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One Man's Battle With Patent Trolls

farrellj writes "Dovden Investments, labelled as a Patent Troll by many, got more than they bargained for when they went after Ottawa developer Larry Dunkelman. Mr. Dunkelman wrote BusBuddy, an app that takes GPS and scheduling data from OC Transpo, the local city bus service, and predicts when the bus you are waiting for will actually arrive. But when Dovden came along and asked for $10,000, as a 'licensing' fee, Dunkelman got angry, and decided to fight. 'They claim to have patented the method of using GPS location on vehicles to determine when they will arrive at a certain place,' Dunkelman said. 'This applies to buses, package delivery, airplanes, trains - any business that employs a fleet of vehicles in which they track their location to arrive at a certain place, is open to this patent troll.' Dunkelman hired an intellectual property lawyer and started chipping away at the company's claims. Dovden has since discontinued the suit and are now being chased by Dunkelman and his lawyer for legal costs."

40 of 159 comments (clear)

  1. Back under the bridge, troll!! by haruchai · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Well done, Larry. I hope more developers have a spine as stiff as yours.

    --
    Pain is merely failure leaving the body
    1. Re:Back under the bridge, troll!! by spamchang · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Make it a class action suit. Demand a list of everyone to whom Dovden has ever sent a threatening letter.

    2. Re:Back under the bridge, troll!! by FatLittleMonkey · · Score: 4, Funny

      I hope more developers have a spine as stiff as yours.

      It's the only thing that can carry the load of his enormous balls.

      --
      Science is all about firing a drunk pig out of a cannon just to see what happens.
    3. Re:Back under the bridge, troll!! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      the point of a class action suit wouldn't be to get everyone rich, it would be to make dovden hurt

    4. Re:Back under the bridge, troll!! by quacking+duck · · Score: 3, Interesting

      The developer of the X-Plane flight simulator is also fighting the patent troll suing him for using a Google-approved and provided API for verifying Android purchases. He's fighting using his own money too, which lawyers have advised could cost him $1.5 million even if he wins.

      They aren't the only dev who this troll is suing, though I believe they're one of the few who's actually big enough (barely) to mount a defence. Google has refused to offer legal or even token moral support for their developers, and the API is probably still in place in the latest version, a Trojan horse waiting to happen to other unsuspecting devs.

    5. Re:Back under the bridge, troll!! by crakbone · · Score: 4, Funny

      Sorry. IRS has prior art.

    6. Re:Back under the bridge, troll!! by Archangel+Michael · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Fixing Class Action lawsuits, and other similar torts would be easy.

      1) All Punitive damages are given to the state, to set up a compensation fund for victims, or to the General Fund.
      2) Lawyers fees are not generated by Punitive Damages, 100% of all Punitive damages goes to the Compensation or General Fund
      3) Actual Damages goes to the victims. 100% of them.
      4) Legal Damages/Fees goes to the lawyers. These can be based on either/both Actual Damages, or Punitive Damages, but shall not exceed a certain percentage (10% suggested) but could be less.

      This would take the "profit" motive of huge awards away from victims, and their lawyers. It would allow for juries to award punitive damages, to actually punish those that cause damages, while not rewarding victims with ridiculous windfall sums of money. These simple changes would help prevent lawsuit abuses. Especially in torts such as IP lawsuits. In the case of IP lawsuits, the one suing would actually have to show actual monetary "harm". This means they would have to have a working product/service or licensing scheme for their product. Sitting on a Patent and not making anything violates the whole idea of patents;

      To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries.

      When the system no longer "Promtes progress of science and useful arts" ... it is broken.

      --
      Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
    7. Re:Back under the bridge, troll!! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      With the side effect of making the lawyers filing the suit rich while the people actually damaged by Dovden's actions receive a pittance.

      Then they can choose to not join the class action and instead take direct action on their own (or do nothing).

