Chinese Seek Greater Say In UK Nuclear Plants

← Back to Stories (view on slashdot.org)

Chinese Seek Greater Say In UK Nuclear Plants

Posted by samzenpus on Monday September 2, 2013 @01:08AM from the who's-paying-the-bill dept.

mdsolar writes in with news about negotiations between the Chinese and the UK over nuclear power plant investments. "The state-owned Chinese nuclear group that is in talks to invest in Britain's new nuclear program wants greater operational control of any new plants it finances, potentially creating a national security headache for the government. China General Nuclear Power Group (CGN), is in talks with EDF of France on sharing the cost of building a new plant at Hinkley Point, Somerset, which has an estimated price tag of £14bn. But CGN has made it clear to EDF that it will only proceed if it is given more of a say in running other plants the two companies build together in the UK, according to people familiar with the talks."

37 of 148 comments (clear)

Min score:

Reason:

Sort:

Does the UK get any say? by hawkinspeter · 2013-09-02 01:12 · Score: 4, Funny

So, it has come to this.

--
You're a temporary arrangement of matter sliding towards oblivion in a cold, uncaring universe
1. Re:Does the UK get any say? by K.+S.+Kyosuke · 2013-09-02 01:32 · Score: 5, Funny
  
  Does the UK get any say?
  It's a time-honored tradition that the developing country gets screwed by the rich foreign investors. ;-) So no, that would be ridiculous and unprecedented.
  
  --
  Ezekiel 23:20
2. Re:Does the UK get any say? by infolation · 2013-09-02 01:37 · Score: 4, Insightful
  
  China does have a fair point here, and that's speaking as a UK citizen, and not trying to play the devil's advocate. The UK has had a history of terrible management in pseudo-private sector enterprises since the 1960s, from British Leyland to British Rail.
  Nuclear power in the UK has, so far, been a loss-making enterprise, kept afloat only by government subsidies, and looks set to continue in this way. If I was any overseas investor looking to protect my money, China included, I'd want to make damn sure my investment wasn't just being used to reduce the UK's subsidy.
3. Re:Does the UK get any say? by Anonymous Coward · 2013-09-02 01:49 · Score: 5, Insightful
  
  What reason exactly would China want to have control? To reduce costs, of course. There is no other reason. And this will logically lead to limiting the government's oversight ability. The UK would be fucking idiots if they agreed to this. It would be like letting the US set the safety standards for drilling in the North Sea because Exxon was financing a rig. Fuck that!
4. Re:Does the UK get any say? by Anonymous Coward · 2013-09-02 01:54 · Score: 5, Insightful
  
  Do you still want no say in operation when safety measure are cut to protect your 'investment'? Why is Chinese government* even allowed to operate a nuclear plant in the UK?
  *Don't fool yourself, every Chinese corporation is a branch of the CCP. And this is not a 'racist' rant against China, I consider American corporation to also be a branch of the U.S. government. Ask Edward Snowden about it.
5. Re:Does the UK get any say? by lkcl · 2013-09-02 01:58 · Score: 5, Interesting
  
  yes. many people are unaware of the fact that these major power plants - coal, gas, oil, nuclear - are only efficient when they are at maximum capacity. if you shut them off for any reason (and this can be done fairly quickly), getting them back up to temperature can take *weeks*.
  so any investor is going to want guarantees that the power plant in which they're to be investing billions will provide a guaranteed return on investment. even in cases where there's complete catastrophic failure [hey, what's insurance for, huh?]
  btw as an off-topic aside, the reason why wind power is a failure even before it becomes popular [which it won't] is because its power provision is completely arbitrary. in fact, it's not very well-known but the wind systems in scotland where i used to live were heavily subsidised. the UK Govt pays them 25 thousand pounds A MONTH to NOT run them. in fact, as they're motors as well as generators, when it's not windy enough, from what i hear they're actually POWERED to make them LOOK like they're generating electricity, so that people don't wonder why they're not running.
  wind turbines. only operational at between 8m/sec (about 24mph) and 24m/sec (about 70mph). below that there's not enough wind to make them turn. above that they're dangerous (one blew up in wind-speeds of 150mph last year - made a great photo in the local scottish paper). and yet people insist on commissioning wind-turbines based on a 100% operational capacity.
6. Re:Does the UK get any say? by amiga3D · 2013-09-02 01:59 · Score: 2
  
