Team Oracle Penalized For America's Cup Rules Violations

whoever57 writes "On Saturday, Oracle Team USA and Team New Zealand will begin racing for the America's Cup in the amazing AC72 boats. However, the Oracle team starts with a significant handicap. It was recently discovered that members of Oracle Team USA made illegal changes to the boats used in the America's Cup Series (which is sailed in the smaller AC45 boats). After a hearing on Friday, the International Jury has decided on the penalty: Team Oracle will have to pay a fine and sail without some team members. More significantly, they lose two points before starting the America's Cup races against Team New Zealand. A tiny amount of weight had been added to the kingpost, in violation of the measurement rules for the class. This was reported to the measurement committee some weeks ago after its discovery by boatbuilders working for America's Cup Regatta Management (ACRM), not members of Oracle Team USA."

Comments

Wow

[ArchieBunker]

I'm sure all six of the fans who watch this race are shocked.

Re:Wow

[MightyYar]

Given that NASCAR brings in people by the hundreds of thousands, I think that lack of popularity does not necessarily detract from the Americas Cup.

Re:Wow

[BLKMGK]

Actually i watched some of the races in the run up to the cup and found it pretty interesting. The boats are sailing at as high as 50MPH with hulls nearly fully out of the water. There's tons of telemetry and the announcers are doing a decent job of explaining what's going on - it's actually fun to watch and you can see it takes a great deal of skill. Scoff if you want but I for one found it interesting, adding all of this telemetry really does add to it I think. It helps too that the boats are so damned advanced and fast!

Re:Wow

[MightyYar]

The irony is that a NASCAR team has a lot more in common with an Americas Cup team than with anything poor, trashy, or stupid.

Re:Wow

[deathguppie]

The America's cup is watched by millions. Team costs per syndicate are in the hundreds of millions making Indie racing or formula 1 a joke in comparison. What's more it is the least regulated form of racing (current situation not incumbering) of all the professional racing sports. 30 years ago they were racing mono-hull sailboats pounding through small waves. Now they are racing multihulls that litterally lift off the water on wings going faster than the traffic on the golden gate bridge and almost leaving the speed boats that trail them in the dust.
From my personal experience sailing a boat over 25knts the splashes start to feel like pebbles and then rocks hitting you.. the intensity of having a vehicle of that size moving at that speed is akin to taking Caterpillar 797 through a downhill from Pikes peak. It's amazing and a great sport at any level.

Re:Wow

[Solandri]

While it's regarded as a rich man's sport, the race has been a major driving force behind research into the use and manufacture of carbon fiber composite structures, and methods for determining computational solutions for the Navier-Stokes equation (which is still unsolved, and is not even known if there is/isn't an algorithmic solution). The race creates an incentive for the super-rich to become early adopters of these technologies. Without the race they'd probably piss their money away on gold toilet seats or who could make the biggest megayacht. At least this way they're spending money on advancing the state of the art for technologies which will eventually benefit you and me.

Re:Wow

[Anonymous Coward]

people like NASCAR cause its poor, trashy, and stupid.

NASCAR isn't poor.

Re:Wow

[dkf]

the Navier-Stokes equation (which is still unsolved, and is not even known if there is/isn't an algorithmic solution)

The Navier-Stokes equation is strongly non-linear, so it's entirely expected that there are going to be very few exact algorithmic solutions (and most of those that exist are for cases where the non-linear terms are zero). The general problems with determining exact solutions to non-linear equations have been known for a long time in mathematics.

On the other hand, it does mean that turbulent flow is not about to become a boring subject to study.

Re:Wow

[Anonymous Coward]

... methods for determining computational solutions for the Navier-Stokes equation ...

Just a minor quibble, you mean determining an analytical solution for N-S. There are computational methods available to solve it already - whether or not a closed form solution exists is the question.

Re:Wow

[Anonymous Coward]

the top four F1 teams each spend in excess of 200million euro, Ferrari close to 250million. 600 million tv viewers each year

Re:Wow

[Anonymous Coward]

Without the race they'd probably piss their money away on gold toilet seats or who could make the biggest megayacht.

Um, they do that too - at the same time. Been there, seen that. (way too poor to have done that myself, for the record)

Re:Wow

[Anonymous Coward]

Not sure where you get your information about funding for Formula 1 from, but its bollocks, whilst the teams do not publish specific breakdowns at line item level, they spend a LOT of money every single year.

Even six years ago the teams were spending a fortune each year, See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Formula_One#Revenue_and_profits for some sort of general idea,

The current estimate of Red Bull racing is they are spending in excess of $295M/year every year.

http://www.hindustantimes.com/motor-sports/topstories/The-bonkers-business-logic-of-Formula-1-teams/SP-Article1-968466.aspx

A simple Google search shows more details.

So in conclusion, the Americas cup is run every three years and costs around $100M to mount a challenge, a top F1 team spends approx $300M per year every year so spends $900M in the same timescale.

Simply put F1 costs around 9x per year than the Americas Cup. Yep you were talking bollocks.

Re:Wow

[Big Hairy Ian]

They wont know about it they are still stuck in the sand box :D

Re:Wow

[Big Hairy Ian]

They wont even know about it because they're all stuck in the sand box

Re:Wow

[argStyopa]

America's cup is watched by millions....barely.
http://www.bizjournals.com/sanfrancisco/news/2013/08/21/tiny-audience-for-americas-cup-tv.html

The semifinals are averaging 50-80,000 viewers.
The races just off San Francisco with the most effete/trendy/hipster crowd imaginable, averaged 800-900,000.

This is somewhere around the ratings received by NBC's "Last Call" at midnight.

This is a marginal sport irrelevant to 99.9999% of the population, and in which the only participants are giant conglomerates or kajillionaires. Granted, formula one racing, etc are likewise only for the big-money teams, but pretty much everyone drives. Sailing as a regular activity is already a marginal sport performed only by the tiniest rind of enthusiasts, that 'pro sailing' is like the margin of the margin of the margin. I don't doubt that it takes tremendous ability, intelligence, and teamwork. It's just that the bulk of us can neither see it nor appreciate it if we could.

Re:Wow

[Anonymous Coward]

What's the significance of having the so-called least regulation in racing? I realize this is slashdot, but holy crap are people against rules and regulations in games and sports? Sports aren't fucking libertarian. And perhaps there should be more regulation, after the most prominent team, Team Oracle USA, was caught blatantly cheating. It's not like Ellison cheats in any other businesses, right? Uh huh...

And the boats that "literally lift off the water" is part of the problem. Because Team Oracle made the rules, they've decided on extremely expensive boat designs that has eliminated all but the best-financed teams.

I'm not a fan of America's Cup and I hate car racing, but this is crazy.

Re:Wow

[Anonymous Coward]

This is a marginal sport irrelevant to 99.9999% of the population

The other 0.0001% of the world population (7.1 billion) is only around 7000 people. You have one 9 too much in your percentage for the semifinals, and two for the San Francisco races. Or, if you assume "population" means only the USA, the San Francisco races are irrelevant to 99.7% of people, significantly less than in your estimate.

Re:Wow

[Anonymous Coward]

going faster than the traffic on the golden gate bridge and
almost leaving the speed boats that trail them in the dust.

and those chase boats need four 300 HP outboards on them just to keep up.

Re:Wow

[wanax]

The boats are incredible, but it's not sailing in any accessible aspect. I love sailing sunfishes on lake morey, or bigger boats on lake champlain (and I know enough about my skill level to avoid of wider waters like the Sound). But what they're doing now is so totally foreign to everybody who's ever sailed a boat... I've watched a few of the 'challenger races' and I could scarcely tell what direction the wind was coming due to the airfoils (they have to both tack coming upwind and gibe going downwind) except for the speed of the boat (~25kn upwind, ~40kn downwind). This was, as far as I can tell from the PR material, meant to make the race more exciting, but since it dropped the number of teams down to 4, there was never any mystery that team New Zealand would challenge Oracle since so few people could afford to build the boats and spend time racing them (even Oracle has cosponsors)... I absolutely agree though that the announcers and TV coverage has been phenomenal.

