No Upper Bound On Phone Record Collection, Says NSA

PCWorld reports that "[A] U.S. surveillance court has given the National Security Agency no limit on the number of U.S. telephone records it collects in the name of fighting terrorism, the NSA director said Thursday. The NSA intends to collect all U.S. telephone records and put them in a searchable 'lock box' in the interest of national security, General Keith Alexander, the NSA's director, told U.S. senators." But don't worry; it's just metadata, until it isn't. (Your row in the NSA database may already be getting cozy in its nice new home in Utah.)

Comments

Foil hats?

[Anonymous Coward]

Shinny side out or in?

Re:Foil hats?

[Anonymous Coward]

Sorry dude, foil now attracts drones. Shoulda fucking listened when you were told earlier.

Re:Foil hats?

[cold fjord]

The shiny side should face what you're trying to protect.

If you don't want them reading your brain waves, the shiny side goes on the inside to prevent the brain waves from leaking out.

If you don't want them using mind control beams on you, the shiny side goes on the outside to keep the mind control beams out.

If you're worried about both, then you need to go double layer with a shiny side facing both in and out.

If you think the molemen might be involved, then you should put a layer in the bottoms of your shoes, and maybe in your underwear.

Re:Foil hats?

[Anonymous Coward]

The foil hat blocked the extreme low frequency transmission you insensitive clod!

Re:Foil hats?

[RussR42]

If you're worried about both, then you need to go double layer with a shiny side facing both in and out.

But should you put the shiny sides against each other or have one shiny side against your head and the other facing out?

Re:Foil hats?

[Anonymous Coward]

You can't have the shiny sides facing each other, jeez. The mind control waves will become trapped between the two shiny faces and cause massive heat build up. This is basic tin foil hat theory guys, come on.

Re:Foil hats?

[Anonymous Coward]

The NSA hates me for this one weird trick! Separate the two layers with plastic wrap and increase your capacitance by 2 nF!

Re:Foil hats?

[VortexCortex]

It doesn't matter which side in or out if you've got Master Origami Skills.

Instead of a hat, Simply fold foil into a meta material for the desired frequency;
You'll know you've got it right when your teeth stop singing.

Re:Foil hats?

[Anonymous Coward]

You forgot to mention that "tinfoil" hats are, in fact, a government plot against us. You need to be using aluminum, people!

Re:Foil hats?

[brxndxn]

How the fuck is this funny? We have a direct quote from the director of the NSA and you make a joke alluding to conspiracy theorists like they're the crazy ones. The thing that is crazy here is that the dumb useless clueless fucktarded people like you would rather make light of something and continue to act like something is nothing than actually effect some positive change..

The US Constitution is the supreme law of the land.. You would probably make fun of that too.

Re:Foil hats?

[davester666]

Next thing you know, he'll want a refresher course on how you are supposed to fold the edges.

Re:Foil hats?

[davester666]

No, it's not.

SCOTUS gets to interpret it however they want, and there is nothing you can do about it.
And then for stuff like what the NSA is doing, you can't sue the gov't because you can't prove they have your specific information, because even if they hand you documentation that they DO have your specific information, they just call "do-over, that's a national secret, you can't touch us bitch".
Your "representatives" could do something about it, but only a tiny fraction of the population actually cares about this issue, many of whom will roll over at the mention of "terrorism" and "child molesters", so your "representatives" go back to playing Angry Birds while in session.

Re:Foil hats?

[Anonymous Coward]

The problem with beliefs. Often when proven wrong people will still stick to what they believe. They will rationalise it away or outright ignore it because to face the problem would change their secure position in the little world they believe they understand. Personal growth by facing the truth is hard and they dont know if they can handle it. They need their rock, their belief, their control. Because otherwise the world is a scary place.

So put on the nervous smile, crack a joke and hope the stories go away by themselves. That way brxndxn you will not shatter their world view

Re:Foil hats?

[Isaac-1]

The problem is only a tiny fraction of the population understands the issue, and as long as we use terms like metadata and billing records they will not understand. When we talk about this we need to make it clear we are talking about the records that include who, when, and where EVERYONE is when they make or receive a phone call, and WHO they are talking too. As well as the implication for this in a connected society, such as in effect giving the government HISTORICAL tracking of your location any time your carrying a cell phone, ....

Re:Foil hats?

[Anonymous Coward]

The US Constitution is the supreme law of the land.. You would probably make fun of that too.

I would but you americans are busy doing it yourselves.

Re:Foil hats?

[sl4shd0rk]

How the fuck is this funny?

I'll second that. This is pretty serious shit and aside from the fact that the NSA and the US gov broke every damn law on the book there are other concerning issues to address here:

- how do we deal with government entities, now and in the future, who operate under secret laws not open to public knowledge?

- are we to disregard the constitution and it's amendments now if the we allow the NSA and related bodies to walk on this one?

- what are the laws we want regarding privatized corporations who conduct "business" with government security agencies?

- do we want to create new laws to protect whistleblowers when organizations (private, public, military, etc) have clearly broken the law?

- how to we determine (alexander) when the line has been crossed with people who are required to lie under oath about the facts?

Or you can just joke about it and hope the next time you have a difference of opinion with the government that your stint in prison is a short one.

Re:Foil hats?

[Anonymous Coward]

How the fuck is this funny? We have a direct quote from the director of the NSA and you make a joke alluding to conspiracy theorists like they're the crazy ones. The thing that is crazy here is that the dumb useless clueless fucktarded people like you would rather make light of something and continue to act like something is nothing than actually effect some positive change..

The US Constitution is the supreme law of the land.. You would probably make fun of that too.

I would, but then again, I don't live in the US. It does have some funny parts. What is even more funny is the way how half of your population treats it. It looks like you think it's something that came from THE AUTHORITY. Something that cannot be broken, and for sure cannot be changed. Laws just don't work like that, not even constitutions.

Re:Foil hats?

[Anonymous Coward]

"The US Constitution is the supreme law of the land.. You would probably make fun of that too."

True. I suppose you could print it out on tin foil and then use that to make into a hat. A "Freedom Hat".

Re:Foil hats?

[AbominousSalad]

The bigger challenge, how do you convince people who say "meh, I'm not doing anything I need to hide" ? Because, by and large, it seems U.S. citizens are on the same page as Zuckerberg when it comes to the era of personal privacy - which is to say, it's a quaint old concept, but dangerous, and over.

Re:Foil hats?

[AbominousSalad]

> how do we deal with government entities, now and in the future, who operate under secret laws not open to public knowledge?
Tempted to start talking about the 2nd amendment and watering the tree of liberty on this one. Perhaps ultimately it needs to become illegal to treat the voters as a lesser class of government agent. We just have different functions, and we need to be in on the facts or we're useless. Probably a case could be made on that track if a group was to run with it all the way down Washington's throat.

> are we to disregard the constitution and it's amendments now if the we allow the NSA and related bodies to walk on this one?
Is there any truth to what people say, about the Constitution being perpetually suspended so long as we are in a perpetual state of national emergency?

> what are the laws we want regarding privatized corporations who conduct "business" with government security agencies?
Beyond my pay grade and I haven't had coffee.

> do we want to create new laws to protect whistleblowers when organizations (private, public, military, etc) have clearly broken the law?
Definitely yes. Interesting how leakers are turning into this wild case of history playing out immediately and the populace choosing sides in a weird civil cyberwar.

> how to we determine (alexander) when the line has been crossed with people who are required to lie under oath about the facts?
He was required to shoot himself in the brain, but he took off the whole skull. He was required to bomb the church, but he also took out the orphanage. He was required to waste untold amounts of money by lying to the public and the rest of government making it so all our out-in-the-open decision-making efforts (and costs that go with them) are pointless, worthless, and potentially both evil and unproductive... but he also endorsed Crystal Pepsi? Problem's in the acceptable subterfuge, IMO. Why even have an above-board government or voters if they're going to base all their decisions on lies?

Intends to?

[mosb1000]

The NSA intends to collect all U.S. telephone records and put them in a searchable 'lock box' in the interest of national security

No, they don't intend to do this at all, they already do collect all of it.

Re:Intends to?

[geekmux]

They already collect it, but it is not in the lock box yet. Currently they are in Israel and god knows where else. But don't worry, they are planning that there will be a lock box.

Ah, I see. Well, then, please allow me to translate what the NSA is really trying to say here.

Uh, we kinda had our previous "lock" box hacked, and all of the records were stolen. But don't worry about Congress getting pissed when we declassify that, it's just metadata. We're cool. We're simply going to make an announcement that we need another 30 billion dollars this year and every year to build a new "lock" box...that will be hacked from the inside next time, not the outside.

Far fetched? We're here talking about NSAs new perpetual data collector, probably titled something arrogant like Project Sheeple...going where no tax dollars have gone before, all in the name of Terrorism. We promise.

Re:Intends to?

[Dunbal]

Yeah it's just metadata. Like if I rob a bank electronically and put the money in my bank account. It's just metadata, numbers, an electronic "bank balance". It's only real when I go to the ATM... right.

