Nvidia Removed Linux Driver Feature For Feature Parity With Windows

And this why communism doesn't work by Anonymous Coward · 2013-10-04 22:46 · Score: 5, Funny

It makes everyone equal with Windows.

Re: And this why communism doesn't work by Anonymous Coward · 2013-10-05 01:50 · Score: 2, Insightful

No. Free nouveou is communism. Binary blob is dictatorship

Thus: by Zanadou · 2013-10-04 22:51 · Score: 5, Insightful

"We have altered the deal; pray we do not alter it again."

Re:Thus: by mysidia · 2013-10-05 01:13 · Score: 4, Informative

What deal? The only deal would be between Nvidea and Microsoft, who I'm sure paid a princely sum to hide one of Windows' various deficiencies.
Why do that, when you control the Windows logo rules?
Windows must have a preferred status; features available to Windows users must surpass the list of features available to users of competing platforms; that is, as a condition of applying Windows logo certification to a qualifying hardware product, Hardware must have an experience or supported featureset on Windows that exceeds the user experience on any competing operating system.
Re:Thus: by L.+J.+Beauregard · 2013-10-05 01:57 · Score: 4, Insightful

Now ask again why we need antitrust laws with teeth.

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Re:Thus: by ColdWetDog · 2013-10-05 02:06 · Score: 4, Insightful

They've got Balmer, we don't need antitrust laws.

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Re:Thus: by devent · 2013-10-05 02:09 · Score: 2

Could you give the source of your quote?

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Re:Thus: by mgiuca · 2013-10-05 02:40 · Score: 3, Insightful

I'd love to know whether that's a real quote from the Windows logo rules. Unfortunately, a Google search for the text returns only one result: this comment. [Citation needed]
Re:Thus: by mysidia · 2013-10-05 03:38 · Score: 2, Interesting

This is not a quote. It is an implication; that behind closed doors, between vendors, there is an "arrangement" MS requires, and if they refuse to comply --- MS has the stick of refusing logo certification to their product ---- if nVidia doesn't get the Windows Logo; then neither do any of the hardware builders or OEMs using nVidia components; therefore, they are likely to ship someone else's hardware instead, so they can get the logo.
Some of the Logo certification requirements
As for multiple monitors with SLI Mosaic.... remember what that is?
Multiple real GPUs responsible for all the various monitors, presented to the operating system as one Logical GPU; so, the OS interacts with one GPU, but the responsibility for the display changes between GPUs.....
What do the WHQL requirements say? Well, nVidia needs an exception. How likely is MS to grant the exception to their requirements to their business partner, if/when they learn nVidia has provided better Linux support than Windows support, when the feature is used?

Target Feature: System.Fundamentals.Graphics
Title: If a Windows 8 system has Multiple GPU's, the graphics and system test must pass in every "Operating Mode"

3. Not-allowed Features. These are features that create unavoidable scenarios that do not meet Windows experience expectations,
do not meet certification requirements, and prevent the system from getting certification.

Switchable Graphics Not Allowed Not Allowed

Switchable Graphics: Two or more GPUs from either the same vendor or different vendors where the responsibility for display output to any monitor changes from one processor to the other, typically through a MUX. Starting with Windows 8 systems, this feature is not allowed.
Re:Thus: by Raenex · 2013-10-05 05:29 · Score: 4, Insightful

This is not a quote. It is an implication; that behind closed doors, between vendors, there is an "arrangement" MS requires, and if they refuse to comply --- MS has the stick of refusing logo certification to their product ---- if nVidia doesn't get the Windows Logo; then neither do any of the hardware builders or OEMs using nVidia components; therefore, they are likely to ship someone else's hardware instead, so they can get the logo.
In other words, you made up a phony quote that looks like it's copied straight from a real policy and got modded to +5 Informative, when instead it's just speculation on your part.
Re: Thus: by mrchaotica · 2013-10-05 16:28 · Score: 2

But doesn't Wayland get rid of all the remote desktop capabilities and whatnot too? I suppose I understand the need to break compatibility (in order to move to a more flexible driver model) but I don't understand the need to break compatibility gratuitously (by changing the API more than it absolutely has to) or the need to remove features.

