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German Report: Obama Aware of Merkel Spying Since 2010
First time accepted submitter pupsocket writes "Yesterday the German newspaper of record, Frankfurter Allgemeine, reported that the President told German Chancellor Merkel that he would have stopped the tap on her phone had he known about it. Today, another German paper, Bild am Sonntag, quoted U.S. Intelligence sources that the President had been briefed in 2010. 'Obama did not halt the operation but rather let it continue,' the newspaper quoted a high-ranking NSA official as saying."
So Slashdot reports that Yahoo News printed an article from AFP that the newspaper Bild am Sonntag heard from a "high-ranking NSA official" that something happened! It's like Obama told me himself....
And that, my friends, is why large conspiracies fail: a slight change in the initial conditions (such as a threat to NSA's funding, or top officials denouncing covert programs to save face) will make fellow conspirators angry or scared and the whole thing blows open. If the energy put into "we never went to the moon" crap would be put to good use, we could have some real, positive change.
Quietly spying on the womans cell since 2010, no one else knew but a few NSA lackeys. Even they couldn't see him locked in a dark office, alone, with no sound but the repetitive monkey slapping between his legs and the faint conversation of Merkel in his earpiece. " MMMmmm, I got your cigar Biatch! Daddy's gonna Farfergnugen your strudel, Heidi".....
It's a Democrat thing, ask Bill or John or Lyndon.
*Repent!Quit Your Job!Slack Off!The World Ends Tomorrow and You May Die!
Why would anyone believe anything that Obama or NSA lackeys say at this point? It's too late for that. Obama's successor is going to have a huge credibility gap to bridge...
IRS targeting conservatives? Nobody at the White House knew.
Healthcare enrollment website has massive problems? The President didn't know.
NSA tapping German Prime Minister's phone? The President didn't know.
At some point, the American people have to start wondering if the President knows anything.
How do you know the US is the good guy. Unmanned drones killing women and children in the middle east, psychotic banks out of control, eugenics. You sound so emboldened and brash about ur choices considering ur country is becoming completely satanic..
And bear in mind that China and Russia already have an alliance to protect themselves from u. If the EU (inclusing France and UK) joined that - both have nukes - your potential list of allies will have dwindled and you could be alienated internationally.
However, I think u just don't get it. It's not about u or me. It's all a big charade by rich people globally, to hide pillaging from their own countries. And American people seem to be the biggest suckers of them all in this regard.
What do you bet the source was riding behind Hayden on a train?
"How's that "hopey changey" stuff workin' out for ya?"
It's very common for "sources and methods" for a piece of information to be more highly classified than the content of the information.
Well I can think of at least one leader of a country that the NSA would be spying on without the president of the United States knowing...
Are people really so foolish to think that the man isn't aware of the multitude of abuses under his administration?
No wonder this nation is so fucked.
Well, yes. Obviously if they spy on Obama, they're not going to tell Obama. :)
I can buy that, but spying on a world leader - and an ally - sounds like something that could get you into a sh*tstorm of trouble. It's hard for me to believe they wouldn't have to run that kind of thing up the food chain. We're not talking about spying on some Afghani village leader here.
...but I repeat myself.
Like a spoiled kid caught with his hand in the cookie jar, Obama needs a good spanking. Amongst genuine "small government" and "limited government" types, this just leads to feelings of frustration and despair. The Tea Party movement seemed promising, until it was hijacked by the religious right. What other chance is there, really, to reign in the US government? It's no wonder that talks about secession and revolution are kicking up again.
Enjoy life! This is not a dress rehearsal.
A textbook example of the Limbaugh Doctrine. For those of you in Rio Linda, CA: the Limbaugh Doctrine states the president had absolutely no idea that something bad was going on, he's just as shocked as everyone else, at the turn of events, but he's going to put a stop to it.
The president had absolutely no clue how big of the train wreck the healthcare.gov web site was going to be, until the day of the launch. As far he knew, everything was going just fine, and he was just as shocked as everyone else, how big of a botch it turned out to be.
