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New Radioactive Water Leak At Fukushima: 300 Tons and Growing
AmiMoJo tips this news from the BBC:
"Radioactive water has leaked from a storage tank into the ground at Japan's Fukushima plant, operator TEPCO says. Officials described the leak as a level-one incident — the lowest level — on the International Nuclear and Radiological Event Scale (INES), which measures nuclear events. This is the first time that Japan has declared such an event since the 2011 earthquake and tsunami. A puddle of the contaminated water was emitting 100 millisieverts an hour of radiation, equivalent to five year's maximum exposure for a site worker. In addition up to 300 tonnes a day of contaminated water is leaking from reactors buildings into the sea."
There was a significant leak back in April as well.
It's florescent fucking green! Do you know what that means?! It means it's toxic radioactive ooze!! Fucking OOZE!
Not nearly as reactive as this FUD however.
...approx. 75k gals per day. or not quite enough to fill an Olympic sized swimming pool.
Good thing it's a big ocean. Pity it's such a small island.
TEPCO is pleased to announce that additional capacity has become available in one of the radioactive coolant storage tanks, a development certain to ease fears of a capacity shortage.
....this is how it ends.
Should I apologize to my kid before or after he's old enough to understand that humanity has no future?
The CB App. What's your 20?
Units matter guys. 300 tonnes = 330.693 tons.
"A puddle of the contaminated water was emitting 100 millisieverts an hour of radiation"
Wow! that's slightly more radiation than you'd get from a flight over the ocean! Let's all freak out!
"In addition up to 300 tonnes a day of contaminated water is leaking from reactors buildings into the sea"
You fail at conversions. 100millSiverts = ~2000 Sydney Australia to Los Angles flights (1 flight is around .05 milliSieverts or 50 microSieverts).
Better check your arithmetic. It's giving off 100 mSv/hr = 876 Sv/yr (about 175x the fatal dose). If you flew in an airliner 24x7 you'd get 24 mSv/yr (a dose 36,500x smaller).
In parts of the US background exposure is 1700 mrem or 17 mSv per year. So the 5 year background exposure is 85 mSv.
In the US the normal power plant exposure limit is 50 mSv per year, and under emergency conditions it can be raised to 250 mSv per year.
According to the news report 100 mSv/hr was right at the surface of the puddle.
So don't go there.
On the bright side, you can buy Fukushima real estate very cheap these days. Uh, what's the half-life of this stuff? Gotta do a present/future value calculation on that real estate investment.
Totally wrong on the puddle, not bothering with the rest.
http://hps.org/publicinformation/ate/faqs/commercialflights.html
Nutshell:
"The corresponding annual effective dose, based on 700 hours of flight for subsonic aircraft and 300 hours for the Concorde, can be estimated at between 200 mrem for the least exposed routes and 500 mrem for the more exposed routes."
500 mrem is equal to 5 millisievert. So 100 msv is equal to 20 years of commercial airline employee exposure. In one hour.
"Gold still represents the ultimate form of payment in the world." - Alan Greenspan, 1999
You're crazy!!! 4 or 500 mil. Sv is a lifetime maximum safe disage!!!! Fukishima is tthrowing out 100 mil. Sv per HOUR!!!!!!+
I swear it's going to come true in my lifetime.
homer simpson makes level 3's all the time
the 3 eye fish will get them before they can make it very far.
We've got 'leak' in the headline for three articles in a row. (If you have the same topics enabled as I do.)
Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
Things to consider:
A. How much radioactive water has actually leaked into the Pacific Ocean prior to the latest reports?
B. What is the true amount of radioactive water still leaking into the Pacific Ocean?
C. How long until the leaks are stopped?
D. Given A,B and C, what will be the total amount of radioactive water to be dispersed from the local site?
E. Given D, how may fish are likely to encounter this area, considering fish migrate thousands of miles?
F. Given E, How many predatory fish will each the contaminated fish, spreading radiation through the marine food chain?
G. What is the period of time the radiation will remain in the marine food chain?
I think I'll be testing my fish with a geiger counter for a while.
