT, and then either do my assignments, or be on Usenet. Somehow, it wasn't as easy on other UNIX terminals.

      For this reason, I'd root for NEXTSTEP to be a common OS across UNIXstations, and that looked like it might happen when Sun & HP both had projects porting NEXTSTEP to the SparcStations and HP-9000 workstations. But before that could really go far, NeXT got acquired by Apple, and so that idea went away.

      GNUSTEP is a way to get that dream on to any platform. GNUSTEP is OpenStep, as implemented by the GNU project. It is FOSS, and therefore, it could theoretically be ported to any platform, giving it a usable UI. The project, as w/ most FOSS ones, had been languishing, but if there is a company that drives it, it could well make some important inroads and improvements in the FOSS world. Particularly be a good alternative to KDE in the marketplace. Also, while there are X based desktop managers like WindowMaker or AfterStep, making something like GNUSTEP would enable the environment to be ported and run on any platform, regardless of whether it has X or not. One may not even need Wayland or Mir.

      The biggest reason to promote this is to recreate the paradigm of RAD, but on FOSS platforms, making them more viable for businesses to adapt. Today, the main roadblock to FOSS is the lack of applications, and also the fact that one would have to hire a staff of experts to have a proper platform for the corporate environment. With something like GNUSTEP, the level of expertise required could be more on the higher levels of application development.

      Once such a platform is there, it would also be easier to develop cross platform applications, and make organizations less dependent on one type of hardware or another.

    6. Re:Well, someone has to ask... by unixisc · · Score: 1

      Slashdot didn't mangle them - how did you manage that? More importantly, what characters does /. support - just ASCII?

    7. Re: Well, someone has to ask... by morgauxo · · Score: 1

      "And then realize that the target for API completeness is two versions, now almost three, behind where OSX is today."

      I really doubt anybody would go through all that work of targeting 10.6 and then never touch it again.

      No doubt if they were getting close to meeting that target there would be a new target with a newer version. The thing with clone libraries like these (such as Wine) is that it isn't practical to target the latest version. You don't really get to start working on targeting a new version until the company who's libraries you are cloning releases them so you are always at a disadvantage. It's better to just aim for something recent enough that it can run a significant amount of still-relevant software but plan to always be a bit behind.

    8. Re:Well, someone has to ask... by jcr · · Score: 1

      NS stands for Next/Sun.

      Well, that depends on who you ask. NeXT never made any official statement on what the "NS" prefix stands for, and I remember being told that it stood for "NeXT/Sun", "NextStep", and "Neat Stuff" by different people.

      -jcr

      --
      The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
    9. Re:Well, someone has to ask... by UnknowingFool · · Score: 1

      What's the difference between GNUStep and Darwin? I assume GNUStep will be attempting to emulate the OSX system libraries and GUI that Darwin lacks.

      --
      Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
    10. Re:Well, someone has to ask... by tepples · · Score: 1

      It appears Slashdot supports ISO 8859-1, plus the euro sign, possibly minus a few characters. It used to be possible to use numeric character references until Slashdot killed that due to abuse by vandals.

    11. Re:Well, someone has to ask... by ceoyoyo · · Score: 1

      GNUStep is a free, cross platform reimplementation of the NeXT/OS X GUI toolkit. Darwin is the open source kernel and command line userspace of OS X.

    12. Re: Well, someone has to ask... by smash · · Score: 3, Insightful

      And then realize that the target for API completeness is two versions, now almost three, behind where OSX is today.

      SO you mean, about 15 years ahead of where KDE and Gnome are today? I'm not actually trolling here. This is where NEXT application development was in 1992.

      --
      I run: Windows, OS X, Linux, FreeBSD. Just because you have a hammer, doesn't mean everything is a nail.
    13. Re:Well, someone has to ask... by maccodemonkey · · Score: 5, Informative

      NeXTSTEP was one of the many closed source OSes kicking about in the early 80s to mid-90s. When Steve Jobs returned to Apple he turned NeXTSTEP into MacOS X.
      GNUStep is an open source API based on the NeXTSTEP API.

      Kind of, this simplifies things a bit...

      When Steve Jobs was at NeXT, the programming interfaces were standardized and turned into an open specification that any platform could implemented. This was called OpenStep. There were several implementations of OpenStep. OpenStep for Mach was what NeXTStep morphed into after the specification was released. Sun shipped a version of OpenStep for Solaris. A Windows NT port was created called OpenStep Enterprise. And then finally for Linux the GNUStep project was created (GNUStep actually started a bit before the OpenStep specification was released).

