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Aging Linux Kernel Community Is Looking For Younger Participants

Lemeowski writes "Time has been good to Linux and the kernel community, with the level of participation and volume of activity reaching unprecedented levels. But as core Linux kernel developers grow older, there's a very real concern about ensuring younger generations are getting involved. In this post, Open Access supporter Luis Ibanez shares some exciting stats about recent releases of the Linux kernel, but also warns that 'Maintaining the vitality of this large community does not happen spontaneously. On the contrary, it requires dedication and attention by community members on how to bring new contributors on board, and how to train them and integrate them alongside the well-established developers.'"

24 of 332 comments (clear)

  1. Well, I'll tell you why I'm not interested.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I'm part of one of these younger generations, and I'm honestly not interested in getting involved because I've seen how much of a raging asshole Linuz can be. He's a great maintainer, but he could be honest and give constructive criticism in less condescending ways. I'm not as experienced as he is, but that doesn't give him the right to be a complete dick in public theater.

    1. Re:Well, I'll tell you why I'm not interested.. by Joining+Yet+Again · · Score: 4, Insightful

      This. I've tinkered with the kernel, written device drivers, blah, but there's no way in hell I'd ever try to contribute upstream, because I know I'm not an experienced kernel hacker, and frankly I'm not sewn for the sort of macho abuse that dorks like to give each other.

      There are other things I do as a hobby where I'm surrounded by people who are highly experienced, well-respected, but also excellent teachers - e.g. ham radio. There, I'm happy to do as much as I can for the community.

      N.B. I'm not saying that I'd necessarily be good enough to contribute to the official kernel, merely that I wouldn't even try in that sort of environment.

    2. Re:Well, I'll tell you why I'm not interested.. by DeBaas · · Score: 5, Funny

      I'm part of one of these younger generations, and I'm honestly not interested in getting involved because I've seen how much of a raging asshole Linuz can be. He's a great maintainer, but he could be honest and give constructive criticism in less condescending ways. I'm not as experienced as he is, but that doesn't give him the right to be a complete dick in public theater.

      You've managed to asses that he is 'a raging asshole', but now how to properly spell his name?

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    3. Re:Well, I'll tell you why I'm not interested.. by Jah-Wren+Ryel · · Score: 5, Informative

      there's no way in hell I'd ever try to contribute upstream, because I know I'm not an experienced kernel hacker, and frankly I'm not sewn for the sort of macho abuse that dorks like to give each other.

      Sounds like a matter of perception. Linus yells at the people high up in the hierarchy because they are experienced and shouldn't be making dumb mistakes - right or wrong you aren't likely to get on the wrong end of that. As a newbie contributor any work you would do would go through a couple of levels of people vetting it for you. If you make dumb mistakes chances are the person who notices them will be a lot more gentle in pointing them out because dealing with newbies is part of the role in the hierarchy. No system is perfect, I'm sure there are some newbies who have received overly harsh responses, but that's going to be rare.

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      When information is power, privacy is freedom.
    4. Re:Well, I'll tell you why I'm not interested.. by bobbied · · Score: 4, Interesting

      After watching a few videos of "Linuz"... I can assure you that he's pretty harmless, at least in person. I think he puts on the aura of raging narcissist on purpose and if you think about it, the whole persona serves him and Linux well. So far the Kernel project hasn't been fragmented and the project has been extremely stable for many years. This is not the normal course of an open source project, especially one of this visibility. This is largely due to "Linuz" and his persona.

      But this is not to say I think the kernel is in good hands with him at the wheel. I worry about succession should "Linuz" become unavailable (say he's hit by a bus to use his illustration about why you should use git). I worry that the succession battle would be bad for the Kernel and the transition from the dictator rule to something else would be bumpy. Linuz could fix that by starting to transition what he does to his trusted few, and publish a clear future succession plan. But the future is "Difficult to see. Always in motion is the future."

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      "File to fit, pound to insert, paint to match" - Aircraft Maintenance 101
    5. Re:Well, I'll tell you why I'm not interested.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      in that sort of environment.

      Well clearly you have never once 'been to' the LKML but instead built your opinion on the basis of stories-posted-on-slashdot.
      Otherwise you would know that the LKML receives around 400 mails per day, the vast majority of which are polite, friendly and helpful.
      Compare that with the number of posts offensive enough to make a story on /.

    6. Re:Well, I'll tell you why I'm not interested.. by nctritech · · Score: 5, Informative

      I have contributed some bug reports and fixes to LKML and I have yet to encounter anything other than a terse but helpful and friendly nature amongst those that picked up my reports and directly communicated with me to fix the code. The only people who get reamed on LKML or get a middle finger are the ones that do egregiously foolish things and should know better. Linux is a massive project that spans thousands of cultures and subcultures in the meatspace department, and there is no time at all to address every error with compliment sandwiches and a facade of "bless your heart" pseudo-kindness.