Since the LD50 is about 5,000 mSv, 50 hours of exposure to this water would kill half of the people so exposed, roughly, from acute radiation sickness. But let's not freak out. They only lost 300 tons of it and don't know where it went. They still have their other 800,000 tons and at the rate they are generating this stuff it will hardly be missed. Shoot, 300 tons of it trickles under the plant toward the sea on an average day without having ever been in a tank by their own estimate. It's just embarassing to have gone to the trouble to capture it and then lose it. No biggie. How about you volunteer to go out with a mop and bucket and police it up. You should be done in a week or two.
Help stamp out iliturcy.
Except of course only ~300 tonnes of partially treated water IN TOTAL leaked (not 300 tonnes per day) and the leak has been stopped. Some of the water was recovered, and soil removed. It is also unclear if ANY of the water entered the ocean as nothing has been detected in any of the drainage ditches. And while 100 mSv of Beta radiation was detected at the surface of one of the puddles, only 1.5 mSv of Gamma radiation was detected (as the water was already partially treated to remove any Caesium). So don't go bathing in or drink the water and you'll be fine.
TEPCO has had a troubled relationship with the truth.
If it was actually for sale, I'd buy it for cheap. In 30-50 years it'd be clean enough to live on, the high rad stuff has short half lives, and the long live stuff has lower radiation, and it'd be cleaned up in 30-50 years. So, where's the Fukushima real estate link?
Learn to love Alaska
Before you kill the engineers, I'd like to meet them. I didn't even know it was possible for mankind to create a 30 meter wave that can kill 18,000 people.
Oh, wait, you meant the engineers that designed the nuclear plant that withstood the largest earthquake ever to hit Japan and then the subsequent tsunami? Hmmm, maybe we should agree to disagree.
The nuke plant gets all the play, and it is an ongoing expensive headache, but there are 18,000 people who would have rather been in Fukushima that day.
W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
Things to consider:
A. How much radioactive water has actually leaked into the Pacific Ocean prior to the latest reports?
B. What is the true amount of radioactive water still leaking into the Pacific Ocean?
C. How long until the leaks are stopped?
D. Given A,B and C, what will be the total amount of radioactive water to be dispersed from the local site?
E. Given D, how may fish are likely to encounter this area, considering fish migrate thousands of miles?
F. Given E, How many predatory fish will each the contaminated fish, spreading radiation through the marine food chain?
G. What is the period of time the radiation will remain in the marine food chain?
I think I'll be testing my fish with a geiger counter for a while.
The first thing you should have asked is:
What kind of radiation from what type of source?
Things to consider: A. How much radioactive water has actually leaked into the Pacific Ocean prior to the latest reports? B. What is the true amount of radioactive water still leaking into the Pacific Ocean? C. How long until the leaks are stopped? D. Given A,B and C, what will be the total amount of radioactive water to be dispersed from the local site? E. Given D, how may fish are likely to encounter this area, considering fish migrate thousands of miles? F. Given E, How many predatory fish will each the contaminated fish, spreading radiation through the marine food chain? G. What is the period of time the radiation will remain in the marine food chain?
I think I'll be testing my fish with a geiger counter for a while.
H. Ignore A through G as you are probably more likely to win the lottery (even w/o every buying a ticket) than to suffer any ill effects from this unless you live in close proximity. And are more likely to get mercury poisoning than for this to affect you in any way.
And the regulators. They approved a design that, in the failure of grid power, a generator fault would guarantee a meltdown. A tsunami capable of reaching the plant had a near-100% chance of knocking out grid power and fouling the fuel. They approved a plant in a tsunami zone with a guaranteed meltdown in the case of a tsunami. The generator and fuel were at ground level. Putting them in a 10m tower (hardened for earthquake) would have prevented this meltdown. At a cost of a few hundred thousand dollars. To save pennies, a meltdown was guaranteed by bad design.
Learn to love Alaska
Officials described the leak as a level-one incident — the lowest level — on the International Nuclear and Radiological Event Scale (INES)
The fact that its reported as a Level 1 incident is not reassuring, actually.
The International Nuclear and Radiological Event Scale (INES) seems to be highly subjective :-
And also, under Criticisms :-
I wonder if you can actually buy it at all.
