Beer Drinking Networks In Amazon Tribe Help Explain Altruism

KentuckyFC writes "The Tsimane tribe are hunter-gatherers living in the forested region between the foothills of the Andes and the wetland-savannas of the Llanos de Moxos in Bolivia. They drink beer made from boiled manioc (a type of sweet potato) which they chew and spit into the mix to trigger fermentation. After a week or so, the resultant brew is about 4 per cent alcohol. Now anthropologists studying this tribe say the way they host beer drinking events for each other offers important clues into their culture. At issue is the question of altruism: why people spend considerable time and effort doing favors for others that don't directly benefit them. The answer from studying these beer drinking events is that the favor is quickly returned by the guests in the form of another beer drinking event. This helps to build good relations with neighbors and family. And when the beer drinking invite is not returned, the researchers speculate that this is probably because there is some other favor involved, such as helping to gather or prepare food, suggesting mates or political co-operation."

Comments

most violence here a 2AM bar closing

[peter303]

counter example lots of fights, rapes, and mruders just after 2AM

Re:most violence here a 2AM bar closing

[Chris Mattern]

What counter example? As you point out, after 2 AM is *after* closing. Therefore beer=good, no beer=bad.

Re:most violence here a 2AM bar closing

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't mind if I do.

Re:most violence here a 2AM bar closing

[TsuruchiBrian]

[goes crazy]

It's not altruism if a favor is expected in return

[trout007]

Doing something for someone else with no expectation of it being returned is altruism.

Re:It's not altruism if a favor is expected in ret

[sideslash]

That's a truism. But on the other hand, they're not some kind of beneficence cult. All true "ism"s would attach other kinds of baggage to the favors.

Conclusion:

[tpstigers]

Beer is good.

I'll take that Ph.D. now.

Explain how?

[jbmartin6]

I don't see how this explains altruism, this explains self interest. It's no different than chimps taking turns picking lice off each other. (Disclaimer: I had chimp-like ancestors. Also, I am not saying chimps and the people in TFA are equivalent). Altruism is jumping on a live hand grenade, or taking on a predator while the rest of the troop flees.

Re:Explain how?

[jbmartin6]

Another point, it seems TFA doesn't use the word "altruism" it uses "reciprocity". So jeers for the submitter on that point.

Re:Explain how?

[rgbatduke]

The point is that to explain altruism, one has to -- um -- show that it isn't really altruism. Even Christianity's take on altruism isn't that it is a truly selfless act, only that you get your reward later, in heaven. The closest you can probably come in human affairs is to consider an atheist (no karma-weighted rebirth, no post-mortem reward or punishment) who sacrifices their life to save the life of a complete stranger. And even there, one can come up with a sort of "happy people make for a happy world" and "it is better to live in a happy world than an unhappy world" and a "I'm going to die anyway and it is existentially a pointless coin flip whether I die now or die later, but I'll get a lot of momentary satisfaction from the process of sacrificing myself for others so that we overall can live in a happier world right now" argument that makes it if not expressed self-interest in the classic sense, a rational choice (mistaken or not) made by a self-aware entity and hence of some immediate "benefit" to the individual making the choice in a strictly utilitarian sense.

A variant of this happy people thing is the basis of Buddhism, an atheist altruistic philosophy. Suffering is bad, suffering is universal, we would individually be better off suffering less, but since we live in a collective society where we can inflict suffering on others and have others inflict suffering on us, it is in our own self-interest to at the very least be compassionate and act in a way that is both protective of our own happiness (minimizes our own suffering) and either avoids inflicting additional suffering on others or actively helps them to avoid suffering and thereby become more content. It's quite rational -- I'd much rather live in a world where people are for the most part contented with their lot, secure economically, safe physically, Maslow's hierarchy of needs well-met than to live in a world of chaos and backstabbing, war and robbery, where the strong impose their will on the weak and inflict endless suffering upon them. Even the lot of the strong in a world like that is less to be desired than life in a "just" society that strongly enforces the inverse golden rule (do not unto others as you would have them not do unto you).

At the end of the day, we'd all be a lot better off if we just sat around having a few beers with our neighbors, taking turns buying. Metaphorically if not otherwise -- allowing for the fact that 10% or thereabouts of the human species are potential or actual alcoholics, as we haven't finished evolving alcohol tolerance in only 10,000 or so years, and alcoholism is a moderately weak selection pressure (and one that for much of the last 6000 years, has been a survival advantage on multiple counts).

rgb

Re:Explain how?

[10101001 10101001]

The point is that to explain altruism, one has to -- um -- show that it isn't really altruism.

No, the problem is that "to explain altruism" is taken to mean "altruism is the effect of something else". Yet the very definition of altruism is that it is an act without cause. Trying to explain altruism is like trying to explain random acts of violence. The truth is, a lot of acts aren't altruistic or random. And understanding those situations can help you know how to cause more or less of the desired behavior. But, clearly, there's plenty of altruism (and random acts of violence) in the world. I just find it sad that people are so quick to want people to justify their charity and that people don't respond appropriately: because.

Islam

[sycodon]

I bet if Islam allowed alcohol they'd all be a lot less cranky.