The president had no idea that the IRS was harassing his political opponents. He read about it in the papers, when the story broke.
The president did not know that our troops on the ground in Libya called for help several times, when the barbarians attacked the Benghazian embassy, but someone in the military chain of command told them to stand down, and that no help was forthcoming. The president found that out only after the fact.
The president did not know that the Dept. Of Justice was sending illegal firearms to Mexican drug gangs. He was shocked, just shocked, to find out about it, in the papers.
Etc... etc... The president never has any idea what's going on in his administration. Who's running the government anyway?
And what is wrong with selling to Iran? Just because Bush wants to throw his toys out of his pram does not mean that Iran really is any worse than his friend Saudi or look at Pakistan who got their tech from the US. Stop swallowing the stupid propaganda. NK are bat shit crazy but not really any different from most of the other bat shit crazy countries that US used to support in South America. You want to keep waving the flag and following the dumb bullshit like a commie, that is your choice but do not think that it makes sense. Remember, the US used to support terrorists while they fund raised in NY (NORAID etc.) until you got bombed and now you want to tell the world how you can lead the way... Wonder why no one listens...
I can hardly believe that the President of the USofA will know all. Could be that it is in his line of command to know. But I would not be surprised if it was just a general 'we can spy on whomever we want' kind of thing.
And spying on some Afghan village leader is just as bad in my book. Just because he is an Afghan does not mean he is a terrorist or has anything to do with terrorism.
Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
I've been reading Der Spiegel for 25 years. I've never seen them get angry about anything, not even when Russia shut off the natural gas pipeline running to Central Europe to mess with the Ukraine and whacked Germany in the process. They're white hot mad about this. The German Interior Minister is talking about bringing the NSA to justice. The SPD is pushing to drop trade talks with the US unless Washington does something real about it. Meanwhile, Obama wants to talk about immigration and fly off to visit schools in Crown Heights rather than deal with this directly. Caught in lie after lie after lie about the NSA he owns this now, and he owns the consequences for the entire world if he doesn't deal with it.
Consider, fellow Americans, what goes if Germany goes. That's NATO and the EU. That's all our happy European client states cheerily playing along when Washington wants to force the President of Bolivia's plane down and search it. That's an economy bigger than ours, a continent whose population is much bigger than ours, suddenly not playing ball with us any more and pushing back hard on everything. That's a profoundly different world for American geopolitical power that will have material consequences for every American.
This, the government shutdown, the near default, the promise of more of the same in February, it all has everyone who has been on our team the last 50 years looking for the exits at once. The American government has proven it can't even get a website right; there's no way in hell they can deal with all of this at once. A fat, happy American middle class would have been a bulwark against it, but the elites have spent 20 years scraping out their substance. Most of us are running mighty thin. The risk of a trigger event, like the assassination of Archduke Ferdinand or the Rodney King verdict, bringing it all down is growing.
Do what you can, with what you have, where you are.
I can hardly believe that the President of the USofA will know all. Could be that it is in his line of command to know. But I would not be surprised if it was just a general 'we can spy on whomever we want' kind of thing.
I would hope that spying on another country's leader isn't something the U.S. would do as a matter of course - especially if that leader was an ally. How could something like that be done and the president not be told? It's an incredibly risky venture (as we can see now).
And spying on some Afghan village leader is just as bad in my book. Just because he is an Afghan does not mean he is a terrorist or has anything to do with terrorism.
Spying on an Afghan leader might be just as bad morally, but it has nothing like the same international diplomacy consequences.
Who the hell would want to spy on Obama? He isn't exactly hot grits...
I can't really imagine the NSA spying on him, but I could certainly imagine political enemies wanting to do it. :)
Given the subject, maybe we can get an actual gibbon to write it this time.
Really, the story is that Obama was unaware of spying for 8 years! How on earth is that possible? 2007 - 2008, he was Chairman of United States Senate Foreign Relations Subcommittee on European Affairs, and after that as a president.
