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Link Rot and the US Supreme Court

necro81 writes "Hyperlinks are not forever. Link rot occurs when a source you've linked to no longer exists — or worse, exists in a different state than when the link was originally made. Even permalinks aren't necessarily permanent if a domain goes silent or switches ownership. According to new research from Harvard Law, some 49% of hyperlinks in Supreme Court documents no longer point to the correct original content. A second study on link rot from Yale stresses that for the Court footnotes, citations, parenthetical asides, and historical context mean as much as the text of an opinion itself, which makes link rot a threat to future scholarship."

40 of 161 comments (clear)

  1. 404 Not Found by themushroom · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Which is not what you want to see in, say, an Apple verses Samsung style case where "previous art" and earlier applications are all that separate you from being successfully sued into the Stone Age.

    1. Re:404 Not Found by mi · · Score: 2, Insightful

      senile old coot, racist, anti-semite, and all-around waste of oxygen Scalia

      Why wouldn't you just compare him with Hitler (disfavorably) and be done for the day?

      --
      In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
    2. Re:404 Not Found by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I think you'd be better served assuming whenever a case comes before the Supreme Court that the Government has over-stepped its Constitutional authority. Read the Declaration of Independence and see the list of grievances against the King of England and ask yourself do you really think those same people would have wanted the Federal Government to have all the power it currently has?

    3. Re:404 Not Found by triffid_98 · · Score: 2

      I'm curious. How would comparing him to Hitler favorably work? Can you give an example?

      In my opinion Antonin Scalia is one of the most charismatic public speakers in history. To me his speeches are every bit as compelling as those of Adolph Hitler, Winston Churchill or Zig Ziglar.

    4. Re:404 Not Found by TemporalBeing · · Score: 3, Informative

      Which is not what you want to see in, say, an Apple verses Samsung style case where "previous art" and earlier applications are all that separate you from being successfully sued into the Stone Age.

      FYI - the courts require that web content have screen shots taken with time-date stamps to avoid this exact issue. The screen shots must also contain the information in a certain manner, only then can it be used as evidence/exhibits. If the lawyers are not doing that, then they are not properly writing/citing their court paperwork (briefs, etc).

      And no, it does not amount to a copyright violation.

      IANAL, but that's my understanding thanks to Groklaw and other sources.

      --
      Truth is like the sun. You can shut it out for a time, but it ain't goin' away. - Elvis Presley (source: imdb.com)
    5. Re:404 Not Found by admiralh · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Some of them, yes.

      Consider that the Constitution was the *second* attempt to unite the former colonies, since the Articles of Confederation was seen as being way out of balance, with the States having way too much power w.r.t. the Federal Government.

      And remember that the Declaration of Independence was the rhetorical culmination of the battle that started when Parliament wanted the colonists to pay the costs of the French and Indian War, and the rich New England colonists refused.

      --
      Hopelessly pedantic since 1963.
    6. Re:404 Not Found by Dishevel · · Score: 5, Insightful
      Each of them has taken an oath and each of them would rather have things go their way than to follow the constitution.

      Take the health care act. The court had to first rule that the congress meant the law to become something they specifically stated that it was not. A tax. Then make it legal that way. They stretched to make it "Constitutional". This is not something that has just happened lately either. The US Supreme court has been doing this type of thing for many, many decades. Once they did the stamp act for Machine Guns they made their statement then. "When we think something is right we will tear away at the constitution to implement it." Agree or disagree with the law itself the US Supreme Court is and has been filled with people who have taken an oath they have non intention of following.

      If it makes you feel better you can write me off as a non thinker who gets his marching orders from Limbaugh, Hannity or Fox News. The truth though is I believe in the greatness of the country as founded. The libs want guns gone. The Pubs want to "protect my right to hunt and protect myself from other people."

      The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government.

      Thomas Jefferson

      That is why you need an AR-15. They are already making information illegal. with information people can make guns and explosives and generally scary things. So they will "protect" us by vetting what information we can and can not have access to. "Just to protect the children and to save us from terrorists." Government is not your mother or your father. Government is not your uncle. Government is a needed service that can (if allowed to become to powerful) be your worst enemy.

      When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

      Again Thomas Jefferson.