      So while NeXTStep was mostly (not entirely) closed, the entire API around it was designed to be open and implemented on different platforms. GNUStep is the project to implement the open spec on Linux, still going long after that spec got wrapped into OS X and unstandardized.

      There was a time that Apple considered still running with the ideas behind OpenStep. It was called Rhapsody, and it had both a full operating system that ran on both Intel and PowerPC hardware, and an environment for Windows NT and legacy Mac OS. For whatever political reasons this project didn't work out (Adobe and Microsoft had particularly strong objections to having to port to OpenStep.)

      Short version: Things are a little more complicated than NeXTStep being "closed source."

    14. Re: Well, someone has to ask... by tarzeau · · Score: 1
      That's absolutely right, even today, GNUstep is 15 years ahead of KDE(qt) and GNOME(gtk). Look at the API's, try to write one single graphical app with qt or gtk. Compare the lines of code and time compared to develop the same graphical application made with GNUstep (or Xcode on Mac OS X) using the Cocoa API (which is nothing else but Foundation Kit and Application Kit).

      It isn't faster to code on NeXTstep; you just have to write less of it. The revolution is "getting rid of software". -- http://www.paullynch.org/NeXTSTEP/Savoy.1992.htmld/

      --
      Windoze not found: (C)heer, (P)arty or (D)ance
    15. Re:Well, someone has to ask... by dos1 · · Score: 2

      "free unlike Qt"

      Are you from the past?

    16. Re:Well, someone has to ask... by ceoyoyo · · Score: 1

      I am pleasantly surprised to see that QT was LGPL licensed in 2009. Before that it was GPL, which is really an exceedingly poor option for a GUI toolkit, unless your goal is to sell commercial licenses (which it was).

      Sorry for not checking the QT website constantly.

    17. Re:Well, someone has to ask... by smash · · Score: 1

      Is Etoile still actively developed? The news page last i checked was quite out of date, but I'm keen to see the end result...

      --
      I run: Windows, OS X, Linux, FreeBSD. Just because you have a hammer, doesn't mean everything is a nail.
    18. Re:Well, someone has to ask... by smash · · Score: 1

      GNUstep is NOT a GUI toolkit. GNUstep is an application development framework including an Objective-C runtime. There is a difference.

      --
      I run: Windows, OS X, Linux, FreeBSD. Just because you have a hammer, doesn't mean everything is a nail.
    19. Re:Well, someone has to ask... by TheRaven64 · · Score: 1

      Yes, we had a DevMeeting in Cambridge last month. Lots of progress on LanguageKit, CoreObject and EtoileUI, not much progress on a web site that doesn't suck...

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    20. Re:Well, someone has to ask... by mlk · · Score: 1

      But is an good cross platform API a reason for Joe User to kick start it? I don't think it is, which is why I did not include it in my OP.

      --
      Wow, I should not post when knackered.
    21. Re:Well, someone has to ask... by smash · · Score: 1

      Excellent to hear. But yeah, the site as it stands looks like there was a flurry of development up to about 12-18 months ago and then.... nothing (I've been lurking around the site every so often for a couple of years now keeping an eye on it).

      Even a few token updates like "yeah we're still alive, busy working on Etoile!" would be great though, because the site does look like a bit of a dead project.

      I'll try and allocate some time to check it out. :)

      --
      I run: Windows, OS X, Linux, FreeBSD. Just because you have a hammer, doesn't mean everything is a nail.
    22. Re:Well, someone has to ask... by smash · · Score: 1

      Darwin is a kernel and base OS. GNUStep is a development framework and objective-c runtime environment. GNUstep is to Unix as say, webkit or blink is to Safari or Chrome. The collection of libraries an application programmer can use to do desktop application type stuff. Not just GUI widgets, in OS X land, the equivalent includes stuff like location services, animation, PDF, etc.

      --
      I run: Windows, OS X, Linux, FreeBSD. Just because you have a hammer, doesn't mean everything is a nail.
    23. Re:Well, someone has to ask... by TheRaven64 · · Score: 1

      Yup, I agree. I started writing a blog post about the DevMeeting, but didn't get around to posting it - I should soon. For reference, Ohloh has some pretty activity graphs.

