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Barbarians At the Gateways

CowboyRobot writes "Former high-frequency trader Jacob Loveless gives an in-depth description of the math and technology involved in HFT. From the article: 'The first step in HFT is to place the systems where the exchanges are. Light passing through fiber takes 49 microseconds to travel 10,000 meters, and that's all the time available in many cases. In New York, there are at least six data centers you need to collocate in to be competitive in equities. In other assets (foreign exchange, for example), you need only one or two in New York, but you also need one in London and probably one in Chicago. The problem of collocation seems straightforward: 1. Contact data center. 2. Negotiate contract. 3. Profit. The details, however, are where the first systems problem arises. The real estate is extremely expensive, and the cost of power is an ever-crushing force on the bottom line. A 17.3-kilowatt cabinet will run $14,000 per month. Assuming a modest HFT draw of 750 watts per server, 17 kilowatts can be taken by 23 servers. It's also important to ensure you get the right collocation. In many markets, the length of the cable within the same building is a competitive advantage. Some facilities such as the Mahwah, New Jersey, NYSE (New York Stock Exchange) data center have rolls of fiber so that every cage has exactly the same length of fiber running to the exchange cages.'"

55 of 321 comments (clear)

  1. I may be in favor of fewer laws that restrict citi by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

    But writing an article on a topic this boring and tricking me into reading it by sneaking in the word "barbarians" should be a crime.

    Very informative, enjoyed it a lot.

  2. Liquidity by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Please, I just pray nobody justifies this obvious non-productive activity by explaining it lends necessary liquidity to the markets. The markets were liquid enough for me back when telegraphs were used to send messages to human traders.

    1. Re:Liquidity by JustOK · · Score: 3, Funny

      The signal was taking too long to cross your lawn. So we foreclosed your house. Bye.

      --
      rewriting history since 2109
    2. Re:Liquidity by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      The markets also used to have 12.5 cent spreads. The insiders still made gobs of money, there was just less competition between them. You had to have a seat at NYSE to be an insider, instead of buy some fast computers. Plus HFT profits are cratering (see Getco's financials) so in part thanks to competition between HFT firms they may have priced themselves out of the market. Even if they are profitable, they are hardly printing money. So if everything is so unfair and they could do half of what people say they can do, why aren't they making money now?

    3. Re:Liquidity by Pino+Grigio · · Score: 2

      It isn't non-productive. It optimises the buy/sell price of various things. In markets where this kind of trading happens, sell prices are maximised and buy prices are minimised.

    4. Re:Liquidity by kajsocc · · Score: 5, Funny

      a HFT system will notice the spread, but from one at 11 and sell it to the other at 10 and capture the difference for themselves.

      I would not recommend buying high and selling low as a long-term strategy.

    5. Re:Liquidity by the_other_chewey · · Score: 3, Funny

      a HFT system will notice the spread, but from one at 11 and sell it to the other at 10 and capture the difference for themselves.

      So I guess they make it up on volume?

    6. Re:Liquidity by Copid · · Score: 4, Insightful

      This is the point I always make. There have always been useless lumps who happen to be close to the action who make money off of the spreads. There are just more of them now, and they're fighting really fast over micropennies. If we're going to complain, I'd like to see evidence that the total profit these guys are making is going up relative to the size of the market. Sure, if they're giving the average trader a huge haircut, that's not a good thing, but market efficiencies being what they are, I suspect that the total amount of skim hasn't changed all that much since the early days.

      The only real problem I can think of is that we've replaced that useless lump who has no real skills with mathetmaticians and engineers who could be doing something more useful elsewhere. It's probably not a great use of those resources, but it's pretty small scale.

      --
      An interesting anagram of "BANACH TARSKI" is "BANACH TARSKI BANACH TARSKI"
    7. Re:Liquidity by DCFusor · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Trader myself. Mod parents up - they are correct. Check the Knight trading debacle: http://www.coultersmithing.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=51&t=328&p=3924&hilit=knight#p3924
      The deployed their test harness instead of their HFT bots for 44 min and lost half a billion in that time - now out of business. I made good money during that time using human judgement. You can often catch an accidental high bid or low ask from an HFT, when they screw up, which is fairly often, as well.