Re:Intends to?

[mosb1000]

Ah, very sneaky. . . It's not really lying as long as you can play a convoluted word-game to make what you're literally saying true.

Re:Intends to?

[gweihir]

They describe it wrong however: It is to secure the nation against its citizens, least they develop some ideas of their own.

Re:Intends to?

[Anonymous Coward]

... numbers, an electronic ...

Meta-data can be numbers. But numbers aren't always meta-data.

... It's only real when I ...

One can make the same argument for pirated movies and kiddie porn.

Metadata Equals Surveillance

[Anonymous Coward]

But don't worry; it's just metadata

Metadata Equals Surveillance

Re:Metadata Equals Surveillance

[whoever57]

Perhaps some enterprising jounalist, or the EFF could make some FOIA requests for phone records from the NSA, Whitehouse, etc.. Let the government say that the data is private!

Re:Metadata Equals Surveillance

[Anonymous Coward]

How difficult is it to automate transcripts of audio conversations, compress the textfiles and forward them to any predictor and population shaper / culling algorithm?

Re:Metadata Equals Surveillance

[BlueStrat]

Perhaps some enterprising jounalist, or the EFF could make some FOIA requests for phone records from the NSA, Whitehouse, etc.. Let the government say that the data is private!

They said their data is private.

Not anyone else's.

They'll put you or I in prison or kill us for obtaining their data.

Strat

Re: Metadata Equals Surveillance

[s.petry]

It is not too complex, however translations without the originals would not be evidence. Of course today having evidence in a government prosecution is optional at best. Easy to bluff to a plea with the translation.

Re:Metadata Equals Surveillance

[ogdenk]

They'll put you or I in prison or kill us for obtaining their data.

Yet if a few threaten to do the same to them, they use it as an excuse to completely wipe their ass with the US Constitution and get EVEN MORE funding for their illegal, unconstitutional, disgusting, fascist tactics. Did I mention immoral and creepy?

If this is what i

Re:Metadata Equals Surveillance

[Anonymous Coward]

it's too bad that the US Supreme Court disagreed with him in 1979 and set the precedent for the NSA's actions.

Re:Metadata Equals Surveillance

[ZigiSamblak]

Of course, the NSA is investing billions of dollars in collecting and storing this pointless "metadata". Somehow collecting this stuff will improve your safety even though it is of no use. How gullable do they think we are?

Re:Metadata Equals Surveillance

[Anonymous Coward]

That's an outstanding idea. If there is no expectation of privacy for Metadata, an FOIA should net the call records for all the agencies in DC including especially, the Whitehouse, Congress, and NSA, That would show quite a few interesting connections. When the FOIA is rejected, at least there can be no futher discussion about no expectation of privacy because it's only 'Metadata'.

Also, if the there is no expectaion of privacy, why the lockbox?

If they are going to gather the information, they need to public buy-in for the gory details of this 'lockbox'
From the powerpoint slides, it appeared to be two sided.
The domestic side had some controls, but the international side, perhaps not so much.
That would seem to leave a pretty big hole in the box if one simply goes in through the international side.
With the continual lowering of the bar for terrorism, this seems likely.
           

Re:Metadata Equals Surveillance

[Jawnn]

Of course, the NSA is investing billions of dollars in collecting and storing this pointless "metadata". Somehow collecting this stuff will improve your safety even though it is of no use. How gullable do they think we are?

We (as in "those of us who understand what's going on here") don't count. What counts is the majority of our fellow citizens who are scared, stupid, or just plain apathetic enough to not do anything about the ass-ramming that our Constitutional rights are taking.

Tinfoil hats for all

[Anonymous Coward]

Turns out the tinfoil hat wearing conspiracy theorists were pretty much spot on.

Re:Tinfoil hats for all

[coastwalker]

Not only that but all that cold war stuff was a complete waste of time - we are the Soviet Union.

Re:Tinfoil hats for all

[Anonymous Coward]

Tinfoil doesn't block sound waves. It's all funny until you start hearing voices in your head and are unable to disprove your crazy thoughts about government mind control and you take a shotgun to your local Navy yard. It would be hilarious if the govt is doing the same thing companies already are with sound waves.

http://electronics.howstuffworks.com/gadgets/high-tech-gadgets/brain-advertisement1.htm

Maybe the tinfoil hat crowd is a bit paranoid, but I think their paranoia is justified. Kinda like the whole NSA thing this article is about.

Re:Tinfoil hats for all

[Anonymous Coward]

It doesn't take a tinfoil hatter to realize the obvious. Give the government the power to spy on people, and with no real accountability, and then it does it? What a surprise!

Re:Tinfoil hats for all

[gewalker]

Well maybe, but at least we have better consumer goods that we by from communist China.

Re:Tinfoil hats for all

[Anonymous Coward]

No need to get so worked up, you'll be old enough to vote someday.

Re:Tinfoil hats for all

[cold fjord]

Not only that but all that cold war stuff was a complete waste of time - we are the Soviet Union.

If the US really is the USSR, then that is very unfortunate for you, comrade. Under the terms of Article 58-12 of the Soviet penal code I now have no choice but to denounce you, comrade, for violations of Article 58-10, and possibly Article 58-4 of the Soviet penal code by engaging in libelous propaganda against the glorious achievements of the American revolution by comparing it to what is now a failed state. The normal punishment would be deprivation of liberty for not less than 6 months, but since the United States is currently engaged in combat against the Taliban and al Qaida, it is possible you may be subject to punishment under Article 58-2 for which the punishment is:

the supreme measure of social defense-- shooting, or proclamation as an enemy of the workers, with confiscation or property and with deprivation of citizenship of the union republic, and likewise of citizenship of the Soviet Union and perpetual expulsion beyond the borders of the USSR, with the allowance under extenuating circumstances of reduction to deprivation of liberty for a term of no less than three years, with confiscation of all or part of one's property [6 Jun 1927 (SU No 49, art 330)].

.

Re:Tinfoil hats for all

[Anonymous Coward]

We will continue the surveillance until we are free.

Re:Tinfoil hats for all

[Anonymous Coward]

It was probably miscommunication. He was proably hoping he doesn't have to change anything, and it does look like he will be able to keep that interpretation of his promise.

Re:Tinfoil hats for all

[Anonymous Coward]

Turns out the tinfoil hat wearing conspiracy theorists were pretty much spot on.

No they are not. Nobody is going around arresting libertarian bloggers or slashdot posters.

Re:Tinfoil hats for all

[Garridan]

Wrong both counts.

Re:Tinfoil hats for all

[brxndxn]

Maybe the joke is on us.. We are constantly told how free we are.. But what happens to anyone in our society that actually tried to effect change? What happens to the honest journalists or the honest politicians? How's our incarceration rate?

Re:Tinfoil hats for all

[Anonymous Coward]

Like McDonald's, American Idol and Honey Boo Boo? Oh yes, the rest of the world envy you!!!

Re:Tinfoil hats for all

[Anonymous Coward]

You could always leave the country, although you'd still be liable for US taxes - another 'freedom' that the US provides its citizens that no other country does.

Row data?

[Deflagro]

I'm more worried about what's in the columns.... Metadata my ass.

Re:Row data?

[B1ackDragon]

I really suspect some of those columns contain something like a bag of words model, which I'm sure they would classify as "just metadata." Extra super creepy surveillance metadata.

Boiling a frog

[Anonymous Coward]

Remember when they at least *pretended* not to engage in domestic surveillance?

Yeah, like the other "Lock Boxes"

[Anonymous Coward]

Hopefully the lock on the box is a little better than the one that we had been told the Social Security money was going into.

Government doesn't have the best track record for keeping track of the keys to it's lock boxes, nor guarunteeing the locks themselves are even in place. Among other general failings ...

Re:Yeah, like the other "Lock Boxes"

[Anonymous Coward]

Who ever said that SS money was going into a "lock box" never understood what the government was doing with it in the first place. The US Treasury is essentially buying bonds from itself. It will then have to sell these bonds when SS outlays are more than what is coming in. That will cause an even bigger glut of US Treasury bonds on the market. In order to get people buy them, the Feds will have to offer higher interest rates, which will make the debt problem even worse.

This is gonna be awesome!

[http]

I've never seen a civil war up close before.

Re:This is gonna be awesome!

[Anonymous Coward]

Did you think you were going to see one with Occupy Wall street?You're not going to see one now either.

These guys are very successfully boiling this frog.

It appears a that nothing short of an abrupt shutdown of Facebook or Twitter for subversive speech will mobilize the masses. Even then, who knows?

Re:This is gonna be awesome!

[intermodal]

It's not a pretty idea. But even more frightening is what history tells us about the end-result of governments that believe in their own unlimited powers.

Re:This is gonna be awesome!

[0racle]

Never going to happen in the US.

Re:This is gonna be awesome!