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
  3. Why bother? by zoffdino · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Why bother duplicating the exact functionality of a commercial software, only for it to be labelled open source? Are they doing this for only open-source sake? Mac OS X is certified UNIX, and with some care, applications cab easily be made to compilable on multiple Linux distros. GUI application is an entirely different matter, but there are cross-platform solutions like Qt, GTK, Java swing, etc. There are lots of technologies that are encumbered by patents in Mac OS X, like Time Machine, Core Image, or QTKit. And how the hell will GNUStep enable integration with iCloud for those applications that use it?

    1. Re:Why bother? by The1stImmortal · · Score: 2

      While OSX is "certified UNIX", there's a lot of proprietary APIs and libraries layered on top of that to produce the GUI environment most OSX users interact with.

      So the "With some care" you speak of to make "applications [...] easily be made to compilable on multiple Linux distros" includes a working implementation of those proprietary APIs and libraries. GNUStep is that, though it's currently more like OSX ancestor NeXTSTEP than it is like modern OSX

      Hence the kickstarter

    2. Re:Why bother? by we3 · · Score: 2

      I'll take a quick stab at answering your question.

      They're not trying to duplicate Mac OS X. The project started before that, to clone nextstep, or the api's at least, which were at one point being billed as a cross platform framework called openstep.

      I assume these guys liked Objective-C(which came from nextstep) and liked openstep and you know then the whole thing took on a life of its own.

      Now they could stick with the state of openstep when NeXT shutdown, or they could go off on thier own, or they could bring in the new stuff from Mac OS X(which is descended from nextstep).

      They seem to want to the last one.

    3. Re:Why bother? by zoffdino · · Score: 2

      Like I mentioned, you won't get Cocoa framework on GNUStep anytime soon. If you write a command line app, keep yourself to C or C++, and don't touch any of the Apple's proprietary frameworks, you can port your application to most Linux and BSD distros. If there are apps important enough for you and they are only available on Mac OS X, then get a Mac. Consider that a cost of doing business; charge your client more to cover your costs.

      GUI is a different matter, but there are cross platform frameworks available. You don't have to use Cocoa. And I seriously doubt you can get anywhere near the Mac OS X look-and-feel without getting sued by Apple

    4. Re:Why bother? by unixisc · · Score: 1

      If it was just for FOSS sake, it might be questionable, but there is a good precedence for why it should exist. When NEXT got acquired by Apple, NEXTSTEP disappeared after a while, since they were now working on OS-X. Had there been no GNUSTEP, that whole thing could have been lost. Of course, there are big differences b/w the NEXTSTEP UI vs that of OS-X, and GNUSTEP is expected to look more like the former, w/ some improvements from OS-X made optional.

      Mac OS X is certified UNIX, but one would have to either buy Apple hardware, or pull off tricks like Hackintosh, if one wants to run it on, say, Dell hardware. But more importantly, let's say that an organization likes this, and would like to run it on some SPARC servers. Or Itanium. With OS-X, it's out of the question. But w/ GNUSTEP, they can take the code, port it to their favored platform, and then run it there, and get the best of both worlds.

    5. Re:Why bother? by unixisc · · Score: 1

      They could offer a choice of UIs here - either the old NEXTSTEP UI, at the time of NEXTSTEP 3.3 or 3.4, or they could offer something like OS-X. Or even something like Étoilé

    6. Re:Why bother? by Bill_the_Engineer · · Score: 1

      Qt is proprietary

      QT is dual licensed as commercial and LGPL.

      --
      These comments are my own and do not necessarily reflect the views or opinions of my employer or colleagues...
    7. Re:Why bother? by TheRaven64 · · Score: 1

      Like I mentioned, you won't get Cocoa framework on GNUStep anytime soon

      That makes no sense at all. GNUstep is an open source implementation of the Cocoa framework.

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    8. Re:Why bother? by TheRaven64 · · Score: 2

      GNUstep started to implement the OpenStep specification, which was a public spec for portable application development and was implemented by NeXT and Sun (hence the NS prefix on all of the class names). The most popular implementation of OpenStep is called Cocoa, and includes a lot of extensions to the base spec. We try to implement these extensions as well.

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    9. Re:Why bother? by borgheron · · Score: 1

      I'll take a quick stab at answering your question.

      They're not trying to duplicate Mac OS X. The project started before that, to clone nextstep, or the api's at least, which were at one point being billed as a cross platform framework called openstep.

      I assume these guys liked Objective-C(which came from nextstep) and liked openstep and you know then the whole thing took on a life of its own.