I know there is oversight, but geez it must be really loose. You'd think that those two posts would let one know about things.
Whats interesting: :)
Germany selected a German firm to keep the voice part secure (after 2007 till 2009?).
Later the text part was secured by the same German firm (2010?)
Finally the e-mail and sensitive data aspect was also closed up in 2012?
Beyond that was the public key method for key agreement via dedicated landline phone for the real chats classified as top secret.
So the NSA got in very easy to text and data until a more complete German solution was ready for the lower level restricted phone.
Why did Germany take a 3 part upgrade cycle for the one/only phone they really had to get sort of secure?
The selection of a German firm founded in 2007 is telling too. They did not go with a gov solution or a big German brand..for the one/only phone they really had to get secure first time and do it in one step?.
The interface? Power usage? Or the Germans recall Enigma and will never full trust US/UK tech again and played a game?
This is also very telling of the NSA skill set and what is reflected back to the US gov - WOW the top secret super German phone was 'hacked'.
vs Germany took its time in trying to get any working encryption over 2 phone over a few years for text, data and emails.
i.e. with the correct number and the US having a total understanding of the EU phone network it was more "celebrity' vs 'press' hacking?
But wait http://www.bild.de/politik/inland/spionage/obama-billigt-lauschangriff-auf-merkel-33140378.bild.html talks of the NSA having real skills.
The US broke the encrypted phone too
http://www.bild.de/politik/inland/spionage/obama-billigt-lauschangriff-auf-merkel-33140378.bild.html
"Die Amerikaner knackten den Informationen zufolge auch das neue, angeblich abhörsichere Handy"
So Germany has top tech staff handing out 'generations' of encryption and even when encryption is offered its junk.
How good is Germany feeling about its cute looking, approved secure landline telephone (unit does telephone, fax, data and video communication)? Same staff look after that too? US/UK trained staff?
So did the German high command sell out to the US seeing its own political leaders as untrustworthy?
Did the German high command not understand what the USA will always do with any encryption it can find?
Did the German high command sell out to the US, tell the German political leaders and feed the US digital junk that the NSA/CIA reported back as 100% pure fact?
Would Germany be that silly? Would the CIA be that trusting with such a win?
Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
Everytime you order your "pepperoni pizza", we've detected a financial trail from one of their other customers who also likes "pepperoni pizzas" around the same time. These financial transaction involve non-domestic countries. Therefore, you are a conspirator. The meta-data don't lie.
rewriting history since 2109
She's been spied on since before she became the German leader, the 2010 thing comes out from possible Keith Alexander backers:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-24692908#sa-ns_mchannel=rss&ns_source=PublicRSS20-sa
"But on Sunday Bild newspaper quoted US intelligence sources as saying NSA head Keith Alexander personally briefed the president about the covert operation targeting Mrs Merkel in 2010."
Which sounds like Keith Alexander having a go at Obama if anything (or supporters of Alexander).
But what struck me is the sheer naivety of the woman:
"Mrs Merkel - an Americophile who was awarded the US Presidential Medal of Freedom in 2011 - is said to be shocked that Washington may have engaged in the sort of spying she had to endure growing up in Communist East Germany."
That's why they let her become Chancellor! if she was against America, you can be damn sure they'd be using all that info they have on her to her disadvantage to make sure she didn't come into power. It's not *her* who is the victim here, its the German they spied on to weed him out of the race for Chancellor. And the democracy they undermined in the process.
She should know this from the KGB control of East Germany that ensured only party approved leaders could ever be elected.
They're shaping their 'allies' to make them into 'servants'. I think a few of them know it. 5 eyes countries leaders seems to know they have to tow the US line or be leaked against, and maybe a few others. Some others, might suspect it, but don't want to seem paranoid.
Merkel needs to realize that her surfing history is known too, so is her emails, the public info she read that's known, the open discussions, known. Coutresy of Bullrun, probably even the encrypted one. It's not done for laughs, it's done for control.
Germany will just treat the USA like it did East Germany - route around it.
Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
Still, it's quite important, politically; nobody believes anything he says anymore, and certainly not denial of spying or knowledge. However, in the political world, from sovereign leader to sovereign leader, you can't just *say* the other one is lying. At least not if you're allies, even if one of them isn't taking the whole ally thing too seriously.
Well said. There's a serious credibility gap that seems to grow every day.
Do not quote that rag when there are more reputable sources available. They are not as silly as the Daily Fail but their credibility and journalistic quality is very low by German standards.
20 minutes into the future
West Germany kept East Germany alive with money. A lot of money. When the underhanded deals struck between the staunchest anti-communists of the west and the eastern camarilla came to light 15 years ago everybody was genuinely shocked.
20 minutes into the future
Seimens (a German company)
Your intellectua bazelles me.
An empire that has nowhere to expand can only contract and fall, at least in the long run.
I think the US empire probably peaked in the late 1990's at the end of a 10-15 year long time when it could expand easily and relatively peacefully without any interference from the rest of the world which was largely taken by surprise by the fall of the Soviet Union. Now Russia, although still relatively poor, is arming itself like there's no tomorrow (Russia recently carried out its second or third largest military exercise ever, including the ones during the Soviet era!) and China has been growing its economy and influence at double digit percentages for years. It is only natural that US leaders and planners are becoming increasingly paranoid about signs that allies of the empire are planning to go their own way or defect to the other side or sides.
Right now the US is still by far the best choice for countries to align themselves with, so this is likely to go on for a long time.
In the beginning was the Plan and the Specification.
And the Plan was without form and the specification it was void.
And darkness was on the face of the implementation team.
And they spake unto their Leader, saying,
"It is a crock of shit and it stinks"
And it was the Leader and it was the Project Head.
Now the Leader spake unto the Project Head, saying,
"It is a crock of feces and intolerably malodorous."
And it was the Project Head and it was the Department Manager.
Now the Project Head spake unto the Department Manager, saying,
"It is a container of excrement and its effluvium is very strong."
And it was the Department Manager and it was the Product Manager.
Now the Department Manager spake unto the Product Manager, saying,
"It is a vessel of fertilizer of overpowering strength."
And it was the Product Manager and it was the Centre Manager.
Now the Product Manager spake unto the Centre Manager, saying,
"It containeth that which aideth the growth of plants and strong it is."
And it was the Centre Manager and it was the Director.
Now the Centre Manager spake unto the Director, saying,
"It promoteth growth and it is very powerful."
And it was the Director and it was the President.
Now the Director spake unto the Vice-President, saying,
"This powerful new product will promote the growth of the Company."
And the President looked on the product and saw that it was good.
He probably planted a bug on Merkel when he gave her that creepy hug.
Have gnu, will travel.
Did you notice the agencies that are supposed to provide "deniability" to the President are the ones trying to stick it to him here?
He denied knowing because that's in the script the President is supposed to follow.
Apparently the NSA no longer takes its orders from the President.
In fact, they're pretty sure they can live without him.
I wonder if they're going to try to pull a 'Morsi' on us.
Play Command HQ online
I'd bet quite a lot that you're wrong on that count. The source was a high-ranking official. Mattzie is not a source of information about intelligence matters. He was very briefly a reporter. And he outed Hayden as badmouting Obama behind a cover of anomymity. So, Hayden might be the source of this. But definitely not Mattzie.
Or, now that the cat is out of the bag, different fractions within the intelligence community are fighting for its future by leaking information to the press and steering the narrative in the direction they want.
Just remember Seimens (a German company) has sold nuclear tech to Iran.
The Iranian nuclear program was actually started by the US "Atoms for Peace" program, Siemens (actually KWU which was part of Siemens at that time) was a major supplier for the Busher programme which was cancelled - ironically - by Khomeini who thought all weapons of mass destruction as un-islamic. The contracts were terminated with the islamic revolution in 79 and the Russian government (via Rosatom) helped build that reactor and other nuclear facilities. A lot of western companies did supply parts for that, not only Germans but also american companies since many contracts went through Rosatom puppets.