[Anonymous Coward]

very true. But there is something other countries can do: anytime any NSA/CIA/FBI employee/agent of any level comes to their shores, they should summarily arrest under a ton of espionage charges and sentence to 1000 years in prision -- all in a single day. It really takes a courageous low level employee to do detain, arrest and charge.

Re:This is gonna be awesome!

[hort_wort]

Never going to happen in the US.

The fluoride does a pretty good job, yes?

Re:This is gonna be awesome!

[Anonymous Coward]

Because you actually believe other countries do not spy on their own citizens and citizens of other countries? How cute and naive...

Re:This is gonna be awesome!

[istartedi]

I've never seen a civil war up close before

. Never going to happen in the US.

Yeah. There's no precedent for that.

Re:This is gonna be awesome!

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, but can you maybe wait a bit before you start it? MLB playoffs are about to kickoff. NFL just got rolling. My favorite shows are back with new episodes.

Re:This is gonna be awesome!

[darrellg1]

Where did anyone say they believe other countries don't spy? Got a quote? No? FUCK OFF HIPPIE. Your ilk are the reason we're in this mess.

Re:This is gonna be awesome!

[Anonymous Coward]

It takes two sides to make a civil war, and both sides have to see the profit.

The American Civil War was about money. Northerners wanted to expand their capitalist system into the South, which would mean larger markets for them. Southerners wanted to keep their hereditary/landed gentry status (and wealth) intact.

What are the two sides here? Obviously, "big data" is making shedloads of money. But who makes a comparable profit out of privacy?

Unless you can answer that question, you don't have the prerequisites for a civil war.

Re:This is gonna be awesome!

[Anonymous Coward]

We all know there's only one way out of the situation : take the power back using reasonable force . They will not let go of the bone , like rabid dogs they foam at the mouth seeing more of our lives invaded and controlled. . Said it before , will keep saying it .. the only way out is a popular uprising . You guys got more weapons than the Navy Army Air Force combined inventories , put it to good use. It's too late for anything else if you value your freedom.

Re:This is gonna be awesome!

[Anonymous Coward]

"Where is the financial gain for me for fighting?" said no one fighting for their freedom......

Remember, not everyone who fights, does so for money. Things get bad enough, they fight for freedom or pure survival. There are plenty who would die to protect the futures of their children when they see that at stake.

Re: This is gonna be awesome!

[s.petry]

The people pulling the strings in the US pull the strings in most other countries as well. If you can't see their connections you are really not looking. The NSA leaks that started these recent discussions make that fact abundantly clear.

Re:This is gonna be awesome!

[istartedi]

OK, I'll bite. On one side:

3-letter agencies, military-industrial complex, prison-industrial complex (ties in with war on drugs), corporate cronies, Monsanto and friends, corrupt politicians. They're all making money from their current gigs. Privacy violation is just one dimension of their insanity.

On the other side: regular Americans losing a lot of money in a number of ways. Supporting massive government systems that harm the people is costly. A hyperinflation scenario would cause people to lose a lot of money. A long simmering Japanese style malaise or 1937-style recession would cause regular people to lose money too--via deflation, return of the housing bust, etc. Either way it looks like the 99% are losing a lot of money already. It's just that it's bearable so far.

Economic tension is there. There's also a lot of social tension: Coasts vs. Flyover, and yep; the Old South, which still votes as a block. Then you've got the Reconquista show across the Southern tier. The South is doubly-plus ungood with good ol' boys and Hispanics both threatening to pull the social fabric in one way or another. The pot growing regions of California are another interesting sideshow. Creeping legalization threatens their economy.

There you have some classic states rights issues, that have nothing to do with slavery this time. Will Colorado shoot DEA agents? Will Arizona go rogue and shoot to kill Mexicans at the border? Probably not. We'd need a catalyst. An economic catastrophe that throws a lot of armed men off their payrolls could be that catalyst. Some of these guys aren't cut out for anything more than fighting, and masses of unemployed people might be willing to join them. Guns are plentiful. Some state legislatures have already snubbed the Fed by endorsing a gold and/or silver standard.

If anything, the fragmentary nature of economic and social tension in the US is more un-nerving since it threatens to fracture into several fiefdoms this time, rather than one clear line. A modern US civil war might be just like the ugly messes we see in the Middle East. No real lines of skirmish. Just a bunch of toxic raisins in a shit pudding.

Re:This is gonna be awesome!

[dbIII]

On that note the Tzar had a truly awesome intelligence service that could give plenty of detail of the oncoming tsunami that wiped out that regime from all directions. It wasn't just Lenin's bunch that they had to worry about.

Re:This is gonna be awesome!

[jareth-0205]

For all intensive purposes, "whom" is no longer a word. That begs the question, "who cares"?

What's an intensive purpose?

Re:This is gonna be awesome!

[AlphaWoIf_HK]

If the only way out is a popular uprising, we're doomed. Most people simply don't want to do that; they can't even work up the courage to stop voting for the two major parties, and that takes virtually no effort at all.

Re:This is gonna be awesome!

[jittles]

I've never seen a civil war up close before.

I've seen a military Coup d'état in person before. A relatively peaceful one, even when it switched back to the original leader after a week. It's not pretty - and its recommended we avoid it. However, I will say that I prefer that people lose their lives fighting for freedom and their rights than that we become a police state. Even if that means my own or those of loved ones.

Re:This is gonna be awesome!

[Max_W]

The French king Louis XVI wrote in his diary on the day when the Great French Revolution began: "Rien." It means: nothing. It seems to be one more quiet uneventful day of the year 1789.

Re:This is gonna be awesome!

[Jawnn]

Never going to happen again in the US.

TFTFY, my history-challenged friend.

Re:This is gonna be awesome!

[Anonymous Coward]

And now you know why the Feds bought so much ammo last year.

Searchable lock box?

[Anonymous Coward]

Is "searchable lock box" more than a little bit misleading? It is in fact a database. Its closest equivalent in meatspace is a filing cabinet. Calling it a lock box is so much of a misnomer, that whoever calls it that, lacks the education to describe it, and should defer talking about it to someone who does. Let the media filter it down to the average Joe's level instead. I wish I could believe that the people in charge of approving these things know what they're approving. Obviously they don't.

Re:Searchable lock box?

[gweihir]

A bit? It is a direct lie by omission and false image. Of course it is a database, and of course there is nothing sealed or locked about it. It will be used to data-mine, create guilt-by-association, etc. Every totalitarian government needs one of those, how else would it identify enemies of the state? And of course, if you are against this surveillance, you automatically are a freedom-Terrorist and should go a way for life without the due process scum like you do not deserve!

Uhh, yeah right. We'll believe the NSA blindly

[Anonymous Coward]

Given we "the public" know they have networking gear installed to snoop all telecomm traffic, the NSA is already logging all of the call data and metadata. The question is, how often is low value data deleted? You can bet high value data is stored indefinitely.

Think about it. The director of the NSA says "run a query on X number" and show me everything we know. The staff runs the metadata query and shows the list. You know the next command from the director will be, "play those calls."

Anyone dumb enough to believe the NSA isn't recording the entire call is either A) a moron, B) living under a boulder 5 miles in a cave or C) most trusting person in this galaxy.

get over it

[Anonymous Coward]

If storing all communications is physically possible, then it's going to be done. And if not by NSA, then somebody else. Get used to it. Does anyone seriously doubt that many other European countries aren't doing the exact same thing? I feel I need to qualify European, because that's the point. This is shocking for a "developed" country to do, but my point, is it really that shocking?

So... what next? I'm not saying it's right, or should ever be institutionalized policy to spy on all communications, but it's what will happen 9/10 times, whether it's policy or not, in any but the purest government. (for the sake of argument, pretend for a moment that the term "purest government" isn't an oxymornon.)

Re:get over it

[AlphaWoIf_HK]

Get used to it.

No, and that sounds like a terrible idea.

Re:get over it

[AHuxley]

"other European countries" may not have The Fourth Amendment, just some hopeful privacy and really detailed telecom laws.
Other countries can do what they want - until law reform catches up or trails fail or the press finds out...
Going against your own laws will make good trusted staff become whistleblowers long term.

Re:get over it

[VortexCortex]

Get used to it.

No, and that sounds like a terrible idea.

Well, that's debatable. It's fucking expensive, however. I'm not aware of any citizens who want it funded. Country doesn't want to pay for something, it should be gotten rid of... Even the Feds know they don't want to play the Taxation without Representation game. Better job hiding it next time, fascists.

Re:get over it

[Anonymous Coward]

Sorry. The US Supreme Court in 1979 ruled that government collection of telephone call metadata was not considered private information protected by the Fourth Amendment.