      --
      Why is it so hard to only have politicians for a few years, then have them go away?
    7. Re:404 Not Found by Dishevel · · Score: 2
      They did not pass it as a tax. All revenue bill must originate in the House. This bill did not. If they wanted they could have gutted a house bill and replaced the text with the affordable care act text and re passed the law. Then. With the rulling the Supremes made it would be a legal bill.

      The court ruling that a bill created in the senate can become a constitutional law based on the taxing powers of congress is a lie. You know this. Right? I do not care if the law itself is good or bad. Unconstitutional.

      Patriot Act, FISA Courts, EPA, Deptartment of Education, Homeland Security, Constitution Free Zones, Stop and Frisk, Officers arresting people for filming, the NSA scandals, IRS scandals. All these things are examples of a government gone wild. Not a conservative government gone wild or a liberal government gone wild.

      Government Gone Wild They do not care what party is in power. We are ruled by Senators and Representatives in what almost amounts to lifetime appointments and the bureaucratic machine that eats personal freedoms for each of its 12 meals a day.

      --
      Why is it so hard to only have politicians for a few years, then have them go away?
    8. Re:404 Not Found by wbr1 · · Score: 2

      The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government. Thomas Jefferson

      The problem with this is that a gun or guns, or even a million people with guns has absolutely no chance against today's military. Blast your AR-15s at as many predator drones as you like. It will not do you a bit of good. If you do not win the military to your cause, then all the guns in the world will not help you fight physically against any tyranny the government pushes. It just will label you and your ilk as 'terrists'.

      --
      Silence is a state of mime.
    9. Re:404 Not Found by 10101001+10101001 · · Score: 2

      The libs want guns gone. The Pubs want to "protect my right to hunt and protect myself from other people."

      As a "lib"[eral/ertarian], I don't want guns gone. You want guns? Great. You want drugs? Great. Honestly, it's authoritarian libs who want guns gone just like authoritarian conservatives want to enshrine things like marriage, religion, etc in government. Oh, and most "Pubs" want guns to play with, be it play hunting or make believe that they're protecting themselves from other people. I say this because, honestly, guns are by design deadly weapons meant specifically for killing usually people--hunting wild game is a nice add-on.

      To that end, I don't think most people treat guns with the sort of respect that they should. I'd also note that, honestly, if one can truly be respectful of owning a gun, I see no reason they shouldn't be "allowed" to own a tank, a cannon, a B-52 bomber, or a nuclear weapon--allowed is a dubious word more or less because Constitutionally it seems pretty clear it'd all fall under a right and as such infringement upon that right is some sort of violation against humanity. They all stem from the same point, a means of unleashing possibly massive harm on other people. But the fact is, people who are against "hard" drugs are also against "hard" weapons. They cling to civil usages of them as justification for ownership. To me, that's either cowardice or a real unwillingness to accept exactly what is desired. Either way, as you say, the treatment by "libs" and "Pubs" is all very unconstitutional.

      --
      Eurohacker European paranoia, gun rights, and h
    10. Re:404 Not Found by Dishevel · · Score: 2

      If you look at how Big Business rules your life you will see that it is because they use government regulations to restrict your freedoms. Reduce the power of the government to restrict your freedoms and you shrink the size of the hammer that big business is using to pound you into the dirt.

      --
      Why is it so hard to only have politicians for a few years, then have them go away?
  2. Well that's easily remedied by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

    They should just start linking through the Wayback Machine.

    1. Re:Well that's easily remedied by Half-pint+HAL · · Score: 4, Insightful

      They should just start linking through the Wayback Machine.

      ...which is precisely what I did when I went back to university. I gave all citations with the original URL and an archive.org one. I hoped at the uni would pick up on it and recommend it to the other students, but it never happened....

      --
      Got them moderator blues I blieve I walk out the do', With these mod-points I been gettin', I 'most never post no mo'
    2. Re:Well that's easily remedied by Frojack123 · · Score: 5, Interesting

      They should just start linking through the Wayback Machine.

      Interesting concept, but Wayback is not always complete.

      Perhaps the court should create an exemption to copyright, that allows the creation an internal copy (perhaps in image or pdf format) of the page for anti-link-rot protection.