      Now they could stick with the state of openstep when NeXT shutdown, or they could go off on thier own, or they could bring in the new stuff from Mac OS X(which is descended from nextstep).

      They seem to want to the last one.

      We've done the last one for many years now. The issue is that there are very few of us and none of us have the time to work on it full time. What I propose to do is take some time to purely work on GNUstep so that I can bring it up to a standard that everyone can live with and build on.

      --
      Gregory Casamento
      ## Chief Maintainer for GNUstep
  4. Re:Shooting for 10.x? by andreicristianpetcu · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I don't understand the project either. Why would I want to run OS X apps on GNU/Linux? Probably there are a few niches like Photoshop that might want to run them but seriously, how many cool apps are on OS X that NEEEEDDD to run on other OSes? I would like to see more money thrown ant Wine not on GNUStep.

  5. Re:I miss the dock by DMJC · · Score: 1

    With the APIs being completed in GNUstep, including Quartz (called Opal in GNUstep) This becomes VERY possible to make. Once webkit is ported there will actually be a working desktop with browser, video player, music player, irc, terminal. OSX style menus already exist. It would also make it possible to port the quartz composer and related video technologies which remain some of the best video pipelining tools ever made.

  6. Re:GNU Clowns Strikes Again by anchovy_chekov · · Score: 1

    Yeah.. I don't know how I feel about this. I loved NeXT in the day, and GNUStep always seemed like a worthwhile continuation of the OpenStep spec was awesome.. but if I contribute to the Kickstarter campaign I don't know how much it will be out of wanting the project to succeed, or how much from nostalgia.

  7. Re:GNU Clowns Strikes Again by anchovy_chekov · · Score: 1

    Man.. I never seem to be able to proofread my own comments before posting.

  8. Re:Thanks but no thanks by anchovy_chekov · · Score: 1

    But this is the cool bits.. before Apple became the promised land for developers of small and useless applications.

  9. Re:Shooting for 10.x? by cjpa · · Score: 1

    Windowmaker with a modern look&feel. YES PLEASE!!!

  10. Re:Thanks but no thanks by anchovy_chekov · · Score: 1

    Bugger it.. I'm backing it. I actually hope this gets up.

  11. GNUStep is a great project by root_42 · · Score: 2

    I like this campaign. Objective C is continually in the Top 5 of the most widely used languages (http://www.tiobe.com/index.php/content/paperinfo/tpci/index.html). It is a very nice, simple object oriented C dialect. It is used on OS X and iOS, the latter of which is installed on hundreds of millions of devices (http://www.engadget.com/2013/01/23/apple-over-500-million-ios-devices-sold/). Both operating systems heavily utilize Cocoa as their framework

    Having better or even any Cocoa support on Linux would help to get developers to target both world. Linux on the one side, and iOS/OS X on the other side. I think this is well worth for all Linux users to chip in some money (even if it's only $1).

    --
    [--- PGP key and more on http://www.root42.de ---]
    1. Re:GNUStep is a great project by abies · · Score: 1

      If by 'continually in the Top 5' you mean 'already second year in a row in Top 5', then I can agree. But I think that compared to other top-10 languages, 'just very recently became of any importance at all' would be more honest statement.

    2. Re:GNUStep is a great project by borgheron · · Score: 1

      If by 'continually in the Top 5' you mean 'already second year in a row in Top 5', then I can agree. But I think that compared to other top-10 languages, 'just very recently became of any importance at all' would be more honest statement.

      Well, first it's a couple years, then it's a third and a fourth, then it's 20. ;)

      --
      Gregory Casamento
      ## Chief Maintainer for GNUstep
  12. Re:Shooting for 10.x? by Arker · · Score: 1

    Windowmaker yes!

    If "modern look&feel" means what I fear it does, then no way. Windowmaker is perfect the way it is. It just needs the associated system apps finished and polished properly.

    --
    =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
    Friends don't let friends enable ecmascript.
  13. Now this is funny. by unmole · · Score: 1

    "NOTE: Some of the rewards say Linux instead of GNU/Linux. Apologies for the omission." LOL!

  14. Re:I miss the dock by TheRaven64 · · Score: 1

    WindowMaker doesn't use GNUstep and is not a GNUstep project. GNUstep has supported full transparency in applications for a few years.

    --
    I am TheRaven on Soylent News
  15. You're going about it all wrong... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    See, the best way to raise money for a cause is to tug at the hearts of the Apple faithful..