Sure. Too bad you will be responsible to clean it up.
I saw something similar (non nuclear/smaller scale) happen in a town I lived in. CSX owned an abandoned roundhouse, but couldn't even give away the property due to the cost they or the new owners would incur to clean it up by doing so.
Holy crap. There is an International Nuclear and Radiological Event Scale. This thing actually exists.
300 tons of contaminated water doesn't seem like a lot when you consider there are (roughly) 784,430,000,000,000,000.00 tons of water in the pacific ocean alone. I think I'll still eat fish...
Make that 300 tons of contaminated water per day, something that Japan's environmental agency says has been happening since very soon after the initial accident in March of 2011. According to NPR, the next plan is to dig a bunch of cooling pipes into the ground and create an underground "ice wall" to stop the contamination from flowing out in to the ocean. No, really
You can trivialize all you want, but if I were you I'd avoid eating the fish from anywhere near the Japanese coast, and anything that eats there during annual migrations. Could be bad for your health. Radioactivity builds up in plants and animals over time, and it's been pouring in for 2 1/2 years now.
If that isn't bad enough, a newly stated concern is the proximity of melted fuel in relation to the Tokyo aquifer that extends under the plant. If and when the corium reaches the Tokyo aquifer, there will be 40 million people in the Tokyo area without access to safe water.
"Somebody has to do something. It's just incredibly pathetic it has to be us."
--- Jerry Garcia
"morons all over the place". You said it. In case you didn't know, heavy water is water made with the deuterium isotope of hydrogen. Deuterium is not radioactive, so heavy water is not radioactive. (That is not to say heavy water is not poisonous to drink). As I originally stated, tritium is the only isotope of Oxygen or Hydrogen that could be dangerously radioactive in this situation.
I am surprised that morons have the sense to hide behind an anonymous nom de plume. Maybe you and the author of "somebody never took college level chemistry 2." above are only halfwits.
The first thing you should have asked is: What kind of radiation from what type of source?
"While it had been treated to reduce radioactive caesium, tests of the leaked water found it was still highly contaminated with beta-ray emitting substances including strontium, which has a half-life of about 30 years and can cause bone cancers."
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-08-20/toxic-puddles-discovered-at-fukushima-nuclear-plant/4899844
Enjoy your fish and osteosarcomas.
"I've got more toys than Teruhisa Kitahara."
So yeah, if you decided, against all common sense, to bathe unprotected in the water leaking out of the reactor for an hour, then you would experience a statistically noticeable increase in cancer risk. Given that everyone knows there's radiation over there, nobody is doing this. That doesn't quite mean that it's 'safe' or 'trivial'... but it also doesn't mean you need to freak out and stop eating fish or anything.
They approved a design that, in the failure of grid power, a generator fault would guarantee a meltdown.
Indeed. I remember as a kid with an interest in nuclear power in the 1980s, reading about the design of the GE Mark I Boiling Water Reactor and boggling at the lack of a PWR-style containment building because the suppression torus "should be enough". But accidents always happen, I thought. What if some disaster caused a meltdown or explosion? Well, the article said, because there was no containment, the result of a meltdown would be unthinkable and therefore hasn't been investigated. Instead there would be failsafes to make sure a meltdown absolutely could never happen.
And I felt a cold shudder run down my spine at the casual engineering arrogance of that design and that, I think, was the moment when I switched from thinking of nuclear power as "cool" to "incredibly stupid".
There was a file photo in the article of a Mark 1 under construction - it was quite probably this one at Harper's Ferry - and the sight of the naked reaction vessel with the pipes reaching through the torus like an evil alien root, a cancer nodule built in steel, gave me nightmares for weeks. I had an instinctive feeling of revulsion and horror. This is a radiological disaster waiting to happen. Why would humanity build this monstrosity? Tear it out! Burn it! Bury it! Entomb the ashes!
Actually, looking at that photo, I still feel that feeling today. But at least we've learned from this... right guys?
