Could a Grace Hopper Get Hired In Today's Silicon Valley?

theodp writes "There has been lots of heated discussion on the topic of where-the-girls-aren't, both in the tech and larger business world. Dave Winer broached the subject of 'Why are there so few women programmers?', prompting a mix of flame, venom and insight. Over at Valleywag, Nitasha Tiku pegs 'Culture Fit' as an insidious excuse used to marginalize women in tech. Completing the trilogy is an HBR article, 'Why Do So Many Incompetent Men Become Leaders?', in which Tomas Chamorro-Premuzic concludes the problem is that manifestations of hubris, which occur much more frequently in men than women, are commonly mistaken for leadership potential. So, with a gender and age strike against her, would a Grace Hopper in her prime even land an interview in today's Silicon Valley?"

Comments

Female programmers

[schneidafunk]

I only had one girl in my computer science classes in college, but she was an exceptional programmer. Now in the work field, again I encounter very few female programmers but am always impressed with their skill levels and dedication.

Re:Female programmers

[Anonymous Coward]

To say men have a bunch of personality disorders and make poor leaders as a result is just silly... many of the disorders they listed are actually much more common in women.. like histronic personality disorder. I have an unlimited number of crappy male bosses I can name but I've many women even in their 40s and 50s who never emotionally matured past highschool and some of them end up becoming bosses.

Listing off the personality disorders as reasons men are bad bosses is especially dumb because some of them like histrionic personality disorder are primarily female personality disorders.

Re:Female programmers

[mopower70]

That's selection bias at work. It's extremely hard for a woman to land a job in this field, and even before that there's a lot of pressure against it (the stupid idea that women can't do maths, the extremely male-oriented lingo and focus, etc.), so only the most persevering, most enduring women make it through.

No it's not. It's extremely hard for an employer to HIRE a woman in this field. There aren't any. I've hired for hundreds of technology positions from data center operations to development, and I've seen thousands of resumes. The women stick out mostly on account of their novelty. I have always hired on merit, but unless a woman was obviously unfit for the position (e.g., experience in a completely unrelated field or no experience at all) we always brought her in because it was such a refreshing change. This is not an advantage any man was ever given. And like the AC above, their skills fell pretty much along the same bell-curve as men: a few absolutely worthless ones, most of them about average, and a few standouts.

Re:Female programmers

[ShanghaiBill]

That's selection bias at work. It's extremely hard for a woman to land a job in this field

I completely disagree. I have worked at many tech companies over a thirty year career, and my experience has been the exact opposite. Many companies bend over backwards to hire more women programmers and engineers. I have heard many male engineers say that they would prefer a more gender balanced workplace, and have never heard any say they wouldn't like that. When I have hired women, the male engineers have always treated them with decency and professional respect.

On the other hand, I have never had any problem hiring saleswomen, or even female forklift drivers. The shipping crew at my last employer was 60% female, despite the crude sexism of their male coworkers that complained about too many "bitches" in the warehouse.

I think the dearth of female programmers is simply that women are not attracted to a career that involves sitting in a cubicle interacting with a computer. Women have broken into many male dominated professions. A majority of new lawyers are women. Nearly half of medical students are women. Unlike programming, those careers are perceived to have a lot of human interaction.

Re:Female programmers

[cardpuncher]

Not exactly Silicon Valley, but if you have access to BBC iPlayer, check out The I.T. Girls, a documentary about early women programmers or search for more information on Dame Steve Shirley - the reason she called herself "Steve" for business purposes rather than "Stephanie" is all too clear.

In the UK, and I would guess in most of the rest of the world, women were "allowed" into IT early on because it wasn't seen as being a career. As soon as money could be made from it, the women were squeezed out. Grace Hopper likely would not have been hired in the 1960s, never mind now.

Britain did have significant numbers of women programmers - ICL used to have an army of "pregnant programmers" who did a lot of its software support while on maternity leave (back in the days of 300 baud modems) and Steve Shirley's company "Freelance Programmers" employed women based at home. And there, I think you have it: until the IT industry is prepared to employ people who want to go home occasionally and have a life outside work, it's going to be more hostile on average to women than men.

Re:Female programmers

[dkleinsc]

I don't believe for a moment that it's any kind of negative force, such as sexism or bigotry, that's keeping women out of the field.

I do, because the women I know who are in the field experienced it. Some examples:
- Drooling classmates and coworkers who don't know how to take "no" for an answer.
- Professors who didn't take their work seriously because they were female.
- Very inappropriate jokes in the dev area.
- Management trying to move women from development or system administration to related but different fields like business analysis and project management.

We could go on and on about why there aren't more male nurses, and the conversation would be silly if we tried to ignore the fact that guys just tend not to be interested in nursing because they're guys.

Actually, that has been examined, and there are a couple of interesting points about it:
- Male nurses tend to get promoted quickly off of the nursing floor into administrative positions.
- There are some older female nurses that are actively hostile to male nurses.

Re:Female programmers

[cusco]

quotas always seem to cause more trouble than they are worth

You weren't around during the 'separate but equal' decades of the US educational system, I take it. There were perfectly valid reasons why quotas really WERE necessary. Most places have done away with them now as it's no longer a shock to see a black child in a mostly-white school any more, but the only reason why that is the case today is because it was FORCED down the throats of unwilling school boards across the nation. Quotas have their place, it just depends on the situation.

Why aren't more women in science fields?

[hsmith]

Yes, easy to blame evil men for everything - keeping Grace Hopper from getting a job in Tech in 2013 (Assuming she wasn't dead).

In the 80's, women made up most of CS programs around the country. When I went in 2000 - they made up a handful of the entire class. But, engineering was the same (for all engineering majors).

There isn't some evil conspiracy to prevent women from entering tech (some of the best innovators in tech I know are women). They simply, for whatever reason, aren't interested in it.

Re:Why aren't more women in science fields?

[AmiMoJo]

Even if you are correct that women are not interested, isn't that in itself a problem?

Girls tend to do better than boys at school, but at some point get turned off STEM subjects. Is it an innate female disposition? The fact that they are good at those subjects suggests not.

What is your theory? Do you have any evidence to back it up?

Re:Why so few women sanitation engineers?

[LoRdTAW]

There are a few women working the packer trucks (rear load garbage trucks) in the New York City Department of Sanitation (DSNY). I have seen them.

Re:Why so few women sanitation engineers?

[mopower70]

Maybe because programming and tech jobs in general are viewed as high prestige and the cutting edge of technology

Where do you work? I've been in technology for 20 years and programming and tech jobs have about as much prestige as a plumber or mechanic. I actually think that's one of the main reasons women DON'T pursue tech jobs in favor of doctoring and lawyering.

Re:I've met mostly men

[HornWumpus]

I've worked for women. Wasn't that bad. Better then working for a _short_ man. That really sucked.

I will never again accept work from any man shorter then 5'6''.

Re:Career Paths

[Anonymous Coward]

While you are right, the GP does have a point. Women did work, but it wasn't (for the most part) their *career* (GP's choice of words). Their job was (again for the most part) only a means to an end. If a household could afford the woman to stay home, society has not much problem with that.

(Again, for the most part) a woman doesn't work at say a meat packing plant with aspirations to become the plant manager someday or eventually own her own business. Her social status doesn't depend on her success in her career as much as her husband.