    So:

    "Do it for Steve.
    This is the grandchild of his baby."

     

  16. Re:GNU Clowns Strikes Again by anchovy_chekov · · Score: 1

    Really? You seem to come across as an arse clown - I guess it's just a matter of perspective.

  17. Re:Shooting for 10.x? by tepples · · Score: 1

    Mac users upgrade their os since it is dirt cheap ($30 covers all your macs)

    Mavericks covers all sufficiently recent Macs. Mac mini before "early 2009" need not apply.

  18. Re:Shooting for 10.x? by armanox · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Because a lot of us on Macs are stuck on 10.6 and lots of OS X applications are targeting that group?

    --
    I'm starting to think GNU is the problem with "GNU/Linux" these days.
  19. It's about having free software by ciaran_o_riordan · · Score: 1

    > Are they doing this for only open-source sake?

    They're doing it to have free software that can replace proprietary software. Being free software means the user community knows exactly what the software is doing and can decide how it will be modified.

    Proprietary software locks users in, adds back doors, imposes DRM, gathers personal info and sends it to advertisers, omits features so that users can be pushed to buy the more expensive version, and omits features that users want (i.e. to protect privacy) because the owner has a commercial relationship with advertisers, and other nasty things that users don't ask for.

    So it's not about "open source", but yes, it's about the distribution model. More specifically, "free software".
    https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/open-source-misses-the-point.html

    --
    Expert in software patents or patent law? Contribute to the ESP wiki!
  20. GNU/ to distinguish from Android by tepples · · Score: 2

    Is Android "Linux"? Yes; it uses the Linux kernel. Is it the same platform as GNU/Linux (Linux + glibc + Coreutils + X11)? Not for this purpose. The use of "GNU/Linux" emphasizes that this project aims to reimplement Cocoa on GNU/Linux, not to reimplement Cocoa Touch on Android/Linux.

    1. Re:GNU/ to distinguish from Android by dfghjk · · Score: 1

      No, Android is Android. Developers of projects get to choose the names, not you or Richard Stallman.

      There is only one purpose in insisting on the term "GNU/Linux", that's to redirect credit to RMS. RMS never said "GNU/Linux" refers to a platform of "Linux + glibc + Coreutils + X11", he said that GNU deserved credit and he was going to throw a tantrum unless he got his way.

      Who got confused about Cocoa Touch on Android and needed such preposterous clarification?

    2. Re:GNU/ to distinguish from Android by tepples · · Score: 1

      Who got confused about Cocoa Touch on Android and needed such preposterous clarification?

      Some Slashdot regulars often claim that the success of Android, an operating system that uses the Linux kernel, means the "year of the Linux desktop" has arrived to their satisfaction.

  21. GNUSTEP's graphical underpinnings? by unixisc · · Score: 2

    Where can I find ut more about Opal? I checked out Wiki, and this was what it showed:

    • - OPAL (software) (Open Physics Abstraction Layer), a real-time physics engine
    • - OPAL, a LAMP (software bundle)-like software bundle used in Oracle/PHP/Apache/Linux
    • - Opal programming language, developed at the Technical University of Berlin
    • - Open Phone Abstraction Library (OPAL), a fork of the H323plus project supporting H.323, SIP, IAX2
    • - Opal Storage Specification, a storage specification developed by the Trusted Computing Group
    • - BlackOpal, third release of Oz Unity, an Ubuntu-based Linux distribution

    So where can I find out more?

    Also, does GNUSTEP require anything like X, Wayland or Mir? Or can it be implemented directly on an OS? How much of an OS has to be there - like can GNUSTEP be simply ported on to Minix 3.x? Or does it need both Userland and kernel to be there?

    1. Re:GNUSTEP's graphical underpinnings? by tarzeau · · Score: 1

      http://goliat.eik.bme.hu/~balaton/gnustep/opal/ https://github.com/gnustep/gnustep-opal

      --
      Windoze not found: (C)heer, (P)arty or (D)ance
  22. Re:Shooting for 10.x? by morgauxo · · Score: 1

    Duh! Photoshop.

  23. Re:Shooting for 10.x? by WillAdams · · Score: 1

    Not upgrading here until I get a replacement for Macromedia FreeHand --- using it limits me to Mac OS X 10.6.8.