Re:get over it

[AHuxley]

So we are back to the "third party doctrine" legal cover. You dial out to the phone company and your rights are gone as you entered the "phone number".
http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2012/01/supreme-court-holds-warrantless-gps-tracking-unconstitutional/ has some emerging insights on long term US legal thought surround ongoing metadata use.
The public, press and political leaders and gov spy staff now have a clear understanding of what "metadata" is in 2013.
http://www.wyden.senate.gov/news/press-releases/wyden-continues-to-press-intelligence-officials-on-needed-domestic-surveillance-reforms
They also understand that its domestic vs the old line about only from a foreign country to the USA.
Recall the great quotes form 2006 and reflect where the privacy debate is thanks to Snowden and many others :)
http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/washington/2006-05-10-nsa_x.htm

Re:get over it

[AlphaWoIf_HK]

Well, I think the Supreme Court was wrong. Under that logic, the government can do and spy on anyone it wants as long as it gets corporate thugs to agree to give them the data, and is that really where we want to be?

Re:get over it

[gweihir]

For example in Germany, it is forbidden by the constitution that secret agencies give data to law enforcement. May be the only country where that is the case, but after the experiences with the GeStaPo this was thought to be a good idea.

Re:get over it

[Anonymous Coward]

Same in Norway. And a bunch of other European countries. In fact, as far as I know it's really unusual for this NOT to be the case in a civilized country.

PC World link?

[Anonymous Coward]

Boy I love it when something is quoted from an online article without a link!
http://www.pcworld.com/article/2049860/nsa-surveillance-court-says-no-upper-limit-on-phone-records-collection.html

Was that so hard?

Re:PC World link?

[Anonymous Coward]

Boy I love it when a link is posted as text without an anchor tag!
Linky
<a href="http://www.pcworld.com/article/2049860/nsa-surveillance-court-says-no-upper-limit-on-phone-records-collection.html"/>Linky</a>

Was that so hard?

Re:PC World link?

[Anonymous Coward]

Triple-click, ctrl+t, middle click, enter... was that hard?

[I'm waiting for the "I'm a Windows / GNOME-without-middle-click-paste / whatever user, you insensitive clod."]

Re: PC World link?

[s.petry]

VT-220and lynx you insensitive clod!!

Re:PC World link?

[VortexCortex]

Triple-click, ctrl+t, middle click, enter... was that hard?

No, but it's getting there, baby... What Window Manager are you wearing?

Stalin-type Purges

[silentbozo]

How long before the next incoming majority party decides to use the NSA data to clean house? Just to make sure that their government is free of ties to terrorism, foreign governments, and corruption, of course... and to ensure that everyone is loyal and pure of ideology.

Re:Stalin-type Purges

[Anonymous Coward]

The current one is already doing that. The incoming one wants to continue doing it, which is why you don't see Ted Cruz standing up and reciting Dr. Seuss to defund the NSA.

Re:Stalin-type Purges

[memnock]

"... Just to make sure that their government is free of ties to terrorism... "

Do you mean terrorism like the kind that involves killing unknowing bystanders? The U.S. doesn't do that. Oh wait...

Re:Stalin-type Purges

[AHuxley]

Depends really on the CIA and other mil/gov agencies and the emerging political power of the NSA.
Recall the status, career move, standing, funding and technical role the NSA was seen to be in the 1990's?
Note the new standing, role, political access and color of law domestic ability over the past ~10 years?
A lot of other contractors, mil, gov have had to share/lost their political power due to the unexpected climb of the NSA.
What does a purge in the USA feel like? A massive flow of raw data to the protected press from the centre of one agency.

Re:Stalin-type Purges

[gweihir]

You have it wrong. As the NSA has dirt on everybody, they will be the ones controlling that government. The NSA may not yet have fully realized what they can do, but I am sure it is only a question of time.

Re:Stalin-type Purges

[BenfromMO]

How do you know that our current administration is not doing just this? If they used the material they collected illegally, we could already be seeing this at the higher ends of the spectrum with politicians buying votes on bills based on blackmail or even buying compliance on certain issues through the same.

And the rest of us peons wouldn't have a clue.

Re:Stalin-type Purges

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't kid yourself. The "next" majority party is NOW using a massive database to manipulate the results of elections. Back in February, California Congresswoman Maxine Waters spilled the beans on the Democrat Party's use of a secret database to get Obama re-elected. Here is video of Waters saying the secret database will be used to assure future elections go their way:
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=49a_1360284775
We know Senator Diane Feinstein (head of the Intelligence Committee) has made some amazing business moves that could gave only come through insider knowledge. The only question is, where are they getting all this data?

Eh

[Qzukk]

Don't worry they can only fit a few hundred terabytes in the little box they drew on the blueprint marked "Datacenter" that they let everyone see to prove they weren't storing a whole lot of data there. Don't mind the dozens of all black blueprint pages marked sub-basement [redacted] through sub-basement [redacted] I'm sure none of their data center capacity would ever be classified. They've been nothing but fully transparent these last few years, after all!

New word for Webster's

[Nov8tr]

I think these guys deserve a new word in Webster's Dictionary. Scumbag just isn't enough any more. It's just not inclusive enough or even descriptive enough. Any ideas!

Re:New word for Webster's

[dyingtolive]

I don't think they need a new word. Just use a perfectly good old word. How about "tyrant"?

Re:New word for Webster's

[Zero__Kelvin]

I prefer "treasoner"; it is more accurate.

Re:New word for Webster's

[Arker]

That's not a valid word, you are trying for 'traitor.'

At least in the US, that charge would not apply here.

I could see a few billion counts of civil rights violation however.

Re:New word for Webster's

[Zero__Kelvin]

"That's not a valid word"

No. I said what I meant. Treason is the act of betraying ones country. If you can't figure out that betraying every U.S. citizen is the same as betraying the country I can't really help you understand the word. .. and if you mean it quite literally isn't a valid word, you might want to look more closely at the quotes I put around it.

Re:New word for Webster's

[Arker]

It's not a valid word. You are attempting to form the agent noun from treason, and the most common and regular way to do that is with the ending "-er" as in beat+er=beater or roast+er=roaster. But it is incorrect in this case, the noun is irregular, and the correct agent form is traitor "one who commits treason."

Also, the founding fathers saw fit to define treason very very narrowly and to do so in the Constitution itself, which is why the charge would not fit in the US, though it might be possible were this in a different jurisdiction.

Re:New word for Webster's

[Anonymous Coward]

"National Security Agency" is the perfectly good old word. It even translates nicely to Staatssicherheit (or "STASI") if you leave off the "Agency".

So the ole' US is truly the spiritual son of East Germany.

Re:New word for Webster's

[Anonymous Coward]

"I think these guys deserve a new word in Webster's Dictionary." Of course it isn't a valid word.

Also, the founding fathers saw fit to define treason very very narrowly and to do so in the Constitution itself

What if people aren't talking about the constitutional definition of treason? There are other definitions that fit the situation, you know. The government is made up of traitors; they betrayed the highest law of the land, and by extension, the people.

Re:New word for Webster's

[Zero__Kelvin]

I specifically told you that I put quotes around the word. Are you unaware what the quotes around "treasoner" mean? It is a specific acknowledgement that it is not a word that has been accepted into the common lexicon. Stop being so dense in your effort to sound intelligent.

" which is why the charge would not fit in the US"

And here is a great example of why you should stop trying to sound intelligent. I never said they should be charged with treason anywhere in this thread.

Re:New word for Webster's

[Arker]

There is a difference between coining a new word where one is lacking, and simply duplicating an existing word incorrectly. Quotes around "traitor" here would have made a perfectly intelligible post, and would have given warning that the meaning intended was not literal or legal but more figurative at the same time.

Re:New word for Webster's

[Zero__Kelvin]

You are an "idiot"

An example of the metadata...

[QilessQi]

The frequency and amplitude of the phone conversation, sampled at 1-millisecond intervals.

Just metadata.

Re:An example of the metadata...

[Anonymous Coward]

So much data at 1ms sampling... if only there was some way to compress it

Fuck The NSA

[zenlessyank]

That is all.

NSA Directory Keith Alexander in a nutshell

[dkleinsc]

He wants all information about everybody he can get his hands on. That's basically his job.

That's why it's the President's job is to say "That's illegal. Don't do it. If you do it, I will have you fired, arrested for wiretapping, and charged for your crimes. I will do that to the next NSA Director who breaks the law. And the next. For as many as it takes, until I get an NSA Director who understands that the law supercedes what they want.", and follow through on what he said.

President Obama has failed to do this. So did President Bush. That's because they don't want to do their job, they'd rather (for whatever reason) have an NSA breaking the law.

Re:NSA Directory Keith Alexander in a nutshell

[Anonymous Coward]

I was about to say 'you folk' then it reoccurred to me that I could just say 'most people'.

Most people expect the president to be presidential and do the right thing.

Most people do not seem to have considered for a moment though, particularly Obama supporters, the possibility that Obama's shit might actually stink.

Why does this matter?

Well try this tin foil hat on for size: You think the NSA surveillance state has an impact on free speech and the press? The loudest of regular people (reporters) are 'chilled'? There have been countless analysis-style articles and discussions regarding the impact of the NSA surveillance state on free speech and the press, but no one out there is talking about the impact of the NSA surveillance state on politicians; politicians are pretty commonly known to be slimy and the ones who have the most success seem to be the most corrupt of all.