Re:Wow

[Osgeld]

Interesting, I am from the south, white and male, I may be brutal but not bigoted, sounds like you might be though

Re:Wow

[deathguppie]

0.00001% of world population cares about the accuracy of statistics surrounding people who may or may not enjoy yachting.. sadly those people are also avid slashdot followers

Re:Wow

[Russ1642]

Don't bring facts into this discussion.

Re:Wow

[tragedy]

Of course, an America's cup team does one challenge with one vehicle in that time frame. As far as I can tell, team Red Bull runs two vehicles and at least ten challenges a year, so they run 60 races in in the time an America's Cup team runs one. So, even if they spend nine times more in total in the same time frame, they're spending less than 1/6th as much per race. Ultimately, you can view it pretty much any way you want and say that one outspends the other per this or that. Car racing is, obviously, bigger overall in terms of money spent. America's cup sailing obviously involves far more money, design time and difficulty on a single vehicle intended essentially for a single use.

Re:Wow

[crakbone]

Think your taking his/her statement backwards. I took it to mean that he/she meant that it is acceptable to be a bigot to southern white males in this society. I have found this to be quite true. On most commercials the white male father is considered an idiot. Most Southerners are called redneck or poor white trash and frequently referred to in association with the practices of incest and bestiality. This is quite common and prolific in the US.

Re:Wow

[PortHaven]

No it's not....

It is all the same concepts with the exception of the ability to hydrofoil. But present day Moths (1930's design revised numerous times) have been running hydrofoils for a while now. Hard sails are decades old too.

Heck, there are folks hydrofoiling old lasers now. And the rest of the action is not really different than ancient catamaran designs.

Re:Wow

[girlintraining]

The semifinals are averaging 50-80,000 viewers.
The races just off San Francisco with the most effete/trendy/hipster crowd imaginable, averaged 800-900,000.

This is a marginal sport irrelevant to 99.9999% of the population, and in which

The US population is presently about 314 million. That means .2% of the population watched the sport by your own statistics. 99.98% is nowhere near 99.9999%. I know you were just pulling numbers out of your ass, but you could at least... fucking try, man.

Re:Wow

[Creedo]

Well, it may be far more technical than most people get, but I wouldn't say that it's "totally foreign." I also sail Sunfish, I'm not a racer myself, but I'm familiar with the lengths some of the catamaran sailors around here go to wring the most competitive advantage from their boats. These guys just spend WAY more time and money on it than a regular sailor could ever dream of.
Dammit, now I'll never get any work done today. I'll be thinking about sailing all afternoon.

Re:Wow

[Anonymous Coward]

So you've moved your position from how much they spend (which was wrong and bollocks) to some notional relative spend per race. So as they run 19 races (not ten) per year, and have two cars, and we multiply that by three, then we get 114 races over three years which works out at $7.8M per race.

So the more races they do, the cheaper it works out to be. I suppose you could try and sell that F1 is a cheap sport, but oddly enough I think they look at what it costs overall for the season rather than per race. I'm a little surprised you didn't argue that the cost per mile makes F1 cheaper as each race is around 200M (or so), so the Americas Cup is even more expensive, but hey, you carry on living in your fantasy world that the Americas Cup costs more than F1 racing in spite of facts.

I stand by my statement that you are talking utter and complete bollocks.

Re:Wow

[Anonymous Coward]

Sorry, forgot this was Slashdot. Won't do it again...

Re:Wow

[unimacs]

Fewer regulations mean more innovation, but it also runs the risk of making the race more about the development of the boats than the race itself. There's a line that needs to be walked. Though I miss the classic lines of the traditional 12 meter monohulls they used to race, it's amazing to see what can be done when you open the money spigots. These boats are amazing.

There are plenty of opportunities for people to race sailboats that are less about money. There are small strict one design classes where the boats are relatively inexpensive and from a performance perspective pretty much identical to each other when new or at least well taken care of. Modifications that can be made are severely restricted.

In fact if you just want to crew you can often do it for free if you live somewhere near where they race boats. Depending on the size of the boat and the seriousness of the competition, they will take people with no experience at all.

Re: Wow

[quintus_horatius]

Whoosh, you took the meaning backwards, but thanks for reaffirming two stereotypes at once!

Re:Wow

[xevioso]

Having been born and raised in the south, I have no problems with people who make fun of the south's bassackwardsness. Never in my life have I met so many people opposed to progressive ideas, such as gun control, abortion rights, gay rights, and affirmative action. Whether you agree with those things or not, the south has been at the forefront of opposing those things. I have no problem in general with people who make fun of "the south" for opposing those things.

Re:Wow

[K. S. Kyosuke]

People like to trash NASCAR because Southern Americans like it

You mean Brazilians and Peruvians?

Re:Wow

[tragedy]

So you've moved your position from how much they spend (which was wrong and bollocks) to some notional relative spend per race

I'm not the original poster you replied to, so my previous post in this thread is my original position. The original poster wrote:

Team costs per syndicate are in the hundreds of millions making Indie racing or formula 1 a joke in comparison.

That doesn't seem to be inconsistent with my interpretation since it didn't specify that it meant an absolute total. You scaled things in terms of one year of America's cup being worth 1/3rd of a year of racing. I scaled things the other way in terms of three years of America's cup being worth one race. I'm not sure why you feel you should be the absolute arbiter of what elements should be compared and this seems more logical to me. Neither I nor the original poster claimed that the America's cup was financially larger in absolute terms than car racing so, if they're to be compared, race to race seems the best way.

So as they run 19 races (not ten) per year, and have two cars, and we multiply that by three, then we get 114 races over three years which works out at $7.8M per race.

I said "at least ten". I wasn't finding anything stating the exact number, so I just based it on ten named races one of their drivers had competed in during 2012 according to his wikipedia article. So your numbers really do drive down the average cost per race. Obviously that's an economy of scale in action. Now, if there were just one big race every three years it's interesting to consider what they would spend. The cost breakdown on the page they listed says that they spend 50% just on engines. So that would be over three million dollars per race. I don't know how common switching out an engine is during a race, but I imagine they avoid it if they can. In any case, if there were just one big race every three years, it means that the 50% they spend on engines would drop sharply, and plenty of other costs would also drop sharply. It's hard to figure out a good way to scale the costs.

In the end, it appears that we're comparing apples and oranges to a degree. You also said:

I'm a little surprised you didn't argue that the cost per mile makes F1 cheaper as each race is around 200M (or so), so the Americas Cup is even more expensive, but hey, you carry on living in your fantasy world that the Americas Cup costs more than F1 racing in spite of facts.

I did refer to such possibilities when I said: "Ultimately, you can view it pretty much any way you want and say that one outspends the other per this or that." and I also said "Car racing is, obviously, bigger overall in terms of money spent." but, hey, you carry on living in your fantasy world where I'm saying something I didn't say.

Re: Wow

[Osgeld]

yea it was pretty easy to show that you are not only a dipshit but a biggot as well

Re:Wow

[Anonymous Coward]

every been up north to detroit or chigago? it aint just here sweetie

Re:Wow

[BLKMGK]

Not a sailor but I thought they went fastest going nearly directly into the wind? No? My understanding and observation is that they actually go faster than the measured windspeed too which is wild!

Re:Wow

[Anonymous Coward]

er you do know the Americas Cup isnt a single race don't you?

Re:Wow

[Anonymous Coward]

The difference is that the money spent per race is much, much higher in America's Cup.

The final races all take place over a small number of days. It would be like holding the entire F1 season over a single week. And a lot of the AC tech cannot be re-used in the future. There is no next season. It will be years before the next series, and the designs will likely be completely new since the winner gets to decide the boat design rules.

F1 is rapidly moving to a spec car series, much like IRL did. Many teams run the same engines, and engine control electronics are now universal. Rules are even moving toward teams sharing their chassis.

But so far, the AC racing has been terrible and boring. Sure, the tech is amazing. The races will be about Oracle and New Zealand, and hopefully the races will be close. Historically there have been some incredible AC races, with dozens of lead changes in a single race.

Re:Wow

[Anonymous Coward]

Clearly you haven't watched a NASCAR event in the last couple of years. The stands are 60 to 75 percent empty.

Re:Wow

[MightyYar]

So now they only attract, what, 300,000 people?