      I'm sure with clever wording they can manage to restrict this to lawyers and court proceedings, however:
      I could make the case that it should apply universally.

      After all, If you ever put up a page publicly on the net to content you were the rightful owner of, you have declared that version of that page to be a public document, and anyone should have the ability to make a static Image of that document. There are all sorts of copyright corner cases involved, but it is really no different than publishing your screed in the New York times or your local paper. There is no way to unpublish it, and no way to prevent it being archived.

      --
      F. Robert Jack
    3. Re:Well that's easily remedied by i+kan+reed · · Score: 2

      Sure, it's illegal for them, but who's going to sue the Supreme court?

    4. Re: Well that's easily remedied by ibwolf · · Score: 3, Informative

      Links to the WBM contain the original URL and a timestamp so it would be easy to redirect it. The issue is however unlikely to come up as Wayback links are meant to be long-term stable. They've already survived one complete rewrite of the underlying application.

    5. Re:Well that's easily remedied by lgw · · Score: 2

      Or they could just make the copy, and wait for the related copyright case to come to the Supreme Court. :)

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
  3. Appendices? by spamchang · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Should documents then start including snapshots of the site (Wayback Machine-style) in document appendices? It's more work, sure, but it seems to be an obvious solution.

    1. Re:Appendices? by Frojack123 · · Score: 2

      I often print to pdf pages that I would like to link to. Then I put a live link, and a pdf link on my pages.
      When the live link rots, I remove it and substitute the pdf link. I make very little effort to track down revised pages. (Putting in redirects is their job, not mine).

      So far, because of the topic area I do web construction for, I've only been called to task for this once, and that was from an agency that had a updated version of their rotted link, (and didn't know enough about redirects).

      Most rotted links are due to people not caring any more.

      --
      F. Robert Jack
    2. Re:Appendices? by petermgreen · · Score: 2

      The wayback machine retroactively applies robots.txt and they don't seem interested in making any exceptions to that policy. Even in cases where the current owner of the domain is not related to the owner of the domain at the time the material was archived.

      The archive isn't strictly wiped out but from the perspective of us normal people it may as well have been.

      IIRC they even managed to pursude a court that making an exception so that someone could look stuff up for a legal case would be undue hardship and persude the court that they should instead force the site in question to change their robots.txt.

      --
      note: i'm known as plugwash most places but i screwd up registering that here somehow in the past and now can't register
    3. Re:Appendices? by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 2

      "Should documents then start including snapshots of the site (Wayback Machine-style) in document appendices? It's more work, sure, but it seems to be an obvious solution."

      This is simply and purely a failure of Government to properly archive, long-term store, and maintain its records.

      Anything cited in a Court decision should be saved, cataloged, and stored in a permanent place. Failure to do so is a big failure, indeed.

    4. Re:Appendices? by kimvette · · Score: 2

      Read the FAQ on archive.org.

      If you want to delete the archive of your site, edit robots.txt to disallow them. They will wipe out the archive - or at least "tombstone" it so it is visible to no one (who knows if it's actually deleted behind the scenes)

      --
      The Christian Right is Neither (Christian nor right). See: Matthew 23, Matthew 25, Ezekiel 16:48-50
  4. Wait a minute by Dunbal · · Score: 4, Funny

    Link rot could be "a threat to future scholarship"? WHO SAID TRAINING FEWER LAWYERS WAS A BAD THING? I just don't see the problem.

    --
    Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
    1. Re:Wait a minute by Half-pint+HAL · · Score: 2

      Science also relies on scholarship. Legal scribes are not the only scholars.

      --
      Got them moderator blues I blieve I walk out the do', With these mod-points I been gettin', I 'most never post no mo'
    2. Re:Wait a minute by The+Grim+Reefer · · Score: 5, Funny

      * Lawyer: "Doctor, before you performed the autopsy, did you check for a pulse?"

      * Witness: "No."

      * Lawyer: "Did you check for blood pressure?"

      * Witness: "No."

      * Lawyer: "Did you check for breathing?"

      * Witness: "No."

      * Lawyer: "So, then it is possible that the patient was alive when you began the autopsy?"

      * Witness: "No."

      * Lawyer: "How can you be so sure, Doctor?"

      * Witness: "Because his brain was sitting on my desk in a jar."