  How in hell does a power generation facility lose money? Is that even possible? You generate power and sell it at a rate that guarantees a profit. Where is the risk?
7. Re:Does the UK get any say? by golden+age+villain · 2013-09-02 02:16 · Score: 2
  
  As a London resident, I wish foreign companies had more of a say in the development and maintenance of UK infrastructures. Maybe then the transformer in the street below my apartment would not have spontaneously combusted and exploded some days ago. Anyway they had apparently already abandoned the control of their nuclear plants to the French. How much worse can it possibly get?
8. Re:Does the UK get any say? by hawkinspeter · 2013-09-02 02:19 · Score: 2
  
  I'm not sure who I mistrust more: the UK or China. At least if it's China that causes a meltdown then we'll be free to discuss it without having terrorist laws used against us.
  
  Thanks for your sympathy - on the bright side, we get to put 'u' in random words (e.g. colour) and can use 's' instead of 'z' when we want to.
  
  --
  You're a temporary arrangement of matter sliding towards oblivion in a cold, uncaring universe
9. Re:Does the UK get any say? by Anonymous Coward · 2013-09-02 02:23 · Score: 2, Insightful
  
  If China didn't have such an atrocious safety record:
  http://inventorspot.com/articles/economic_boom_7_things_china_unexpectedly_explode
  http://blogs.wsj.com/chinarealtime/2009/06/29/shanghai-building-collapses-nearly-intact/
  http://www.businessinsider.com/china-bridge-collapses-2012-8?op=1 "Look At All The Major Chinese Bridges That Have Collapsed In The Recent Years"
  http://www.fda.gov/animalveterinary/safetyhealth/recallswithdrawals/ucm129575.htm (pet food tainted by melamine)
  http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/subjects/m/melamine/index.html (baby food tainted by melamine)
  http://www.businessinsider.com/china-water-pollution-2013-3?op=1 "If You Think China's Air Is Bad, You Should See The Water"
  The list just keeps on going. I would not want people from China applying Chinese corner-cutting business practices to anything nuclear, oil&gas or food related (see all of the above)
10. Re:Does the UK get any say? by iserlohn · 2013-09-02 02:26 · Score: 3, Interesting
  
  To specifically address your first point, State run Chinese enterprises in the 1960s weren't doing much better. Many state run Chinese firms today still require state subsidies to operate.
  What's more concerning is the current climate in which everything has to be privatised. There are some areas where the free-market performs sufficiently worse than than a controlled economy. Privatisation of rail in the UK, for example, privatised profits while the state still needs to subsidise the infrastructure. I'm sure if the current trends continue, this is exactly what's going to happen with the NHS. In the end, the public gets shafted.
  
  --
  :. Ultimate Control Dedicated/VM Servers
11. Re:Does the UK get any say? by Inda · 2013-09-02 02:33 · Score: 3, Informative
  
  You must be thinking of a different country. We're talking about the UK here.
  
  There are generating companies, retailing companies and consumers. There is some overlap. There is no monopoly here. Cartel - maybe.
  
  --
  This post contains benzene, nitrosamines, formaldehyde and hydrogen cyanide.
12. Re:Does the UK get any say? by Bongo · 2013-09-02 02:47 · Score: 2
  
  I have fun watching http://www.gridwatch.templar.co.uk, especially how the gas dial jumps up and down trying to follow the wind.
13. Re:Does the UK get any say? by interval1066 · 2013-09-02 02:54 · Score: 2
  
  At least if it's China that causes a meltdown then we'll be free to discuss it without having terrorist laws used against us.
  No, they'll just send you to prison when you see an infrastructure project collapse due to faulty materials.
  
