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NHTSA Tells Tesla To Stop Exaggerating Model S Safety Rating
cartechboy writes "There's always that kid in the class that ruins it for everyone when being graded on a curve. At the moment, that kid is Tesla and Elon Musk. Tesla's been proudly claiming the Model S is one of the safest cars in the word despite the recent fire controversy. And while it may be just that, claiming it earned 5.4 stars from NHTSA isn't pleasing the safety agency as there is no such thing as a rating higher than five. While NHTSA already released a statement indirectly to Tesla saying it doesn't release ratings higher than 5, Tesla continued to promote this fictitious rating. Now NHTSA has updated its guidelines explicitly stating safety ratings are whole numbers only and that 5 stars is the maximum advertisers can claim. If advertisers and automakers decide to disregard these rules NHTSA is threatening removal from the program or referral to state authorities for appropriate action. Basically, hey Tesla, stop making false claims."
My car's rating is higher than the maximum rating allowed by the NHTSA.
No sig today...
Stay tuned for Elon Musk's critique of the NHTSA and long blog post detailing why the NHTSA is a bunch of corrupt scumbags and how Tesla is so awesome that it is able to get ratings above a perfect score.
I guess casting the nhtsarating is not allowed.
It got a 5.4 rating, but the NHTSA guidelines only allow them to advertise a whole number.
Liar liar car on fire!
If you like your Tesla safety rating, you can keep your Tesla safety rating.
Table-ized A.I.
"Since we are marketing to nerds, we are using a base 12 numbering system".
Table-ized A.I.
Just to clarify, the NHTSA hasn't said anything to Tesla like the summary states. It has clarified its rating system. That is all.
That article is written like a high schooler's blog.
I think we've seen this before...
Elon Musk would never have accomplished what he has if it wasn't for his rabid passion and forceful, egotistical personality. He is trying to change the status quo in an industry where many have tried and failed, and where many want Tesla to fail as well. He had best try to temper himself, though; lest he become our generation's Nikola Tesla/Howard Hughes in more ways than one.....
The claim is false: The NHTSA rates cars on a 5-point scale, and gave the Tesla S a 5-point rating, the highest they could get. This rating is based on several sub-ratings, where the Tesla also got 5-point ratings, in all categories.
Tesla is basically trying to claim for marketing purposes the fact that they got 5-point ratings in all of the subcategories (which isn't necessary for a 5-point overall rating, and in fact is extremely unusual, if not unique) means that they got 'better than a normal 5-point rating'. Which, ok, they did, but the rating only goes to five points. They can't create a new rating scale just for themselves.
'Sensible' is a curse word.
Because the rating system isn't accurate enough to say for sure that .1 difference is accurate. The ratings are subjective enough that whole numbers are as accurate as you can get reliably.
Persistent Volume manager for Kubernetes - https://github.com/dwimsey/openshift-pvmanager
Apparently people aren't reading what's been said. Tesla's press release says: "National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) has awarded the Tesla Model S a 5-star safety rating", and "NHTSA does not publish a star rating above 5". Thus Tesla is not claiming that they were assigned a 5.4 since they outright acknowledge that NHTSA doesn't publish a rating above 5. What Tesla did say is that if one were to take the individual scores that were provided by the NHTSA (which apparently includes ratings above 5, and possibly decimal as well) and average those, the resultant number would be a 5.4.
Now what is probably getting the other manufacturers upset is that the clipping of the results at 5 means that the vehicles that just squeaked into the 5 look the same as vehicles which may have blown past the 5. If they didn't like that, why aren't the individual scores also integral and clipped at 5? Then one could not possibly claim (or even appear to claim) a number higher than 5.
So, this whole release is trying to beat up Tesla for something they didn't say. They didn't say that the NHTSA awarded them a 5.4 rating (see the first quote). They did say: "achieved a new combined record of 5.4 stars.".
Here in the USA, the grid is 68% fossil fuels. So unless Tesla is including a free ZPM with every purchase, "Zero Emissions" is a crock of shit, just like a 5.4 star safety rating.
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DRM is like antifreeze, to the MPAA/RIAA it's sweet, to the consumers it's poison.
Yeah, Musk is self-righteous and crazy intense about the PR for his companies. However, this seems like a warning that was justified, and at the same time might not have been foreseen by those making the claims, because it's kind of a technical quibble.
Anyone have any explanation on how he got a 5.4? I don't think Musk would just arbitrarily post a number.
Sometimes you have to know when to hold 'em, know when to fold 'em, and know when to walk away.