      Also, having a class action judgement against the firm can give others certain types of legal leverage. In some cases someone who accepted a deal to "drop a lawsuit in return for payment and promise not to sue" may be able to use the class action judgement to get that previous agreement tossed out and press charges.
      In any event, it sends a big fat message to other potential patent trolls, which proactively helps others who have not yet been sued. It also makes it more likely people will resist patent trolls who use the extortion racket (pay us or we sue!).

      In any event, I fail to understand what your problem with the lawyers is. The ones representing the troll aren't getting much, if anything, and ruining their reputations to boot. If you don't want to hire a lawyer yourself then don't- but if you do then it's only fair that you're paying them for their expertise.

    8. Re: Back under the bridge, troll!! by haruchai · · Score: 2

      Clients win or lose, lawyers just get paid.

      --
      Pain is merely failure leaving the body
  2. Basic Math... by Luthair · · Score: 2

    Distance / Speed = Time

    Heck, we've probably been estimating our arrival times since we grew big enough brains to recognize a particular rock or tree.

    1. Re:Basic Math... by climb_no_fear · · Score: 5, Funny

      I dunno, if a saber-toothed tiger was chasing you, you probably cared a great deal about your arrival time at the nearest climbable tree or such.

    2. Re:Basic Math... by sjames · · Score: 5, Funny

      Only relatively speaking. Nobody much cared whether they became tiger poop at 4P.M or 5P.M. but arriving at the climbable tree before the tiger was of great interest.

    3. Re:Basic Math... by flyingfsck · · Score: 2

      Uhhh... Tigers can climb trees. Estimating the weight of a rock big enough to pin the tiger's tail, may have been more useful.

      --
      Excuse me, but please get off my Pennisetum Clandestinum, eh!
    4. Re:Basic Math... by RivenAleem · · Score: 3, Funny

      I was expecting, "There's an Ape for that"

    5. Re:Basic Math... by geekoid · · Score: 2

      But the rarely attack in trees, and trees are a better point to defend against a cat.

      They don't have a lot of leverage:
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EoGh1Nd86oI&noredirect=1

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    6. Re:Basic Math... by smooth+wombat · · Score: 2

      You're missing the point. One does need to make the calculation to see if they'll be arriving at the tree before or after your hunting partner. If it's before, no problems. If after, pick up the pace!

      --
      We will bankrupt ourselves in the vain search for absolute security. -- Dwight D. Eisenhower
  3. Courts should stamp this out by EuclideanSilence · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Dovden asked for $10,000. There was probably only a 1 in 1000 chance someone would fight and win. Dovden knew for certain that their patent wasn't innovative; this was no honest misunderstanding. Any damages less than $10000 * 1000 = $10,000,000 makes this a profitable business model.

    Any ruling fining Dovden less than $10,000,000 is not enough.

    1. Re:Courts should stamp this out by EuclideanSilence · · Score: 5, Insightful

      And I'm going to reply to myself. And every lawyer involved in sending these notices should lose their license.

    2. Re:Courts should stamp this out by jamesh · · Score: 5, Informative

      A customer of ours was recently sent an "about to call debt collectors" letter for an invoice for toner cartridges they hadn't bought. The scammer had done their homework - they had called previously claiming to be from the "federal government" doing a survey on printers so they knew exactly what type of toner the customer would have bought. We called the ACCC and were basically told that if money had actually been paid then we could try the feds and see if they would do anything, but otherwise they weren't going to do anything.

      The fact that the scammers were getting away with this sort of shit with basically no risk at all made me quite angry. Stories like TFA make me feel a little better about the world.

    3. Re:Courts should stamp this out by AK+Marc · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Yeah, same happened to me. Someone was doing a "dead relative" scam attempt on me, and I got info about them. Passed it to the FBI cybercrimes fraud division (or the group that indicated they were responsible, if there is no specific division for that), and they got back to me with the message "if you haven't actually lost money on it, go away. If you have lost money on it, you are an idiot, go away". So long as crimes aren't investigated because they are "inconvenient", we'll have escalation in crimes, in both severity and quantity.