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"[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz
Re: Thus: by Mabhatter · 2013-10-05 17:12 · Score: 2

Well from experience Microsoft has secret contract terms like this that repeatedly come out after years of competitive interests being shitcanned on support from hardware vendors or OEMS. So while this exact term may be made up, it most certainly EXISTS in their contracts... Because that's Microsoft's MO.

QA by Anonymous Coward · 2013-10-04 22:55 · Score: 3, Insightful

I bet it's just for the test cases.

SteamOS by BenJeremy · 2013-10-04 22:59 · Score: 3, Interesting

I wonder how this will affect SteamOS, since the Steam Machines are nvidia based. Maybe Valve will start throwing their weight around to get nvidia to offer better Linux support?

Re:SteamOS by DragonTHC · 2013-10-04 23:27 · Score: 2

They already have. I don't remember reading anything about SteamOS being completely opensource.

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They're using their grammar skills there.
Re:SteamOS by _merlin · 2013-10-04 23:32 · Score: 2

Considering it's a console that plugs into a TV, I don't think this matters much at all. Valve's definitely been throwing their weight around demanding better performance and fewer bugs, though. nVidia Linux drivers have been performing better with every release.
Re: SteamOS by jeff.d.woods · 2013-10-04 23:49 · Score: 5, Interesting

Valve stated that SteamOS will be open source. Even their prototype beta hardware will be open and hackable.
Re:SteamOS by sadboyzz · 2013-10-05 04:09 · Score: 2

Meanwhile as of 3.11 the kernel "radeon" driver is already fully functional, complete with power management and KMS support.
Frankly I'd wager nvidia has already lost on Linux, even though it may currently appear they are still the preferred platform with their higher quality binary driver. But binary drivers have a very limited future on Linux, especially such a critical one as the graphics driver. AMD may have a shitty binary driver, but the "radeon" driver is miles ahead of "nouveau", and once they start seeing the signs on the wall it will be a simple matter for them to put in a little effort and make "radeon" the best graphics driver for gaming on Linux. It's hard to see how nvidia can ever catch up with AMD even if they somehow miraculously changed their attitude toward open source in the near future.
Re: SteamOS by Raenex · 2013-10-05 05:49 · Score: 2

Valve stated that SteamOS will be open source.
I've looked, and found no reference for this. On their SteamOS page, they hint at it but it's nebulous:
"Cooperating system
Steam is not a one-way content broadcast channel, it's a collaborative many-to-many entertainment platform, in which each participant is a multiplier of the experience for everyone else. With SteamOS, "openness" means that the hardware industry can iterate in the living room at a much faster pace than they've been able to. Content creators can connect directly to their customers. Users can alter or replace any part of the software or hardware they want. Gamers are empowered to join in the creation of the games they love. SteamOS will continue to evolve, but will remain an environment designed to foster these kinds of innovation."

Removing feature for parity with another platform? by DJ+Rubbie · 2013-10-04 23:04 · Score: 5, Interesting

Anyway, if i'm right, optimus support under linux is not on par with windows.
Are you nvidia going to fix optimus on linux, or "for feature parity" are you going to make the optimus support worse on windows too?

Directly quoting someone from that thread because this was exactly what I was thinking of.

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nouveau by Sqr(twg) · 2013-10-04 23:17 · Score: 5, Insightful

All this time I've been pissed at the nouveau drivers that came as default with my linux distribution. "NVIDIA's drivers are working perfectly" I thought. "Why the hell are you building something not as good, just to make it open source?"

Now I know.

Re: nouveau by Anonymous Coward · 2013-10-04 23:25 · Score: 2, Informative

Silly RMS and his free software. He is starting to look quite a bit more insightful, decades after he started his public campaign.
Re:nouveau by razman47 · 2013-10-05 00:11 · Score: 2

It still lacks critical features like proper power management, which means cards using Nouveau tend to have reduced lifespans compared to the binary drivers which actually control the fans and voltages properly.
Nouveau is a good idea and should be encouraged, but there's no fucking way I'll touch it even if NVIDIA treats Linux like a second-class citizen. And honestly, if you aren't used to being treated like a second (or after OS X, a third-class citizen) on the desktop computing world, you haven't used Linux for long enough.
Re:nouveau by razman47 · 2013-10-05 02:01 · Score: 2