      "Show me the code" is the mantra. If your code is shit and you're new, you'll be politely pointed at a resource such as the coding style guide or KernelNewbies to correct it. If your code is shit and you manage a whole kernel subsystem, you can expect to be told "your code is shit and you know better!" by Linus directly, because....get this: you tried to feed shit code into the kernel (which hurts everyone else because they ALL have to maintain your code down the line) and you're high enough on the food chain that you know better.

    7. Re:Well, I'll tell you why I'm not interested.. by LordNimon · · Score: 5, Informative

      I've been working on the Linux kernel for 10 years with numerous commits upstream, and I've never communicated with Linus.

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      And the men who hold high places must be the ones who start
      To mold a new reality... closer to the heart
    8. Re:Well, I'll tell you why I'm not interested.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Well clearly you have never once 'been to' the LKML but instead built your opinion on the basis of stories-posted-on-slashdot.
      Otherwise you would know that the LKML receives around 400 mails per day, the vast majority of which are polite, friendly and helpful.
      Compare that with the number of posts offensive enough to make a story on /.

      I *have* posted bugs on LKML, and gotten responses. I have interacted with at least two high level developers, as well as Mr. Torvalds. The one time I got a reply (Len Brown, INTEL senior systems engineer) plus asked to download software to dump the rom from hardware, followed by an analysis and a change to the kernel (which I then applied, re-compiled and tested with reports. About 200,000 people were affected by that bug (and I got email from around the world). I've also gotten several very polite replies from Alan Cox and a few others. The trick is that you have to 1) know about computers, be able to describe the bug fully, what you have tried to fix the bug, and how it affects things. 2) be able to reply to questions / do more testing 3) re-compile a kernel with a fix and see if it fixes the bug. Most people can't do #3.

    9. Re:Well, I'll tell you why I'm not interested.. by Andy+Dodd · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Yeah. Sometimes projects can wind up in a nightmarish situation in terms of getting new contributors, because the bar to contribution is perceived to be high (even if it might not be).

      I used to be a contributor to a fairly large open source project - Overall it was good, but the leads could be downright pricks. They would often trash talk potential contributors, even ones that did show potential. (Sadly, this particular area had a lot of "wannabes" out for glory too...) - While their smacktalk would keep the "wannabes" at bay, it also drove away some exceptional talent.

      I was always frustrated by some of these "lone wolf" developers that weren't upstreaming, until myself and a few contributors had a massive disagreement with the project leadership regarding an attempt they made to obtain dual-license commercial rights to a contribution. We started working on founding our own project, and we've found that many of those who I originally (mistakenly) perceived as "lone wolves" and not contributing because something was wrong with them were actually not contributing because there were so many things wrong with our former project and we had been drinking the kool-aid. Quite a few of them have proven to be spectacularly talented and excellent team players.

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      retrorocket.o not found, launch anyway?
    10. Re:Well, I'll tell you why I'm not interested.. by ifiwereasculptor · · Score: 4, Insightful

      It's funny how different perspectives can be. If I wanted to contribute to the kernel and someone ended up being severely impolite, I'd find it weird and either reply or don't. On the other hand, if my boss was being abusive, I'd switch jobs ASAP. I guess what I'm trying to say is that I find random interpersonal abuse way less disturbing than workplace abuse, since in the latter case you're at a clear hierarchical disadvantage and actually depend on your boss to get your paycheck.

      And, by the way, it's interesting that you say "some prick who expects me to VOLUNTEER for the honor of having him dress me down like a bitch? Not so much." while posting on /., where that kind of free verbal aggression seems to be mandatory.

    11. Re:Well, I'll tell you why I'm not interested.. by Joining+Yet+Again · · Score: 5, Interesting

      And that ^^ is exactly the kind of "alpha male" talk I mean.

      I have no interest in proving "myself" - I just want to contribute good code. If I don't contribute good code, that's fine - reject it and tell me what's wrong with it. I'll try again. You have no good reason to shout me down unless I'm causing you immediate harm. If I'm simply wrong about something, and you have the final say, what exactly motivates the aggression?

      I'm a fairly competent mathematician. I've worked with people who are smarter than I could ever dream to be. My peers are occasionally mocking when I fuck up, and I can take a friendly jibe, but no senior has ever made an insulting, showboating remark to me - not even one to one, let alone in public. This macho culture is something I've only really seen professionally in engineering (software and mechanical).

      It doesn't matter in the slightest how successful Linux is. That's not an excuse for complacency. In fact, if you look at the very topic of this Slashdot post, it's the worry that there's not enough fresh blood. Arguing that the problem must be with everyone else isn't going to get you that new talent, is it?

  2. Get on my Lawn by DeBaas · · Score: 5, Funny

    Get on my Lawn!

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  3. As someone who is taking OS course by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    This semester, I am taking OS course at UMBC.
    Course is easy, material is easy. Hard part - figuring out how the fuck you should write Linux Kernel code.
    Why there are no good tutorials that on how to write basic kernel code, good guides on its structure (many book sold on Amazon are outdated) ......there should be one, centralized place with all the useful materials for the beginners + it should be constantly updated.