      * Lawyer: "But could the patient have still been alive nevertheless?"

      * Witness: "Yes, it is possible that he could have been alive and practicing law somewhere."

    3. Re:Wait a minute by ColdWetDog · · Score: 2

      Why don't we take it to the logical extreme... "an infinite number of totally uninformed lawyers".

      Would we get Shakespeare out of that if we gave them a bunch of typewriters?

      --
      Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
    4. Re: Wait a minute by techprophet · · Score: 2

      No, we'd get the US tax code

  5. Good thing the NSA has it all backed up! by the_scoots · · Score: 5, Funny

    Good thing the NSA has it all backed up!

  6. Old news by onyxruby · · Score: 2

    This has been a well known problem for at least a couple of decades. Google had their famous cache that was famous for saving peoples hides or embarrassing peoples mistakes. The people that run the Wayback machine have been fighting this problem for many, many years.

    Their is a natural resistance to being able to preserve content as it was at the time. People, companies and governments like to make revisionist history and forget that certain things ever happened or change them after the fact. Specialized companies help with reputation management in ensuring that such things disappear for good.

    It's a problem from tech support documentation that disappears to finding old employers that have changed their name and moved location. The only way to resolve the issue is to be able to preserve the content as it was for posterity. Always assume your links will vanish and turn your need pages into archive files. If you really want to do something about it donate to the Internet Archive.

  7. screen capture + URL shortener by ffflala · · Score: 4, Insightful

    For fuck's sake, this is one reason why PURLs exist. The trainwreck that is a constant string of dynamic URLs *printed* out in court opinions is an example of shameful institutional incompetence, regardless of whether it's willful ignorance or just plain ignorance.

    What is required to address this is an official government domain that hosts static screencaptures of web pages, provides PURLs to point to them, and ideally uses a URL-shortening function like goo.go or bit.ly.

    Then, instead of including a long, difficult-to-retype URL in the opinion, the short, easy-to-type PURL appears in the opinion. The supplemental info for the citation includes things like original URL and date accessed, and the given PURL will point to the material in question.

    Opposed to this idea will be copyright owners who fear that court opinions will eliminate their revenues by providing free access to material they usually charge for. Because this kind of opposition is easy to use to score political points (big government! wasting taxpayer dollars!! eminent domain of the little guy's copyrighted material!!!), to make money, getting to this obvious solution will be long delayed. When it is ultimately decided upon, it will be thousands of times more expensive than need be, take three times as long to roll out, will be created using shoddy technology that will break very quickly, and be used as yet another example of government failure.

    1. Re:screen capture + URL shortener by TheRealMindChild · · Score: 4, Insightful

      and ideally uses a URL-shortening function like goo.go or bit.ly

      WHY? I never click on such links for the elementary fact that I have no idea where they lead

      --

      "When life gives you lemons, don't make lemonade. Make life take the lemons back!" -- Cave Johnson
    2. Re:screen capture + URL shortener by Albanach · · Score: 2

      Agreed. If I have no idea where a link is going, I'm sure as hell not trusting it enough to click on it.

      Did you even read the original post before replying? The poster wanted a US government site that hosts static screen captures of web pages referenced in official documents. By implication you would know exactly where the link was taking you - to a government server that hosts images or PDFs of web pages.

      Excepting the possibility that the NSA might be monitoring the documents you access, I can't really see why you would object to clicking through to such a site.

      The reason for a URL shortener would, I imagine, be to make citations more manageable. Ideally it could also strip out characters that are likely to be confused 1/I 0/O to make it easier to transcribe a url from the printed document.

  8. Plain text and grep are your friends here by MikeLip · · Score: 2

    Everything goes on one massive drive, and you grep keywords. Bring along a donut and coffee - it may be a while!

  9. improper assumptions by oneiros27 · · Score: 2

    PURLs and the like assume that there's going to be someone around to maintain the content, and maintain the linkage to the content.

    If a document is officially 'published' and given some sort of persistant ID (eg, DOI, ARK, Handle, whatever), then citing documents *should* use those over URLs.