  --
  Python: 'And then suddenly you have a language which says "we're all stuck with whatever the whiniest coder wants".'
14. Re:Does the UK get any say? by malacandrian · 2013-09-02 03:02 · Score: 5, Informative
  
  yes. many people are unaware of the fact that these major power plants - coal, gas, oil, nuclear - are only efficient when they are at maximum capacity. if you shut them off for any reason (and this can be done fairly quickly), getting them back up to temperature can take *weeks*.
  
  Actually, gas can be spun up in less than an hour. A lot of coal/oil plants have gas turbines on them that run during start-up for this very reason. Nuclear, on the other hand, basically can't be turned off. It's why your electricity is cheaper at night: stops the network becoming unstable from too much generation with no draw.
  
  in fact, it's not very well-known but the wind systems in scotland where i used to live were heavily subsidised. the UK Govt pays them 25 thousand pounds A MONTH to NOT run them.
  
  Strictly speaking the national grid, an independent private company who you would be perfectly free to set up a competitor to, pays them not to run. This is not unique to wind power, as balancing the load/generation across the network often requires plants of all varieties to be shut down at which point the plant owner is paid some proportion of the profits they would have expected to gain from running the plant to get them to turn it off.
  
  in fact, as they're motors as well as generators, when it's not windy enough, from what i hear they're actually POWERED to make them LOOK like they're generating electricity, so that people don't wonder why they're not running.
  
  That was a plot line from the sitcom "Twenty Twelve", not reality.
15. Re:Does the UK get any say? by cusco · 2013-09-02 03:26 · Score: 2
  
  The Chinese economy and its infrastructure expansion is several times the size of England's. Take the various British infrastructure fiascoes and multiply by many, many times and then see how the numbers compare.
  
  --
  "Think about how stupid the average person is. Now, realise that half of them are dumber than that." - George Carlin
16. Re:Does the UK get any say? by daem0n1x · 2013-09-02 04:22 · Score: 5, Interesting
  
  I'm from another European country. Our electricity used to be supplied by a State-owned company. A few decades ago, the neoliberals in the European Union told the neoliberals in my government that states shouldn't have a presence in the economy, because it goes against the Holy Dogmas of His Sanctity the Free Market. So the company was split in shares and privatised.
  The pundits and politicians on TV always told us that the whole purpose was to create "competition". This would magically drop the costs to the consumer and bring better service, blah, blah, blah. 20 years gone by, and instead of buying electricity from a state company, we buy it from a bullyish private-owned monopolistic behemoth. The only "advantage" we got from the privatisation were skyrocketing prices. And a lot less money going into the State coffers to be reinvested in infrastructure, or education, or health care, whatever. Instead, it's being funnelled to private pockets, to be "reinvested" in yachts, whores and coke. Not only our state is not taking any money from the company, it pays it huge rents for all kinds of bullshit services, like "guaranteed power" and whatever.
  It seems pretty obvious to any sane person what was going to happen. I mean, it's electricity. What competition can you get from that? I get home, I flick a switch, lights are on. I don't want to think about it, I don't even care who the fuck supplies my electricity. I don't even understand the business model. What happens if I change supplier? Does a guy come to my apartment with a huge reel of cable and sets up a direct connection to a power plant? My country is fucking tiny! What kind competition is possible?
  Recently a Chinese company, detained 100% by the Chinese State, came and bought a big participation in the electricity company, getting to control it. And, voilà! According to the neoliberals, our State can't own our companies. But apparently, the Chinese State can! So, one of the most critical and strategic sectors in our economy is owned by a foreign country, and we're their bitches, now. I can't make up my mind if it's better or worse to be the bitch of private corporations but, at least, it would be less hypocritical.
  Now they're seeking to privatise water. Go ahead. What can possibly go wrong?
17. Re:Does the UK get any say? by FireFury03 · 2013-09-02 04:40 · Score: 2
  