Check what I wrote. I didn't blame the people working on Nouveau at all, it's a tough job and I even said we should encourage their work. It's just that the current results are shit for those who have high performance and functionality standards. It's stupid to ignore the reality of the situation just because it's not ideal and I'm not going to sugar-coat the current situation.
As for NVIDIA hardware, it's still got the best support in Linux when you want power. At work we use CUDA because OpenCL still isn't good enough (like Nouveau it's "ok", but we demand the best possible performance and capability - fuck if it's open source or not, in my business results are the most important). It's not ideal, but we don't live in an ideal world and one needs to remember that we're not out to change it.
Re: nouveau by Anonymous Coward · 2013-10-05 05:42 · Score: 2, Insightful

Starting to? He looked insightful from the start to anyone with similar insight. What you mean is that it's taken decades for you to start realizing some of the things he's been preaching for so long.
Or perhaps, some of RMS's decades-old insights have become obvious now.
Re:nouveau by cpghost · 2013-10-05 06:32 · Score: 2

Now I know.
It's much more difficult to hide an NSA backdoor in nouveau than in the closed-source nVidia blobs. Just so you know more.

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cpghost at Cordula's Web.
Re: nouveau by cpghost · 2013-10-05 09:01 · Score: 2

RMS was always insightful. We were just trying to cut corners by being "pragmatists". We fully deserved what we got out of this consumerist, passive stance. Oh, not all of us (Theo, are you reading this?), but most of us deserve to be hit by a clue bat every now and then.

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cpghost at Cordula's Web.

Re:NVIDIA -- fuck you! by VortexCortex · 2013-10-04 23:18 · Score: 3, Insightful

Yeah, well, If Linus had listened to RMS about binary blobs then he wouldn't be giving the finger to NVIDIA, eh? Fucking hypocrite, IMO.

not the first time they remove features. by DragonTHC · 2013-10-04 23:26 · Score: 4, Interesting

They removed basic customizable anaglyph support from both after I detailed how you could hack 3D support into Left 4 Dead and other games.

And I'm still an Nvidia fanboy.

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They're using their grammar skills there.

Re:not the first time they remove features. by Blaskowicz · 2013-10-04 23:44 · Score: 4, Informative

I used that feature on a Geforce 2MX to try it out, a good while ago. No idea what you mean by "hacking" 3D support, you only had to press a hotkey to enable Stereo 3D in any game or app (with or without great results, but at least it's working or trying to). Five year laters I tried shutter glasses on Geforce 6/7 (too bad FSAA wasn't working, as I had to run at 640x480 or 800x600 on the old CRT to play with stereo).
Anaglyph was really shit though, it fucks your color vision (after using it for a hour your eyes or brain compensate, if you look away from the screen and close one eye, one eye sees in red and the other in blue! to this day my right eye seems to see in a warm tint and the left eye in a cold one)

They still dont get it by lapm · 2013-10-04 23:47 · Score: 4, Interesting

Nvidia still dosent get it.. Reminds me of now famous Torvalds quote from video where he send hes regards to Nvidia..

Re:They still dont get it by imnotanumber · 2013-10-05 01:48 · Score: 2

Nvidia still dosent get it.. Reminds me of now famous Torvalds quote from video where he send hes regards to Nvidia..
What doesn't it get that the quote from Linus reminds you of? That Linux developers are unprofessional? I think it gets that very well.
Nvidia still doesn't get that removing a feature, from the linux driver, to level it with the one for an inferior product is a big "f_ck you" to their linux costumers.
If that is being professional I think that calling " Linux developers are unprofessional" is praising them.
Re:They still dont get it by whoever57 · 2013-10-05 03:42 · Score: 2

Nvidia still dosent get it.
Nvidia gets it alright. They just don't agree.
In this case, I think that Nvidia is using driver capabilities to sell new chips. What happens is that the chips are designed with a certain feature set, but the driver does not enable all of them. Later, "new" chips are released, but the only real change is a change to the drivers, which now unlock features already in the prior chips.

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The real "Libtards" are the Libertarians!

The real reply by EmagGeek · 2013-10-05 00:19 · Score: 3, Insightful

"In order to sell more video cards, we set BaseMosaic to 3 screens."

Closed source... by wbr1 · 2013-10-05 00:20 · Score: 2

It's our party and we'll fuck you if we want to, fuck you if we want to.

