France To Open Preliminary Investigation About PRISM Program

An anonymous reader writes "Paris' prosecutor office opened a preliminary investigation after a complaint by two human rights associations who hope to determine the roles played by companies in the PRISM program. Two million communications (phone calls, SMS and mails) are said to have been intercepted in France by U.S. agencies."

Comments

It's a farce

[Anonymous Coward]

Isn't this just for show, or getting some benefits from the USA? I'm under the impression that a lot of earopean members are already using intel from prism and in exchange the USA gets access to the network. The only shocking thing is that they also listen in on political and businesss conversations.

Re:It's a farce

[Rakshasa-sensei]

They might be using the information, but that doesn't mean the court system won't find it to be illegal.

Basically the best end result of this would be if MS, Google, et al. get hit with huge fines. Then pressure to stop or limit the programs would come from someone with real power over the US government.

Re:It's a farce

[geogob]

I'm under the impression that a lot of earopean members are already using intel from prism and in exchange the USA gets access to the network.

The may be the first impression, but nothing is that simple. As everything is under the veil of secrecy (which is now open with the leaks), those using the information or ordering the use of information had most likely no idea how this information was obtained. They had probably as little idea on how the information they exchanged in return was acquired as well.

Its possible that they were in position where they could have known, but secret information is not release on a "per you might want to know this basis", but on a "need to know basis". That means that the person ordering the exchange or use of information, even if he has the correct security clearances, won't have a clue how the information is acquired unless that person specifically asks for it. And then the person asking would probably get obfuscated details not giving any useful info, unless again the right questions are asked. In the end, it's easier not to ask and act with the eyes closed.

And don't even think about asking how the information from another intelligence service was obtained.

This is a very complex synergy between intelligence organization and deciders. The intelligence organization do what they do probably not even because they are asked to, but because they feel they need to. On the other side, the people receiving the intelligence are happy with what they get and they probably never asked for anything specific or for the use of any specific source and might keep their eyes closed further under the thought "they have probably done the thing they do the right way".

This presumption goes through all levels up and up to the exchanges between intelligence organization. Its quite naive I would say.

And its not really a defensible attitude when the information you have for you can't possibly be acquired legally.

The only shocking thing is that they also listen in on political and businesss conversations.

Schocking, put predictable. Once you have broken the most basic laws and conventions, why stop at "terrorist"? You're already over the line. You've been over the line on a regular basis and you know the mean are not justifiable by the needs every time you cross this line.

It's like being shocked after learning that a hit man that killed dozens of Russians for the Italians had killed a police office for the Italian. Suddenly its an outrage and something has to be done. Its shocking.... but it's just another step of over that same line.

Re:It's a farce

[Jade_Wayfarer]

It's like being shocked after learning that a hit man that killed dozens of Russians for the Italians had killed a police office for the Italian. Suddenly its an outrage and something has to be done.

He killed them for Matilda, not for the Italian, but yes, it caused quite a reaction from the police force. And first strong imprint of Natalie Portman in all geeks' brains, although it was just a collateral damage.

Re:It's a farce

[oneandoneis2]

No. There are a lot of things - like medical information - that must be kept confidential, by law.

There's no excuse, no "but terrorists" claims, that get around this: If you've obtained (and, worse, stored) such confidential information, you've broken the law.

It's black and white, and even if the US just shrugs and ignores any verdict, no European organisation will be able to do so: If it's proved that confidential data is being snooped on by the USA, then there's no alternative but to switch to a system that they can't eavesdrop on.

This is something I keep trying to highlight about the whole PRISM thing: It doesn't matter if public opinion is mostly "I have nothing to hide so the NSA doesn't matter", the number of European organisations that are going to have to take action to put their data where it can't be snooped on is going to be *massive*. Whether out of desire for their own privacy, or out of a legal duty to maintain confidentiality, if PRISM doesn't go away, a huge chunk of internet traffic will have no choice but to pull entirely out of the USA. It could even be big enough to require a "second Internet" outside of US control just to get some semblance of privacy back.

