Toyota Announces Plans For Fuel Cell Car By 2015

puddingebola writes "Toyota has announced plans for a fuel cell powered car at the Tokyo Motor show. From the article, 'Satoshi Ogiso, the Toyota Motor Corp. executive in charge of fuel cells, said Wednesday the vehicle is not just for leasing to officials and celebrities but will be an everyday car for ordinary consumers, widely available at dealers. "Development is going very smoothly," he told The Associated Press on the sidelines of the Tokyo Motor Show. The car will go on sale in Japan in 2015 and within a year later in Europe and U.S."'"

Comments

they've had this place since what 2010?

[GoodNewsJimDotCom]

I remember at least 2 years ago, Toyota had this plan. Hydrogen isn't as bad as people make it out to be. You just need special materials to work with. If you go steel, it just gets owned. So special materials are expensive in the short run until they're manufactured. Hydrogen itself is just made with electricity and water. It isn't much different than electric cars in that regard. The main difference is electric cars need expensive batteries. Hydrogen cars only need a pressurized tank. I think in the long run hydrogen cars can win out. Do go investing in hydrogen refilling stations just yet though like that electric car got ahead of the curve.

Re:they've had this place since what 2010?

[TheLink]

If they use hydrocarbon fuel cells the cars may be able to use the existing fuel stations (likely to need filters to prevent poisoning from impurities). They'd probably still release CO2 but be more efficient.

Far more convenient than cars with hydrogen tanks.

Re:they've had this place since what 2010?

[FlyHelicopters]

Hydrogen itself is just made with electricity and water.

Yes, except that is not really how most of it gets made.

Frankly, one of the cheapest sources for hydrogen is from natural gas:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_production#Steam_reforming

Besides, where is all the electricity going to come from to do from pure water? Coal fired power plants? Yea, that sure fixes the problem!

So either you take it from natural gas, which is about 80% efficient, or you take it from water which isn't efficient at all and get the electricity from coal power plants, which isn't clean either.

I'm all for replacing oil and gas as our fuels, but unless we use nuclear energy to power the Electrolysis to pull it from water, this isn't solving anything.

BTW, less than 5% of hydrogen is actually obtained from water, 95+% is obtained from fossil fuels.

Re:they've had this place since what 2010?

[Solandri]

Just to put some numbers on this:

Natural gas power plant: 60% efficient
Electrical transmission from plant to home: 98% efficient
Battery charging: 75% efficient
Net efficiency: .6*.98*.75 = 44%

Natural gas power plant: 60% efficient
Electrolysis next door to power plant: 65% efficient (this is about the best you can get in a lab, so I'm being generous)
Hydrogen fuel cell: 75% efficient (again being generous - they've gotten over 90% in a lab, but anything over 50% commercially is good)
Net efficiency: .6*.65*.75 = 29%

Gasoline engine: ~30% efficient

Yes the gasoline engine suffers additional losses when operating outside its optimal RPM, and the transmission. But electric motors are the same when not run at their optimal RPM. So I've omitted the last step in the power transfer to the wheels.

The only way hydrogen fuel cells make sense compared to regular gasoline cars (never mind EVs) is if you don't use electrolysis and liberate the hydrogen directly from petrochemicals like natural gas. If gasoline-like refueling is an important market factor, I think biofuels are going to end up the winner, not hydrogen.