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Silence is a state of mime.

A new law by mattr · 2013-10-05 00:49 · Score: 4, Interesting

For any people with free time, how about starting a PAC to get a new law passed that would require hardware manufacturers to provide full specifications of their products to consumers in a standardized format? It could be used not only for open source developers (rights of the consumer to use purchased gear as he or she sees fit) but also could be used to guarantee and verify all provided functions and that there aren't any additional spyware functions included. Conceivably it could be used in a software / firmware binary verification program too.

Re:A new law by TheGratefulNet · 2013-10-05 02:20 · Score: 2

we don't follow our existing laws - and you want to create new ones?
there is a law against NSA spying on citizens but they do it anyway.
besides, you can't get the gov to sign any laws that tie their hands on spying. and spyware, whether corporate or governmental is not going to be outlawed. that would interfere with, well, business and government! at least the current bad behavior of those two.
the time when government stood up for consumers' rights was 20 or more years ago. the last few decades, well, not so much. don't expect any help from those in power and don't expect anyone with morals to be able to -get- into power, to change things.

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Re:I smell a lawsuit... by datapharmer · 2013-10-05 01:44 · Score: 4, Insightful

Not really so. We ran a comparison before our last server purchase for a larger client and AMD won the performance per dollar ratio for virtualization with the dl 385 g7. I'm also about to make a large desktop refresh purchase for a cost conscious company and the amd offerings from various suppliers offer more bang for the buck. They are mostly using standard office applications, and in a couple cases light adobe work (photoshop, Indesign etc) and for the price even on the more heavily utilized computers we can add a dedicated graphics card and more ram for the same price or less than buying an intel based box. Given that the ram is more expandable on many of the amd chipsets and the raw cpu power just isn't that important any more for the 90% use case it makes sense to have a homogenous environment, so intel is likely out of the picture completely.

In a car anaology, if you are a racecar driver you need a racecar, but as a car manufacturer don't rest on your laurels and think you can charge more just because you have a really fast ferrari. Most people are happy with a slower but reliable toyota with the power window and cruise control at a fraction of the cost.

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Get a web developer

Thanks nVidia by turgid · 2013-10-05 02:00 · Score: 5, Insightful

I've been running accelerated 3D graphics on Linux thanks to nVidia since 2000. And thanks to Linus' pragmatism

In an ideal world, nVidia would provide their drivers as Open Source for the FOSS crowd, and one day they might if they can get the IP issues sorted out.

I am a supporter of Linux and the FSF and I admire and support the efforts and ideals of both. However, these are ideals not physical reality. I choose FOSS wherever possible. I don't run Windows and abandoned MS when Win95 came out. I've done just fine without them (thanks for Slackware, Pat).

I dare say that there are millions of (not very clever) people in the world who would have dismissed Linux and Free Software in general as "rubbish" had they not been able to see it do fast, hardware-accelerated 3D graphics like the commercial OSs. You know what people are like...

Then we had the support for Linux from ATi, not to be left out, and later intel who have very generously provided much data and open source code.

Without nVidia's contribution and pioneering support of Linux, we'd be in a much darker place today and Linux would be not nearly as popular with the average user.

I've been using nVidia graphics cards on my own PCs (all Linux) since 1999 and I've never been disappointed. I'm on my 5th or 6th card now (lost count). And I've never had trouble integrating their driver with Slackware or anything else...

Just a happy customer here, not an employee or shareholder.

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Stick Men

Re:NVIDIA -- fuck you! by znanue · 2013-10-05 02:05 · Score: 2

He might have listened to RMS but nobody might be listening to him. Maybe we need RMS but we also need an OSS hero that is more practical than RMS, and we have that in LBT.

Re:NVIDIA -- fuck you! by redback · 2013-10-05 02:20 · Score: 3, Insightful

The world needs RMS and people with his viewpoint.

But you cant force everyone to live in their world.

Not Thinking by bobwalt · 2013-10-05 02:31 · Score: 2

Come people think! Why would they do that? I'll bet you anything that it makes development easier not do have a special feature just for the Linux market tested only on Linux. Companies do not spend any more than is necessary especially if the feature in question is not driving sales.