    1. Re:As someone who is taking OS course by DarkOx · · Score: 5, Informative
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      Repeal the 17th Amendment TODAY! Also Please Read http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.html
  4. College Outreach by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    Perhaps a campus tour where the senior kernel devs can personally tell prospective developers that they are retarded and kick them in the balls.

  5. My reason for not getting involved. by hamster_nz · · Score: 5, Interesting

    It is just too damn big, hard and complex. Why would I want to learn the ins and outs of such a large codebase unless somebody is paying me to?

    It is not like the old days when you could pick up a "... in a nutshell" book, start hacking up a driver, then get it accepted into the kernel. I don't want a three year unpaid intership while I get up to speed and gain respect in the comunity.

    I'll spend my time working on my project on either a microcontroller (AVR, PIC...) or a bare-metal build on ARM.

  6. Re:Not just young folk... by nine-times · · Score: 4, Informative

    Why release a simple system, when you can bloat it with a zillion tweaks of dubious value and then charge money to keep the whole mess working?

    I don't think it's really as malicious as that. The larger problem is that everyone has a slightly different definition of what makes a simple, stripped down system. You only want the features you want, I only want the features that I want. You want a rock-solid server; I want a responsive and feature-rich desktop system; my brother just wants to play video games. You can't do it all without a little bit of complexity.

    And look at what happens when they try. Someone proposes a new window compositing system that will make development easier and performance more responsive, and people get all bent out of shape because it breaks the X11 spec.

    Microsoft is a whole other ball of wax. Chronic mismanagement, perverse incentives to sabotage any product which might cannibalize the Windows/Office products, and an attempt to maintain backwards compatibility as much as possible, going back to DOS systems from a quarter century ago.

  7. Its a trap!!! by FudRucker · · Score: 4, Funny

    they just want to kick you off their lawn

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    Politics is Treachery, Religion is Brainwashing
  8. Re:Consider the possibility it might be done by fisted · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I know I've mentioned this before, but you need to consider the possibility that your software might be done.

    Considered and considered stupid, because suggested in the context of operating systems. Operating systems are only done when hardware is 'done', which is unlikely to happen any time soon IMO.

  9. Propose projects on which newbies can start by lorinc · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I'm actually managing an OS course for graduate students, and it's heavily based on linux (userspace and kernelspace). We do a few exercices (like writing a kernel module that computes averages), but nothing fancy. I've always been looking to propose them some projects related to kernel dev, but as I'm not a kernel hacker myself, I have clearly no idea of what seems reasonable.

    So here's the deal: If you are involved on some subsystem of the linux kernel and you have something you want to get coded that can be a first experience with kernel dev, and that can be done under about 100 hours (the length of a typical project), you contact me. I'll do as much as possible as a first step filtering so that you won't get spamed. It's a win-win situation: I have great projects for my students, you get free work. For this year, it's a bit short, because projects are from September until January, but next year is ok.

  10. The real problem is in not hiring junior anybody by undeadbill · · Score: 4, Insightful

    When Linux was first released, it was relatively easy to break into the IT field and get directly into programming with limited experience and resources. The fact that the Linux kernel was initially created by a 15 year old kid on a home computer says much about that. My saying so doesn't lessen Linus Torvald's genius in any way, but it does underscore how those opportunities to create haven't been extended to future 15 year olds in the same manner.

    Or anyone of working age. When was the last time a company hired junior admins and other flunkies specifically for the purpose of training them up to a competent level of expertise? That was common in the 90s, and is almost non-existent 20 years later. The last two companies I've worked for flat out refuse to hire junior staff and train them. Many companies refuse to future proof their IT (ops and dev) staffing in any way. This has led to a huge gap in expertise.

    The final issue that was birthed out of refusing to hire inexperienced staff is all of the certification programs that arose as a result of such parsimony. Am I the only one who thinks that being able to turn on a few services *doesn't* make someone a systems administrator? I'd be more concerned about their ability to write and update their own changes to services, and to the man pages, and submitting complete work back to the relevant project- but THAT isn't (generally) taught in the cert programs, even though that will make someone a better administrator and/or developer. This just weakens expectations in the field, and severely limits a self-selected candidate pool of future kernel programmers.

  11. "environment" by SuperBanana · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Well clearly you do not understand what the word "environment" means.

    If someone makes a sexist, derogatory joke in the weekly programming meeting and someone is offended and complains, it's not a defense to say "well it was only one joke, in one meeting, from one person."

    The problem is not the one joke. The problem is that the environment was conducive, accepting, and tolerant of the joke. Linus's abusive treatment of others is not only tolerated, but accepted, excused, and justified, both there and on other communities (like Slashdot, right now...) Because he's in a leadership position, it sets the example and tone for how others are treated...

    The response to people saying "I'm not comfortable contributing" is not "stop being a baby." If it is, you don't actually care about getting people to contribute.

  12. Re:The real problem is in not hiring junior anybod by Meditato · · Score: 4, Informative

    The fact that the Linux kernel was initially created by a 15 year old kid on a home computer says much about that.

    Linus Torvalds was born in 1969. The Linux Kernel project began in 1991. He was not 15.