Users Revolt Over Yahoo Groups Update

An anonymous reader writes "The new NEO format of Yahoo Groups is being rolled out to users and there is no option to go back. Users and moderators are posting messages asking Yahoo to go back to the old format. Yahoo is responding with a vanilla 'thank you for your feedback we are working to make it better' comment. Most posters are so frustrated that they just want the old site back. One poster writes 'Yahoo has effectively destroyed the groups, completely, themselves.'"

Comments

Re:Lesson not learned

[Anonymous Coward]

The thing is you have a service that fills all your needs, is free, and requires absolutely zero knowledge of how anything works.

Why wouldn't the average person want something like that, and why are there so few alternatives out there that do the job?

Re:Lesson not learned

[Anrego]

That's a silly answer for most non-technical users.

Ignoring the extra hassle of hosting, an open source project can head in a direction you don't like just as easily, and unless you are prepared to fork the product (which a non-technical user probably can't) or just let it stagnate in a soup of unpatched exploits, you are just as helpless.

Is this news?

[Lanterns]

When is there a major update to a platform without a "revolt"?

Re:Is this news?

[Mitchell314]

I didn't know yahoo had a dedicated enough following to have a revolt. I learn something new every Mercurial day.

Re:Is this news?

[Bill, Shooter of Bul]

Yahoo only has crazy dog lovers groups left. Check out the complaint.

"The home page is gone. People join my group to get photos of their dogs edited and honored by being posted on the group home page which is now GONE! Only ONE of the photos can be seen at ALL."

So these are the ones that complain...

While there are also other valid complaints, those are being fixed. I've used Yahoo groups and the past and it really kind of sucked. Glad to see they are working on it.

Re:Is this news?

[Hatta]

Remember when USENET allowed everyone to choose the platform with the look and feel they found most attractive and productive? This is why we have standard protocols. This is why we have clients and servers. This is why content and presentation should be strictly separated.

Ignoring your users is the new mantra

[onyxruby]

Ignoring your users is the new in thing for corporations. From Microsoft cancelling Technet to their lack of Start Menu to Apple's upcoming flattening of IOS to Mechwarrior's ignoring users being pissed about changes or Digg's substantial drop in users with their new version a while back.

The attitude seems to be "it doesn't matter how many users we lose or alienate, were right and your wrong". Once upon a time marketing departments measured their success by number of new users gained. Nowadays UI departments seem to measure their success by number of users they lose.

Re:Ignoring your users is the new mantra

[Anonymous Coward]

You forgot to end your sentence with a period.

Thank you for your feedback we are working to make it better.

Re:Ignoring your users is the new mantra

[Anonymous Coward]

The attitude seems to be "it doesn't matter how many users we lose or alienate, were right and your wrong". Once upon a time marketing departments measured their success by number of new users gained. Nowadays UI departments seem to measure their success by number of users they lose.

This, and Agile. Here's one from the Yahoo feedback page:

"Previous / Next links missing while reading messages and topics is now fixed!"

In the non-Agile days, we'd have a functional spec. If it's a message board, being able to navigate from the previous/next message is probably core functionality. It doesn't pass QA, it doesn't ship unless it's, you know, at least as functional as the old version.

In the Agile days, for some reason unbeknownst to any end user, something that basic didn't make it into the MVP. The end user doesn't matter. Somewhere, some Agilistard decided "Meh, it's in the backlog, we'll get it in the next sprint. It can wait a week or two."

If you have no userbase, the Agile concept of ship (garbage) early and ship (garbage) often even before you really have an MVP actually makes some sense. If you have a 6-month runway of capital before you go belly-up and start over (oh, I'm sorry, "pivot"), there's no point in wasting another month to get it right.

But if you already have a userbase, the developer-centric attitude of leaving what, to users, is core functionality in the backlog while you release half-assed stuff that merely shows off how good you are with AJAX, or how quickly your UX people can change the design from one week to the next, doesn't work. It's bad for your customer base, it alienates them, and it eventually drives them to your competitors.