When Wii U, PS4, and XbOne all run AMD by tepples · 2013-10-05 02:37 · Score: 2

Considering it's a console that plugs into a TV, I don't think this matters much at all. Valve's definitely been throwing their weight around demanding better performance and fewer bugs, though.

That or the fact that of the four eighth-generation consoles available now, all three run AMD graphics. PS4 and Xbox One have essentially the same AMD APU, and Wii U is reportedly built on a Radeon HD 5000. Only the OUYA console has NVIDIA graphics, and that's the same Tegra 3 that's in the first-generation Nexus 7. Perhaps this is NV's attempt to redeem itself to gamers who say OUYA doesn't count.

I Moved Your Cheese by tepples · 2013-10-05 02:43 · Score: 3

we don't live in an ideal world

Agreed so far. But understanding how each deviation from the ideal came about can prove useful in improving the lot of each of us.

and one needs to remember that we're not out to change it.

You need to read I Moved Your Cheese by Deepak Malhotra, an unofficial sequel to a widely read business fable. You can take change lying down, or you can become an instrument of change.

There is a Fix for This by stoicio · 2013-10-05 02:51 · Score: 4, Interesting

1.) Go to the Nvidia site and search for 'Linux' and then surf all the linux related
pages on thier site.

2.) Send an email to technical support and ask why you can no longer use all the monitors on your desktop.

3.) Buy an AMD/ATI card , send them an email to let them know why. Let AMD know you are using Linux and why.

4.) Send your old Nvidia card to Nvidia head office for RMA in protest by mail. (Write it off)

Re:MicroSoft needs 3rd party for that? by mysidia · 2013-10-05 03:50 · Score: 4, Informative

I think WHQL certification is mostly MS' way of pressuring component vendors to implement new features they want. For example; UEFI secure boot / OS signing, and preventing OSes such as Linux for booting, or providing TCPA / TCPM (Trusted Computing Platform Modules).

But that's not all. there are plenty of features. Whatever MS requires or forbids will be extremely influential, as computer manufacturers Want to be able to advertise their product using the Windows Logo; and they are required to use only Windows logo certified components in their systems, so a hardware vendor not getting the stamp of approval on their product can be harmful to their business.

MS will use their leverage to do what they think will improve the number of people buying their product --- that includes improving their user experience, or diminishing the user experience of old operating systems, or competing vendors' OS.

For example: making new hardware no longer compatible with XP or Windows 7 would be a win for them, because it encourages more sales of Windows 8.

The WHQL requirements are full of lists of features that must be supported and features that must not be supported by hardware.

In the former category; they list supposed business justifications, and it's all about user experience.

For the latter category; these are limitations of Windows, and the hardware is not allowed to have support for features outside of Windows' limitations.

In the middle category; there are features hardware vendors must ask for permission to implement; that is probably the safest category for MS to use to pressure vendors --- just withhold permission, until they agree to 'off the record' conditions.

Open Graphics (GPL-GPU) by asicsolutions · 2013-10-05 05:31 · Score: 2

Just thought I'd post that our kickstarter goes live on 10/9 for an LGPL graphics core. It is a complete 2D/3D Verilog implementation. The current version is PCI based and runs on Altera/ Xilinx or ASIC. 100% clean and synthesizable Verilog. We have a number of stretch goals that bring new features, generic interfaces so you could run on a PCIe FPGA board or an SOC part. The ultimate stretch goal would be a Unified Shader design.

We have pictures and will have video from the FPGA board on the kickstarter site (live on 10/9),

Our Facebook page (pictures and live now): Silicon Spectrum FB Page

Our Home page (out of date): Silicon Spectrum Home

GPLGPU.com (not live yet): GPL GPU site (not currently live)

It won't beat an Nvidia or AMD part in price/ performance (unless someone wants to do an ASIC based on it), but the source is open and no risk of ever not knowing what is inside in the future.

Re:Good to know... by Anonymous Coward · 2013-10-05 06:55 · Score: 2, Interesting

For non-Quadro cards, there is little pyramid shaped box that connects to a USB port. The communications protocol has been reverse-engineered for Linux compatibiity by many projects (libnvstusb and http://users.csc.calpoly.edu/~zwood/teaching/csc572/final11/rsomers/)

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Nvidia Removed Linux Driver Feature For Feature Parity With Windows

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