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Germany Finances Major Push Into Home Battery Storage For Solar
mdsolar writes with this bit of news from Green Tech Media "The German government has responded to the next big challenge in its energy transition – storing the output from the solar boom it has created — by doing exactly what it has successfully done to date: greasing the wheels of finance to bring down the cost of new technology. ... Now it is looking at bringing down the cost of the next piece in the puzzle of its energy transition — battery storage. ... KfW’s aim, according to Axel Nawrath, a member of the KfW Bankengruppe executive board, is to ensure that the output of wind and solar must be 'more decoupled' from the grid. ... This is seen as critical as the level of renewable penetration rises to around 40 per cent — a level expected in Germany within the next 10 years. ... According to Papenfuss, households participating in the scheme will spend between €20,000 and €28,000 on solar and storage, depending on the size of the system (the average size is expected to be around 7kW for the solar array and around 4kWh for the battery)."
Personally I prefer my home steam generator. It uses 100% renewable, carbon-cycle, eco-friendly biofuel (wood) to generate steam that drives a turbine generator. I can get about 3kW out of my setup.
That's only a few car batteries.
However the problem still exists the second you scale up.
The problem, as always, is that's it not "just a battery", but "battery with charger with load monitor with safety protection with replacement batteries every few years", which greatly adds to the cost.
If it was easy to store electricity efficiently, we wouldn't need all this "always-on" peak demand power generation. We'd just store everything generated at night already and then release it the next day.
Fact is, as soon as you get into storing electricity, you're into massive efficiency drops.
"The whole point of a central power system is optimization and they are doing the opposite."
A central power system is also a single point of failure, distributed power generation is the way forward once they've got power storage sorted and cheap. The grid can be used as a back up system
"The hands that help are better far than lips that pray." - Robert Ingersoll (1833-1899)
Been saying we should have started doing this in the USA two decades ago when i worked home construction.
Every one of those subdivision mcmansion homes we have built should have come with a solar panel on the roof and 2 volt battery array.
We built MILLIONS of them. Hell the people buying 40k homes for 200k+ you could have even sold it to them as a 'feature' and not subsidize it at all.
Between that and all the big box stores having an array on the roof. We could be powering half the entire country by solar now. And it would have cost less than a month of one of our 'wars'.
But no. Because socialisim or something. Or no wait. Solar is for hippies. Or no wait.. It's expensive. Or no wait. Solar sucks. Or no wait whats the excuse of the day now?
We're dumb.
I agree with the general drive towards decoupling immediate production vs. use with better energy storage, but even with improved battery technology, everyone having batteries in their house is a particularly inefficient (and high-maintenance) way of doing it. Better approaches need quite large sinks for excess energy. For example, pumped-storage hydro is good for very large amounts. For medium-sized amounts, especially transient spikes, Denmark is experimenting with (PDF) dumping the excess production into district heating, since the heat reservoir handles fluctuations better than the grid does.
Better prediction and integration between sources can also help. For example, Denmark is largely managing its fluctuating wind energy these days not by literally storing it, but by predicting much of the variation, and offsetting discretionary production within the integrated Nordic energy market. What mostly happens is that on high-wind days, Sweden and Norway just reduce production at their hydro plants, and use the excess Danish wind power instead. In a sense the excess wind therefore gets stored as potential energy in the hydro reservoirs, but just by not producing the hydro in the first place, rather than pump-storage.
10 PRINT CHR$(205.5+RND(1)); : GOTO 10
yeah, it is not like coal, oil, nukes, hydro, trains, planes, space crafts, cars/roads, electrification, telephony, etc ever got a hand out from a gov, esp. the American federal or state govs.
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
Somehow nobody noticed that temperatures have not gone up in 16 years while CO2 levels climbed. So much for this new pagan religion.
Some people understand the importance of not drawing conclusions about long-term trends from short-term measurements in the presence of noise, and avoid cherry-picking the start date for their trend lines.