Re:Islam

[Mordok-DestroyerOfWo]

I bet if Islam allowed alcohol they'd all be a lot less cranky.

Some of the crankiest people I knew were fundies living in dry counties in Texas. You may be on to something.

Re:Islam

[Jason Levine]

I can't speak to other religions, but Judaism has always equated wine with happiness. (Anyone who says Jews see wine as blood is just repeating centuries-old blood libel lies.) While it might frown on abusing alcohol, there's nothing that says alcohol is bad by nature. In fact, there's one holiday, Purim, where you get dressed up in costumes, give each other presents, and are religiously commanded to get drunk. (So drunk that you can't tell the difference between "Blessed is Mordechai" and "Cursed is Haman.") I think of it as Halloween, Christmas, and St. Patrick's Day all rolled into one.

Re:It's not altruism if a favor is expected in ret

[somersault]

I don't know if a favour is expected in return, but there's something in us that makes us want to help others who've helped us anyway.

It seems obvious that altruistic behaviour would be a result of the fact that a species that helps each other is more likely to survive. It might also have side effects, like wanting to help any living creature to survive.. but as long as that doesn't damage the original species' reproductive abilities, there's no reason for that behaviour to be selected out.

Interesting historical significance of Beer

[sl4shd0rk]

"This show traces the important role that beer has played in human history from the probable origins of the first beer at the dawn of history to the development of a special beer for use in zero gravity space missions."

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1832368/

Re:Do you wan't to know how you can tell a Queer?

[ah.clem]

I'm not certain I see the positive point of this comment; personally, it just seems like bashing to me. Perhaps you meant it as a joke? Still, at what point do we stop picking on people for being different? As IT workers, we're the brunt of a lot of "less than funny" jokes; why continue that practice on another group? I just don't understand it.

Re:It's not altruism if a favor is expected in ret

[LordLimecat]

All true "ism"s

I see what you did there.

Re:Umm.... duh.

[CanHasDIY]

Just because you've never done something nice for someone else while expecting nothing in return doesn't mean altruism doesn't exist; it means you're selfish.

To wit, the other night my wife told me a homeless guy helped her carry and load her groceries in the car; all he got out of the deal was a pleasant conversation, and still went away smiling.

Re:I don't get it...

[Mordok-DestroyerOfWo]

I'm more concerned that /. will get taken down by Coors, Bud, et al. for disclosing their secret recipe. I had always assumed it was cat urine, but I stand corrected.

We know how altruism evolves

[140Mandak262Jamuna]

I think we understand the evolutionary mechanism behind the development of altruism well enough now. The "tournament of algorithms" conducted by the U Mich in the late 1980s on the iterative prisoners dilemma provided the seminal breakthrough. Carl Sagan's article on the Golden Rule in the Parade mag in early 1990s and the newly added chapter 13 to "The Selfish Gene" by Richard Dawkins in the 30th anniversary edition of that book are easier to read. Game theory developed further. We are now able to explain the circumstances under which altruism develops, and we also understand why it is impossible to drive the "freeloaders" all the way down to zero. We are beginning to understand the role played by taboos and religion in reducing the freeloader problems. Some, like Steven Pinker, think evolution of the language 75000 years ago essentially needed a mechanism to check the freeloaders and religion was probably that mechanism.

So we are pretty far along these directions. Research on reciprocal altruism like this beer drinking ritual by some tribals is minor compared to the extensive work done on the bats regurgitating blood to share food with bats who did not have a successful hunt.

Re:It's not altruism if a favor is expected in ret

[sudon't]

Doing something for someone else with no expectation of it being returned is altruism.

I agree with that. It seems little different than the "round buying" that goes on in bars/pubs. When one buys a round, there's a reasonable expectation that everyone in the group will in turn buy a round. Unless you have a guy like Bob, who's always broke, but he's very entertaining to drink with, and a good guy. I guess we're buying him rounds for entertainment and companionship, so even that's not pure altruism.

Because the Tsimane don't have local bars, and making up a batch of brew is such a pain, it looks like they came up with a way to take turns being treated so that one is treated more often than one has to treat. Hardly altruism.

Re:How traditions start

[laejoh]

Oh, it still beats Bud...

Re:The obvious comparison

[Waffle Iron]

In before the first derpling herps up a comparison to American beer. Herp herp derp.

Manioc "Primitive Yam" Sweet Potato Ale

Brewed by The Original Tsimane Tribe Brewing Co.

63 overall, 99 style.

Ratings: 14 Weighted Avg: 3.43 Est Calories: 345 ABV: 4.0%

4.5 AROMA: 8/10 APPEARANCE 9/10 TASTE 8/10 PALATE 7/10 OVERALL 17/20
beersnob83 - Copenhagen, Denmark

1.3l gourd - Bolivian jungle hut. Pours thick resembling orange pancake batter. Zero carbonation. Slimy head containing flecks of grass and dust. No detectable hops. Aroma of sweet potatoes, saliva, cloves, sweat socks, motor oil, goat dung, citrus, tannins, new car interior. Mouth feel of soggy grape nuts, drywall joint compound. Finishes slightly bitter with hints of grass, anchovies, turpentine. Overall, an excellent brew, blows away the macrobrews; would buy again.