Think about it - Governments, health organisations, insurance companies, banks... the number of really big organisations that are legally obliged to keep at least some data confidential is huge. They cannot ignore PRISM, they *have* to keep their data from being spied on.

Re:It's a farce

[AHuxley]

Very few parts of the world would get "intel from prism [like system] and in exchange the USA gets access"
That land or base deal was a short post ww2 list and third party status was only really one way for a Germany, the Netherlands, France, Belgium and Denmark.
There was no protection for any third party communications traffic just the offer to give to the US. Keeping third party status might secure US help in other areas over time.
The US air strike on Tripoli went around France, Italy and Spain. France did help with Chad in 1987, Iraq 91.
France would be more interested in the Microsoft, Yahoo, Google, Paltalk, Facebook, AOL, Apple side and exposing the US brands.

Re:It's a farce

[oneandoneis2]

There can't be any "informal agreement" - not since Snowden. Information that is *legally obliged* to be kept confidential can't just ignore the existence of PRISM.

Sure, the EU can change the law to add an exception for government spying. So long as they can get it passed, which is not an easy task.

The one thing organisations can't do is go on as they were now that they know confidential data isn't confidential.

And the alternative isn't trade isolation, it's a massive investment in technologies like end-to-end encryption to make it impossible for PRISM et al to spy on the data in the first place. Which frankly, I'm all in favour of..

Re:It's a farce

[drinkypoo]

The US has never cared about pissing on the UK since we won our freedom. But then, we don't care about pissing on anyone, except maybe China.

Re:It's a farce

[VortexCortex]

They might be using the information, but that doesn't mean the court system won't find it to be illegal.

Basically the best end result of this would be if MS, Google, et al. get hit with huge fines. Then pressure to stop or limit the programs would come from someone with real power over the US government.

Brilliant! We force them to do illegal things, then fine them for doing it! THIS THING PRINTS MONEY!

Re:It's a farce

[SuricouRaven]

I said an informal agreement. Formal agreements are bound by consistant law. An informal agreement consists of a few off-the-record statements behind closed doors where a suitably high-up politician says to his US counterpart 'Yes, this is illegal, but I'll tell my underlings not to bring any prosecutions so long as you tell your people to do the same.'

Human Rights voliations

[AmiMoJo]

The actions of the NSA and GCHQ are clear human rights violations in Europe. I hope both are pursued for this crime. Presumably the French are investigating GCHQ as well as the NSA.

Re:Human Rights voliations

[retech]

They won't actually do anything about it. No one ever does anymore. It's not just the States either.

Sadly, people are the same everywhere. And this new trend to just lay down and take it has become almost universal. Once a nation becomes industrialized enough and people have enough comfort they will never fight back for fear of losing that comfort. It's really the best way to enslave humans. Just let their own natural lethargy keep them in check. Sure there will be chest beating and spin doctors will cry outrage... but in the end, the people will just go home, turn on the tube and tune out the life they have.

Re:Human Rights voliations

[Nyder]

The actions of the NSA and GCHQ are clear human rights violations in Europe. I hope both are pursued for this crime. Presumably the French are investigating GCHQ as well as the NSA.

They went after google for the wifi data capture, and that isn't as serious as purposely capturing telephone and communications.

Of course, google just got fined, so what will they do to the USA if found guilty? Fine them?

Re:Human Rights voliations

[Nyder]

They won't actually do anything about it. No one ever does anymore. It's not just the States either.

Sadly, people are the same everywhere. And this new trend to just lay down and take it has become almost universal. Once a nation becomes industrialized enough and people have enough comfort they will never fight back for fear of losing that comfort. It's really the best way to enslave humans. Just let their own natural lethargy keep them in check. Sure there will be chest beating and spin doctors will cry outrage... but in the end, the people will just go home, turn on the tube and tune out the life they have.

So this is your excuse for not doing anything?