Re:Wow

[argStyopa]

If I did, what would indolent pedants have to post about?

Or are you asserting that the difference between a tenth of a percent, and a hundredth, a thousandth, and/or a ten-thousandth MATERIALLY affects the point I was making?

Re:Wow

[Anonymous Coward]

I think you mean analytic, not 'algorithmic'

Spare

[Anonymous Coward]

"Damn! Can't get rid of the servers that way, either!"

Re: Spare

[Anonymous Coward]

Dag nab it, I meant for subject to be "Sparc".

Re: Spare

[Anonymous Coward]

Dag nab it, I meant for subject to be "Sparc".

I wouldn't fret. Nobody gave a fuck anyway!

Explanation...

[wbr1]

A tiny amount of weight had been added to the kingpost, in violation of the measurement rules for the class.

So that is where Larry Ellison hid the pennies he hears from ask.com toolbar spam on the Java installer.

Re:Explanation...

[wbr1]

earns* dammit, stupid autocorrect

Re:Explanation...

[guttentag]

So that is where Larry Ellison hid the pennies he hears from ask.com toolbar spam on the Java installer.

Ironically, TFA has an ad on the sidebar that exhorts the reader to install a "Customized Toolbar for Serious Sailors" by the site that is hosting TFA. The ad seems to move around, so if you're having trouble locating it, here's the gif itself. I wonder if Ellison has this toolbar installed... being a serious sailor and all.

Re:Explanation...

[SeaFox]

Not quite, I think this is related, though.

Apparently the shipbuilders for Oracle's boat didn't see the little checkbox to turn off "Install Kingpost PC (personal craft) speedup" before they agreed to the blueprints.

Re:Explanation...

[chickybrick]

Can someone please explain why people say there's a toolbar in the Java installer? I have always gotten the JRE/JDK from http://www.oracle.com/technetwork/java/javase/downloads/index.html and have never encountered such a thing. Am I the only one who knows these even exist?

Sometimes I wonder if people have making life more difficult for themselves just to give them something to rant about.

Re:Explanation...

[vrt3]

If people google for "java download" they get this page: . On that page there is a big red button called "Free Java Download". That's the most straightforward way to download Java, and it gives you an installer with the toolbar (at least on Windows; I don't know on other platformst).

Not only that: even if you install Java from a non-toolbar installer, the automatic updates (if they even work) use the toolbar-version of the installer AFAIK.

That's why people say there's a toolbar in the Java installer.

Re:Explanation...

[SeaFox]

Can someone please explain why people say there's a toolbar in the Java installer? I have always gotten the JRE/JDK from http://www.oracle.com/technetwork/java/javase/downloads/index.html and have never encountered such a thing. Am I the only one who knows these even exist?

Most people just get it from the home page, and that's a different installer.
Remember, a large number of people who get Java only do so because Pogo tells them to. For those people this is "surfing the internet". And they're going to click the first search result, which is that same installer. Yeah, your page is the third result, but they will ask "Is 'Java SE' the same as 'Java'?" and they'll skip it.

When the consumer version automatically notifies you of an update, the updater has the same type of installer (with the tag-along software), so you have to uncheck the option every time you update Java now.

Sometimes I wonder if people have making life more difficult for themselves just to give them something to rant about.

More difficult like digging through a tech-net website looking for a installation program, and coming to this page (which would intimidate any non-techy person)?

Re:Explanation...

[AmiMoJo]

You visited a random link without AdBlock? Eww. That's like sleeping with some random bint you met in a pub without a condom. You could catch all sorts as nasty things!

Re:Explanation...

[cdrudge]

Why should I install an entire development kit when all I need/want is the runtime environment?

Re:Explanation...

[SeaFox]

"What's a runtime environment?" asked the user, "I want to download Java."

You wouldn't want to download the entire development kit, to answer your question. But if I go to the page the parent post mentions I'm confronted with several links, and the most obvious links are the two square buttons ("Java Download" and "Netbeans Download"). Java Download takes you to the page I linked at the end of my post.

How is the end user supposed to know they should go down and of the three links below click the download button under the "JRE" heading? What's JRE?
See where I'm going with this?

No worries...

[JohnA]

Oracle is planning to sue the America's Cup team for violating their patents on "Boat API v1.0"... that'll teach them to build a boat using standard terms like hull, sail, and rudder!

Oh

[cold fjord]

Somebody on Team Larry isn't going to get a bonus this year.

Re:Oh

[Richy_T]

Nah, Oracle will just have its own Americas cup. With Blackjack. And hookers.

"miniscule"

[girlintraining]

Okay, from what I'm reading here, this sounds like a gross over-reaction and a lot of rich old people taking shit way, way, way too seriously -- over an apparent lead weight added to some doo-hicky mc-shippy thing which if I spent the next several hours orgasming over the idea of captaining an overly-expensive boat with no practical application other than being a giant penis floating through the waves, I might understand the function of.

Such as it is though, I'm a computer geek, and the only thing I understand is performance. And everything I've read is that the change was tiny, and would probably have less effect on the performance of the ship than whether one of the teammates ate at McDonald's and forgot to crap after. No, I'm perfectly serious -- it seems that all this hub-a-bub amounts to someone having nailed a few ounces of metal to some part of the ship and it would have next to no impact on the ship's performance. So from an engineering and sport performance perspective... it's a tempest in a teapot.

So why the angry rich people hating on Oracle? As far as I can tell, They're angry and running about calling it "cheating" over what appears to be a simple case of not understanding the horribly dense and overly-complicated rules, in a new ship class that just debuted this year.

It's like NASCAR finding out that someone used windex to clean the windshield instead of the pre-approved isopropyl alcohol mix and deciding it was cheating, that NASCAR's reputation was ruined, and the only way to fix it would be to put the driver and the entire pit team out for a good public flogging while the guy with the jet pack flies over head carrying an American flag hung upside down and a long banner saying "You assholes! You killed it for everyone."

Fucking rich people. If it were me, I'd say screw it, build a submarine, and go out there and play Jaws with their rich-ass ships, sinking all of them one by one while Ride of the Valkyries played from giant water-proof speakers... because if there's one thing I hate more than people taking themselves too seriously, it's taking themselves too seriously and being rich pompous bastards while doing it. -_-

Oracle... you heard it here first: Build a U-boat and go sink those rich asshats.

Re:"miniscule"

[whoever57]

it seems that all this hub-a-bub amounts to someone having nailed a few ounces of metal to some part of the ship and it would have next to no impact on the ship's performance. So from an engineering and sport performance perspective... it's a tempest in a teapot.

That is the most puzzling part of this: why? any advantage would be far too small to make any difference to the outcome of a race.

So why the angry rich people hating on Oracle? As far as I can tell, They're angry and running about calling it "cheating" over what appears to be a simple case of not understanding the horribly dense and overly-complicated rules, in a new ship class that just debuted this year.

Last year, actually. It was an AC45 that was modified. These boats have been racing for over a year and are effectively a one-design class. This wasn't an accidental rule violation. This was weight added deliberately:

The suspect forward kingpost appeared to have been filled with a resin/ballast slurry of some type. and weighed 3.744 kg.

And:

Oracle... you heard it here first: Build a U-boat and go sink those rich asshats.

In this competition, Oracle are the richest of the rich asshats.

Re:"miniscule"

[MightyYar]

I think you pretty much have the gist of it - the speculation is that the weight replaced an instrument package or something else that was hanging there before. It was 5 lbs - less effect than an inch or two of a crewman's buttock on the rail.

That said, I'll remind you that rich "asshats" pretty much own all sports teams. NASCAR may have humble origins, but the teams are now owned by people who could just as well build a yacht.

Re:"miniscule"

[Anonymous Coward]

What a surprise, another horribly uninformed post by girlintraining.

Re:"miniscule"

[viperidaenz]

There is a difference between the Americas Cup and NASCAR

If you want the best car in the world, New Zealand probably isn't the first choice.
If you want the best sailing boat in the world, New Zealand is the only choice.

Re:"miniscule"

[MightyYar]

Them Kiwis can sail!

Re:"miniscule"

[Anonymous Coward]

Also, in sailing, you actually have to know how to steer.