I have no problem with what Bush and then Obama did.
And if Seimens were to sell to North Korea, I say we start bombing.
The French supplied Pakistan with the technology (CEA), the US helped the Indian program (notably with Uranium and Thorium delivered by the Bush administration), so go and bomb France and your hometown...
" Over the past decade Texas has convicted 51 people of voter fraud, according the state's Attorney General Greg Abbott. Only four of those cases were for voter impersonation, the only type of voter fraud that voter ID laws prevent. .00000013 percent of the votes cast, resulted in convictions or guilty pleas. "
Nationwide that rate of voter impersonation is even lower.
Out of the 197 million votes cast for federal candidates between 2002 and 2005, only 40 voters were indicted for voter fraud, according to a Department of Justice study outlined during a 2006 Congressional hearing. Only 26 of those cases, or about
http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/OTUS/voter-fraud-real-rare/story?id=17213376
And yet I'm sure you think having to wait 3 days to purchase a lethal weapon is a burdensome and onerous infringement on your 2nd amendment rights.
This Sig does not Exist.
Dude you even spell it wrong, it's Siemens... And No I'm not feeding you another crumb you troll.
My guess it's something everyone does as a matter of course. In the normal course of things, German security finds out, they get egg on their face for letting it go on so long, Angela Merkel yells at Obama and Obama backs off. End of story until the next time and it all happens behind closed doors.
The problem for *both* sides is that this time it got played out in the papers.
Play Command HQ online
I've never read a post quite so lacking in historical awareness.
Play Command HQ online
Especially if you note which politician landed the word "shitstorm" in the dictionary
To be, or not to be: isn't that quite logical, Slashdot Beta?
"quick! he's phoning about scrapping our budget and getting Clapper and Alexander arrested! Prepare the 16-ton weight NOW!"
To be, or not to be: isn't that quite logical, Slashdot Beta?
For anyone who has had a layover on an international flight it is pretty obvious that countries don't trust each other any-more when one views current airport security practices.
The process on every single layover is as follows:
1. Get off air-plane
2. Leave no-mans-land and enter the country (Customs and Border Control)
3. Pick up your baggage
4. Check your baggage
5. Go through security back into no-mans-land
6. Get on the air-plane
Pretty sad...it was so bad when I left the EU last time that I had to show my passport just to leave.
Just my 2 cents.
Hedghog
That may be true, but strangely enough it doesn't translate into many votes for the American Green Party or others: election 2012: Democrats 332 electors, Republicans 206 electors, total 538, that's all of them ZERO VOTES for the Green Party.
To be, or not to be: isn't that quite logical, Slashdot Beta?
But by our actions we can make it be, or appear to be, not in their best interests to remain our allies. And I have my doubts as to how beneficial being an ally will seem to the average German voter...which will be reflected in how beneficial it appears to the average German politician.
I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
Or, now that the cat is out of the bag, different fractions within the intelligence community are fighting for its future by leaking information to the press and steering the narrative in the direction they want.
Yes. That's just terrible. Tell the CIA and the National Geospatial Survey that we don't need any of their testimony. Their old pal NSA is giving us everything we need about their participation, too. We are so shocked to hear that they would abuse the services of the NSA to bypass the executive chain of command, we don't even want to see their faces.
It seems to me the US secret services have gone out of control; the president clearly does not control them anymore. Obama telling he didn't knwo basically meant "the NSA has gone rogue". The NSA and CIA strike back at Obama by leaking secrets.
The US has had such a period before, the FBI under J.E. Hoover. He knew enough dirt about politicians to be untouchable. With paper files this could be corrected, now the information gas gone digital with many backups I don't see how the US people could reestablish control over these agencies other than by violence - which will be quite difficult to organise with the NSA controlling every line of communication.
To make this more relevant to Slashdot. Consider this:
No one competent in an IT department which handles anything sensitive will be comfortable specifying US produced closed source software ever again.