Re:Human Rights voliations

[Jade_Wayfarer]

And this is different from the whole world history... how? Yes, most people are complacent with order of things - be it current governments, Middle Age absolute monarchy or, say, bloody Aztec theocracy. Still, history teaches us that there is no need for the "masses" to be upset about anything for changes to come. On the contrary, mass starvation and poverty can lead to mass riots, even change ruling dynasty, but almost never to some radical changes in the country's ruling system.

For the real changes to come there must be a small percentage of unhappy "elite", like bourgeois in France or "intelligentsya / intellectuals" in Russia. Then they can lead masses to the revolution that will bring real changes. Problem is, our current elites are trying to use and even exploit existing systems of government, instead of trying to change it completely. So, yes, we won't have any real revolutionary changes in the foreseeable future, but not because of the "tubes". It's because everybody with the real power (even "middle class") are really happy with the current state of things.

Re:Human Rights voliations

[tao]

In before the, now, stereotypical US response of "your governments do it too!"...

1) No, we have liberty and freedom in Europe.

I dunno about other European countries, but in Sweden we definitely have a counterpart to NSA (FRA) that does similarly all-encompassing surveillance, all of course under the guise of "anti-terrorism". As an added "bonus" the laws regulating FRA explicitly says that they're allowed to exchange the information with foreign nations (read the US).

To dupe citizens into believing that the information isn't abused (of course the mere fact that the information is collected is abuse, but...) a special group has been set up to monitor the use of the information. But despite finding a lot of violations of the (already very permissive) regulations, FRA does not rectify any of their so called mistakes.

One example is that they're not allowed to save the information more than a certain time period (I believe it's 6 months). "Oh, but we copied the information to a different database! Now it's not raw data anymore, it's refined intellgence reports that aren't covered by that time limitation".

But other than that I agree. Two (or many) wrongs doesn't make a right.

Re:Human Rights voliations

[Xest]

I don't think GCHQ will be investigated. The problem is that whilst GCHQ was tapping cables in the UK itself, the NSA was ordering companies both US based and foreign to hand over data.

So for example, the NSA may have asked French telecomms companies to hand over data and the telecomms companies were obliging to retain access to the US market. In contrast GCHQ wasn't afaik doing this, it was just tapping cables only on it's home soil.

This is why the French authorities are investigating because in obliging French companies may have broken French law, but French companies can't be held liable if for example GCHQ stole data from them by tapping cables they used in the UK.

This seems to be more about investigating whether European companies adhering to those American national security orders from secret courts meant they broke the law of the European nations they were headquartered in than the spying programmes in general and GCHQ and the British government didn't use these sorts of orders - they went about things in a different way.

Re:Human Rights voliations

[TheRaven64]

They most likely won't go after the USA, but after corporations that cooperated with the NSA. Given that these are lots of big companies and very few of them are paying much (if any) tax in Europe, there's likely to be little public opposition to very large fines on such entities and hopefully it will mean that companies like Google can then go to members of the US government and say 'this NSA activity is costing the US economy billions of dollars a year and we'll be reminding your constituents of this and the fact that you supported it at the next election'.

Re:Human Rights voliations

[AHuxley]

So what will they do to the USA if found guilty?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicaragua_v._United_States shows the "outcome".
PRISM will end up as a great read, fun for historical and computer science types (from the view of the US gov).
More interesting will be the reputations of the big US brands, their long term EU and French standing. Local reps trying anything to get in front of any new local press as daily details become public.
This is not tax or some other day to day detail that can be PR away via help from some US firm. France recalls the Vichy days, Indochina, French Algeria, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elf_Aquitaine#Fraud_scandal and their public is educated and will enjoy the topics.

Re:Human Rights voliations

[Yvanhoe]

Actually, when I saw the title, as a French citizen, that was my first reaction. Then, I saw that this is actually a legal action. Depending on the judge chosen for this, the state may not have much options to stop the investigations. It could very well end with punishments, trigger the creation of privacy protection laws and cancel some treaties.

Re:Human Rights voliations

[retech]

I hope that it will cancel treaties in every country PRISM is used. However, I suspect what will happen is that any judge involved in such cases will go home one night and find an envelope on his table. He'll have no idea how it got there. Inside will be recordings, photos, money trails... you get the picture. And so will that judge. For fear of ending his career and losing that luxury he so enjoys, he'll swallow his indignant reactions and destroy the envelope. The case will end very favorably (based on legal precedent) for the USA.