      --
      Why guess when you can know? Measure!
    8. Re:Liquidity by SolitaryMan · · Score: 2

      It really depends on what do you define as being "close to the action". If you define it in terms of "old telegraph days", basically *every* trader is too close to the action. And that is where the problem is. This days it is nothing more than a global casino that provides zero social value.

      --
      May Peace Prevail On Earth
    9. Re: Liquidity by tolkienfan · · Score: 2

      This one. You have to understand who the SEC answers to. Most of congress and all the top companies have a great deal of their money tied up in stocks. If one little company decides to manipulate prices (or volumes or volatility, etc) to cheat money from the marketplace, that hurts all the SEC's overlords to potentially millions or billions. No, the SEC will NOT put up with that. A big investment bank giving bad advice to their customers to get rid of toxic instruments on the other hand... they seem to be finr with that.

    10. Re: Liquidity by AK+Marc · · Score: 2

      So it ok so long as you can do it?

      Is that a question or a statement? If I did it, it would still be wrong because whether I'm in the upper or lower class, class war from the upper to lower is wrong. So which class I'm in doesn't change the wrongness.

      Anyone can trade these strategies. That includes you.

      Yes, and anyone could become a cop and abuse races they don't like, so racism isn't bad. Gotta love the logic of the Church of Money.

  3. What purpose does HFT serve? by Opportunist · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Please enlighten me, dear wizards of the wall street. Please teach me what purpose HFT serves to our economy.

    Somehow, to me this just looks like it is the most blatant proof that the whole stock trade has become a self serving gambling place without any connection to reality and economy anymore. It used to serve the purpose of accumulating money for projects larger than what any single person or even government could finance. Today, it is just a self serving leech on our economy.

    --
    We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    1. Re:What purpose does HFT serve? by Impy+the+Impiuos+Imp · · Score: 5, Informative

      This isn't even gambling. It's pseudo-precognition, taking advantage of price differentials between computers in different cities or buildings, before the other guy's system promulgates the updated price.

      --
      (-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
    2. Re:What purpose does HFT serve? by mythosaz · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I'm obviously a rube with regards to how the magic happens beyond "Strike first, strike fast, strike often!" but it's pretty fucking clear to everyone that Average Joe doesn't benefit one bit from this unless he's bought stock in SuperHFT TradeCo.

      Nobody benefits from this except 1/100th of 1%'ers trying to move into the 1/1000th of 1%'ers at the sake of making sure that you or I can't possibly play, because the playing field is so un-level it's a miracle we don't slide right off it... ...after leaving our wallets.

    3. Re:What purpose does HFT serve? by mcrbids · · Score: 5, Interesting
      --
      I have no problem with your religion until you decide it's reason to deprive others of the truth.
    4. Re:What purpose does HFT serve? by Ubi_NL · · Score: 4, Informative

      The Zeconomist has a debate about it

      http://www.economist.com/debate/days/view/816

      --

      If an experiment works, something has gone wrong.
    5. Re:What purpose does HFT serve? by gmuslera · · Score: 2

      Didn't got the memo? Life, love, having a future, those pesky humans that ask for their rights, health, etc have the lowest priority. What really matters is money, making it as fast as possible, is like checkmating the other king in chess, no matter how much pawns or higher pieces you must sacrify for that. HFT, as a refinement for reaching that ultimate goal, is great for that. Even if things screws up badly and big banks behind it gets hit, they will be bailed out, is a no risk bet. And while money keeps being the ultimate good, that kind of tools will still be around.

    6. Re:What purpose does HFT serve? by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 5, Informative

      Please teach me what purpose HFT serves to our economy.