Re:"miniscule"

[CodeBuster]

Okay, from what I'm reading here, this sounds like a gross over-reaction and a lot of rich old people taking shit way, way, way too seriously

Seriously, who gives a shit about yacht racing? It's an aristocratic hobby for east coast snobs with too much money and not enough good sense. Meanwhile the world is just a few steps away from military action in the middle east that could easily escalate into another massive war and possibly even a world war if it draws in Russia, Iran and Syria on the one side and the United States, Israel and NATO on the other. Ellison and his friends sure do have a fucked up sense of priorities racing their damned yachts in the midst of an international crisis. A pox on all their houses I say.

Re:"miniscule"

[BLKMGK]

These boats are heavily heavily instrumented and tested - it was also not just one boat. I think that maybe they figured out that doing this was an advantage of some sort and thought they could get away with it. It's being made to sound really miniscule but one cannot help but wonder why they did it and then even denied having done it after being caught.

It's a cool race to watch and these boats seriously fly. When i watched the Oracle boat was stomping another boat pretty good and had a multiple knot advantage over it's competitor. If I were on the rules committee I'd be taking a VERY close look at the rest of those boats, I doubt this was the only change..

Re:"miniscule"

[Anonymous Coward]

That is the most puzzling part of this: why? any advantage
would be far too small to make any difference to the outcome
of a race.

Oracle are playing down the advantage it would give, and the local
media are lapping up that spin. Obviously if you are going to risk
your career over such a move (and make no mistake, the tampering is
no minor issue, look up the water ballast fiasco of a few years ago,
in the sport these guys are now the equivalent of Lance Armstrong)
you'd be damn sure in your mind that the advantage gained would be
worth that risk. The AC45s love the extra weight up forward and
since seconds count and the boats are supposed to be identical,
every little change translates to a big advantage.

This is intentional cheating, the scandal will be if they don't get
banned from the sport for years.

Re:"miniscule"

[Osgeld]

there's an international crisis every month, we cant stay all sheltered up and bunkered down for our entire lives

Re:"miniscule"

[viperidaenz]

It's not really an international race though. Both Team New Zealand and Team Larry are skippered by Kiwis.

It's more like Auckland vs Wellington.

Re:"miniscule"

[MightyYar]

Pining for the days of Dennis Conner, are we?

Re:"miniscule"

[kermidge]

Nice. America's Cup has long had, and had a reputation for, arcane rules. Just as for the Formula cars, Indy, etc., the rules are meant to offer two things, a level playing field, and yet room for engineering and technical innovation and the manner in which the vehicle is driven within the rules that give that level field. A similar approach is done for smaller class boats but the rules are much simpler.

It's all supposed to boil down to how well one can design and build a boat (that's matched evenly with others) and then how well can one sail it.

America's Cup is indeed a playground for the rich. Yet one may readily and enjoyably participate in small class boat races at a local sailing club, often for no more money than just showing up and offering to crew. For more serious stuff it's generally expected that you have proper clothing, an approved harness and flotation jacket along with proper devices (lamp, flares, horn.) If you get up into Mackinac Race territory, then it starts getting serious, but even twenty, thirty years ago it was fairly casual. It's fine if one just wants to day-sail; but the small class boats offer an entry point to people with boats and practical small boat handling while dancing on the edge.

Re:"miniscule"

[adolf]

Thank you for the linked citation. Your posting is exemplary in ways that many others fail.

I note one obvious problem with your citation: Therein, it is proclaimed that there are fans of Oracle.

Who are these "fans"? Please elaborate.

Re:"miniscule"

[timeOday]

Okay, from what I'm reading here, this sounds like a gross over-reaction and a lot of rich old people taking shit way, way, way too seriously --

Have you heard about the covenants in gated communities? (Hope you don't want to ride a scooter!) You are talking about a bunch of rich guys. Their self-appointed function in life is to tell other people what to do, because they know better. The Augusta National golf club just started admitting blacks in 1990 and women just last year . Let us ponder on that for a moment.

Re:"miniscule"

[Anonymous Coward]

Hell, I'm an Oracle employee, and while I could not care less about Larry's giant penis-boat if I tried, I'm nonetheless overjoyed that they got caught.

Re:"miniscule"

[whoever57]

It's all supposed to boil down to how well one can design and build a boat (that's matched evenly with others) and then how well can one sail it.

The AC45 class (the type of boat in which this rule violation occurred) is supposed to be a manufacturer-supplied one-design boat. In this class, it should come down to only how well the boats are sailed -- the boats themselves should be identical.

Re:"miniscule"

[Anonymous Coward]

"why?"

Perhaps it has nothing to do with the weight, but some other property of the fill. eg: extra stiffness, vibration dampening, etc

Re:"miniscule"

[Anonymous Coward]

So many of us feel the same way.

Re:"miniscule"

[Anonymous Coward]

So big business is bending the rules just a tiny bit to get an advantage - what is new here?

Re:"miniscule"

[deathguppie]

The "king post" is what keeps the bow sprit from moving aft when pressure from the sail is added to it. The only reason for adding weight to it in this situation is if the bow happened to be rising to quickly. The rules imply that any wing shape added to the keel/centerboard must stay in the same angle/plane for the duration of the race. Designers skipped this rule by creating a moveable lifting plane on the bow of the boat. Tilting this plane lifts the boat up off of the water. However, this is a balancing act. It takes a lot of skill and design compitence to create and run one of these rigs. The NZ team was the first to figure out the cheat, and everyone else has been playing catch up. Team Oracles boat designed by Paul Burke, was not designed with the lifting planes originally intended. In this case some of the team members took it upon themselves to level the feild by adding weight to keep the bows from popping up to quickly and losing control of when they would and would not plane on the hydrofoils. It is a bit picky, but those people involved knew well what they were doing and went through lengths to cover it up. If they had just put a hunk of lead up there, judges would probably just have said "hey you can't do that".. but instead it was found buried purposely put there. That is pretty much willfull defiance of the rules. I'm an american shipwright from the northwest where these boats are built, so I'm definately on the US side.. but I see the significance of the decision, both ways.

Re:"miniscule"

[fahrbot-bot]

So why the angry rich people hating on Oracle? As far as I can tell, They're angry and running about calling it "cheating" over what appears to be a simple case of not understanding the horribly dense and overly-complicated rules, in a new ship class that just debuted this year.

Well... As mentioned in this article:

The America’s Cup, dating to 1851, might be both the oldest and quirkiest trophy competition in international sports. The winner of the trophy gets to set the parameters for the next competition — when, where and what kind of boats. There is no governing body to guide regularity.

Ellison won in Valencia, Spain, in 2010, ...

Therefore, Larry Ellison - aka Oracle - gets to make the rules, which they, themselves, then violated... Kind of a dick move, even for Larry. Or perhaps I'm incorrect; in any case, the America's Cup is a just very rich sport for very rich people who, apparently, have nothing better on which to spend their time and money.

Re:"miniscule"

[viperidaenz]

Russell Coutts already beat Dennis Connor 0-5 back in 1995 when he sailed for Team New Zealand.
Dennis hasn't won anything since 1988.

Re:"miniscule"

[sjames]

Even among rich asshats Oracle and Ellison stand out as rich asshats.,/p

Re:"miniscule"

[lxs]

That is the most puzzling part of this: why? any advantage would be far too small to make any difference to the outcome of a race.

It doesn't matter. It's the rules and rules are to be obeyed at all cost. That's what's so great about sports. It's like an old peoples home for authoritarian blowhards.

Re:"miniscule"

[lxs]

They got caught.

Re:"miniscule"

[Sardaukar86]

It's more like Auckland vs Wellington.

All is as it should be then. :)

Re:"miniscule"

[Anonymous Coward]

It's an aristocratic hobby for east coast snobs

Which is a terribly US-centric remark for someone claiming to care about the rest of the world. There is more to life outside the US than international crises you know. Also, looking down on people because they have more money is as bad as looking down on people because they are poor. Luckily there are still plenty of good reasons to hate Larry Ellison.