Yep. The NHTSA apparently gives the manufacturers the individual ratings in each category, which presumably go above 5 and may be decimal. They may have some sort of agreement that they aren't allowed to publish the individual ratings.
Pfffff...... his sound system goes to 11 .4 , bitch!
I support the Slashcott and will not be reading or commenting from 2/10/14 to 2/17/14. Beta is steaming pile of dog shit
As far as I can tell, Tesla claims - as do several news outlets - that the NHTSA also releases some other raw numbers to the manufacturers which Tesla then decided to 'combine' (whether that's adding or averaging or whatever - who knows.) to give a 5.4 .
Really, the issue is lack of transparency - since we, the public, don't get to see those numbers. Thus we can't really give a good opinion other than "NHTSA says 5 is the maximum. THE MAXIMUM!" and all nod in agreement at the overlord's words apparently for fear of getting booted out.
This in turn leads to gems like this:
"No matter what, you can't say it's the safest car ever tested, just that it had the best overall test score of any vehicle tested by NHTSA." - NHTSA ( http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/tesla-crash-test-rating-high-maker-claimed/story?id=20024779 )
So it had the best overall test score .. but is not necessarily the safest. But the test is on safety. So it's the best in safety.. but not necessarily the best in safety.
Maybe while they're quibbling they could come up with a system that makes sense to themselves, the manufacturers and, most importantly, the public. If in the end that means Tesla does get a 5.4 and they want to hang on to 5 stars - well I guess they'll just have to lower the rating on a bunch of other cars.
The next Tesla ad will claim a safety rating of 11.0 stars from the NHTSA (small print: National Highway Tesla Sales Association).
Oh come on, it doesn't matter what Slashdot think, Musk is still just a side-show scammer who got lucky.
And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
About 80% of the comments already seem to be talk about how the NHTSA actually did give them a 5.4, but only allows them to advertise whole numbers and nothing above 5. So... it's a technical dispute over bureaucratic assholery.
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oily benefactors
Hey, now! Dice.com is a lot of things but that's a low blow!
No, you don't get it. .4 safer. For example say that you are in the safest car you could find, it is all the way up to 5 stars safety rating. All the way up. But you want it a little more safer, to be able to go over the cliff, so what can you do? That's where Tesla comes, giving you that extra .4.
All volume controls go to 10.
Nigel's go to 11. They are one louder.
Similarly, all safety ratings go to 5.
Tesla's goes to 5.4, it is
Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent. Polar Scope Align for iOS
"She'll make .5 past light."
"She may not look like much, but she's got it where it counts."
There's no such thing as a "big oil" company any more - the big guys are all "energy" companies and care as much about natural gas. In places where electricity comes from natural gas, the energy companies may make more per mile from the Tesla than a gas-burner (maybe not this year, since natural gas is so cheap right now, but the logistics from oil drill to gas pump are complex and expensive, compared to selling natural gas to power companies).
Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
If Tesla really did rank 5.4, then let the other manufactures get some public shaming. Maybe they can respond to purchasing competition & catch up and make their cars safer.
Again - since Musk is the only one who hasn't played by the rules here, why are you assuming the other five-star-rated cars are exactly 5.0? There likely have been others that scored 5.2, 5.3, or 5.39 on that particular sub-test - but their manufacturers followed NHTSA guidelines when promoting their vehicles' safety.
You really have no evidence that the Tesla tested out as being significantly safer than those other five-star cars.
#DeleteChrome
How many supplies have _you_ delivered to the ISS?
To play devil's advocate for a second, measurements like the safety ratings inherently have error to them. For something like car safety, is a 5.4 really better than a 5.3, or was that just a quirk of the particular tests they did, and the 5.3 would be safer on the road?
Look at it from the NHTSA's perspective: if you think that Tesla's advertising is making claims that aren't particularly supportable because of margins of error like that and they're using your data to do it (and in the process saying essentially "NHTSA says we're the safest car on the road" when you don't want to make that claim), I think you'd be well within the realm of reasonableness to make them stop it.
Musk doesnt need a rebuttal, since (if Im reading this right) NHTSA didnt contradict his claim that the internally provided NHTSA data showed a 5.4 rating; their objection appears to be that, for advertising / marketing purposes, the "official" NHTSA numbers end at 5 and you arent supposed to quote NHTSA as assessing a higher number than that.
Maybe Im mis-reading this, but the Tesla press release from August even said as much-- that the "public" rating was 5 stars, but the "eyes only" manufacturer assessment was higher. Certainly NHTSA doesnt seem to contradict that the Tesla scored quite high, or even the claim that it was a record.