      This question has been beaten to death every time a HFT related article is posted. But people still ask, so I will try to answer. High Frequency Traders (HFTs) are not investors, they are market makers. They find a willing buyer and a willing seller, arrange the transaction, and execute the trade. They make a profit on the spread between the buy price and the sell price. The problem is that once they locate the buyer and seller, they need to buy the stock from the seller first, then turn around and sell it to the buyer, but the buyer may have cancelled they transaction, or they may have already bought the stock from someone else, in which case the HFT is stuck with the stock and may have to sell it to someone else at a loss. If transactions are granulated to one second intervals, instead of say, millisecond intervals, then the risk of this happening is a thousand times higher , and the HFTs will insist on higher spreads, resulting in lower liquidity and higher transaction costs for both buyer and seller.

      Since the introduction of high frequency trading, transaction costs have fallen considerably, saving plenty of people a lot of money. The only losers are the old market makers that used to have lucrative sweetheart deals with the exchanges. Many of those old market makers are now bankrupt. Good riddance.

    7. Re:What purpose does HFT serve? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

      It's a technical form of arbitrage, which is not illegal and may improve market liquidity. I think the downside is that trades are made on the basis of inferred choices and this distorts the real market influence of "People who invest" versus "Machines that exploit market mechanics." The former requires contextual analysis and the ability to evaluate products, management teams, etc. The latter is a numbers game of pre-destined metric comparison, equivalent to banal tasks such as gold farming in an MMORPG.

    8. Re:What purpose does HFT serve? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Of course it is not gambling -- it is a form of legalized front-running. This entire ecosystem of parasites could be trivially destroyed if regulators change the way market matches bids and asks -- for example by stipulating that trading needs to be done in round of 1 minute each -- first 50 seconds it accepts bids and asks, and last 10 -- matching them in fair manner (and splitting margins between participants). That is it -- in a blink of an eye all these smart men will be off doing smth actually productive.

    9. Re:What purpose does HFT serve? by kajsocc · · Score: 4, Informative

      Please teach me what purpose HFT serves to our economy.

      The best analogy I've heard is to transportation / shipping. Back when such transport was new, people scoffed at the idea of making money for moving things around. "You aren't producing anything, making anything, it's a complete waste." But today, we can see how moving goods around is actually of extreme importance.

      Trading moves another kind of economic good--capital. That is, trading is to capital as transportation is to physical goods.

      High-frequency trading is just trading... but faster. You'll notice how the summary mentioned New York and London. This is because the HFTs are arbitraging between those two major exchanges. If they were slower, you'd have more people getting "incorrect" prices, in the sense that there was a better price in NY but the information hadn't been priced into the London exchange yet. Hence, London traders would be getting screwed out of better deals that they technically could have known about.

      However, HFT has also become associated with a bunch of "dirty tricks", like flash trading, etc. These kinds of things actually CAN hurt investors and other traders. This gives HFT as a whole a bad name, as it is viewed negatively by those who feel they are taken advantage of by these tricks.

      In general, though, HFT has lowered market spreads, meaning it costs less to trade. Those lower costs show up in investors' bottom lines, which obviously include retirement accounts, so a lot of people are helped by HFT. However, I think a lot of people believe that without HFT, money would simply not be "leeched out", because they view traders as middlemen who are price gouging. The problem with this view is that all trading requires either paying middlemen, paying the spread, or taking on risk like traders do. So, take out the middlemen and you'll just pay higher spreads or incur larger risks, both of which are real costs, economically-speaking.

      Another thing is that if you check the trading volumes, you'll see that HFT makes up a substantial (50+%) of trading volume. People I've talked to often think this equates to 50% of the "profit" leeched by HFT. This is not so at all... the reason they have such high volumes is they'll buy and sell multiple things simultaneously, then trade back to a fully-hedged position moments later or at least by the end of the trading day. As an HFTer you might buy 100,000 contracts and sell them a bit later and net just $5-10 for the whole thing. Of course, there might be thousands of such opportunities in a given trading day, if you're a large firm with a competitive HFT program. As such, this type of trading incurs a very high volume-to-profit ratio. On top of that, a substantial portion of their would-be profits are eaten up by trading fees. And then, as the summary mentions, you've got substantial electricity costs, top-end hardware costs, collocation costs (which can be obscenely expensive for the prime real estate locations), etc., so it's not at all like HFT is making money hand over fist.