Re:"miniscule"

[Berre]

I think you are getting your boats mixed up. The weight was added to the three AC45 boats, managed by OTUSA, not the AC72. The AC45 is a non-foiling, one design, manufacturer supplied class.

Re:"miniscule"

[oobayly]

Funnily enough, I think the reaction is spot on. Sailing has always been a self-penalising sport - if you infringe somebody you do your penalty turns (or whatever is in the instructions), otherwise you end up in a protest and that eats into valuable drinking time. It sends out a message that there is zero space for cheating.

Such as it is though, I'm a computer geek, and the only thing I understand is performance. And everything I've read is that the change was tiny, and would probably have less effect on the performance of the ship than whether one of the teammates ate at McDonald's and forgot to crap after. No, I'm perfectly serious -- it seems that all this hub-a-bub amounts to someone having nailed a few ounces of metal to some part of the ship and it would have next to no impact on the ship's performance. So from an engineering and sport performance perspective... it's a tempest in a teapot.

As for the performance, I can see why you think extra weight is a bad thing, and normally it is, however putting it forward is (almost) always performance enhancing - when racing we have to keep the cushions on the boat in their normal places, and not put them in the bow cabin because that'd be illegal under the rules. What the "repairs" also did was to adjust the length of the kingpin, and would have increased the rig tension - the stiffer the boat the better. So I'm afraid your NASCAR comparison falls over.

What these guys did was akin to being caught hacking while at work as a Sysadmin - they've effectively banned themselves from the industry for very little gain, and I pity (not feel sorry for) them - they've fucked up their careers and their reputations. It tends to be the derided sports like sailing, cricket and rugby that deal with cheating swiftly and harshly. On the whole it works well - we don't get much cheating going on.

Okay, from what I'm reading here, this sounds like a gross over-reaction and a lot of rich old people taking shit way, way, way too seriously

I feel the exact same way about the (English) Premier Football League - blokes are paid £30,000 a week to kick a football around and fall over when tackled - it's pathetic. However, the only reason you'd find me reading a tech website reading about football would be to get an insight into it, and I certainly wouldn't waste my time telling people how I felt about them - it's pointless and just makes you look like you've a chip on your shoulder.

I'm sure you were trying to be funny with the "doo-hicky mc-shippy" thing, but it really does make you look as if you're not only proud about not knowing what you're talking about, but also bitter. Ah the penis thing - reminds me of something;

A man walks into a feminist book shop, and spends a while looking from shelf to shelf. The woman behind the counter says "can I help you". He replies that he's looking for the humour section.
"Oh" she says, "we don't have one of those".

Re:"miniscule"

[Anonymous Coward]

In this competition, Oracle are the asshatiest of the rich asshats.

TFTFY.

Re:"miniscule"

[AmiMoJo]

That is the most puzzling part of this: why? any advantage would be far too small to make any difference to the outcome of a race.

Rules in competitive sport have to be strictly enforced or teams would simply try to get away with all sorts of things and then argue that they have no real effect. F1 suffers from that to some degree, although it used to be worse than it is now.

Re:"miniscule"

[Mikkeles]

... and (what's really shocking) penalized!

Re:"miniscule"

[drinkypoo]

Well, it's possible that I misunderstood some stuff I read in the article about the augmented graphics being used in America's Cup in IEEE Spectrum, but I think this is why (excerpt from linked article):

Although it is among the oldest of sporting events, the Americaâ(TM)s Cup has embraced change far more quickly than other major sports, because each winning team takes over not just the trophy but the event itself. It can change the venue and type of boat, redefine the course, and completely rewrite the rules for the competition, with the agreement of the challenger. For example, racers used enormous and costly J-class yachts, typically about 38 meters in length, in the 1930s, then switched to the smaller and cheaper 12-meter class of boats, typically about 20 meters long, after World War II.

In this yearâ(TM)s contest, Oracle Team USA, founded by software billionaire Larry Ellison, is the defender of the Americaâ(TM)s Cup. (As of mid-July, the challenge races among teams from Italy, New Zealand, and Sweden were under way.) A brash entrepreneur whose database company disrupted business computing in the 1980s and who is today the head of the worldâ(TM)s third-largest software vendor (behind only Microsoft and IBM), Ellison isnâ(TM)t shy about betting big on new technologies. So itâ(TM)s no surprise that Ellisonâ(TM)s Americaâ(TM)s Cup defense will introduce the most radical changes ever.

This year's America's Cup has the most stringent requirements EVAR and therefore it's exceptionally offensive to see the people who penned the requirements fuck them up.

Re:"miniscule"

[Skater]

Ellison and his friends sure do have a fucked up sense of priorities racing their damned yachts in the midst of an international crisis. A pox on all their houses I say.

I'm curious to hear what you think Ellison should do about the Syria situation. Convince them to install Oracle and hope the fees bring them to their knees?

Re:"miniscule"

[oobayly]

s/kingpin/king post/

Possible Freudian slip there.

Re:"miniscule"

[Christopher_G_Lewis]

And then lied about it. That's the kicker. Of the five that were caught.one was given a warning, one was banned for the first four AC races, and three were banned from this AC.

Further, three of the offenders are being sent to their national sailing organization with a recommendation of no further action, but two of them are being sent back for further punishment with the declaration of lying and knowingly modifying the boats. Because each of these sailors sails under the international racing rules, and are being charged with "[a] gross breach of a rule and good sportsmanship" they are going to get the hammer. There is precedence in sailing (sorry, no linkage) that these two guys could be banned from competing for years. And this is *all* racing, from the AC and Olympics and club beer can racing. This is the equivalent of A-Rod being told he can't play ball anywhere in the world, including his church softball league. The closest analogy is the banning for life of the Chicago Black Sox.

So don't think this is a trivial situation, these guys will probably never race professionally ever again in their lives.

Re:"miniscule"

[TheCarp]

These boats are heavily heavily instrumented and tested - it was also not just one boat. I think that maybe they figured out that doing this was an advantage of some sort and thought they could get away with it. It's being made to sound really miniscule but one cannot help but wonder why they did it and then even denied having done it after being caught.

True but, boats are not designed by their crew either. Crew are typically not engineers, and its not unheard of for people in general to become convinced that something works or has greater advantage than it really does, without doing what an engineer would do and actually figuring out the expected real effect.

So its possible that it could both A. Make little to no difference and B. The crew believed it made a significant difference (which would explain hiding it)

It could even be that someone saw the rule, figured it must confer advantage and then tried to guesstimate how much weight he needed/could get away with, and used an amount that was enough to get caught but not enough to make a difference.

Or Internet meme style, someone else saw the rule, made an overly specific statement based on it like "You know adding even 5 lbs of weight can be enough to change the outcome of a race", some second person repeated it, and it got back to one of these crew members who took it as gospel.

In the end it doesn't matter so much but, I have no trouble with the idea that they could be both dishonest and hold incorrect technical ideas, while otherwise being excellent sailors.

Re:"miniscule"

[Anonymous Coward]

If you were to poll around for "the best car in the world," you might well come up with one made by a company founded by Kiwis.

Re:"miniscule"

[PortHaven]

I believe the AC45'sf or the Cup have foils now.

But the real point is, Oracle is already IN the America's Cup. So there is really no gain from cheating. (Where as the competitors winning would gain the challenge right.)

I am thinking that they were experimenting to see how the AC45's performed differently with the various weights so as to leverage that with the AC72 - which can be modified.

Re:"miniscule"

[Creedo]

Yet one may readily and enjoyably participate in small class boat races at a local sailing club, often for no more money than just showing up and offering to crew.

There are even racing boats designed to be built for little money, yet still offering rules for competition. My personal favorite is the Puddle Duck Racer.

Re:"miniscule"

[Richy_T]

It's only an international crisis because the anointed one left his ass hanging out.

Re:"miniscule"

[Anonymous Coward]

We race our "yacht." It is 22 feet long 47 years old and cost $2500 with trailer and auxiliary motor, ready to race. We both work hard for a living, one of us on night shift. We give a shit. When the "rich asshats" were not sailing because of "dangerous" winds, a bunch of working class folks across the Bay were getting cold wet and scared and having the time of our lives in our championship races. Yeah and as for war, my kids and I got our pictures in the Chron in the Iraq protest parades when a lot of /.rs were in diapers.