But what do I know? I think discussion boards were a mostly-solved problem with USENET. (And discussion systems like /.'s actually works pretty well, although moderating something at Yahoo-sized scale is a difficult proposition, and utterly impossible for something like USENET where the platform isn't controlled by the hosting company.) Acknowledging that a problem has been largely solved and could use a little facelift isn't agile enough anymore. Better throw the whole codebase out, and re-invent it from scratch, poorly, and use the userbase as guinea pigs. Who cares if the business actually improves its product, so long as everyone in the development chain gets to tick off boes like "learned new framework" "developed new UI" and "implemented agile release process in old stodgy company" on their CVs before they move on to their next jobs.

Re:Ignoring your users is the new mantra

[TheSkepticalOptimist]

They are definitely NOT ignoring their users.

They are pandering to the emergence of the Idiot Elite.

Think of it, all those features could be argued as "power" features, which have been stripped out or dumbed down to pander to a growing populace of people too lazy or otherwise unable to figure out how to learn something a little more advanced than point and click.

I mean Microsoft pulled the start menu because ALL iOS and Android users are used to accessing apps by slapping a hairy knuckle against a grid these days, no fancy "tree" lists, categorizations or having to type to find something. Microsoft might have pissed off their power users, but guaranteed there are more people that actually like the Metro interface then the vocal minority that hate it. People are NOT complaining about the dumbed down simplicity of other Tablet OS'es these days.

So nerds, geeks, and dweebs do not rule the tech universe anymore, we are just along for the ride. We used to drive the market by wanting faster and better and more powerful in every generation, but eventually companies could not keep up and realized taking a large regressive step backwards made these products more accessible and desirable by the non-tech elite. Instead of upgrading to a new more powerful 16 core desktop, the idiot elite were dazzled by the simplicity of a tablet or phone with only a small fraction of the processing power and abandoned traditional computers, as they are with other services and games. People would rather fling a bird at pigs or harvest Smurfberries for 6 hours a day rather than exploring a world in an RPG or even getting out their aggressions in a state of the art FPS.

Every company today is crafting their services and products to pander to the Idiot Elite because they know they can profit more from them rather than trying to appease the power user. Consider the idea if an FPS like Crysis came out where you would have to buy your ammo with real world money. The GEEKS and NERDS would have revolted and the game would never be successful. However today the Idiot Elite are throwing millions of real world money at companies buying their fucking Smurfberries.

Companies are not ignoring their demographic, they are just beginning to realize how naive they are.

We lost, even Slashdot is slowly slipping into a social site where people would rather debate the qualities of cat breeds rather than ripping into the merits of a new CPU architecture.

No company makes a change to their service or product just to piss of customers, they do so because they are realizing there is a growing market of users that simply do not give a fuck!

Change is hard

[jelwell]

Change is hard for a lot of people. Yahoo Groups, unfortunately is stuck running some really ancient "forum" software that really isn't designed to be a forum at all. It's designed to be an email list. I use Yahoo Groups daily, and it really needs to incorporate modern features. Neo brings a lot of basic forum features to Yahoo Groups, like inline attachments. The people asking for the old format back, change is hard, embrace it and move forward. Ask Yahoo to fix bugs you find in Neo, that will be much better for the community than to continue being stuck in the old ways.
Joseph Elwell.

Re:Change is hard

[cascadingstylesheet]

Change is hard for a lot of people. Yahoo Groups, unfortunately is stuck running some really ancient "forum" software that really isn't designed to be a forum at all. It's designed to be an email list.

What is (or was) nice about Yahoo Groups was the way it blended email lists and forums. Some people like to use it one way, some the other, and some use it both ways.

Re:Change is hard

[Above]

All the people who only used the e-mail side of it just got their accounts deleted for "inactivity" since they never logged into Yahoo!, and thus never saw ads or otherwise generated revenue.

Group membership is dropping like a log with their effort to reclaim addresses.