      HFT was a big thing a few years ago because it was a new thing, there wasn't much competition, and the profits were fierce. Now it's just the competition that is fierce.

    10. Re:What purpose does HFT serve? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

      Please teach me what purpose HFT serves to our economy.

      ... they are market makers. They find a willing buyer and a willing seller, arrange the transaction, and execute the trade.

      Umm, bullshit. The exchange is supposed to match up buyers and sellers. That's what exchanges are FOR. If there is a buyer but no seller, then the market maker steps in and sells at a higher price. If there is no buyer, the market maker buys at a lower price. This is how price movements happen. HFT is a middleman. If there is no buyer or seller, then HFT wouldn't go in on the trade at all. If there is a buyer and a seller, HFT does not need to exist, since the exchange is supposed to match up the two parties already.

    11. Re:What purpose does HFT serve? by Sarten-X · · Score: 2

      An excellent explanation. The only thing I'll add is that also, these traders aren't even working in a single exchange. A buyer might make an offer in New York, and end up getting the security from a seller in Chicago. Instead of having a millisecond granularity, they're bound by the speed of light to having a bigger window (and bigger risk). That's why they're so interested in low-latency connections.

      --
      You do not have a moral or legal right to do absolutely anything you want.
    12. Re:What purpose does HFT serve? by Prune · · Score: 3, Insightful

      >The little people live their lives by a small handful of metaphors.

      Your post is otherwise insightful, but the derision expressed by that statement counteracts the value you've brought to the discussion. As for your comment on bankers: holding your money is indeed half of the job of retail bankers (the other half being to lend to loan-worthy borrowers, which includes the oft-neglected part of actually determining who is loan-worthy). I'm pretty sure laymen have no issue distinguishing between retail and investment banking.

      --
      "Politicians and diapers must be changed often, and for the same reason."
    13. Re:What purpose does HFT serve? by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 2, Informative

      And in exchange for this liquidity, we get flash crashes

      The flash crash was not caused by HFT. In fact, the SEC investigation determined that most active HFTers were trading against the decline, thus making the crash less severe. One of the SEC recommendations was to find a way to keep more HFTers active during big swings because they help to keep the markets stable.

    14. Re:What purpose does HFT serve? by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 2, Informative

      Umm, bullshit. The exchange is supposed to match up buyers and sellers. That's what exchanges are FOR.

      The exchanges are made up of their members. The members are brokerages that execute trades on behalf of their clients. You, as an individual, cannot log into the NYSE computer and execute your trade anymore than you could have walked into the pit during the old paper-based days. So why can't you trade with a "member" instead of a HFTer? Because the members are the HFTers. For all practical purposes, the HFTers are the exchange.

    15. Re:What purpose does HFT serve? by Opportunist · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Just because something is legal doesn't mean it's right. 400 years ago it was legal to burn women as witches. And just 50 years ago it was legal to kick a black guy out of a bus for sitting on the wrong seat.

      And since laws are made by those that have the money, take a wild guess who laws benefit.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    16. Re:What purpose does HFT serve? by smaddox · · Score: 3, Informative

      Interesting debate, I'll have to finish reading it at some point.

      After reading the opening statements, it seems to me that the pro-HFT guy, Jim Overdahl, is confusing the use of computer automation to reduce transaction costs (which benefits the whole market) with HFT firms that act only as middle men (which benefits only the HFT firms). I didn't realize people could get caught up on such a simple point, but perhaps this is the only way someone could think that HFT is actually a Good Thing.

      Of course computer automation lowers transaction costs, and of course that's a good thing. Adding a minimum hold time, or taxing very short term holds wouldn't eliminate that benefit, though. It would only eliminate the middle men.