Re:"miniscule"

[hey!]

As far as I can tell, They're angry and running about calling it "cheating" over what appears to be a simple case of not understanding the horribly dense and overly-complicated rules....

Well, if you're rich enough to play the game, you can afford to pay somebody to read the rules carefully. That's how *all* rich guy games are played -- litigation, for example. If your lawyer screws up reading one of the laws you and your rich buddies have drafted, you lose.

Re:"miniscule"

[CodeBuster]

I'm curious to hear what you think Ellison should do about the Syria situation.

How about avoiding conspicuously costly and indulgent hobbies in public while the world burns?

Re:"miniscule"

[CodeBuster]

It's only an international crisis because the anointed one left his ass hanging out.

You'll get no argument from me in favor of President Obama. The man is arrogant, insincere and naive with a marvelous ability to speak glibly while in fact saying little or nothing. This is what happens when you put a smart young Harvard lawyer in charge of actually making important decisions on important matters in a timely fashion. Right or wrong the President must decide and that is the one thing that this President refuses to do: D-E-C-I-D-E. He waits for input from everyone, dragging out the decision out for months or even years, and by the time he does make a half baked response it's too late and the consequences of inaction are already upon us. President Bush the younger, love him or hate him, was at least able to decide and that's no small part of what it means to be President. We the People elect the President to make tough decisions, not to endlessly evade them with flowery language and inaction bordering on impotence.

Re:"miniscule"

[Anonymous Coward]

actually thats so crazy it just might work!

Larry Ellison, for PEACE!

Re:"miniscule"

[Skater]

...while you post on Slashdot? Shouldn't you be out doing something too, then?

How do I?

[Fnord666]

How do I moderate an article as off topic?

Re:How do I?

[cold fjord]

Two choices. Get it while it is in the submission queue and vote it down, or don't post in it if it becomes a story on the front page.

Re:How do I?

[Anonymous Coward]

Is it too late to do the latter?

Re:How do I?

[whoever57]

Two choices. Get it while it is in the submission queue and vote it down,

Submitter here. Based on this submission, I don't think voting makes a difference. It went from submission to front page so quickly that few people could have voted on it.

Re:How do I?

[Anonymous Coward]

I voted it down as off-topic. I suppose "News for nerds, stuff that matters" is too vague, but in this case should have applied.

Re:How do I?

[jmhobrien]

delete from articles where topic'news for nerds' and topic'stuff that matters';

Re:How do I?

[c0lo]

Two choices. Get it while it is in the submission queue and vote it down,

Submitter here. Based on this submission, I don't think voting makes a difference. It went from submission to front page so quickly that few people could have voted on it.

Possible explanation: slow new day, Soulskill must do something to earn his living, but... do you really expect her/him to start searching for more relevant news?

Re:How do I?

[lxs]

That tagline got retired years ago grandpa. It's the new Slashdot here. The nerds are all grown up now. We have pipe and slippers and use them unironically while reading the morning paper and dreaming of yachts.

Re:How do I?

[bluefoxlucid]

Have you ever actually analyzed the engineering requirements for a good boat? Oh sure, rednecks love those power boats with a V10 Dodge Viper engine driving some screws by brute force in the most inefficient way possible; but have you ever actually looked at boats?

Let's put it this way: The Chinese Junk is the best boat ever made. It's harder to sail than a modern sail boat, but functionally superior when handled properly. It was the inspiration for sealed partitions--thousands of years ago you could sink a boat by holing it, and then the Europeans found out that the Chinese put a bunch of rooms in the boat and made it possible to seal them so you'd only take on so much water. They started storing rum in some of the partitions. The rigging on the sails allows for better agility and faster sailing in all winds--including directly into the wind.

Modern boats have surpassed the junk in some respects and trailed it in others. They're easier to sail and faster in some conditions; they're designed to hold level and sail more efficiently than old models, but these adaptations can go back to the junk easily (the main difference in a Junk vs a modern boat is its sail rigging); they're made of better materials that decrease drag and improve balance and handling, allowing for straighter and faster sailing and less risk of capsizing; and so on.

All in all, in thousands of years of engineering, we've managed to make some improvements and some trade-offs... very little in the way of actual advancement. Not only is it hard to engineer a ship that can sail and sail quickly, but it's hard to pilot one. It's hard to maintain one. You have to deal with wind going the wrong way and then you have to manipulate the sails to harness power from the wind and directly turn that into driving force--you're not turning a turbine, you're catching the wind going east and making the boat go northwest. It's not even as simple as cutting in and then turning and dropping out; the goal is to keep as much wind in your sails as possible--to pull in the full of the wind 100% of the time while sailing directly in the opposite direction from where the wind is trying to push you. Not very easy.

It's a huge, huge engineering problem. It's complex and these are fairly amazing machines. But by all means, go ahead and go out there with a few two-by-fours and some wax and a tarp and build yourself a top-tier sailboat, and see how quick you can cut across the harbor. Make sure the coast guard's there too; your mommy might need to come pick you up when your little boat sinks.

Re:How do I?

[Creedo]

But by all means, go ahead and go out there with a few two-by-fours and some wax and a tarp and build yourself a top-tier sailboat, and see how quick you can cut across the harbor. Make sure the coast guard's there too; your mommy might need to come pick you up when your little boat sinks.

Heh, substitute the wax with some West Systems epoxy, and it sounds like a plan! Some of the best sailing memories I have are building and sailing plywood and 2x4 boats with my kids.
I've seen a lot of small boats with junk rigs. I've never used one myself, as I generally stick with a lateen or bermuda rig for my personal boats. My dad seems fascinated by them, though, so I imagine I'll end up building one at some point.

Re:How do I?

[bluefoxlucid]

Junk rigging is a lot harder to sail than regular rigging, from what I've read. Regular rigging handles good, common winds much easier; but you can squeeze some extra out of junk rigging and you can handle certain less common conditions a good bit better than with more modern rigs.

This is essentially like saying that modern guitar amps let you do all kinds of DSP modeling with switches and knobs; but you can do a lot more by studying up on EE and taking a soldering iron to an old tube amp, if you want to build a few mildly complex circuits. There's a reason we have modern rigging. Not the same difference as a manual versus automatic transmission--same concept, but not the same magnitude. Driving a stick shift is an overnight skill; sailing a junk is a major skill that's going to take you a lot of time and experience to get up to a worthwhile level.

Modern sails are practical. They have practical superiority over junks, which have technical superiority. Practical superiority is important. Still, you have to consider: all of this just highlights the engineering challenges present in building and utilizing an efficient, effective, and practical sail boat. It's not a napkin duct taped to a popsicle stick.

Re:How do I?

[Creedo]

all of this just highlights the engineering challenges present in building and utilizing an efficient, effective, and practical sail boat. It's not a napkin duct taped to a popsicle stick.

Definitely. I find that a lot of boaters I interact with simply don't appreciate the art and science behind a good sailboat and the sport of sailing itself. I find sailing(and sailboat building) to be interesting from the spectrum of people you meet. There are people sailing on every budget, and with all sorts of goals. This means that there is no "best sailboat." Going gunkholing down the delta puts a completely different set of demands on a boat than bluewater cruising or lake racing, for example. It's a pity that, judging from the comments on this story, a lot of people think that sailing, and even yachting in general, are just a rich person's sport.

Re:How do I?

[whoever57]

Let's put it this way: The Chinese Junk is the best boat ever made. It's harder to sail than a modern sail boat, but functionally superior when handled properly.

I think that you will have to define the functions that you think are important for that to be true. Look at the boats used in the Vendee Globe: planing keelboats sailed by one person. Far, far faster than any Chinese Junk. So, clearly, speed is not a function that you think is important.

You say that like Oracle isn't

[Anonymous Coward]

Rich, or an asshat, failtroll.

The only thing cool about this article...

[jesseck]

The only thing cool about this article is the pictures of the sailboats in the linked stories. Especially the one about the "Amazing AC72 Boats". I didn't realize a sailboat could get up out of the water like that- that is some impressive engineering.

Re:The only thing cool about this article...

[whoever57]

Google "foiling moth video" and prepare to have your mind blown with what can be done with a lot less money!