    4. Re:Courts should stamp this out by Kaenneth · · Score: 5, Insightful

      They got teenagers with quarter ounces of weed to imprision, stop wasting their valuable property seizure time.

    5. Re:Courts should stamp this out by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Informative

      Did they send this invoice via the United States Postal Service? A Demonstrably untrue invoice?
      You sir were clearly not paying attention during the movie "The Firm".

      I believe that you or anyone else in receipt of such a communication should contact their USPS Mail Fraud team.
       

    6. Re:Courts should stamp this out by JosKarith · · Score: 2

      And the developer's wife should leave him and take him to the cleaners in the divorce courts.

      Wait... what were we talking about again?

      --
      'Don't worry' said the trees when they saw the axe coming, 'The handle is one of us.'
    7. Re:Courts should stamp this out by BenfromMO · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Police departments of all stripes can make more money for their departments through property seizure, so why would they waste time with actual criminals which actually costs them money?

      The second we allowed as a society police departments to confiscate individuals' wealth was the second we lost our way as a society. It does not help that tickets and other roadside violations are also money that goes to the local police department directly. And so we have police in this country whose jobs are directly depended on outside revenue streams and so their employers are no longer every citizen, but rather those who they imprison and fine. They are constantly looking for additional people to finance their jobs like that. And what does all of this money that they confiscate give them? Military level arms, body armor, and all sorts of little toys that make breaking into someone's house a quite large ordeal. So next time someone "swats you" you can thank the illegal confiscations and mountains of traffic violations that made it possible for semi-trained idiots to go around with military level machine guns and body armor.

    8. Re:Courts should stamp this out by geekoid · · Score: 2

      sigh.
      No. Go through the procedure the bar already has in place. They keep it up they loose their license. Possible civil issues.

      We need to put less people in jail, not more.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
  4. donation box by phantomfive · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Does he have a donation box? I've donated to causes much less worthy.

    --
    "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
  5. Go after the lawyers, too. by Ichijo · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Any lawyer who aids a patent troll ought to be disbarred.

    --
    Any sufficiently unpopular but cohesive argument is indistinguishable from trolling.
    1. Re:Go after the lawyers, too. by EuclideanSilence · · Score: 3, Interesting

      A lawyer should be allowed to defend any person, against any charge, against any evidence, without any fear of legal repercussion.

      I would prefer the more objective approach, "any lawyer who aids in sending out frivolous (read: obviously going to be overturned) patent notices should be disbarred."

      I imagine it wouldn't be impossible for something like that to find its way into some legislation.

    2. Re:Go after the lawyers, too. by wbr1 · · Score: 3, Insightful
      WE DO NOT NEED MORE LAWS!

      Felony conviction is cause for disbarment in most jurisdictions.

      If an attorney aids and abets fraud, extortion, or is criminally negligent in defending/prosecuting a case, then fucking charge and convict them of -that- crime. They will still be disbarred, and we will actually be prosecuting crimes that matter, instead of letting those with money and power flout the system so egregiously.

      --
      Silence is a state of mime.
    3. Re:Go after the lawyers, too. by wbr1 · · Score: 3, Insightful
      If a lawyer knowingly sends out C&D or settle or we'll sue letters for knowingly invalid or absent patents, it IS fraud and extortion. They willfully misrepresented facts to their clients (and their own) betterment. If the patent is valid, then no they attorneys did not break the law, and it is a symptom af a flawed patent system that needs repair.

      In neither case do we need more laws on the books.

      --
      Silence is a state of mime.
  6. Costs by Dachannien · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Are patent suit costs in Canada paid for by the losing party? This is one of the big problems in the US - each side usually pays its own costs, even when the patentee loses.