    17. Re:What purpose does HFT serve? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      You make no sense. Sure, I have to go through a brokerage to make a trade on the NYSE. Where would that trade go if there were no HFTers? I bet it would go to another brokerage that was buying/selling, or to a market maker, which would move the price. What makes the HFTs necessary, other than their overwhelming presence in the trading volume by virtue of being there?

    18. Re:What purpose does HFT serve? by Opportunist · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Erh... that was the original idea of stock companies. You can't afford to build $huge_project, I can't and there's nobody who can. Hell, even we together cannot. But if we can find a few hundred or a few thousand people who're willing to invest a few bucks, we can pull it off. And everyone owns (and controls) as much of the company as his shares say.

      If this ingenious pinnacle of capitalist ideal, a joint ownership of an enterprise dependent on your invested capital, is now considered communism, the system sure as hell needs a lot of repairs!

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    19. Re:What purpose does HFT serve? by alexander_686 · · Score: 2

      I did not get that from the article. The gold standard for measuring transaction cost is “Implementation shortfall” which factors in explicit costs and implicit costs.

      Explicit costs are commissions costs (which don’t factor in much) and the bid/ask spread. The spread has fallen from $.125 cents to under $.01. For people investing in mutual funds / ETFs the NAV / Price spread has collapsed. ec. My best guess is algorithmic trading have cut these costs by 50% to 80%

      Implicate costs factors in the uncertainty that when you decided to sell X shares at Y dollars you will sell X shares at Y dollars. For most people this has higher costs then the explicit costs. Once again the costs here have collapsed. My best guess is that costs have droped by 80% to 90%.

      There are now more people on the other side of the trade then in the old world where there were 1 to 4 market makers.

    20. Re:What purpose does HFT serve? by RabidReindeer · · Score: 2

      Erh... that was the original idea of stock companies. You can't afford to build $huge_project, I can't and there's nobody who can. Hell, even we together cannot. But if we can find a few hundred or a few thousand people who're willing to invest a few bucks, we can pull it off.

      It doesn't have to be that huge. I invested in a corporation that only had 7 shareholders and we didn't need that much money to start it. Just more than any one of us could comfortably part with.

      Also, some very large privately-held corporations have less than a dozen shareholders, not being publicly traded.

    21. Re:What purpose does HFT serve? by alexander_686 · · Score: 2

      I don’t think your statement applies. There are market makers in a centralized order book market.

      As it stands today, quote driven markets have a higher certainty of completion of a trade then an order book market. That uncertainty is a risk for the market makers in a order book system, which drives up their costs, which drives up the spread and lowers liquidity.

      There will always be a temporary imbalance between long term buyers and long term sellers which a middle man / market maker can exploit. Think about this way, you have a buyer and a seller of the same stock whose time frame is measured in years, not milliseconds. What is the chance that they will show up in the same month? Low. So there is somebody who has a time frame of months who is a market maker. But the people who trade in months need somebody who trades in days, days need hours, etc.

    22. Re:What purpose does HFT serve? by alexander_686 · · Score: 3, Informative

      It has been tried. Look up Order Book exchanges. The Paris Bourse was one. The NYSE was a hybrid. They both converted.

      Empirically it produced (mostly) inferior results so everybody ditched it for a quote driven system.

      The problem with a order book exchange is the decreased certainty of trade executions which increased the risk to market makers which causes higher spreads and lower liquidity.

      Now Order Book markets still do survive where liquidity is low or cost is a driving factor. in Dark Pools like ICE. It survives because these trades are more concerned about anonymity and cost then certainty of execution.

    23. Re:What purpose does HFT serve? by fnj · · Score: 3, Insightful

      What really matters is money, making it as fast as possible

      I love that phrase, "making" money. When you think about it, this kind of activity doesn't "make" money at all. It does not create wealth. It shifts wealth that exists, to feed the bottomless avarice of the parasites who think they are entitled to something for nothing. The only thing that can CREATE wealth - i.e., feed people and house them - is actual useful work that produces products like food and housing.