Re:The only thing cool about this article...

[nullchar]

I don't know if those are "sailboats" when they ride on hydrofoils. It's not like you could carry passengers or cargo or do much transoceanic exploring in those craft.

They're still marvels of engineering though and anything that fast powered by the wind is pretty neat.

Re:The only thing cool about this article...

[BLKMGK]

Wind powers them so of course they're sailboats. You could scale this up but there are powered foils for actually moving cargo.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5DRUsuOTMHQ

Re:The only thing cool about this article...

[Anonymous Coward]

The only thing cool about this article is the pictures of the sailboats in the linked stories. Especially the one about the "Amazing AC72 Boats". I didn't realize a sailboat could get up out of the water like that- that is some impressive engineering.

Those there are not real sailboats they are inherently unstable floating monstrosities of fiberglass and carbon fibre controlled by soulless computers constantly telling otherwise clueless humans what needs adjusting in order to go as fast as possible.

Re:The only thing cool about this article...

[erikkemperman]

Thanks for sharing, that's pretty awesome

Re:The only thing cool about this article...

[wonkey_monkey]

You could scale this up but there are powered foils for actually moving cargo.

And passengers.

Re:The only thing cool about this article...

[Sardaukar86]

controlled by soulless computers constantly telling otherwise clueless humans what needs adjusting in order to go as fast as possible.

Yeah, that seems like a perfectly rational explanation for why these teams are spending $BIG on hiring and retaining experienced skippers, grinders, etc..

Re:The only thing cool about this article...

[Anonymous Coward]

American tennis:

Whoooosh
hsoooohW

....

Whoooosh
hsoooohW

Audience reaction: Yawn, boring.

Re:The only thing cool about this article...

[Anonymous Coward]

As I moderated I have to post AC, but you touched on a thought that has been missed in this thread and this specific competition.

When the boats were actual sailboats, not these Winged, foiled, very high speed wind powered boats, there was a need for a talented crew and experienced tactician on board to process real time information of wind strength, direction/shifts, and wave conditions. Computers were (for the most part) not allowed other then passive data reporting tools. It took 11 (or more) sailors to make an AC boat go at top performance in all conditions; conditions that ranged from almost dead calm to hull pounding 25 kts and 6-10 ft seas.

Today we have these amazing technological marvels that are not so much sailboats in the traditional sense, but winged foil boats that happen to use wind for power. They also rely much on active computer systems along with the passive data reporting. Like the modern jet fighter which requires a computer to fly, the AC72 boats move at such speeds that humans cannot really keep up with the changes without enhancement. the weather requirements are such that when it gets interesting, these boats have to pack up and go back to the harbor. How far away is this competition from just using remote control and sophisticated computers to really drive the boat, humans optional.

What ever this is today, it is not the America's Cup. Coots started the trend (sailing for Alinghi...I mean the Swiss), but the rest followed by bending, then just ignoring the intent of the original Deed. As another post mentioned, two Kiwi's are skippering these boats (though one should be a fake US citizen). There as one skipper that can from Australia, sailed for his country and lost, became Japanese and sailed for his "country" (and lost), then became a US Citizen and sailed for his "country (and lost). That was just the skipper. Gee Wiz, go fast, shiny toys can capture the eye for a moment, but what made this something to watch was when it took more then technology to win. I have sailed for most my life, I have no plans to watch this contest. However, I am glad Oracle got slapped hard.

Re:The only thing cool about this article...

[PortHaven]

Really, no computers on Moth boats. And their initial designs date back to the 1930s. Granted they've been heavily modified with trapeze, outriggers and hydrofoils. In recent years...but that's called "advancement", oh, no computers on those btw.

Re:The only thing cool about this article...

[PortHaven]

*yawns*

If you think crew and skipper don't matter on these new boats. You are seriously mistaken.

Re:The only thing cool about this article...

[nullchar]

I rode on a powered hydrofoil ferry in 2007.

It will be seen if this can scale to large/heavy sailboats...

Get Past The Bucks

[wrackspurt]

America's Cup

The history and prestige associated with the America's Cup attracts not only the world's top sailors and yacht designers but also the involvement of wealthy entrepreneurs and sponsors. It is a test not only of sailing skill and boat and sail design, but also of fund-raising and management skills.

It's still sailing at its best and sailing is one of the most graceful and productive things we've ever done. The yachts are elegant, no matter your hatred for the rich who own and sail them.

Re:Get Past The Bucks

[c0lo]

America's Cup

The history and prestige associated with the America's Cup attracts not only the world's top sailors and yacht designers but also the involvement of wealthy entrepreneurs and sponsors. It is a test not only of sailing skill and boat and sail design, but also of fund-raising and management skills.

It's still sailing at its best and sailing is one of the most graceful and productive things we've ever done. The yachts are elegant, no matter your hatred for the rich who own and sail them.

If you are speaking of the yachts in this race, I tend to agree. If you are speaking of yachts in general... I find some utterly ugly.

Re:Get Past The Bucks

[BLKMGK]

Can be fairly dangerous too! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cRW21FubyY4

These boats have hit 50MPH on the water - not KNOTS, MPH! That's some pretty serious speed from just the wind. Really interesting stuff I think ad I'm far from a boater.

Re:Get Past The Bucks

[whoever57]

These boats have hit 50MPH on the water - not KNOTS, MPH!

Uh, you know that 50 knots is faster than 50 MPH, right?

Re:Get Past The Bucks

[whoever57]

Can be fairly dangerous too! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cRW21FubyY4

Not can, is dangerous

Re:Get Past The Bucks

[PPH]

I prefer one design racing. Not so dependent on outspending your opponents, since everyone gets the same boats. So it comes down to selecting a team, training, tactics, etc.

Re:Get Past The Bucks

[Russ1642]

Knots are around 15% faster than mph.

Re:Get Past The Bucks

[PortHaven]

Sailing yachts are usually elegant. Motor yachts are often ugly barges.

Re:Get Past The Bucks

[PortHaven]

Hey goofball...

Larry Ellison brought it back to one-design. That's what the AC45/AC72 are all about. After the last foreign winner tried to create a monstrosity. (Actually it was a rather nifty monohull design) and then Mr. Ellison stepped in with his trimarand.

So Larry Ellison did you a big favor by returning to a standardized class.

FYI, not sure what if this was cheating or testing. Oracle is already in the America's Cup race. So nothing to be gained by cheating. I think they were trying to see how weight placement affected the 45s so they knew how to balance their 72 better.

Re:Get Past The Bucks

[BLKMGK]

Yeah, true I do. I just hear knots and for some reason always think it's slower lol. One of the things I learned when they were showing these boats they did the MPH and knots and yeah MPH was faster.

Re:Get Past The Bucks

[BLKMGK]

Yeah, i know - I didn't want to link to the video about the guy's death and the vid I linked was about the Oracle boat. 50MPH on water with the possibility of the boat flipping and pinning you is fairly scary. That water isn't exactly warm either!

News for nerds. Stuff that matters.

[Anonymous Coward]

double fail.

Yacht OS

[Neo-Rio-101]

We've started calling Solaris "Yacht OS" in our IT department.

Competition

[gmhowell]

A friend who played lacrosse in college had this to say: "if you ain't cheatin', you ain't tryin'".

He got that from wrestling.

[NotSoHeavyD3]

Eddie Guerrero to be specific. Other sayings they have about cheating include "Win if you can, lose if you must but always cheat.", "If at first you don't succeed, cheat.", "Anything worth fighting for is worth cheating for.", and "I cheat because I care"

Re:He got that from wrestling.

[gmhowell]

Possible, but unlikely: I heard this witticism a year before (according to Wikipedia) Eddie's pro career started.

Is it possible...

[istartedi]

Is it possible to give a negative fuck about something?

At any rate, I care this much -->

What, you can't see that? Here it is magnified several thousand times:

Re:Is it possible...

[ndrw]

Wait, hold on, I've magnified it a billion times:

Still entirely invisible. Fuck this topic.

Re:Is it possible...

[wonkey_monkey]

Is it possible to give a negative fuck about something?