You are not a brain: http://books.google.com/books?id=2oV61CeDx-YC
True, but the timeframe presented is worse than useless. A better figure would be that, if you spent all day bathing unprotected in the radioactive pool, you could die; if you spend two days there, you would probably die; if you spent four, you would certainly die. This is perhaps relevant to local fish over the extremely short term, but nothing you the consumer need to worry about; the legal freakouts associated with this will certainly keep any fish that happen to be right there where the waste's still concentrated enough to be hazardous off plates.
It's not an engineering fault, but a business and regulatory one. Make it as safe as possible, and have multiple redundant failsafes. That costs too much, so they are axed. And the regulators sign off on it.
Learn to love Alaska
Now that's a cool solution.
There's nothing wrong with that so long as it isn't the only thing done. You only need to keep it frozen long enough to find the leak, seal it and dig/pump out the contaminated stuff.
You should still be careful with fish, depending on where you live. Those 784,430,000,000,000,000.00 tons of water are already so much polluted with mercury that it might be safe to limit your fish intake. See for example this study.
Already been done by Carter, Reagan and Thatcher. It's just been a dead cat bounce since then with reactors living out their lifetime and nearly nothing being built. With a technology like that unless you keep on building stuff continuously you slide backwards because you've got to train a new bunch to build each reactor.
Don't pretend to be stupid, what was meant is the engineers that made the sort of mistake we used to laugh at the Soviets for - putting backup systems in places that make them as prone to failure as the main systems. The real problem however is the plant operators that took so many shortcuts that what should have been a relatively graceful failure was instead a serious of fuckups up to and including explosions. I'd say those are the people the above poster wants pointless revenge on.
The nuke plant gets all the play, and it is an ongoing expensive headache, but there are 18,000 people who would have rather been in Fukushima that day.
Sigh, I KNEW there was going to be one of these comments here.... Guess what, I know you don't know this, but I feel it's important to pass this info on: NO MATTER HOW BAD YOU FEEL ABOUT THE PEOPLE WHO DIED, THEY ARE DEAD.
People like you really piss me off because you seem to think that if all we do is throw a big pity party then the people who died in the tsunami will come back to life. But you have really BELIEVE they will, and only talk about them and absolutely nothing else. Guess what, it sucks that they died, it sucks hard, but there isn't a god damn thing you can do about, no matter how much you talk about it. But the people's friends and relatives DO have to deal with the nuclear issue. They DO have to deal with being kicked out of their homes for who knows how long. Unlike the dead people their situation can be changed(for better or worse). So yeah, unlike your self-righteous claims to the contrary, talking about the nuclear situation is in fact more productive than a constant pity party. Moron.
Monstar L
And at 300 tonnes per day it could leak until the end of time and not cause (after dilution) 18,000 additional deaths.
To call this a mole hill made into a mountain is to overemphasize it's size... after this is diluted into the ocean this does not even make mole hill status.
I wouldn't want to bath in the puddle before it leaks into the ocean. But bathing in the ocean more than a few hundreds of meters off shore would be safe.
The problem is more that the people living around a nuclear plant doesn't dive all that well and haven't got any houses under the sea.
I guess that's possible to fix with global warming and all but further away from the leakage. :)
(And no, it's likely not all that dangerous but it ruin a site pretty well.)
Ex-Fukushima Worker: High risk they’ll break fuel rods in Unit 4 pool —
Gundersen: Moving fuel risks nuclear chain reaction;
You can’t stop it, no control rods to control it.
1,331 rods need to be moved from just the #4 pool
http://uk.reuters.com/article/2013/08/14/us-japan-fukushima-insight-idUKBRE97D00M20130814
It was a 15m wave, and the plant was designed only to withstand 7.5m tsunami and magnitude 7.1 quakes. Both the tsunami and the quake damaged the plant. Japan had experienced larger tsunami and quakes before.
In fact the nuclear regulator warned TEPCO that defences were inadequate years before the disaster. The engineers knew there was a problem, they are not to blame. It is, as ever, the managers and profit motive.