So why in the world would any president, or politician for that matter, want to go up against the NSA surveillance state? Is the risk worth the reward? Well I would say yes but then again I'm not a politician and this is exactly why: going up against the NSA surveillance state would be political suicide; not because the people wouldn't support a non surveillance state position, but for the fact that Alexandar and pals might just 'leak' something if it mitigates any threat of shutting down the NSA surveillance state.

Re:NSA Directory Keith Alexander in a nutshell

[Anonymous Coward]

And the people failed to do there's decades ago when they let their Congress critters pass the FISA legislation and keep their jobs. Point being, you can point at any number of reasons things are the way they are. There's no value to doing it. The value comes in taking actions that can improve the status quo. Find a problem and do something about it.

Re:NSA Directory Keith Alexander in a nutshell

[Anonymous Coward]

What insightful, provocative, and helpful discussion you've encouraged. Yes, you've got it all right. Let's go to a bunch of online forums and berate the other posters! Surely that is the most valuable course of action to take.

Re:NSA Directory Keith Alexander in a nutshell

[fsagx]

You think the NSA surveillance state has an impact on free speech and the press? The loudest of regular people (reporters) are 'chilled'? There have been countless analysis-style articles and discussions regarding the impact of the NSA surveillance state on free speech and the press, but no one out there is talking about the impact of the NSA surveillance state on politicians...

It is out there if you look -- But the Sunday news shows won't touch it with a 49.5' pole. Foil hat optional:

http://www.boilingfrogspost.com/2013/07/16/nsa-whistleblower-russ-tice-offers-more-details-on-the-wiretapping-of-senator-feinstein/

Re:NSA Directory Keith Alexander in a nutshell

[nigelo]

... and if we had voted out all the incumbents, you believe that the FISA legislation would have magically disappeared?

Re:NSA Directory Keith Alexander in a nutshell

[gl4ss]

well it's true. NSA chiefs job isn't to break the law at home or abroad. He made that job description up himself. Sure, his job is to gather intelligence but surprisingly to many people nowadays that doesn't make it necessary to break the laws.

just like a sports brokers job isn't actually to fix games even if that would make him more money..

Re:NSA Directory Keith Alexander in a nutshell

[Anonymous Coward]

He wants all information about everybody he can get his hands on. That's basically his job.

That's like saying it's basically a boxer's job to kill his opponent dead, dead, dead, dead. And the referee's job to keep him from it if he can.

If you sport such conceptions, you don't belong near a boxing ring.

In a similar vein, people like Clapper and Alexander don't belong anywhere where they are responsible for the privacy of citizens and the protection of the constitution because they don't understand what this is about. It's like putting pimps in charge of a nunnery because of their experience and qualifications.

Re:NSA Directory Keith Alexander in a nutshell

[dbIII]

There's still enough uncertainty with Kennedy that various spooks can mutter things that can be taken as highly veiled threats and convince people to leave them alone and go after softer targets.
Of course it's obvious that the CIA didn't kill Kennedy - he's dead after all so it couldn't have been done by the same CIA so fucked up that had one branch selling guns to Castro and another trying to stop him. That doesn't stop them from trying to take credit for it though.

Re:NSA Directory Keith Alexander in a nutshell

[Anonymous Coward]

No, it's because in 1979, the US Supreme Court said that telephone metadata isn't protected by the Fourth Amendment, so the NSA has been working within the law, unfortunately.

Re:NSA Directory Keith Alexander in a nutshell

[AlphaWoIf_HK]

But not within the constitution. Yes, I know the Supreme Court made a ridiculous ruling, but we've seen that more than a few times. The ruling in the 'fire in a crowded theater' case that lots of people seem to love referring to, for instance, was used to arrest war protestors; the Supreme Court can, does, and has come to ridiculous conclusions.

Re:NSA Directory Keith Alexander in a nutshell

[gweihir]

The explanation is easy: The NSA has dirt on Bush and Obama...

Bill to rein in NSA

[SirGarlon]

For those who don't know, Senators Wyden (D-OR), Udall (D-CO), Paul (R-KY) and Blumenthal (D-CT) say they will introduce a bill today to rein in the NSA.

Re:Bill to rein in NSA

[Deflagro]

Yea and when it fails to go anywhere, they can just say "oh well, we tried". Eventually the people might wake up and realize they haven't been in control for a very long time. Your vote means nothing and even if you replace one scumbag for another, they are all part of the same broken system. I'm guessing whoever runs the global network of federal banks is the real overlord.

They will eventually have to make a show that it's all shut down or controlled while just upping the secrecy level by creating an actual secret government agency. They already have secret courts so it's not that far a leap.

Re:Bill to rein in NSA

[Nadaka]

Yea... no.
The Democrats may have willingly and knowingly continued the program, but it was started by republicans.

Re:Bill to rein in NSA

[Anonymous Coward]

This isn't an issue with either Republicans or Democrats specifically, so enough of that nonsense.

Re:Bill to rein in NSA

[Desler]

Hahaha what? You seem to be willfully ignoring that the Republicans controlled the House during passage 229 to 205. You also seem to be ignoring that the Patriot Act was authored and introduced by a Republican Representative. You also seem to be ignoring the fact that of the 66 nays in the House that 62 were Democrats. And that Republicans voted Yea at a 3:2 margin in the House. You also seem to ignore that not a single Republican voted Nay in the Senate. The Nay was that of Democrat Russ Feingold who also warned about the Section 215 powers. The only abstention in the Senate was also a Democrat.

So to act like the passage of the Patriot Act would have been any different with a Republican controlled Senate is ludicrous when nary a single Republican senator voted against it.

Re:Bill to rein in NSA

[Desler]

And his claims of Democrat super majority is bunkus. The Republicans controlled the House and could have stopped the bill had they wanted. But not one Republican senator voted against it and only 3 Republican reprensentatives exicitly voted Nay as well. Both parties hold responsibility.

Re:Bill to rein in NSA

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm surprised that Paul's in on something with the Dems

It isn't a Dem. vs. GOP issue. It's Fascists vs. Americans--on our own soil.

Re:Bill to rein in NSA

[Desler]

And to add, the Senate was 48 D to 51 R which is not a "super majority" by any measure let alone a Democratoc super majority when both Houses were under Republican control. Nice attempt at revisionist history, though.

Re:Bill to rein in NSA

[Lunix Nutcase]

it was the Democrats with a supermajority in Congress that VOTED IT IN IN THE FIRST PLACE.

Maybe in some alternate reality. In the real world the 107th Congress was at the time of the passage of the Patriot Act

House: 219 R / 211 D / 2 I with Republican Denny Hastert as Speaker
Senate: 50 R / 50 D with Republican Strom Thurman as President Pro tempore and Dick Cheney as tie breaker

How exactly would that be a Democrat super majority?

Re:Bill to rein in NSA

[msobkow]

Yeah, that'll work.

After all, the NSA has done such a stellar job of following the laws enacted to date.

Wake up: The only way to stop the NSA is to de-fund them. And even then, there are probably "slush funds" from the FBI, CIA, and DEA that they could tap into.

Re:Bill to rein in NSA

[cold fjord]

So in short, the bill passed with the support of the vast majority of Democrats in addition to Republican votes. The Democrats then allowed it to continue when they had control of both houses of Congress, and the presidency. Got it.

I'm not surprised that not all of them supported it since many Democrats thought they already knew who was involved in the 9-11 attacks.

Re:Bill to rein in NSA

[Anonymous Coward]

and that was precisely why I changed my party affiliation. I was a Republican, now...not so much. I really was (am still) pissed off about the passage of the "Patriot Act" and would have (still like to) see those responsible be sent to the slam.

now I am fuming again...fuck!

Re:Bill to rein in NSA

[AHuxley]

Re Both parties hold responsibility. - like the GCHQ the product presented to the upper levels of US political leadership becomes addictive over generations, left and right.
The only part that was amazing was the ability to keep insights out of the press or intercept transcripts out of speeches :)

Re:Bill to rein in NSA

[dbIII]

And even then, there are probably "slush funds" from the FBI

They can always sell weapons to Hezbolla like North and Poindexter did - less than a year after Hezbolla blew up more than a hundred people at a US base including a lot of US Marines. I'm sure Israel won't mind, after all Iran is selling a lot of weapons to them already so the US making a bit of money on arms sales to Hezbolla instead would make them a bit happier wouldn't it :)

Re:Bill to rein in NSA

[Anonymous Coward]

And this is where the responsibility of the citizenry kicks in. To make this work, if that's what people really want, the next election should send a clear message. In order to do that, the *only* campaign issue, as defined by the electorate, should be about their representative's stance on the NSA, and that in failing to reign in the illegal activity, they have forfeited another term in office.

Re:Bill to rein in NSA

[Anonymous Coward]

At this point, I don't give a damn Who started it. I will give props to Whoever stops it.