    --
    Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
  24. Re:GNU Clowns Strikes Again by unixisc · · Score: 1

    Not Nostalgia. The original goal of OpenStep was to have a cross-platform standard, and that was lost once Apple acquired NEXT. Of course, today, w/ the death of most RISC platforms, it may look like the goal no longer looks worth it, but that assumes that there won't be other CPUs other than x86 or ARM in the market. It's worth having something available in the event there is, aside from having this FOSS standard there for laptops as well.

  25. Re:GNU Clowns Strikes Again by fnj · · Score: 1

    There is nothing wrong with your comment. Yes, at one point the grammar was slightly confused, but it was crystal clear. And made a good point. Unlike our anonymous putz.

  26. What about the C API "Core" libraries? by glennrrr · · Score: 1

    Also, I have to assume that this project would have to also clone the various Core Foundation and Core Graphics and Core Text APIs as well, as very few real applications would use only the Objective-C wrappers for everything (I would think).

  27. GNU & GNUSTEP? by unixisc · · Score: 1

    Isn't GNUSTEP, like OpenStep, a platform independent standard? If yes, then it would work on both GNU as well as non-GNU platforms, such as the BSDs. Also, how important is the GNU userland here - is it either an important part of GNUSTEP, or necessary for GNUSTEP to even work/run? If not, then leaving out GNU out of Linux doesn't mean much, since GNUSTEP could run on it, w/o things like glibc, x11 and so on.

    1. Re:GNU & GNUSTEP? by unixisc · · Score: 1

      Yeah, it runs on all those, but doesn't it need X11 to run? Especially since Opal is not in a working state? There is a difference b/w having X11 running on all those BSDs, and then on top of that, WindowMaker running, as opposed to having an Opal-based GNUSTEP running on top of the base OS, w/o any X11/Wayland/Mir (the Ubuntu display server, not the BSD distro listed above)

      How about Étoilé? Does it require X11, or Opal, or some other display server? Also, how much of the underlying OS has to be there - like could something like GNUSTEP/Opal (once the latter was complete) install on just the Minix microkernel and run?

    2. Re:GNU & GNUSTEP? by borgheron · · Score: 1

      Isn't GNUSTEP, like OpenStep, a platform independent standard? If yes, then it would work on both GNU as well as non-GNU platforms, such as the BSDs. Also, how important is the GNU userland here - is it either an important part of GNUSTEP, or necessary for GNUSTEP to even work/run? If not, then leaving out GNU out of Linux doesn't mean much, since GNUSTEP could run on it, w/o things like glibc, x11 and so on.

      GNUstep is completely platform independent. The only thing it requires is a POSIX layer for some of the low level functions (which is available on Windows in the form of MinGW). It abstracts the display and the events layers. GNUstep has implementations for X11 and for Windows and can have implementations for any windowing system you prefer.

      The reason for the GNU in GNUstep is largely historical. Originally, GNUstep was supposed to be *the* development environment and windowing system for HURD and for Linux, but it didn't work out that way since KDE and GNOME came to prominence. GNUstep, since it followed OpenStep at the time and now follows Cocoa, had to be implemented against an existing spec as opposed to the "blow up the world and start everything new" philosophy of the other two projects. Implementing against an existing spec is much harder because it requires more discipline. Additionally, GNUstep is written using ObjC (for obvious reasons) and, back then, it wasn't as popular as it is now and developers interest both in ObjC and in coding for GNUstep were rare.

      --
      Gregory Casamento
      ## Chief Maintainer for GNUstep
  28. NS is NeXT/Sun and also Netscape by tepples · · Score: 1

    I assume Netscape Portable Runtime isn't also NeXTstep or NeXT/Sun. The name dates back to a company bought by AOL that handed off development of Mozilla to Mozilla Foundation. Have there been namespace clashes over this?

  29. irrespective of ports.... by smash · · Score: 3, Interesting

    ... I think having a complete and competent objective-c development platform on Unix/Linux is a very good thing. Even if it is up to OS X 10.6 level - plenty of Mac users still run 10.6 and as far as a platform goes 10.6 is still pretty powerful.

    --
    I run: Windows, OS X, Linux, FreeBSD. Just because you have a hammer, doesn't mean everything is a nail.
  30. Re:GNU Clowns Strikes Again by smash · · Score: 1

    You do realize, that the cool GNUstep goodness has NOTHING TO DO with the actual UI elements (which can be easily themed as/when needed at a later date), right? It's all about the objective-c frameworks.