Also, it's a slightly bizarre argument to say that because 18,000 other people died that somehow mitigates Fukushima. If you want to go down that route then millions starved in Africa in the 80s, 500,000 Iraqis died in the last war... I'm not sure what your point is. It's a disaster in its own right and deserves to be scrutinized.
const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
And of course TEPCO is still fighting not to pay out compensation to affected fishermen. Actually it will be the government, or rather the tax payer, who coughs up the money, since TEPCO is basically nationalized now. The government insures all nuclear plants because no commercial insurer will go near them.
const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
http://www.zerohedge.com/contributed/2012-09-19/fukushima-radiation-japan-irradiates-west-coast-north-america
In any case. Look at what's happening on this planet now with governments, governments organizations (nsa, ...) their corporation overlords, etc. You get the point.
Shouldn't it make sense that the world unites and helps Japan fix this problem ? At least the countries that can. I mean radiation is a global problem, not Japanese problem just because it happened in Japan.
Sometimes I think we're so ignorant and ... stupid (even though human race would think it's smart, especially the egotistical CS nerds) that we deserve to be wiped of this planet and replaced with whatever else.
Its confusing, but from the report it actually sounds like theres 300 tonnes total of the 'stand near a puddle for an hour to get your annual dose' stuff and 300 tonnes per day leaking of the less radioactive waste water they're using to keep the ponds of spent reactor rods cool.
but does anyone else feel this may be leading to a very Godzilla like situation.
If you've got a frozen wall around the thing you can take a dam long time to find it if you like.
Crude oil tanks of the same vintage as this plant have clay or impermiable rock underneath and bund walls enclosing the surrounding area. I'm curious whether nuclear power plants have the same precautions in place but they failed or if they are not held to the same standard and don't have to be prepared for leaks.
Each level is considered 10 times more severe than the level below, just like earthquake intensity scales.
I live less than 100 miles south the Fukushima plant.
On behalf of the people around me, I'd like to tell the Godzilla and Ninja Turtles-type of posters to go fuck yourselves. This isn't a fucking Internet meme to some of us.
Some of us who weren't killed or hurt in the earthquake or tsunami still have financial problems from the economic downturn in our businesses. We're not all in a position to just be able to pack up and move. We don't all live in trailers like some of you Godzilla-spouting fuckers.
Some of us have had to dig deeply into our savings.
To be honest, I'm more worried now than I was a year ago. We're back to trying to contain events instead of making any progress toward cleaning up and decontaminating.
I think a bigger problem is this:
How are they going to continue to find people willing to work at the plant? They quit after a while.
Would you work in a sealed decontamination suit and breathing gear outside in a heat index about 140F for about the same money the night shift kid-manager at Burger King makes? Just how smart and competent can someone like that be?
That's scary.
And the problem is not the engineers, it's the reckless, cost-cutting zealot-assholes from the accounting departments who become the presidents of utilities instead of engineers.
Why aren't you freaking out about that?
Because you're confusing global vs local contamination. This leak is local contamination which is a completely different scenario.
It's been revised up to level 3 now, apparently (the wording seems a bit awkward and tenses conflict):
Oh, and this is interesting in an unhappy way:
Posting anon to preserve mod points used in this thread,
Maow
I think I'll be testing my fish with a geiger counter for a while.
Firstly, you'd be much better off testing your fish for mercury. This is a very widespread pollution problem, unlike this leak, and actually does harm a lot of people.
Secondly and more importantly, the spot price of Uranium only has to rise by about a factor of 5 before it becomes economically viable to extract uranium directly from seawater.
SJW n. One who posts facts.
Some of us have a disregard for "Clean Coal" as well.
They feared that it could be used to suppress protest or support unpopular rule.
They just keep adding fresh. They are near the ocean, not infinite, but they can keep topping it up for as long as they can find new heroes to run the hose.
They feared that it could be used to suppress protest or support unpopular rule.
if made radioactive enough it will kill in short order both the pirates and their families, fences, collaborators and everybody else that comes into contact with the illegally begotten cash
And after a while and a few more exchanges, anyone else who happens to use that particular currency, which is kind of bad news if it's dollars or something.
And if you think that's only going to be "rich" people, you haven't thought very far. Or maybe you had.
Either this is a somewhat tasteless joke, or you're a psychopath.