The issue is not just spying on politicians. It seems the NSA has been involved in 'economic' espionage as well. The company i work for has US competitors, so do most others..It seems that pretty much everything has 'backdoors' - looks like the paranoid were right after all.
That's because of plurality wins voting systems. Most people would rather vote against the candidate they despise the most than just vote of "other", which is all voting 3rd party means in plurality rules, with the proviso that votes for "other" don't really count, and will be ignored if convenient.
There's some formal statement of this called something like Divulgers law, but it's true by inspection. If you only have three parties, then if the largest number of votes for one party is 33.333334% of the vote, that party wins. If you have four parties, then it's possible to win with as little as 25.000001% of the vote. And voter fraud is higher than either of those decimal point values. For this reason I favor *SOME* system that requires a majority of the votes to win, which doesn't mean repeated cycles of voting as this can be done with either Condorcet Voting or Instant Runoff Voting. (Instant Runoff is easier to explain, but Condorcet it technically slightly fairer. It's impossible to have a perfect system, but plurality rules is nearly the worst. The only worse one is "Only one party is allowed".)
I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
It does seem as though someone's trying to throw the POTUS 'under the bus' so to speak here, to save their own hides. If it's the NSA doing an official 'controlled leak' to cast doubt on whether he really knew or not.. and that's all it takes to ruin credibility.. then perhaps the NSA really does believe it is above & beyond any particular administration. I think that's probably been the case for many years. The FBI, CIA and most recently the DHS probably all feel the same way, having been given so much so much power. Re: the POTUS -- just like the NSA I believe he's lying through his teeth like the president before him, and that before him, and so on. It's just painfully obvious now in this particular scandal how deep the lying goes.
What does Bush have to do with it?
I'm questioning a lot of whatever else it was you were trying to say but I'm not sure it was coherent enough for my to understand properly. Maybe you have proven that you don't listen.
It couldn't happen. The president still controls the military, the states still have their guard and even though those pesky tea party conservatives hate obama, a coup is most likely one thing that would bring them rushing to his defense- armed and ready to defend the US and the Constitution.
Agreed. So why aren't the intelligence services undermining him behind his back, rather than in the open?
Fraud is the only viable reason for fighting against voter ID laws. Your opposition proves the need for such laws.
Does this level of ignorance come naturally for you or do you havve to try hard to achieve it?
I can give you at least one mor viable reason for fighting against the kind of voter ID laws that are implemented now:
They very clearly prevent the poor and less educated people from voting. Voter ID laws lead to more eligible voters not being able to vote than the amount of fraudulent votes prevented.
Politicians may claim that the implement these laws to stop voter fraud, but it's obvious they to it to prevent potential votes for the other party.
My guess would be that someone senses there will be carear ending fallout over this happening to heads of state and wanted to ensure they weren't the patsi.
Or maybe they have an alegence to country and not ghd people running it? All i can do is guesd.
That is a classified listening device disguised as a car.
You are one sad case. there are plenty of countries where people in the gutter just get left there. in America, we are fortunate enough to live in a country where someone will come along and pick you up out of the gutter and help you. Fortunes have a way of turning. You may someday be glad you are here.
Nice one.
Fraud is the only viable reason for fighting against voter ID laws. Your opposition proves the need for such laws.
Does this level of ignorance come naturally for you or do you havve to try hard to achieve it?
I can give you at least one mor viable reason for fighting against the kind of voter ID laws that are implemented now:
They very clearly prevent the poor and less educated people from voting. Voter ID laws lead to more eligible voters not being able to vote than the amount of fraudulent votes prevented.
Politicians may claim that the implement these laws to stop voter fraud, but it's obvious they to it to prevent potential votes for the other party.
ID's for the purpose of voting are free if you can't afford them, and they'll even register you to vote at the same time. So tell me again how they stop the poor from voting?
There is no "I disagree" mod for a reason. Flamebait, Troll, and Overrated are not substitutes.