  Do you still want no say in operation when safety measure are cut to protect your 'investment'?
  I would like people with some understanding of the job at hand to have a say. However, the vast vast majority has _no_ understanding of this stuff, react to what the papers/environmentalists/whoever say, and their voices drown out those who know what they're talking about. So my only conclusion is that no, maybe the public shouldn't have a say - it should be down to the experts. The trick there, unfortunately, is how to ensure that decisions are made by neutral experts rather than people with a vested financial interest in one thing or another (most of the MPs have their fingers in lots of the pies that they have to vote on... and they don't declare this of abstain from votes when they have a conflict of interest).
  
  Why is Chinese government* even allowed to operate a nuclear plant in the UK?
  Because consecutive governments have chosen not to make a decision on the future of British energy because they know that *all* the choices are unpopular. By the time crunch time had been and gone and a decision was long overdue, the inaction of the government had basically ensured that the UK had no nuclear industry who could feasably commission nuclear power stations. So now we're stuck having to bring in the nuclear industry from other countries who *didn't* put the whole nuclear power idea on hold for decades and therefore still have some expertise in this area.
  As it stands, things ahve been left so long that there is no way the UK is going to be able to commission new power stations in time to avoid a shortfall in generation capacity and there is next to no working UK expertise WRT building nuclear power stations anymore, so what else can we do but bring in foreign corporations to help out?
  
  --
  http://blog.nexusuk.org
18. Re:Does the UK get any say? by AmiMoJo · 2013-09-02 05:03 · Score: 2
  
  You have to understand the British politician's mentality when it comes to foreign ownership and control. As long as there are "safeguards" of some kind, like an ineffective and puny regulator or a written promise not to be evil, everything is fine. In the short term some people in the City make loads of money and by the time it all goes wrong you will have long since retired to a nice board-level position in the industry and a maybe peerage on the side.
  
  --
  const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
  SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
19. Re:Does the UK get any say? by mspohr · 2013-09-02 05:05 · Score: 2
  
  Interesting to see that now the tables are reversed and the UK is now being exploited by Imperial China.
  
  --
  I don't read your sig. Why are you reading mine?
20. Re:Does the UK get any say? by haruchai · 2013-09-02 05:22 · Score: 3, Funny
  
  Yachts, whores and coke?
  That's job creation, my friend. Do you know what kind of er, stimulus, those things you named gives to manufacturing, transportation and medicine?
  
  --
  Pain is merely failure leaving the body
21. Re:Does the UK get any say? by sjames · 2013-09-02 12:39 · Score: 2
  
  The issue for nuclear is actually that you can't bring it back up for some time once you reduce power without the risk of unstable operation. After a full shutdown it will be 24 to 48 hours before you can bring it back up. The issue is build up of reaction poisons known as an "Iodine pit". In theory you can burn past it, but in practice, that can give you a Chernobyl.
Devious by oobayly · 2013-09-02 01:32 · Score: 5, Funny

So, China pretend to integrate themselves into the international community, then they want a say in how Hinkley Point "C" runs, then they start a meltdown which makes the surrounding area uninhabitable. The UK economy crumbles due to the loss of Cheddar, Somerset Cider and Glastonbury hippies doing face-painting. The Chinese buy up the rest of the UK, but due to their lack of economic know-how forget that the UK can't buy the stuff they produce, so they put down the whole episode as a bad learning experience.
The worst bit, I'm left drinking Suffolk cider and eating Wensleydale. I'm happy about the lack of face-painting facilities though.
1. Re:Devious by AlphaWoIf_HK · 2013-09-04 07:53 · Score: 2
  
  Something licked my chops.
  
  --
  Da derp dee derp da teedly derpee derpee dum. Rated PG-13.
Well shit by oldhack · 2013-09-02 01:44 · Score: 4, Insightful

You lose control when you insist on not paying for your shit.