"Slashdot - News and Chat Sites Deviant". (Click "homepage" link above for details).
Here's some more "common sense". The ocean is huge. A fish would have to be pretty close to the source of the leak to be in an area of any appreciable radiation. And remain there for some time. Larger fish that migrate for thousands of miles do not come that close to the shore for very long, if ever (once adults). Even if for some reason it did, radiation would be concentrated in organs that you, or most people do not eat. A fish would die from radiation poisoning before levels in the tissue that you ingest would reach levels to be toxic to you or I.
Would I eat a fish that was caught from a dock in Japan? No, probably not. Even though even that is mostly irrational fear. But I wouldn't gave a second (or even a first) thought about a yellowfin.
But that wasn't radioactivity, was it? Radioactivity cleans itself up given enough time. The really radioactive stuff goes away in days/months. The stuff that takes centuries or longer really isn't very radioactive. The problem stuff from this type of incident goes away in decades, but is absorbed into the body in place of calcium and iodine, bringing the radiation into your body where it can do the most bad.
#naabhaprzrag, #sverubfr-000, #agi-fcbafberq, negvpyr[pynff*=' negvpyr-ary-'] { qvfcynl: abar !vzcbegnag; }
I would say the engineers who put the backup generators where they would get wiped out by the flooding, and the engineers who put the incompatible electrical connections that prevented them from using portable generators. While there is evidence that at least one core may have cracked from the earthquake itself, the lack of power to run the cooling system was the biggest problem. (The biggest problem after underestimating the possible tsunami size that could hit the site, or with the reactor design itself being so vulnerable to loss of cooling, that is.)
#naabhaprzrag, #sverubfr-000, #agi-fcbafberq, negvpyr[pynff*=' negvpyr-ary-'] { qvfcynl: abar !vzcbegnag; }
Well then why don't you explain it for everyone, instead of making a pointlessly snarky AC comment?
#naabhaprzrag, #sverubfr-000, #agi-fcbafberq, negvpyr[pynff*=' negvpyr-ary-'] { qvfcynl: abar !vzcbegnag; }
I doubt there's any plutonium in it. The uranium is basically safe if there's any of it. And wtf is "buring"? Do you even have the faintest clue about how nuclear decay works?
There's probably a bunch of short-lived isotopes in there which are radioactive for days to months. They have to keep these under control until they decay. But it's the strontium and cesium that are the big problem, because your body absorbs them in place of calcium into your bones, and they have a half life of decades, so they can give you a slow exposure for the rest of your life.
#naabhaprzrag, #sverubfr-000, #agi-fcbafberq, negvpyr[pynff*=' negvpyr-ary-'] { qvfcynl: abar !vzcbegnag; }
You're right, A lot of us never too college level chemistry 2.
Why don't you enlighten us, oh wise one.
... how nature points out the folly of man.
GO GO GODZILLIA!
I'm pretty tolerant of my neighbors, but 100 mSv/hr in the neighborhood would definitely be a deal breaker.
different energies of radiation have different damage potential
The idea of the Sievert unit is that it's weighted according to damage to human health (the unweighted unit is a Gray). You're right about the internal/external thing though.
I ain't going near it, how about you?
...because with all that radioactive water dumping into the Pacific, any fish from that ocean will start absorbing radioactive elements. Bart's three-eyed fish will seem tame in comparison, because at least you can see the problem.
Even better? Radiation is cumulative, so propensity for tissue damage rises with each exposure and the radioactive elements build up in the animal's body. There is no safe level of radiation exposure (source: Hellen Cadicott)
Still even better? Expect the higher-order fish (the ones that eat other fish) to end up will even more radiation exposure. Guess what's at the top of the food chain? That's right: those hairless chimps are flocked.
Try the fish!
Yeah, right.
My point is that people lack perspective. The nuke plant problem is serious when viewed in isolation, but minor compared to the disaster that hit the area. If the meltdown had happened without any accompanying natural disaster (like Chernobyl), then I would be a lot more likely to be critical of the engineers.
Sure, the plant was not adequately protected from the tsunami. Neither were 18,000 people. Which is the bigger error in judgement?