    If however, you're just citing an example that's just some web site on the internet ... then you're SOL. They have no reason to never change their materials, keep a given version around 'til the end of time, or inform you if it's been moved elsewhere.

    eg, say that there's a complaint about some process, they cite Montgomery Ward's website as an example where it was done previously ... of course, the company doesn't exist any more. This is much different than someone locking up an article from a paywall -- they *want* you to find the item, so they can then try to get $30 or whatever out of you.

    (of course, I've just spent the last week talking about all of these issues, between meetings of DataCite, Research Data Alliance and Force 11)

    --
    Build it, and they will come^Hplain.
  10. Library of Congress 2.0 by Covalent · · Score: 4, Insightful

    This should be a mission of the Library of Congress - to archive everything ever used by the government (including court cases), be it on the Internet or not.

    While they're at it, they can probably archive nearly everything else.

    --
    Great warrior...hrmph! Wars not make one great.
    1. Re:Library of Congress 2.0 by NatasRevol · · Score: 5, Funny

      I think that duty was passed to another part of the government.

      --
      There are two types of people in the world: Those who crave closure
  11. Memento project, yo. by infinite.intimation · · Score: 2

    I would like to see participation in the memento project/stable URIs (http://mementoweb.org) become considered as a fundamental element of being considered "a journalist", part of the media, etc., in order to get the protections of that status. The lack of a consistent history in the web based media is harmful, and more than one massive corporation has used the "fluidity" of the web and hyperlinks to be more than fluid with the truth.
    http://www.metafilter.com/98913/Ancestors-we-will-never-know-presage-feelings-we-can-never-have-now-go-forth-and-time-travel-on-the-web
    Oh, and yeah, for e-laws and the presentation of findings of governmental groups and organizations, and those receiving governmentally recognized status as candidates of recognized parties with web presences... mandate that asap, and I will hug the government!
    Transparency is only as good as your hyperlink protection and preservation plan.

  12. No problem by EuclideanSilence · · Score: 2

    The only link that matters still works.

    http://www.archives.gov/exhibits/charters/constitution.html

    Too bad they can't reference this one more.

  13. I keep saying this, mod me down again, plz. by VortexCortex · · Score: 3, Interesting

    This is because the current IP protocols are Dumb when it comes to data. I mean that with a capital D. Not that the designers are dumb, but the protocol itself is just dumb, in that it knows nothing about the data.

    We suffer from the fact that IPv4 and IPv6 do not have store and forward. Instead of / in addition to endpoint IDs, all the routers need to have a large cache for versioned content. You can still have your frackin' unversioned uncacheable content, however we need a more permanent store and forward service. This will reduce bandwidth consumption, and is essential for bringing the Internet to space it's part of the Interstellar DTN (delay tolerant network).

    Imagine the entire Internet as a hybrid between a decentralized distributed file store, and the current IP stack. Instead of requesting an endpoint we could request the data hash. A distributed hash table could serve the content from within the Internet. ISPs can vastly decrease bandwidth by increasing their cache duplication size (as we have currently), but when a cache miss happens it could be served by another cache in the distributed hash table on up the chain to the origin. "What about updates to documents? My cached pages!" Fools, the doc will have a different hash. We could actually SOLVE issues whereby resource names must be changed by simply requesting them based on their internal content hashes. Additionally, we can fix the issue of mixed secure / insecure content while we're at it. A resource referenced inside a secure document can include THE HASH ID of the resource. Thus, you know the insecure and cacheable content you're pulling in is unmodified...

    Nope, we can't have nice things because you fuckers regard the old farts who designed the current antiquated systems as if they were gods, even though store and forward works beautifully for packet radio. (Hint: The FCC disallows any use of store and forward by unlicensed civilians.) Otherwise we could have a decentralized unsnoopable high-speed (largely) wireless Internet that grows organically with demand with little or no fees (everyone's a node hosting data, buy a box once and you're done).

    The main barriers to solving the problem are ISP greed, draconian copyright laws, and desire for a surveillance state.

    Note, this WILL all happen eventually anyway, you idiots are just too foolish to realize it, so it'll turn out to be a cluster fuck like "The Web" is now because the end result will be evolved by bolting on shite to the current systems over the years instead of being designed with the desired end result problem space in mind. Eg: Colocation fees? WTF? This is a hack to move data closer to endpoints... like store and forward achieves by design.
    kthx.