Re:Bill to rein in NSA

[BenfromMO]

I agree, I don't think republicans are the issue, but democrats are not either. This particular issue seems to vary between rep to rep. Obama himself voted for the patriot act extension back when he was a senator. I don't think either party is really for or against this issue quite yet. The reason nonsense like this gets passed is because we have so many false democrats and false republicans who vote to increase their own power at the expense of the people. Until the people start voting because of this issue, neither party will take a definite stance on this issue.

If we want things to change, the best thing we can do is to start voting big Government idiots out of office such as Obama, George W., and of course McCain who in my mind is one of the worst neocons we have in congress currently.

Re:Bill to rein in NSA

[Lunix Nutcase]

As they said above, yes, both parties are responsible. But it did not pass due to some made up "Democrat super majority" since that did not exist which was their point.

National Paranoia, not National Security

[HermMunster]

Very few of American's are terrorists. Any claim otherwise is paranoia. That is not national security. It is national paranoia.

Also, it is illegal. These people are the military. The military should have no oversight of the civilian public.

The NSA is part of the DoD under the Pentagon. That makes them a military entity even if most of those working there are civilians. We have lots of civilians working in all areas of the military. They all are bound by military law and military code of conduct.

These unconstitutional actions need to end.

Re:National Paranoia, not National Security

[Nadaka]

Quite a few Americans are terrorists. They are called Tea Party members or NSA employees.

Re:National Paranoia, not National Security

[Anonymous Coward]

Very few of American's are terrorists. Any claim otherwise is paranoia. That is not national security. It is national paranoia.

Also, it is illegal. These people are the military. The military should have no oversight of the civilian public.

The NSA is part of the DoD under the Pentagon. That makes them a military entity even if most of those working there are civilians. We have lots of civilians working in all areas of the military. They all are bound by military law and military code of conduct.

These unconstitutional actions need to end.

The NSA is spying on communications as a method of industrial espionage and protecting corporate interests.

Re:National Paranoia, not National Security

[Jah-Wren Ryel]

Quite a few Americans are terrorists. They are called Tea Party members or NSA employees.

I think the Tea Party are mostly toolbags, but fuck you. Seriously, fuck you. That kind of hyperbole only serves to pull focus from the problem of the NSA - assholes like you are aiding the NSA, not fighting them.

Re:National Paranoia, not National Security

[Nadaka]

The tea party tactic of obstructing the government funding in order to bully their agenda into place is EXPLICITLY terrorism. The creation of terror for political gain.

Re:National Paranoia, not National Security

[jcr]

If you're "terrified" of not getting to live on other people's earnings, then fuck you.

-jcr

Re:National Paranoia, not National Security

[Jah-Wren Ryel]

The tea party tactic of obstructing the government funding in order to bully their agenda into place is EXPLICITLY terrorism. The creation of terror for political gain.

Baloney. You've watered down the word "terrorism" to mean everything and nothing. Nobody is "terrified" about the government funding. That's just political brinkmanship.

You really are part of the problem with that kind of crap.

Re:National Paranoia, not National Security

[Anonymous Coward]

Wow, you sure showed that strawman what's what!

Re:National Paranoia, not National Security

[Anubis IV]

I hate to be in a position where I'm defending them, but what laws did you have in mind? Mind you, I'm not suggesting they're not breaking laws (clearly they are, such as the US Constitution, as you said), but I am suggesting that they aren't subject to a lot of the laws that the armed forces are subject to, which is what it seemed like you were implying.

For instance, the Posse Comitatus Act that limits Presidential power is specific in referring to the armed forces, rather than the military or the DoD as a whole (originally it referred to just the Army, but related laws and amendments have since included the other branches of the armed forces as well). Similarly, the civilians in the NSA don't fall under the jurisdiction of the UCMJ, which seems to only apply to the armed forces. Those are two of the big ones that most of us think about when we think about laws that keep the military in check, and neither of them seem to apply here.

Obviously, there are other laws that they are subject to, and their military personnel, one of whom is the director of the NSA, would still be subject to military law, but it seems to me as if they've done a decent job of insulating themselves from quite a few of the laws that we'd like to have apply to them.

At the end of the day though, I'm firmly in your camp and agree that the things they're doing need to stop, regardless of whether or not those particular laws apply.

Re:National Paranoia, not National Security

[Anonymous Coward]

Are you referring to the bill passed by the House that funds ALL of government except for Obama's pet project?
No, its Obama holding the government funding in order to bully everyone over a SINGLE line item.

I see debate with democrats is no longer possible. It is now their way or you are a racist terrorist. They are too immature to run the government any longer.

Re:National Paranoia, not National Security

[Anonymous Coward]

Very few of American's are terrorists. Any claim otherwise is paranoia. That is not national security. It is national paranoia.

Also, it is illegal. These people are the military. The military should have no oversight of the civilian public.

Except in a state of emergency. The U.S.A. has been formally in a state of emergency continuously sometime since the 60s or 70s or so (I forgot). Look it up. It's a-fscking-mazing.

Re:National Paranoia, not National Security

[Anonymous Coward]

I hate to inject logic into your emotional outburst, but unless you literally grow all your own food, build all your own buildings and infrastructure, generate your own electricity, refine your own fuel, sew your own clothes, and lithographed your own processor to create this post on this wonderful internet you globally wired with your own two hands, you are living off of other people's earnings. Please don't be one of those people.

Re:National Paranoia, not National Security

[Anonymous Coward]

I hate to inject logic into your emotional outburst, but unless you literally grow all your own food, build all your own buildings and infrastructure, generate your own electricity, refine your own fuel, sew your own clothes, and lithographed your own processor to create this post on this wonderful internet you globally wired with your own two hands, you are living off of other people's earnings. Please don't be one of those people.

You are a complete moron. That is a compliment by the way. "Logic"... Hah.

Re:National Paranoia, not National Security

[jcr]

I hate to inject logic ..and that's why you didn't! Good for you.

-jcr

Re:National Paranoia, not National Security

[Anonymous Coward]

isn't encryption considered a munition? How are they not armed forces?

Re:National Paranoia, not National Security

[Anubis IV]

Not last I checked. It's controlled and can't be exported in some cases, but it's not a munition. To be an armed force, you need to actually be wielding guns, typically.

VoIP?

[noh8rz10]

What about VoIP? Is that a workaround for now?

Re:VoIP?

[Phreakiture]

I am not sure why you would think it might be . . . .

Re:VoIP?

[Anonymous Coward]

The government will surely send national security letters to VOIP providers for their records. Even if they are overseas and do not cooperate, the person on the receiving end of your phone call surely has a company that will cooperate. Unless you are making VoIP calls between providers that are not providing records, it will likely get logged.

Re:VoIP?

[gl4ss]

depends what voip. if it's encrypted and proxied around then yeah, sure. or if you're just flooding your link to the other guy all the time then they can't at least tell that you were talking at a particular moment.

really, encryption and flooding the links are the only answers.

if you mean skype, just forget about it, it's not any more private than calling over a landline.

Re:VoIP?

[bigfoottoo]

A short-term solution is to use a Raspberry Pi or a Beaglebone as an intermediary encryption device for VOIP thru your cell phone. The SOC board would be WiFi enabled with a dongle, and the user would be connected to the SOC with a wired headset. Newer cell phones can establish a personal WiFi hotspot. The cell phone would stay in a pocket, and the SOC would likely stay in a shirt pocket. There is an abundance of open source VOIP software available, and surely it could be modified to work in this system. This WILL WORK, but the required effort is non-trivial. The NSA's activities are blatantly unconstitutional, but it is unlikely that anything will change as long a polititions are involved. If the situation is to be improved, it will be up to us do it.

Can someone please lend me $1,880,000,000 urgent!

[Anonymous Coward]

That's how much money the government is borrowing every day of the week!

Almost two billion dollars a day!

With no plan to ever pay it back!

It's so nice of ?whoever? to keep lending us money to buy all these cool computers!

We love snooping on you!

Stupid Republicans

[Jah-Wren Ryel]

So Ted Cruz just fauxilibustered for like 24 hours trying to convince us that Obamacare is Nazism on steroids. If he had any sense of strategy he would have been pointing at the NSA and saying that they are going to slurp up every bit of medical data that Obamacare creates, that the NSA is going to have your most intimate medical details on file at their fingertips.

Even if you don't tell anyone that you've got herpes the NSA will know it. They will know when you are pregnant, when you miscarry, when you decide to have an abortion because your fetus tests positive for down syndrome. They will know the results of any DNA parentage tests even when you don't tell your own family.

Re:Stupid Republicans

[Culture20]

Even if you don't tell anyone that you've got herpes the NSA will know it. They will know when you are pregnant, when you miscarry, when you decide to have an abortion because your fetus tests positive for down syndrome. They will know the results of any DNA parentage tests even when you don't tell your own family.

... so be good for goodness' sake!

Re:Stupid Republicans

[Anonymous Coward]

Here's a nice list of what's bothering the Republicans today. It's a leaked list, but published by the National Review. So take plenty of salt. There's nothing on there about privacy at all.