Re:Lesson not learned

[jaymz666]

Why are there so few alternatives? Because egroups and onelist merged and yahoo bought them

Standard operating procedure

[orgelspieler]

Is there anything Yahoo! hasn't fucked up? First they killed Geocities; OK that one is probably not bad. Then they Bing-ified Flickr, with complete disregard for community input. Trust me, there was a lot of input, even though most of it has been disappeared. Then sports, which we recently read about. Now groups. No wonder that CEO of theirs won't let people work from home. She wants to personally see the look of agony and defeat on her employees tired, worn faces as she takes their favorite projects and warps them into a monstrous, blinged-out, totally useless pile of shit.

Yahoo

[TheSpoom]

I'm becoming convinced that Yahoo is the secret troll branch of Google.

same song different day

[themushroom]

The protests on Flickr after changes months ago had the same result: no changes, no apologies.
And just the other day /. published a story about protests when some other Yahoo page changed, same result: no change, no apologies.

People need to understand Yahoo is marching off the cliff to the beat of its own drummer, and complaints mean nothing to them.

You think Microsoft is good at corporate suicide?

[gestalt_n_pepper]

Well, try Yahoo! The comics page has gone from "intermittently updated" to "virtually unusable." The mail apps now make it almost impossible to delete email in any other way but one at a time. Good usable interfaces are being carefully and methodically destroyed.

Is there some committee at Microsoft and Yahoo that goes around finding anything that's simple, obvious and workable and making sure that it's made unusable as quickly as possible? How does this work? Have ex-congressman moved to the software industry?

Re:Lesson not learned

[Skynyrd]

Fact of the matter is, this is settled. You can make it hard for people to leech, but it will still happen, and there is nothing you can do about it. Those people are NOT your customers.

I run a small site that is mostly a personal photo blog. I keep an eye on the logs, and when one of my images gets a lot of hits, it's obviously being leeched. I just replace it with Goatse or something similar. If it happened often enough, I'd automate it.

Re:Lesson not learned

[Anonymous Coward]

Image leaching isn't having your images taken and put up elsewhere on the web, which is a pointless to fight against if anyone wants your images bad enough. Image leaching is people linking and embedding images hosted on your server on their website. They are not only using your images, but more importantly, using your bandwidth to host their site. Of course the those people are not your customers, but they are continually using your resources, as in actual resources you don't get back when used. There are straightforward solutions to the problem, but it is yet another thing on a large pile of stuff that comes up with maintaining your own website.

Re:Lesson not learned

[PCM2]

If you're not charging people for your images, then leeches aren't stealing anything.

Except your bandwidth. Image leeches typically do things like linking your images to their MySpace page, or using them as the background image for some other website full of ad spam links, so you end up paying for their site. It wouldn't be so bad if they just "stole" your images by downloading them and using them themselves. The problem is that they don't download your images.

Re:Lesson not learned

[FatdogHaiku]

Product stages:
- crap << current Yahoo Groups
- alpha
- beta
- pray
- live!

Unless you are Google, Then it goes

Product stages:
- crap
- alpha
- beta
- beta
- beta
- beta
- beta
- beta
- beta
- beta
- beta
- beta
- Product Canceled due to excessive usefulness or popularity!

Re:Lesson not learned

[istartedi]

If it is on the internet, it will be stolen. Deal with it.

I didn't care about non-commercial copying of the images. It was the bandwidth usage that bothered me. My site could go down and/or I could be charged if exceeded. If I was running my own server, I'd have to get hotter hardware to handle it. That's the theft that was bothering me, not copyright violations.

Yeah, stuff gets stolen on the Internet. I DID deal with it--by no longer hosting my own web site. In fact, I frequently saw leeching from my Flickr account, and it didn't bother me one bit. I was like, "fine, now it's Yahoo's problem"; but I realized I was trading one problem for another and it ultimately bit me. On to the next trade. Get it?

Re:Lesson not learned

[FatLittleMonkey]

Then there's the Microsoft release cycle:
- Crap
- Alpha
- Crap
- Alpha
- Crap
- Alpha
- Crap