    --
    I run: Windows, OS X, Linux, FreeBSD. Just because you have a hammer, doesn't mean everything is a nail.
  31. Saying "*BSD or Linux that isn't Android" by tepples · · Score: 1

    Perhaps X11/Linux would be the most accurate. In any case, the Android userland is as different from the "typical" *BSD or Linux that isn't Android userland as OS X is from either, and saying "GNU/Linux" all the time is far more convenient than saying "*BSD or Linux that isn't Android" all the time

    1. Re:Saying "*BSD or Linux that isn't Android" by dfghjk · · Score: 1

      "...and saying "GNU/Linux" all the time is far more convenient than saying "*BSD or Linux that isn't Android" all the time."

      A contrived problem only you suffer from. The rest of the world understands that Android isn't Linux.

  32. Re:I miss the dock by smash · · Score: 1

    GNUStep is nothing to do with UI elements. It's a collection of frameworks for objective-C to develop applications with.

    --
    I run: Windows, OS X, Linux, FreeBSD. Just because you have a hammer, doesn't mean everything is a nail.
  33. Re:Shooting for 10.x? by smash · · Score: 2

    This isn't about running OS X apps. This is about having the legendary NextSTEP rapid application development tools and some level of source compatibility between OS X and other Unix. Couldn't give a shit about OS X applications running on Linux personally, but if it means that Unix/Linux can piggyback off the huge numbers of developers learning to code for iOS and OS X, we might actually get some applications written that have a UI worth a damn. Interface builder makes the UI somewhat segregated for the code it is connected to. I.e., you can get a UI guy who actually knows shit from clay with regards to UI design to sort the UI out without needing to write or modify any code.

    --
    I run: Windows, OS X, Linux, FreeBSD. Just because you have a hammer, doesn't mean everything is a nail.
  34. Re:Hmmm by ceoyoyo · · Score: 2

    There isn't a lot of difference in the core Cocoa API between the later versions. Many, MANY OS X developers target 10.6 because it runs fine under everything more recent and unless you're using the latest goodies, which are unlikely to be ported by GNUStep anyway, there's no difference.

  35. Re:GNU Clowns Strikes Again by tarzeau · · Score: 2

    "One could say that GNUstep is a very nice woman, but without proper make-up and with a shabby dress. Although the expert eye could see the star sparkle, the average person maybe would prefer a more normal female with choosen make-up and dress." -- http://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=13189460&postID=112497309425424497

    --
    Windoze not found: (C)heer, (P)arty or (D)ance
  36. Re:I miss the dock by captjc · · Score: 1

    Did I ever say Window Maker was part of GNUStep? Doesn't change the fact that both are part of a handful of various projects to port or clone features from NeXTSTEP.

    They go together like like Bacon and Eggs. Both enjoyable and useful separately but also enjoyed together by many, including myself.

    --
    Slow Down Cowboy! It's been 1 hour, 47 minutes since you last successfully posted a comment
  37. Re:Shooting for 10.x? by Tsiangkun · · Score: 1

    +1 You would think that with all the programmers on linux, something as elegant and functional as sourcetree would be standard.

  38. Re:Shooting for 10.x? by ashpool7 · · Score: 1

    Easy portability from OS X to Linux/FreeBSD.

    Many programmers and server admins moved to OS X as their desktop machine because of its Unix base. You can have a nice desktop, commercial app support, and not be far away from a command line environment.

    If GNUStep can get compatibility, then developers can cross target OS X and Linux with their apps.

    Windows has nothing in common with Linux. All you're doing by throwing money at Wine is perpetuating the Windows Way Of Programming. At least with GNUStep it starts with the assumption of Linux or BSD Unix.

  39. Re:Shooting for 10.x? by tgetzoya · · Score: 1

    Here's an idea: I bought a MacBook Pro with OSX 10.7 in June of last year. I also bought Panic Coda, which is OSX only. Once OSX 10.x comes out that no longer supports my hardware, I can install Debian/GNUStep and continue to use Coda. I will admit I'm not heavy into Apple only apps, but I'm willing to bet there are many out there that are and this would be a great way of continuing to use things paid for without having to go out and buy expensive new versions of hardware.