Re:Stupid Republicans

[Anonymous Coward]

But seriously. I hope everyone has noticed how medical offices that have adopted Electronic Health Records routinely snap a digital photograph (think ... facial recognition), and ask that you sign, amongst all the lawyerese protecting the doctor from various forms of redress, a privacy agreement that explicitly provides for disseminating your private information for "nation security purposes".

Also consider how your routine blood test easily facilitates DNA fingerprinting.

And now we have National Health Insurance (or the equivalent concept by another name) set to go live next week.

Please consider refusing to let your health care provider take your picture "...for the electronic heather record", and cross out the "privacy" provision that permits any non-medical-related release of your personal information.

why should we care about these assurances?

[circletimessquare]

i don't trust what the nsa says, does anyone?

they do everything in secret

they've been shown to have reneged on every assurance they've given so far

the nsa is a dagger pointed at the heart of our bill of rights, and operates with impunity of any oversight or control

the entire program needs to be wound down and focused on actual surveillance of actual terrorist targets, not this vacuum cleaner for everything

do we still have the backbone to press our representatives to ensure this is done?

Weren't we warned?

[Sir Holo]

"He who sacrifices freedom for security..." – B.J.F.

"The tree of liberty must..." – T.J.

"In the councils of government, we must..." – D.D.E.

On a more positive note, at least the gears of legislation seem to be responding.

NSA=commie

[sjames]

Wasn't it always the dirty commies that spied on their own people and didn't care if they liked it or not?

Why does the NSA hate democracy?

Re:NSA=commie

[Anonymous Coward]

NSA=commie

I think a more direct comparison would be:

NSA = KGB

Re:NSA=commie

[Anonymous Coward]

Or the Stasi http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stasi
Excellent movie recommendation: The Lives of Others

Re:NSA=commie

[Anonymous Coward]

Why is this rated +4 Funny? It should be +5 Observant.

Utah facility

[Elvenbane]

The Utah facility looks mighty impressive as I drive past. It is an impressive set of buildings.

Re:Utah facility

[Anonymous Coward]

The Utah facility looks mighty impressive as I drive past. It is an impressive set of buildings.

So was The Sphinx when it was built.

Re:Utah facility

[AHuxley]

http://ktep.org/post/booting-new-nsa-data-farm-takes-root-utah
'100 or so technicians" "Intelligence analysts will log in remotely from NSA facilities in and outside the U.S."

Show of hands

[PPH]

Who wants this crap to continue "in the name of fighting terrorism"? The alternative seems to be we lose 3000 people every dozen years or so. Big deal. I say we write off our losses every once in a while and stop shitting ourselves.

Re:Show of hands

[Anonymous Coward]

Who wants this crap to continue "in the name of fighting terrorism"? The alternative seems to be we lose 3000 people every dozen years or so. Big deal. I say we write off our losses every once in a while and stop shitting ourselves.

Yeah, no shit. Let's stop being afraid every time something bad happens, and be better ourselves. Terrorists hate liberty. But no, we make a big deal out of every terror incident, then the media gets involved, and then our governmental bodies write new laws clamping down on freedoms in the name of preventing whatever it was from happening again, and then when you give a mouse a cookie, it has to have a glass of milk...

I say...FUCK MILK. Don't give that mouse SHIT.

Any act that limits our freedom is a reward for the terrorist or the person committing the crime. Instead, our best response to an act of terrorism (or anything really...shootings, disasters, whatever) is to mourn our losses, rebuild what we can, and CONTINUE ENJOYING FREEDOM.

Re:Show of hands

[gweihir]

Your estimation of the losses is vastly overstated. Your estimation of you fellow citizens as non-cowards is too.

(Your row in the NSA database

[dpilot]

I wonder how much information the NSA has on Little Bobby Tables... Can they really sanitize their inputs, when it's all dirty?

Re:NSA=commie...not

[Anonymous Coward]

The NSA LOVES democracy. They depend on the majority of the masses to say "Y, save us from those terrorist!"

Re:NSA=commie...not

[sjames]

I literally don't know anyone who wants them to continue their domestic spying.

Makes me think of an old Arlo Guthrie Song..

[RevSpaminator]

And friends, somewhere in Utah enshrined in some hard drive, is a study in black and white of my metadata.

I'M MAD AS HELL

[darrellg1]

What kind of balls does it take to stand up in front of everyone and say they want to treat every citizen as a suspect? The real surprise will be when nobody reports this and there are no consequences.
There's a civil respose: Create a new political party by and for regular people. Vote these shitheads out of office.
Uncivil response: I'll let you guess.
What is it going to take? Stop paying taxes and send a note to our govt. saying we will no longer fund this crap? Put a F U in the "amount paid" box on our 1040?
And then there's those two fucking bitches who objected to further questioning and shut it down. Let's sit outside their house with directional microphones and stream it live to a website called Senators Gone Live! When they complain about their privacy, we get to slap them as hard as we fucking can.

Re:I'M MAD AS HELL

[Anonymous Coward]

Read some of the responses above. Its Obama's NSA and appointees doing this and the majority of people are blaming the GOP. Why would he stop? The more of it he does the more campaign fund raising he gets and the more people jump on his side.

To stop it, you have to blame the guy in charge. Obama. However, we all know that attempting to hold him responsible for anything makes you a racist.

Re:I'M MAD AS HELL

[Anonymous Coward]

Read some of the responses above. Its Obama's NSA and appointees doing this and the majority of people are blaming the GOP.

What they're doing is assigning the GOP their rightful share of blame for helping sow the seeds of these shenanigans with the Patriot Act and calling them out for suddenly deciding they care about civil liberties once they became something to criticize Obama on. (Just as they did with the Federal deficit and debt)

Re:I'M MAD AS HELL

[Anonymous Coward]

See? A pass for the guy doing it and his political opponents get more blame. If I were Obama I would crank it up even more.

As long as this continues it won't end.

Re:I'M MAD AS HELL

[Anonymous Coward]

Someone of even modest intelligence can see the term "share of blame" and rightly assume that to mean there are others I think deserve some as well, but I'm clearly not dealing with such a person. Nowhere did I say Obama is blameless in this so you can put that back in with the rest of your strawmen.

Obama (and the democrats) deserve blame for this shit, plenty of it. What he doesn't deserve is sole blame, no matter how badly republicans want to assign it to him in the hopes people will forget how piss-poor their own record on civil liberties is.

Re:I'M MAD AS HELL

[Anonymous Coward]

A more effective civil response would be to call a general strike. Nobody should have to put up with the current conditions. No Freedom of Speech, can't have a private conversation at work without having it recorded. Even if only 1% of the population dropped out of the economy it would have a large enough effect to compel positive reforms. The only thing they care about is the economy. Vote with your feet and wallet.

Re:I'M MAD AS HELL

[Anonymous Coward]

Cancel your cell phone plan. It's no good to you if you're terrorized by what you can and can't say. Also the location tracking takes away your freedom of association.

The Cold War is over

[Anonymous Coward]

the bad guys won.

Re:The Cold War is over

[fsagx]

the bad guys won.

That's who was playing!

Frank Zappa was right :

[Anonymous Coward]

"The illusion of freedom [in America] will continue as long as it’s profitable to continue the illusion. At the point where the illusion becomes too expensive to maintain, they will just take down the scenery, they will pull back the curtains, they will move the tables and chairs out of the way and you will see the brick wall at the back of the theater."

Umm, *don't* "bring it", plz

[Impy the Impiuos Imp]

"George Washington just called Paul Revere and they conferenced in, you're not gonna believe this, freakin' Benjamin freakin' Franklin!"

"A celeb involved in this rebellion? Wtf. Well, n/m, let's round 'em up. I feel a promotion coming on!"

I am still waiting for ...

[whoever57]

I am wating for Senator Dianne Feinstein to make her phone records public.

What's that you say, phone records are private? HYPOCRITE!

Not merely illegal, but unconstitutional.

[jcr]

Andrew Napolitano explains very clearly why the FISA "court" is an unconstitutional institution, and not a court of law at all.

Even if the FISA court was a legal forum, no court in this country has the authority to override the 4th amendment.

-jcr

3rd party

[Anonymous Coward]

Americans really need some diversity in the political field. A 3rd party would be a wind of change to the current black and white setting.

Re:NSA=commie...not

[Culture20]

I know some people in the NSA, and knowing their characters (but not having talked to them lately), I'm pretty sure they don't want the domestic spying to continue either.

All your base are belong to us

[mspohr]

That is: All your base are belong to U.S.

What is the Punishment For Violating Civil Rights?

[Anonymous Coward]

Why haven't charges been brought for these violations of the Fourth Amendment?

I want Alexander and Clapper imprisoned for what they are doing.

What are you going to do about it?

[Anonymous Coward]

Let me guess.

Collectively, nothing.

Responsibilty lies with the politicians

[Mr 44]

Why do people don't get this more? The NSA/Military are (for the most part) carrying out the policies and directives set by their civilian over-seers.