W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
Also, it's a slightly bizarre argument to say that because 18,000 other people died that somehow mitigates Fukushima.
It's not bizarre at all. It's not just the nuke plant that wasn't protected - it was the whole damn coast! If the engineers knew that the plant wasn't safe, then they "knew" that those people weren't safe. Screw the stupid plant - why weren't those people moved or protected? I'm not sure why you brought up Iraq or Africa - they weren't part of the same disaster. If you want to play the analogy game, then it's like worrying about some oil that spilled into the Persian Gulf during the Iraqi invasion. Sure, it's a problem, but focusing on that completely ignores the big picture.
W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
It is the BWR abortions that are inherently dangerous as hell. Prove that a safe proper PWR costs "too much". There are numerous PWRs operating in the US, France, and other countries. Many submarines and aircraft carriers have PWRs.
It is not "increasingly" serious... this leak pales in comparison to the meltdown. It is ongoing, and it will be for 60 years. What, you think the rest of the tsunami damage magically cleaned itself up? The whole coast is scarred, not just this one oozing nuke plant.
W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
That's because clean coal doesnt exist.
Eighteen thousand people died in the tsunami. How many have died due to the reactor? Which was the bigger disaster, and which deserves more press?
Ah, but which disaster best serves the cheap political interests of the establishment? Coal plants are big big money, and closing down nuclear results in a lot of new ca$h for them. So we all know what's going on here, don't even pretend.
Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
You have me completely wrong. I see two fuckups:
a) a nuke plant was left vulnerable and unprotected.
b) 18,000 people were left vulnerable and unprotected.
Fuckup (a) left no one dead, but maybe a few injured. Sure, it's an ongoing problem and yes, life for the people affected sucks. But fuckup (b) was way, way, way, worse. As you said, nothing can bring those people back. They are never going home. Better to lose your home than to die. Fuckup (b) also meant hundreds of thousands of other structures were destroyed or damaged. Fuckup (b) displaced more people than fuckup (a).
And frankly, both fuckups were really the same fuckup. If engineers "knew" that the nuke plant was vulnerable, then naturally they "knew" what would happen to the rest of the coastline. They took no action on the plant - just like they took no action on the rest of the coastline. Fact is, it isn't an engineering problem at all - but one of economics. The nuke plant is not detached from the economic decisions that affected the rest of the coastline and ultimately led to the deaths of thousands of people.
W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
They weren't, as far as we know, acting with malice. I love how you armchair quarterback the plant design, but you have no strong words for the people who failed to protect actual human beings. It's a double-standard. The plant engineers haven't killed anyone - though even if a few die, they didn't allow people to live and work in the direct path of a tsunami.
W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
Those towns were not built by a single entity, they developed over many years. There was no plan for safety from the start. Their initial location was chosen hundreds or even thousands of years ago, before such things were understood.
In actual fact the risks were understood which is why evacuation procedures were put in place. The problem is that the tsunami was not detected early enough and the evacuation message did not spread quickly enough. In other words an attempt was made to make those people safe, but it failed. Securing such a large area is hard.
On the other hand Fukushima was built relatively recently. It was known at the time what the largest earthquakes and tsunami might be. Even when it became known later on that there were potential problems the one entity responsible for mitigating them didn't. The cost wouldn't even have been that high, not like trying to defend kilometres of coastline.
Unlike the towns affected TEPCO made little effort to address the issues, even though it was well within its power to do so.
const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
300 tons (80,000 gallons) of water is approximately...
* A city swimming pool
* The amount they dropped on the ground
* The amount they are leaking into the ocean each day.
* The amount they are adding to the tank farm a day.
Wow!
I'm willing to accept the possiblity that carbon sequestration might be able to generate energy from coal -- potentially even with valuable by products like graphene generated via carbon vapor deposition. Radioactive waste is not a valuable by-product. Especially the shit that stays dangerously radioactive for either thousands or millions of years. Apparently there are 10,000 metric tons of it created each year.
where the eff are you going to put all the CO2 at powerplant scale? tests to date have been a mix of labbench and pilot project. Also consider that powerplants need to be located regionally. so you can't power the entire US from carlsbad caverns.