    24. Re:What purpose does HFT serve? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      "Arbitrage" is a real and beneficial thing when you have a pack animal and are shelping goods to the nearest village on the other side of a mountain. It is good because it allows goods to be distributed where there is demand more efficiently and over time it helps to make sure the people who produce goods get to sell closer to what customers are willing to pay. This happens because the demand of the traders over time will increase the price at point of production as they compete over sales at the point of consumption. In the classic sense the people who benefited from arbitrage provided an actual service by actually moving goods, or money, to places where there is a distortion in the marketplace and help provide long term stability to the market.

      "Arbitrage" in this application is simply picking pockets. They provide no benefit to the buyers or sellers at all and only ADD instability to the market.
      The only difference between a normal pick pocket and a HFT shop is that instead of taking your whole purse, they take just one copper out of it. However they do it every single dam time you open it.
      They are thieving leeches and they should be outlawed.

      They are not needed for liquidity anyway, liquidity is somewhat overrated as too much can distort the market , and it is already provided by market makers in practice, and by index funds and institutional investors in the current real-world.

    25. Re:What purpose does HFT serve? by quarterbuck · · Score: 2

      If there is no buyer, the market maker buys at a lower price.
      HFT is a middleman.

      I think your two statements answer the whole thing. Marketmaker was the middleman. Nowadays HFTs are the middleman. HFTs act as marketmakers. There is no difference.
      In earlier days there were fixed brokerage commissions. The market makers (humans) could make a living trading just a few stocks. After fixed fees were removed, the fees continuously dwindled. In early 2001, the SEC accused market makers of collusion and introduced tick sizes smaller than 1/8th of a point. This reduced market maker profits even more. The only way to make any money being middleman was to trade in a lot more stocks. So HFT was left as the last man standing
      If you want to buy a single stock of Google, prior to 1975, you would pay about $60 in commissions (http://www.ehow.com/about_6628927_standard-commission-brokerage-accounts_.html).If Google was trading at $1000, you could only buy it at $1060 and sell it at $940 or so (if you traded a single stock). From then on the fees kept dwindling. But you would always pay 1/8th of a point to the market maker. (http://www.sec.gov/litigation/investreport/nd21a-appx.txt). Finally as even that got removed, you end up in the situation where you can trade Google at $1000.01 + ~3 dollars in brokerage.
      On a per trade basis, HFTs make far less money than Market makers ever did.
      What has changed is this. In 1970s, only the rich or the professionals (mutual funds) traded stocks. As fees reduced, more people started trading. This meant that as an overall pool, the fees did not fall as steeply as the brokerage commissions would indicate. Humans could not capture all of it standing in the middle of the pit, they needed computers to do it.
      This is same as what happened in airlines. As fixed costs were removed, low cost airlines were introduced. As this happened, price comparison sites popped up, decreasing costs even more. As costs fell, more people started flying. So even if Airlines make less per seat, they probably make more in total dollar terms.

      --
      http://slashdot.org/submission/1062723/Cheap-mobile-data-plan?art_pos=2
    26. Re:What purpose does HFT serve? by khallow · · Score: 2

      Humans must, by definition, use human psychology to make these decisions.

      This is incorrect since you haven't explained why human mental processes will come to difference decisions than non-human mental processes.

      Let's give an even more constrained example, the game of tic tac toe. After a bit of thought, most humans will come up with a strategy that is perfect, that is by which they can never lose and will win, should the opponent give them the opportunity. The problem is so constrained that human psychology doesn't have a chance to manifest except possibly as a preference for certain squares in symmetrically equivalent moves. Humans, computer programs, and anything else advanced enough to learn to play the game optimally will behave very similarly.

      That's the problem with claiming that the study of program trading is the study of human psychology. This is a severely constrained problem which doesn't give much opportunity for the human part to come out.

  4. Easy solution for all their technical problems. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Make all offers valid for at minimum one second and poof 99% of high frequency "trading" vanishes.