  40. GNUstep UI pictures by DMJC · · Score: 1

    For those who don't know, there are actually multiple ways to run GNUstep's UI There's Macintosh Style: http://www.flickr.com/photos/camaelon/1317405806/lightbox/ There's Next Style: http://www.gnustep.org/images/GWorkspace.jpg And there's Microsoft Windows Style with all menus attached inside of application windows: http://www.gnustep.org/experience/images/lm_xp_themed.png The Classic UI style is only one of many options, you can set which style you prefer in System Preferences.app and it applies across all GNUstep applications automatically. It's better integrated than KDE and Gnome's versions of this. I really want to see webkit get completed,once it's done GNUstep will hae a usable desktop environment for everyday use and it should be a lot more comfortable to boot up on Linux and run it full time as a development/desktop environment. Let's face it, once you've setup X, Sound, and Networking most workstations don't get moved around, and all you really need is browser, text editor, music and video players along with terminal and Remote Desktop. GNUstep already has all of these tools, it's just missing the browser.

  41. Darling == Google Drive ? by Tsiangkun · · Score: 1

    Is this Darling project going to be the easiest way to get a functioning google drive client for linux ? Windows, MacOSX, iOS, and Android all have clients, and at this point the lack of a functioning linux client is not a technical issue.

  42. Future Options by reluctantjoiner · · Score: 1

    It might be nice to have a mature "wine like" option for OS X. Eventually, your perfectly functioning, useful computer is going to be "too old" to install the latest OS. Sometimes that just feels like forced obsolescence so having an alternative option in this case is useful. Also, if this was available around the time Apple abandoned the XServe customers, it might have eased their transition a little.

    Witness all the grumbling about Apple in the "Larry says Apple is doomed" thread. If Apple goes off the rails, having the option of switching to Linux whilst still accessing your programs and data would be handy.

    --
    Plan My Week for iPhone
  43. Re:Hmmm by smash · · Score: 1

    True, however ARC is still pretty new (10.8 onwards). The vast majority of aplications currently out there would have been written with manual memory management, and most objective-C programmers should be familiar with the concept.

    --
    I run: Windows, OS X, Linux, FreeBSD. Just because you have a hammer, doesn't mean everything is a nail.
  44. Re:I miss the dock by unixisc · · Score: 1

    GNUSTEP is the bacon and WindowMaker the eggs

  45. Re:Will not support by borgheron · · Score: 1

    NOTE: Some of the rewards say Linux instead of GNU/Linux. Apologies for the omission.

    Sorry, I dont support projects with pedantic zelots leading them. There is "Linux" and the Linux kernel, "Linux" is a fine an appropriate generic term for the operating system as a whole. Otherwise you really should be saying stupid shit like: "Ubuntu/Debian/GNU/Linux" to be clear because GNU is just a toolchain and a collection of software but not the whole collection.

    Get. Over. It.

    The fact is that Debian calls the distro "Debian GNU/Linux" whether you or I agree with the philosophy behind it, that's their proper name. If you take this as a sign of zealotry from me, which it is not I was only trying to call them what they choose to be called, then you're being a zealot in the opposite direction and perhaps you need to "Get. Over. It."

    --
    Gregory Casamento
    ## Chief Maintainer for GNUstep
  46. Re:Hmmm by borgheron · · Score: 1

    GNUstep is a lovely (and lovable) project, but "bring the implementation to API compatibility with Mac OS X 10.6's Cocoa"? Really? 10.6, when 10.9 is just around the corner? With such a huge delay, GNUstep will never be able to take off.

    You expect me to be able to bring the API all the way from 10.4/5 to 10.8/9 in six months? Some are saying that 10.6 is a lofty goal, but I think it's more realistic than 10.8 or 10.9. Also, if I see opportunities to bring things up to 10.8/9 while I'm doing it, I will. It's a matter of setting a believable goal to achieve.

    --
    Gregory Casamento
    ## Chief Maintainer for GNUstep
  47. Re:Hmmm by borgheron · · Score: 1

    There's ARC in Objective-C for example, which is a huge difference. Not sure if that's implemented in GNUstep.

    Yes, it's implemented. If you're using CLANG. GNUstep's libobjc2 runtime supports it fully. GCC, unfortunately, has a long way to go to catch up on some features since, for some reason, they don't consider ObjC to be release critical.

    --
    Gregory Casamento
    ## Chief Maintainer for GNUstep
  48. Re:Shooting for 10.x? by smash · · Score: 1

    +1 to that. Sure, low level OS X and Linux are reasonably different, but with GNUStep the programming environment for applications could be quite similar. Even if it isn't binary compatible, the ability to insert a few ifdefs and recompile for the other platform would make developing cross-platform much easier.

    --
    I run: Windows, OS X, Linux, FreeBSD. Just because you have a hammer, doesn't mean everything is a nail.