You cared enough to post instead of just moving along to the next article. Sorry if this one didn't interest you, your lordship, I'm sure the editors will try harder to please thee next time.

Let me be the first to say....

[TheInternetGuy]

HaHa

The Vendee Globe is far more interesting.

[Anonymous Coward]

Solo, nonstop, without assistance, around the world.

It takes a lot of courage, strength of will, and serious sailing skill
to even get to the starting line.

I consider it the most impressive sporting event in the world, bar none.

http://www.vendeeglobe.org/en/

Re:The Vendee Globe is far more interesting.

[z0idberg]

Courage, will, sailing skill.....and a shitload of Australian taxpayers money to be rescued in the far Southern Ocean when things go pear shaped.

Sailors who take on the Southern Ocean for the thrill of it should come with a "Do Not Rescue" message on the beacons. Or they should self-fund their rescue missions in advance.

Re:The Vendee Globe is far more interesting.

[Anonymous Coward]

The Australian press made a stink about that a few years back. The Australian military's reply was "You can't buy training like this. The actual experience is priceless." And then they pointed at how the rescue a couple years previous compared to the one they'd just completed- quite the difference in effectiveness.

Re:The Vendee Globe is far more interesting.

[z0idberg]

You have a source on that? I can't find that response reported anywhere.

Even if the Navy do appreciate it as a training exercise, I'm sure they could plan an exercise with similar benefits at at time that doesn't involve dragging the entire crew of a naval frigate away from leave with their families in the week before Christmas.

http://www.defence.gov.au/budget/08-09/dar/vol1/ch09_07.htm

Re:The Vendee Globe is far more interesting.

[z0idberg]

*Destroyer not frigate

Re:The Vendee Globe is far more interesting.

[BitZtream]

Hum, when you are rescued, YOU ARE responsible for the costs. No different than the EMS or fire department calls in your local neighborhood. These are not free services in any part of the world I'm aware of.

Par for the course

[kriston]

It's par for the course.

Isn't this the same country that technically cheated with the advanced hull micro line hull treatment that won the cup back in the 1980s?

Re:Par for the course

[BLKMGK]

Do you have a citation? Google comes up empty on your terms

Re:Par for the course

[whoever57]

Isn't this the same country that technically cheated with the advanced hull micro line hull treatment that won the cup back in the 1980s?

Well, it was the same team that was found guilty of cheating for getting too close to their competitors during practice.

Re:Par for the course

[Anonymous Coward]

Try this one Stars and Stripes 87 (bucc5062)

Re:Par for the course

[kriston]

The technology was called "riblets" and was secretly applied to the hull of Stars and Stripes allowing them to win the 1986 Americas Cup. It also allowed the US to win its first rowing medal in many years at the 1984 Summer Olympics.

Technically, it was a cheat-to-win strategy in most people's opinions at the time. I thought everyone knew about this. Google and Wikipedia are not your friend.

More here: http://www.nasa.gov/centers/langley/news/factsheets/Riblets.html

And here: http://www.globalspec.com/reference/67396/203279/7-4-drag-reduction-by-riblets

Re:Par for the course

[BLKMGK]

Was this a modification that was outlawed or was it simply not covered by the rules? Most racers will push rules and unless the rules are specific they will get away with things. Smokey Yunick was famous for this :-)

Re:Par for the course

[kriston]

As with anything new, it was not covered by the rules. However, from a gentleman's perspective, it was clearly cheating. That's why I choose to use the concept of "technically cheating."

Re:Par for the course

[BLKMGK]

Well, I'd be surprised if they had nothing in the rules regarding hull paints or coatings - things like that which I'd have expected this to fall under. If they had nothing in the rules about coatings or surfaces then it's wide open and I'd call it legal and no fault of their own if no one else thought to try it...

If a yacht....

[whydavid]

If a yacht is penalized in the America's Cup races, and no one gives enough of a shit to notice, does it still make Larry Ellison cry like a greedy, emotional, hypercompetitive asshole?

Slashdot - the painful downhill slide

[Anonymous Coward]

Another off-topic and boring article from Slashdot.

Neither news for Nerds nor Stuff that Matters.

Re:Slashdot - the painful downhill slide

[Anonymous Coward]

What is more painful downhill slide are people considering this off-topic and that any topic they are not interested in as a sign of the end of Slashdot. The amount of design and engineering that goes into such sailboats should be more than enough to get any nerd's attention with interest in fluid dynamics or general high performance engineering. Sailing has a stereotype of being only affordable by rich people, yet so are high end cars, planes, and other tech toys that come up with more popular support here.

Yo! ORacle my BIG 10 inch

[Anonymous Coward]

record.Cheeterz gotsta cheets.

They thought it was like database metrics

[Chrisq]

They thought it was like database metrics. If you can't win weight the results.

No surprise from Oracle...

[Bazman]

..after all, isn't this what they've done with Java and MySQL?

This shouldn't be a problem

[wonkey_monkey]

As long as they post details of their modifications so the community can incorporate them into their own yachts, I don't see what the problem is.

Annoying event for San Francisco

[Animats]

San Francisco's hosting of this event was a big mistake. For an event that consists of two boats going round and round some can buoys, it seems to require way too much infrastructure. A mile of the San Francisco waterfront is full of Americas Cup tents, towers, and related crap.

Full jury decision

[Berre]

The full jury decision (including details of the modification) can be found here: http://noticeboard.americascup.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/JN117.pdf

So ...

[gstoddart]

So just like their benchmarks then? ;-)

I keed, I keed.

so THAT'S why the 48's been struggling!

[Anonymous Coward]

no wonder Jimmie Johnson's been so bad last few weeks - Chad Knaus has been moonlighting!!!

(that's actually funny for the 3 other /.-ers who get it)

The Big Silly is...

[PortHaven]

That Oracle is already guaranteed a position in the America's Cup race. So cheating doesn't really make a darn difference for them. The series was to pick the challenger.

But now here is what I think really happened. The America's Cup is not as tightly specified. They could add that weight if they wanted. I wager that someone on the team was experimenting with a theory on weight balance. Trying to see if having weight further up in the bow or amidships made any improvements.

This was unlikely to heve been done for cheating purposes. And it may not have even been realized that it was a violation.

***

In Laser class racers, tying the wrong not or using an extra piece of rope can be a disqualifier. Most wouldn't even realize they'd done something illegal.

What gain was to be found? I'm not sure cheating..

[PortHaven]

When you cheat, you usually do so to gain something. I'm not sure Team Oracle was really trying to chear here. You see, these little matches in the AC45 determine who will be the challenger. But Team Oracle is the defendent. So there is no need to place. For Team Oracle these races are for them to hone skills, gain a batter understanding of how these new designs work.

So what is gained by winning these races, for Team Oracle, nothing. (If it were the foreign teams then there was something to gain, the right of being the challenger.) But for Team Oracle only one win matters - the America's Cup.

So why do it? Why modify/add weight?

Because these are very knew designs and their handling and reactions are still knew. AC45s are strict class. The AC72 has a little bit more leeway for modifications. What I think happened, is that Oracle team members decided to see how different weight placement worked. If they discovered added wait before the mast, astern of the mast, or amidships improved handling. Then they would adjust their AC72 to reflect the weight placement (totally legal).

I think they just view this as an opportunity to run 4 different sailboats of the same design with just a few minor variances in weight balance. And evaluate the results. Which is rather different than "cheating".

Excessive penalty for the team

[linuxwrangler]

I've been watching almost every race and photographing them as well (http://www.flickr.com/photos/97903173@N03/collections/72157634780455306/).

The technology is amazing. Not only the boats but also the stuff that Stan Honey has cooked up for the live-view on TV (http://spectrum.ieee.org/consumer-electronics/audiovideo/the-augmented-reality-americas-cup)

Banning/penalizing the actual participants in the cheating is fine. But the America's Cup World Series was a warm-up for the real events and designed primarily to give the crews experience and to promote the sport throughout the world so the 2-race penalty makes no sense to me. It's sort of like finding a couple baseball players used a corked bat in the pre-season so you nullify the teams first 20 wins in the regular season.

Shocked I tells ya!

[Anonymous Coward]

That the Prince of Darkness would allow anything so nefarious comes as a shock to me.