    1. Re:Easy solution for all their technical problems. by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Make all offers valid for at minimum one second and poof 99% of high frequency "trading" vanishes.

      ... and transactions costs go up for everyone. Do you understand that the buy-sell spread has fallen dramatically since HFT became feasible?

    2. Re:Easy solution for all their technical problems. by rickb928 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      "the buy-sell spread has fallen dramatically "

      Is this good, and for whom?

      --
      deleting the extra space after periods so i can stay relevant, yeah.
    3. Re:Easy solution for all their technical problems. by bob_super · · Score: 2

      I'm ok with paying a little for the service of buying a stock.
      That's how it was for a really long time, and was good enough to finance industrial revolutions and colonizing most the world.

      What can't you do if you don't have quarter-cent microsecond trades?

    4. Re:Easy solution for all their technical problems. by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 2, Informative

      I'm ok with paying a little for the service of buying a stock.

      You can! There are plenty of brokers out there that would be happy to charge you extra. Or you could just flush your surplus money down the toilet for the same end effect.

      What can't you do if you don't have quarter-cent microsecond trades?

      Let's turn the question around: What do you hope to gain by passing yet more laws that prohibit consenting adults from engaging in transactions that you think should be banned because you don't understand them?

    5. Re:Easy solution for all their technical problems. by edman007 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      How much? As someone who invests for the long term, I really don't see large spreads affecting me. Right now, looking at google, I see a spread of 16 cents on a $1000/share stock. If I invest in that stock, I'd probably consider anything under 1% in gains a wash, so the spread would have to be over $10 to even factor into my decision making. I don't care if the spreads go up 10x, to $1.50 on that stock, it won't affect me, yes I'll lose that extra dollar or so, but I'm trading on double digit gains/losses, if I buy at $700 and sell at $1000 I don't care about that $1.50, it doesn't materially hurt me. All that HFT does it make the stocks react faster to the news, and the cost is that the HFT people get to suck money out of the market for nothing (though make it liquid I suppose), But is that something we really need? I don't need it that liquid for my investments, and the businesses don't either.

      If it was up to me I'd change the stock exchanges to process one trade per account per stock per day, all at 4pm (meaning you got the whole day to enter your trades, speed won't have an effect at all).

    6. Re:Easy solution for all their technical problems. by bob_super · · Score: 2

      "because you don't understand them"
      Typical internet comment fallacy: I probably know it better than most around here, by virtue of having researched it extensively when I almost accepted a job at an HFT firm.

      "passing yet more laws that prohibit consenting adults from engaging in transactions"
      Did I state I want to pass any laws? Quarter-cent referred to the spread, since the topic was about reducing the spread for everyone.
      Don't read what you want to read, read what I wrote.

      The point, sir, is that in the initial setup of the stock exchange as a place to bet on future growth of various investments, the fees and spread were just the cost of doing business. You thought company X was going to double in value, you bought their stock and waited, or bought most of their stock, told them what to do, and waited. The initial cost of getting, and the cost of selling that stock, was annoying but the point was to get a decent ROI.
      HFT is another great example of the here-and-now that poisons the economy and the workers (quarterly results, anyone?), by trying to grab profit in a transaction that would happen without you. The fact that massive investments happen shows that there is money to extract from someone on this transaction (HFT hardware builders, operators, banks), but in the end that money has to come from somewhere, and whoever is receiving it will do her best to make sure it keeps coming and growing. So HFT will mechanically translate into higher costs for someone, because someone else's shareholders need to be paid.
      If you're inside the system and profit from it, great for you. If you're outside and your bank profits from it, maybe good for you. But if you need the services of whoever is on the losing side (which is pretty much anybody not playing), then it will be more expensive, because they have to compensate for that loss.

    7. Re:Easy solution for all their technical problems. by radarskiy · · Score: 2

      "What do you hope to gain by passing yet more laws that prohibit consenting adults from engaging in transactions that you think should be banned"

      Accounting of external costs, which is recognized as a proper role of regulation in a free market, since the effects of the transaction are provably not limited to just those who are "consenting" to it.