Not really.
What happens is cars are rated to the current safety rating - the reason you can score above 5 is because the number is based on the raw figures and the current weightings.
The NHTSA records down in its database the raw numbers, then uses those numbers to calculate the safety rating based on the current weightings (from empirical data). This lets them recalculate the safety rating as need be - yesteryear's 5 stars may be this year's 3 stars, for example. Or, depending on how cars individually perform, it's possible two 5 star cars with the old rating may become a 3-star and a 4-star car.
So you cannot compare "stars" between model years, but you can compare them with historical vehicles recalculated to new standards. After all, many old 5 star vehicles may lack the safety features present on today's modern vehicles, so they won't be 5 stars anymore in the current rating.
The rating will go down as new model years and new tests are introduced - after all, we'd have hit 5 stars 50 years ago if the tests didn't change. The NHTSA updates its tests and ratings when too many cars are pegged - and there's a new test that apparently reflect the more common crashes that many "5 star" cars now fare poorly on.
Next year, the 2013 Tesla Model S may drop from 5.4 to 4.3. But the 2014 Tesla Model S may still get a full 5 stars because Tesla anticipated the new tests and built the cars to withstand them appropriately.
No, thats NOT what tesla claimed, their actual claim was exactly this:
NHTSA does not publish a star rating above 5, however safety levels better than 5 stars are captured in the overall Vehicle Safety Score (VSS) provided to manufacturers, where the Model S achieved a new combined record of 5.4 stars.
Thats possible, but Tesla indicates that 5.4 is a new record, and it does seem that 5-star ratings in every category is unusual.
They also provide this handy graphic, but being a complete failure at statistics I cant confirm that it supports their claim.
http://www.teslamotors.com/sites/default/files/blog_images/model-s-five-star-safety-rating.jpg
During Tesla's initial work on AC power, electricity was a luxury for the rich rather than the common man's utility. And the "particle beam weapons, remote control devices, and wireless power" didn't exactly get to "majority of the populace" status, either. Giving Tesla credit for every engineering advancement in those fields over half a century since his death is a bit excessive hero-worship. Tesla did a lot of great stuff, but a lot wasn't particularly useful at the time (or even later, for the more wildly speculative projects based on handwaving more than practical engineering). Your glorification of Tesla is like someone looking back fifty years from now and saying that Musk single-handedly put an electric car and a rocket ship in every middle-class garage --- a hint of fact under a heap of exaggeration.
No, he's not correct. If he wants to go into more detail about safety than the NHTSA does, or make claims on his own, that's fine.
They are correct, you are wrong.
"NHTSA does not publish a star rating above 5, however safety levels better than 5 stars are captured in the overall Vehicle Safety Score (VSS) provided to manufacturers, where the Model S achieved a new combined record of 5.4 stars."
The NHTSA is pissed because you're not supposed to TELL people what the ACTUAL safety rating is.
For example, the Tesla's VSS works out to 5.4 stars prior to rounding, another car has 4.5 stars prior to rounding. Despite being almost an entire "star" apart, both these vehicles get "5 stars" and appear to be just as safe to the consumer. The NHTSA is pissed because they don't want the public to be aware of it, because people will rightfully ignore the star ratings and demand the raw VSS instead. And that would show many cars are a lot worse in comparison than the Star System reveals... and the people who are invested in those companies pend a LOT of money on political donations.
It's ALSO important to note that even the NHTSA admits they don't even consider many of the more advanced safety systems in their calculations at all.
1) the grid is just fine. It does not have the issues that you seem to think.
2) EVs with larger batteries, charge in the nighttime with cheap energy, but will lower the price of electricity for all of us.
3) US's electricy is 37% coal; 27% natural gas; 20% Nuclear; 7% hydro; 1% oil/gas/etc; with the rest coming from AE.
4) numerous studies have shown that our grid and power situation is good enough to provide more than 90% of our transportion energy, provided that about 70% of that is during night-time charging. In fact, by having true EVs with about 150 MPC, it will LOWER our electricity costs since the bill for the grid and all the rest is spread over to EVs AND utilities can drop expensive on-demand systems for daytime, and instead go with more base-load systems since they will be used in the night as well.
But hey, do not let us interfere with your wet dream.
So you're claiming you put up $100k early on, sat back and let it run well past a million without taking profits, then miraculously sold at the very top.
Maybe that's what happened but it's difficult to believe. How about posting a transaction statement or two?