They'll be cleaned up before I move in. But seriously, I can't find any cheap land for sale around any of the accident sites for modern nuclear issues. I'd buy it if I could.
Learn to love Alaska
Dear Whargoul,
I explained it fully.
Water is hydrogen and oxygen. Nothing else.
Hydrogen has only one radioactive isotope, which is manufactured in nuclear reactors. One source says that isotope (Tritium) is worth $30,000/gram (that is ~ $1 million/Oz.) World annual production is about 50 lb. So it is unlikely that any large quantity of Tritium would be left lying around in Japanese reactors.
As stated above Oxygen has a few radioactive isotopes, but the longest half life isotope of Oxygen (Atomic Wt 15) is about 2 minutes. That means that the radiation from a given sample of 15O diminishes by 999,999,999/1,000,000,000 every hour. If you are a layman, that means it stops being radioactive very quickly.
So if none of the components of water are radioactive, ergo, water is not radioactive.
I must say the quality of comments on /. has diminished noticeably in the last few years.
Totally different subject. Notice I'm also not talking about Christmas, onions or a variety of other unconnected topics in this thread.
Also as an engineer that has worked in power generation, though admittedly not nuclear, I'd like to point out that it is very amusing to be described as an "armchair quarterback" by someone like yourself.
That's a fairly absurd position. There is, in fact, a difference between a radiation dose you get all at once, and one that happens gradually over time... but Sieverts are specifically a measurement of dosage, and as such, are more generally useful when making quick estimates. True, the chart isn't perfect, but in terms of 'what you, the average guy, should know about radiation', as opposed to 'what a radiation worker or medical doctor needs to know about radiation' is a fairly wide gap. As noted by Randall himself, the comic is only a general education piece; if you, personally, happen to live in Japan, or are maybe considering a visit in the near future, by all means, do your own homework.
That said, as noted by another AC, Sieverts are used in general parlance specifically because of that issue you mentioned. There are other, more technical measurements out there that factor radiation in different ways... but the Sievert is a more useful measurement, because it tells you what you need to know (how dangerous is this leak) right away, if you know how to read the figures. That's all the chart is for, to give you some context to let you read the figures, which gives you a sense of what a figure like '100 mSv/hour' actually means.
D'ho! looks like I got my "micro" and "milli" prefixes mixed up. Thanks for the correction.
(using 40uSv as a flight from NYC to LA from the XKCD chard as a refrence point)
-I only code in BASIC.-
Like you, I'm an engineer in an unrelated field. No one cares if one of my robots gets flooded, and no one cares if your conventional plant gets flooded. The tsunami/earthquake damaged at least 4 conventional power plants, and you barely heard a peep. It set fire to a pair of oil refineries that were extinguished after a couple of weeks, and the only news about those was regarding their role in oil shortages. The only engineers being flogged on this board are the nuke engineers, which is silly. NOTHING on the coast of Japan seems to have been protected against such an event - why single out the nuke plant?
W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
How is it a different topic? It's the same disaster! Are you trying to separate out what happened at the nuke plant from the tsunami and earthquake? This wasn't Chernobyl.
W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
Because it's caused shitloads of hassles with a wide area having to be evacuated and the others haven't. It's human nature to be pissed off in such a situation.
I understand it is human nature. I'm trying to argue that one should look past the emotional aspects and actually judge the nuclear catastrophe by the same criteria as the rest of the Japanese coast. Naturally radiation is way scarier than a big-ass wave, because at least you can see and understand the wave. But at the end of the day, the score is radiation:0, big wave: 18,000. The risks to the plant were known, but so were the risks to the people. Economics won out in both decisions.
W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
Unfortunately there's the twin aspects of it being a new threat instead of a well known one like a tsunami, and that the tsunami has been and gone while problems are still ongoing at the nuclear power station. Maybe this will finally be a wakeup call about storage of old fuel, which is one of the many stuffups in this situation which should be avoidable but requires co-operation between elements of the nuclear power industry that don't like to talk to each other and governments that want to pretend nuclear power doesn't exist.
It's been at Level 3 for several days already...