They specifically state they are targeting lead-acid and lithium-ion.
Which is a different kind of disaster waiting to happen. Lead batteries provide about 40Wh of storage capacity per kg of lead. Germany has 40m households, and their average electricity consumption is 10 kWh per household per day. Which means that if, statistically, every household wanted to be able store one day of electricity consumption (which, arguably, isn't enough if you go 100% wind/solar, but anyway), you'd need 10 million tons of lead -- about one annual world production of lead, roughly as much as is contained in all car batteries worldwide combined.
And private households only consume 1/3rd or so of all the electricity produced in Germany (businesses and industry consume the other two 3rds).
AFAICT from this, the whole thing is a total non-starter. It will never scale up to any significant number of homes. A few percent of the households (mostly rich home owners) may do it, collect Government support and feel good about saving the environment. The overall effects will be inconsequential -- so much so that the whole project wasn't worth starting in the first place.
I own a house in Germany, unlike most readers here. To be clear, the money from the KfW is a loan, not a subsidy. The subsidy, if there is one, is that most KfW loans are interest free for the first 10 years.
The irritating thing to this home owner is that there seems to be no end to home improvements that our German government would like for me to implement. Be it tripple-paned windows, foam insulation, solar heating, solar power, and now batteries. And my house is barely 20 years old. I'm not against somebody who wants to put all these things into their home, but for this home owner, none of these things make any economic sense - even with a zero interest loan. This home owner has decided to do exactly nothing. And that in and of itself saves the environment a lot of waste.
AFAIK the problem is economics. The Swiss hate the German solar initiative, because it reduces the demand for their hydro power when the prices are highest during the day. Nighttime electricity prices are much lower. It would be nice if they could come to some sort of an economic agreement. It'd be worth it to the Germans to compensate the Swiss to some extent, because the Germans could save money on batteries. ;D
Sorry, that is nonsense
Hydro power, especially pumped storage, is mainly used as "balancing energy" (sorry, no dictionary has the right english term for "Regelenergie").
So it is always payed well, regardless of "germanies solar power". Before germany had "solar power" we used coal. That means Switzerland is losing nothing due to our switch to solar and wind.
In fact they win. Because NOW we indeed buy energy from Switzerland as "balancing energy".
It would be nice if they could come to some sort of an economic agreement ...
We have such agreements already, otherwise the trade between the EU and Switzerland would not happen
Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
Nothing, until there's many so people dumping power into the grid that buying it from you at the fixed market rates becomes economically unsustainable. That's what is happening in Germany right now; utilities are complaining at having to buy this power and having no place to send it (we in NL have been buying it on the cheap, not that the consumer will notice this on their bill, but still). Since the utilities also have to run regular power plants for peak loads, their costs have soared. Electricity in Germany is expensive these days.
Unless they come up with a viable storage option, either in the home or in the neighbourhood, I expect the price of the power you sell back to the grid to drop sharply in the coming years.
If construction was anything like programming, an incorrectly fitted lock would bring down the entire building...
Ditto! Liquid metal (aka: molten salt) batteries are NOT about thermal storage, they are for storing electricity. You (the GP) are thinking of the molten salt systems used in concentrating solar-thermal power plants (aka: solar tower). Check dmbasso's link (above) for more info on liquid-metal battery tech.
Dr. Sadoway has been working with Khosla Ventures the last few years, commercializing this stuff. They expect to begin beta-test field trials with customers next spring, and hope to be in full production by the end of 2014. Khosla is also backing a compressed air solution that uses a sort of water carburetor to achieve isothermal compression (solving an old bugbear of compressed air, the loss of energy to heat).
In short, there are robust, inexpensive storage solutions in the pipeline. (And not a moment too soon.) This will radically alter the "landscape" of renewable energy. When you can couple dirt-cheap solar PV with dirt-cheap storage, you have a recipe for rapid transition.
XML is like violence. If it doesn't solve your problem, you're not using enough of it. --AC