Re:Human Rights voliations

[retech]

I've got a record from protesting. I've got a file from the letters, phone calls, meetings, and statements I've made. I've enjoyed many phone taps and calls to my friends and family from "concerned" authorities over the years.

How about you? What's your excuse for not getting off your fat ass?

Re:Human Rights voliations

[retech]

Sadly it's not terribly different. And I'd have to say that the "elite" are not really the key. It's getting a large enough group to agree to take a risk that will cause a tipping in the population. We go through glorious stages where this happens, revolt in Rome, civil wars, revolutions... in recent times the fight to win union rights cost a lot of people in the US limbs, lives, income and that comfort.

But it's very difficult to get people to risk that comfort now. It's nearly impossible actually. A paranoid person may think that it's designed that way to keep it all on the side of those in power. Hell, even the unhappy elite as you point out are not unhappy enough anymore to take that risk. They've been given too comfortable a leash.

If just one group in the USA said NO tomorrow and stopped working you could cripple the entire country in under two weeks. If just all the sales people, or all the nurses, or all the IT support staff... I'll give you an ideal group: Semi-truck drivers. There are less than 100k. And if they stopped driving and took their distributor caps when they went home there would be no food, water, gas, heat, or power in the entire US in about two weeks. I'd imagine if they had a list of just 10 reasonable demands those would be met in no time. If they were willing to risk it.

But... they'd get the phone calls to tell them go back to work or I'm sharing your online history with your wife. Or one of them would have their money frozen over a dodgy tax return and he'd post it on FB. And then the rest would cave because they would not want to risk it.

We've been trained to believe that individual comfort in the short term is more valuable than anything else. And we're unwilling to risk it to find out if the altruistic idyllic fantasy could become real. This is directly opposite of previous groups who did affect change.

Re:Human Rights voliations

[phayes]

You're counting chickens before they hatch. This suit will be buried one way or another as the French government does not want anyone looking any closer at the DGSE's data collection/mining activities. The Hypocrisy of trying to reproach the USA or US corporations for doing the same thing the French Government is doing (possibly with some of the same corporations like EMC) is too big to swallow, even for the current government.

Re:They're Jealous

[MRe_nl]

While China tops the list of countries engaging in cyber-espionage, according to a report published February by the US secret services, France shares second place with Russia and Israel, leading Foreign Policy to describe Hollande's outrage as "pretty hilarious".
Colourful stories about the lengths the French secret services would go to emerged in the early 1990s, such as the bugging of seats on Air France planes to eavesdrop on American business leaders.

At the time, then-CIA director Stansfield Turner qualified French intelligence as "the most predatory service in the world, now that the old Soviet Union is gone".

And the Americans are not the only country to have complained about French espionage.
In a 2009 US diplomatic cable revealed by Wikileaks, an unnamed German CEO of a satellite manufacturer was quoted calling France "the evil empire, stealing technology, and Germany knows this", adding that French industrial spying was doing as much damage as anything coming from Russia or China.

http://www.france24.com/en/20130702-france-usa-spying-snowden-hollande-nsa-prism-hypocritcal

Re:Good news - the NSA criminals must be prosecute

[AHuxley]

Italy tried that http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/07/19/us-usa-panama-cia-idUSBRE96I0V320130719

Re:They're Jealous

[dharmJah]

You're right on France: governement are almost the same as usa on privacy but the original article speaks about 2 french human rights organisations not french government. They just try to pursue NSA because with Snowden files they got proofs. If they had same proofs on french system, they will pursue french government as well.

Re:Good news - the NSA criminals must be prosecute

[TheRaven64]

Wow:

Lady was quoted by Il Giornale newspaper in 2009 as saying: "I'm not guilty. I'm only responsible for carrying out orders that I received from my superiors."

When that's your best defence, you know you've been doing something wrong...