--
Fuck systemd. Fuck Redhat. Fuck Soylent, too. Wait, scratch the last one.
1. Re:Well shit by amiga3D · 2013-09-02 02:05 · Score: 2
  
  Everyone wants to have their cake and eat it too. I can't blame the Chinese here, if I was buying the plant I'd want to run it too.
Re:Isn't that the same as saying no? by JanneM · 2013-09-02 01:56 · Score: 3, Insightful

In what political universe do they imagine the people of the UK would be interested in giving operational control of a nuclear reactor in Somerset to a foreign government,
In the kind of universe where the one who pays for something also gets a say in it. But of course, the UK is free to pick up the tab in their stead and pony up the needed investment.

--
Trust the Computer. The Computer is your friend.
Re:US AND NOW UK OWNED BY CHINA !! by amiga3D · 2013-09-02 02:02 · Score: 2

Really. If I had to choose between the French and the Chinese I'm not sure which I'd pick.
Ah the Chinese by Chrisq · 2013-09-02 02:05 · Score: 2

Ah the Chinese .... Britain's oldest allies .

Brought to you by the John Kerry school of political history.
1. Re:Ah the Chinese by Chrisq · 2013-09-02 03:00 · Score: 2
  
  I'm sure the Chinese and Prince Philip feel practically the same family.
  Good point - after all he's a Greek who married into a German family with a lot of influence in the UK...
Re:It really depends. by dbIII · 2013-09-02 02:08 · Score: 3, Insightful

If you don't want Chernobyl-like experiments or TEPCO lies then the regulators need more teeth. Threats about revoking licences are theoretical and have not happened after any of the incidents to date, and they'll need to be more than theoretical if there's no chance of losing government money that is flowing in (which has been the real threat to date to keep the places honest).
a lot to do with construction plans? by Anonymous Coward · 2013-09-02 02:11 · Score: 3, Interesting

I assume a lot of the kerfuffle is the Chinese investor wanting to have a say over how engineering, procurement, and construction is sourced--specifically they would want a good portion of the investment in services and jobs to go to China.
Re:Isn't that the same as saying no? by Eunuchswear · 2013-09-02 02:27 · Score: 5, Funny

And who do you think the UK trusts more, France or China?

[Hacker and Sir Humphrey are taling about the bomb ...]
Hacker: Anyway, the Americans will always protect us from the Russians, won't they?
Sir Humphrey: Russians? Who's talking about the Russians?
Hacker: Well, the independent deterrent.
Sir Humphrey: It's to protect us against the French!
Hacker: The French?! But that's astounding!
Sir Humphrey: Why?
Hacker: Well they're our allies, our partners.
Sir Humphrey: Well, they are now, but they've been our enemies for the most of the past 900 years. If they've got the bomb, we must have the bomb!
Hacker: If it's for the French, of course, that's different. Makes a lot of sense.
Sir Humphrey: Yes. Can't trust the Frogs.
Hacker: You can say that again!

--
Watch this Heartland Institute video
Re:Isn't that the same as saying no? by Eunuchswear · 2013-09-02 02:31 · Score: 2

That would be the Civil Nuclear Constabulary

--
Watch this Heartland Institute video
Hem! by AlphaWoIf_HK · 2013-09-04 07:31 · Score: 2

Some seem's

--
Da derp dee derp da teedly derpee derpee dum. Rated PG-13.
1. Re:Hem! by AlphaWoIf_HK · 2013-09-04 07:52 · Score: 2
  
  Addendum: Actor caloob : DoomImp
  
  --
  Da derp dee derp da teedly derpee derpee dum. Rated PG-13.
Re:And it begins.. by AlphaWoIf_HK · 2013-09-04 07:53 · Score: 2

I licked my chops.

--
Da derp dee derp da teedly derpee derpee dum. Rated PG-13.