Michael Hayden actually expressed this very clearly:

Former NSA Director Michael Hayden exemplifies this in a quote from late July: âoeGive me the box you will allow me to operate in. Iâ(TM)m going to play to the very edges of that box.â

NSA not fighting terrorism!

[Anonymous Coward]

They are spying for business.

Don't Worry it's MetaData

[garytencents]

Does anybody realize that it's the meta data that actually counts? What is at stake is the freedom of association.No one cares about the some terrorist chat chatting about the next meeting, they want to know WHO you associate with and that way the relationships can be tracked. Guess what? Your relationships are now tracked openly. People are morons to allow this to happen.

Not entirely true

[Charliemopps]

First let me say: I work for a phone company. I'm a DBA, I've had my hands on just about everything, so I know what's possible and what's not. Also, no, I do not know of any access the NSA has to our records. Clearly they could have API access but I'm pretty sure I'd have heard about it. If they are in our systems it's likely without our knowledge.
Second: I hate the NSA and everything they are doing. I do not doubt they are already collecting everything they possibly can.

But...
We don't collect "All phone records" All this meta-data everyone is talking about is useless to us. Why would we keep a record of you calling your brother? If it's a toll free call we could give a fuck less and it's NOT recorded. You have to remember that the majority of phone switches in the US today were built in the 60's and 70's. The largest drives they have are incredibly old 20mb hard drives the size of a phone book. (ironic huh?) To allow us to store more data, these drives are dumped via netowork every night to standard Oracle databases. If the NSA is hacking us, this is likely where they get their info. As all the daily data rolls off we can collect more. But the truth of it is, we only collect data for billing purposes. So if your call doesn't generate a charge it doesn't get logged. The switch does not have the disk space to store it. We CAN log all your calls, if requested. CALEA requests come in for that sort of thing, but the number of lines that can be going on in one switch at a time is very limited. The data stacks up fast and we have engineers checking regularly to make sure there aren't too many running at once. I think the most I ever saw, in a city of 50k+ was 3...

Then you have the toll calls. Now your phone company logs those but where the call actually goes? No... They know you dialed X number, were on the phone for Xmin and they charge you. Where the call actually went they have no idea. If you have a number in Istanbul that automatically forwards to some other number? Your phone company has no clue. Your phone company looks up the number from a public list, figures out which exchange it belongs to, then passes the call along the cheapest route to that destination. Each subsequent exchange only knows where the call is headed and the preceding exchange. They do not know who made the call, they may get caller id info but that stuff is ridiculously easy to fake. Your call jumps from exchange A to B to C to D to E... all exchange C knows is that the call is headed to E and it came from B... so they can bill B... B bills A and so on. The only exchange the NSA could get any real data from is A, the one the call originated from.

Long story short, this data is pretty much useless for terrorists. If you're making ANY attempt to disguise where you're calling they're pretty much out of luck. Disposable cellphones from wallmart pretty much make this entire effort pointless.

Now the real question is: What is the NSA really using this data for?

Re:Not entirely true

[AHuxley]

Your call jumps from exchange A to B to C to D to E... all exchange C knows is that the call is headed to E and it came from B... so they can bill B... B bills A and so on. The only exchange the NSA could get any real data from is A, the one the call originated from.
The NSA and GCHQ have global reach. That was the bright idea behind digital exchanges, packets, layers and international law enforcement treaties had some real good tracking options.
The hardware and its encryption as a global export standard was set/weakened/accessible to/shared with the NSA/GCHQ. That exchange level destination (B,C,D,E) is as local to the NSA as A was.
Add in voice prints and any "telco disguise" is an epic fail too.
Domestically the trick seemed to be suggesting the data sets where too large to keep (~billing), illegal to share with the US gov, somehow private to the private sector for billing only.
The data use in the US would be the same as any other country domestically. Are you calling the press, a political leader, local activist, trade unionist, author, a federal agency, a state agency, internal affairs, a political foundation.
The next question is who is that person and why would an individual feel the need to make that first call.

Re:Not entirely true

[Anonymous Coward]

Another naive new hire..."but I'm pretty sure I'd have heard about it." About like the last time you were about to laid off, "and you had heard about it" directly from the CEO?. Mr. 1157495.

Here's an FYI for you newbie. Technology is controlled by hardware. Without hardware your DBA skills are useless. It has always been that way and will always be. In other words hardware does not have to communicate with the software side to tell you what it is doing. It can skip layers on a whim if that is what it's designed to do. That's a fact. OSI model 101.

The fact is no company gives system wide access to "a DBA". The whole idea that "it doesn't get logged", "it's not recorded" is naive. As a security specialist it was my job to make sure people like you, who I worked along side, knew nothing of what was actually be logged and tracked, and that was just in my company. Just because it's not in the your database(your world) doesn't mean it's not being tracked, utilized, or sold, etc.

Grow up.

Re:Not entirely true

[Anonymous Coward]

Perhaps one could watch the control traffic between switches and capture who's calling who, even if the switch itself doesn't.

Re:Not entirely true

[Charliemopps]

Why does every keep replying as if I were saying the NSA wasn't spying on us at all? Clearly they are... I was specifically talking about capturing metadata... That's it. My point was, the PHONE COMPANY doesn't even capture most of that data... so it just does not exist for the NSA to take.

Can they use their prism thing to mirror a transatlantic trunk and monitor phone calls? Sure! I doubt the efficiency of that method though. And it has nothing to due with Metadata, the subject of my post and this article.

Re:Not entirely true

[Reziac]

Congratulations. You've reinvented FidoNet.

Re:Not entirely true

[Anonymous Coward]

the PHONE COMPANY doesn't even capture most of that data...

... except for at least AT&T, who we know has kept everything since 1987.

We need to start sending exploits!

[Anonymous Coward]

We need to start sending text messages, modem calls, and email signatures w/ buffer overflow-scale values, followed by every database exploit known.

If my data's going to Utah, I want it to crash whatever reads it.

God, how I hate this.

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't even do anything worth hiding, and I hate the explosion of universal surveillance we're letting happen. Let me count the aphorisms that apply...things like "...and absolute power corrupts absolutely", or "The road to hell is paved with good intentions", etc. But there's so much money and power behind proliferation of the surveillance state, it cannot be stopped. This will end in tears for most of us.

Still funded

[Smiddi]

How many actual "terrorists" have been caught using this technology? ....1? 2? As this form of "monitoring" has yeild no results in capturing actual "terrorists" then why is it still being funded? .

Why give a shit?

[Anonymous Coward]

I have NOTHING to hide from the NSA. I could care less if they have my information. What do you people think they're going to do with it? NOTHING.

everyone at the nsa should be raped

[Anonymous Coward]

In a totally nonenjoyable way

Thanks so much Obama.

[Anonymous Coward]

Like when the US president is the terrorist, then what??

Re:Thanks so much Obama.

[gweihir]

Simple: Critical democracy fail and those that are responsible for that (called "voters" commonly) are going to suffer for a few decades. Reality often extracts a pretty horrible price for stupidity.

If NSA didn't predict Snowden ...

[Anonymous Coward]

If the NSA, with all of their vast pools of data, didn't even get an inkling that Snowden was about to reveal all, they they must be quite useless. Perhaps the billions of dollar would be better spend making poorer US citizens more comfortable. It would probably be more effective.

Re:If NSA didn't predict Snowden ...

[gweihir]

You must subscribe to the myth that the NSA is actually concerned about terrorists, i.e. rare individuals. They are not. They want to know what larger groups think, are going to do and which few millions of the population to put into concentration camps when the coup finally comes.

Honest question

[hibji]

But we do know that the NSA *does* monitor phone traffic.

For example, telecom interception at att:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Room_641A

How do you reconcile what you said with this information. Is room 641 a lie?

Re:Honest question

[Charliemopps]

That is a completely different situation. Yes, they are collecting everything they can. That's all data. So maybe some calls that have been converted to Voip and area headed long distance. But all they are getting (as far as phone calls go) is the entry point and the exit point of THAT network. The way phone calls are routed, that's not a lot of information. Now if both the caller and the receiver are AT&T customers they likely have a lot more information. But if they are different carriers then they really don't have a lot of info. I'm talking about meta-data here, not directly snooping on the call or Man in the middle attacks on network connections. That's a whole different subject.

Like I need a reason

[SmallFurryCreature]

Like I need a reason to wear foil underpants. Crispy!

NONSENSE

[Anonymous Coward]

"surveillance court" is a facy phrase used to fool the public into believing it's an actual court of law...It's not!

Doing something in the "name of fighting terrorism" could be applied to ANYTHING. Especially since Mr. Obama likes to call everything terrorism. Protestors, Activist, Hackers, etc. etc.

Steam?

[Anonymous Coward]

Maybe I'm getting old, but the desktop with the NSA background in the article looks like it has a Steam icon in the menu bar... Maybe, if we get them all distracted by playing Steam and reading Slashdot, we'll be OK.

Not to worry

[biggaijin]

Senator Feinstein has assured reporters that she is sure this is all legal, so it must be.