      Why do you hate Adam Smith?

    8. Re:Easy solution for all their technical problems. by ObsessiveMathsFreak · · Score: 2

      ... and transactions costs go up for everyone.

      You keep repeating this, but the statement is directly at odds with the reality of a growing and profitable HFT industry. If transaction costs are going down, then how are HFT companies making so much money?

      The actual reality is:
      a) Millisecond HFTs have no effect on transaction costs vs 1 sec transaction speeds, and
      b) HFTs make money by reducing value for the slower buyers and sellers at the stock exchange. Buyers pay more, and sellers get less for the same stock than they would if HFT trading did not exist.

      You can jaw on about liquidity and transaction costs all you want. But the money that HFT is making has to come from somewhere. These companies do not add value, or provide services. As such the profits they make come from companies which do.

      --
      May the Maths Be with you!
  5. fascinating tech by trybywrench · · Score: 2

    I find the technology behind HFT pretty fascinating, the level of optimization is impressive and right out there on the bleeding edge. IIRC there are switches being developed with trading algorithms right in the silicon. I just wished they had something to show for all that work. I'm perfectly ok with the levels of profit and gain but show me a widget or something of value that was produced from the labor. The usual answer you get from this question is liquidity and allocation of capital but if the inventors would be honest with themselves they would realize that's not the case. Trades happening at minute resolution by a human would provide the same level of capital allocation and liquidity as trades happening at the microsecond resolution by machines.

    --
    I came to the datacenter drunk with a fake ID, don't you want to be just like me?
  6. Gross receipts tax by Overzeetop · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Forget "income" - change toa gross receipts tax. It only requires a couple percent (well, maybe up to 4) to have a sustainable tax base. You pay your real estate agent 6% to sell your house, you pay most brokers 2-4%, you should probably kick in a couple percent for the government defending that investment with nuclear weapons.

    No deductions, no exclusions. Whatever you receive, you pay 3% to the feds. My town happens to have a GRT for business and it's quite difficult to dodge. It makes HFT and short term, high volume trades a losing proposition. It effectively punishes any entity - person or corporation - which does not add value to a transaction. And that, imho, would be a good thing.

    --
    Is it just my observation, or are there way too many stupid people in the world?
    1. Re:Gross receipts tax by Nadaka · · Score: 2

      I'm not sure the math on that will work out.

      From the perspective of personal income, we need an average taxation rate of around 27% to balance the federal budget.

      And what happens when you transfer money from one account to another? You "receive" the money, so does that mean you get taxed?

    2. Re:Gross receipts tax by khallow · · Score: 2

      There are two things to note here. First, this also punishes anyone who does add value to a transaction. 3% is a large tax for stock market transactions.

      Second, it's not government's job to care if there are valueless transactions out there or not. As another poster noted, why aren't they banning American Idol?

  7. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  8. seems unreasonable by Chirs · · Score: 2

    If a general contractor takes in 100K to build a house, but the vast majority of that is actually in materials cost, why should the town get a percentage of the cost of the supplies? And how do you prevent double-dipping, where they get a cut of the cost of the supplies from the general contractor, and the building company, and the lumber yard, and the wholesaler...

  9. Re: "What useful purpose" by Hatta · · Score: 2

    Just because *you* don't see a useful purpose does not exist.

    Then demonstrate that a useful purpose exists with actual data. Yeah yeah, "market liquidity". Why do markets need to be liquid on the microsecond scale? Prove that there is a benefit to this.

    And, just because a useful purpose may not exist, does not mean it should be outlawed.

    It should be outlawed because it steals money from people who are investing in companies that do serve a useful purpose. Any money that ends up in the hands of arbitrageurs is money that would otherwise have ended up in the pockets of actual investors. Since no useful service is being performed, that might as well be fraud.

    How about we outlaw your watching American Idol and facebooking as well, since it does not serve a useful purpose?

    Because I'm not taking anything from anyone when I do that.

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    Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!