    1. Re:Costs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

      Serious answer here, IAAL in Canada. Yes, in Ontario the losing side pays costs to the winning side. However, "costs" is awarded according to procedures in the court rules, and it doesn't actually represent the literal legal costs of the winning party. Court awarded "costs" usually end up being around a third of actual legal costs, but it's still a penalty for the loser. Going by the summary (haven't read the original article yet), I imagine that Dovden will oppose costs because they unilaterally discontinued the action before the court could dismiss the action with costs awarded against them. A plaintiff discontinuing its action is usually seen by defendants as a good thing, so normally costs aren't awarded in these cases.

  7. Can someone explain... by multiben · · Score: 2

    IANAL as will be pretty evident from this confused series of questions, but from the article: 'They claim to have patented the method of using GPS location on vehicles to determine when they will arrive at a certain place,'

    So, did they patent it or not? And if they did, then who the hell approved it as a valid innovation???!
    If they didn't patent it then it's just a case of straight up fraud isn't it? Conversely, if they do actually hold this patent, then isn't just as clear cut that this poor guy is infringing it - no matter how ridiculous that seems? The article seems to suggest that they are now reviewing whether the patent is valid or not - but once a patent is granted doesn't that automatically mean it's valid too?

    1. Re:Can someone explain... by a.koepke · · Score: 2

      Just because a patent is granted doesn't mean it is valid, it just means you have paid some fees to register your "innovation". Unfortunately, the patent offices get a lot of applications and have been working in "rubber stamp" mode for quite a while. You put your application in, pay your fees and get a rubber stamp on it. Done. There is no real review of the validity of the patent anymore, that stuff just took to long.

      The patent office's approach is to approve almost everything and let the lawyers, judges and courts sort out what is valid or not.

      --


      (\(\
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      *This is the cute bunny virus, please copy this into your sig so it can spread
    2. Re:Can someone explain... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Yes. The system is horribly broken.

      I suggest a fix: Every patent you are granted is free. Every patent that you are denied costs you. The cost is a sliding scale, the faster the patent office finds a triviality, or previous art, the more it costs the customer. The pantent office has to give the reasons why the patent was rejected, along with the bill. This should a) give the patent office some money, b) reduce the patentload, which means more time per patent for patent office. This creates a balance; patent office has to reject shittty patents to get money, but they have to keep granting good patents, orherwise people will stop filing (which might be a win for society in itself), and they are out of a job.

  8. Re:Legal costs and more by Teancum · · Score: 4, Informative

    What you are looking for here is something related to barratry. I wish such a concept actually applied in U.S. federal courts, although there are several states that have become enlightened enough that it does apply to those state court systems.

    Even more important, I wish judges would actually enforce such a concept and disbar those who abuse the system. Unfortunately, in the "real world" you don't tend to find things so clear cut and lawyers being complete jerks. Usually they know at what point they are going to cross over the line and try to stay on the proper side of that line, even if they may tend to push those limits from time to time. It takes a real idiot of a lawyer who doesn't know the laws of their own profession.

  9. Re:New Law Idea? by meerling · · Score: 3, Funny

    Yes.
    ETA (Estimated Time of Arrival) has been used since long before we had computers.
    Linking a patent to doing an ETA calculation based on location/vector data from a GPS is kind of like getting a patent for shoes if the cows the leather was made out of were grass fed.

  10. Patent Troll should have known better by tonfagun · · Score: 2

    Hardly surprising. Even a patent troll should know better than going after a guy whose name translates to The Dark Man.

    Okay, I admit, I added the definite article for effect, but the rest is true. Source: I'm German

  11. Re:Do it right, canucks by flyingfsck · · Score: 2

    It is a Canadian case. You'll have to snow board them.

    --
    Excuse me, but please get off my Pennisetum Clandestinum, eh!
  12. Except Marshall, TX by Macchendra · · Score: 2

    We should draw up versions of all the popular software licenses, (MIT, BSD, GPL, etc.) that specifically exclude the patent troll town of Marshall, TX or even Harrison county, where many of the patent trolls file because of their "plaintiff friendly" juries. The town has benefited from all of the trolling, and they've set themselves up a little local industry for it. Let them do it without software. Maybe name it the Yee-Haw(R) license.