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Female Software Engineers May Be Even Scarcer Than We Thought

Posted by Soulskill on from the somewhere-between-too-few-and-not-enough dept.

itwbennett writes "According to data from the Bureau of Labor Statistics, in 2012 about 22% of computer programmers, software and web developers in the United States were female. That number comes from the Current Population Survey, which is based on interviews with 60,000 households. But Tracy Chou, an engineer at Pinterest, thinks the number is actually much lower than that. And last month she created a GitHub project to collect data on how many females are employed full-time writing or architecting software. Even at this early point, the data is striking: Based on data reported for 107 companies, 438 of 3,594 engineers (12%) are female. Here's how some well-known companies stack up."

11 of 445 comments (clear)

  1. And? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Male elementary school teachers may be scarcer than we thought.

    Who gives a shit?

    1. Re:And? by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 5, Insightful

      More importantly, this entire "study" is garbage. It is a self-selecting poll. So it doesn't "prove" there are fewer women, it just shows that men are more willing to fritter their time away on some stupid web poll.

    2. Re:And? by phoenix03 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      If by 'social inequality' you mean the increasing attacks on male rights in our culture, I agree.

    3. Re:And? by thesupraman · · Score: 5, Insightful

      In this particular case (male teachers) it is far more about the painting of all males as child molesters and rapists who cannot be trusted around children.

      But yes, the huge feminisation of many aspects of society, including schooling, is a major factor. Most male teachers end up seeing their views ignored,
      themselves patronised, and their care values bought in to question on a continual basis, basically to marginalize their position as a teacher.

      After all, 'think of the children!'

    4. Re:And? by K.+S.+Kyosuke · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Male elementary school teachers may be scarcer than we thought.

      After all, everyone knows there are only two kinds of people who love small children: female elementary school teachers and male pedophiles.

      --
      Ezekiel 23:20
    5. Re:And? by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 5, Insightful

      "After all, everyone knows there are only two kinds of people who love small children: female elementary school teachers and male pedophiles."

      I certainly hope you were being sarcastic. Because if we wanted to take your comment literally, then all fathers would be pedophiles.

      On the other hand, it has certainly seemed as though society has been willing to look askance at any male who pays any attention to children. This is a problem in our society that I noticed over 20 years ago.

      Hint, folks: treating an entire gender as though they are likely perverts is far worse than discrimination in employment. In fact, I would call that a perversion in itself.

    6. Re:And? by HeckRuler · · Score: 5, Insightful

      But... Are there any social inequalities when it comes to female software engineers? Is the man somehow keeping chicks out of coding classes? Is the ol' boys club not allowing cooties to spoil their source?

      You're looking at the end result and and claiming that there must be social inequality that lead to it. I understand this line of reasoning when it comes to the military, corporate CEO positions, and professional sports. They have a history of barring or diminishing women.

      But engineering? Software engineering? Dude, during my time in academia I saw them bend over BACKWARDS to get girls into their program. Between the scholarships, special clubs, awareness programs, and general reports like this that stated more women needed to go be geeks. Even culturally, we geeks LOVE geek girls. It's a thing.

      Now, it might be some sort of culturally imbued sexism. The sort that diverts men from being grade-school teachers and women from being truckers. There are plenty of counter-examples, but they're a minority. But it's not so much social inequality, so much as latent social norms and expectations. Breaking them doesn't get you burnt at the stake, but it might raise some eyebrows.

      If you want to stop the NFL from being assholes to women, or to break that glass ceiling when it comes to corporate CEO positions, I'm all for that and you have my full support. But if you want to shape culture so that there's no stigma with being a male nurse or a female software engineer, that's getting a little close to the sort of fascism that demands we think a certain way. Your way. Sorry, but you just can't steer culture like that.

      But hey, we need more female software engineers, because we need more software engineers. So I'm down with this sort of effort. But the lack of chicks around here has very little to do with social inequality. So don't get your panties in a twist.

    7. Re:And? by srichard25 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      At some point our society went from "leveling the playing the field" to "drastically changing the playing field to make the end-game scores the same". See, it doesn't matter that millions of years of evolution have resulted in some significant differences between males and females. It doesn't matter that there are already programs/scholarships to place to favor one group over another. It doesn't even matter if they can't find any specific examples of discrimination. The very fact that there are more of X than Y in a specific profession is reason enough to try to slant the playing field even further in an effort to make the end result the same.

    8. Re:And? by maharvey · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Yes, although this is eventually true of men too, from what I've seen.

      Many males, by the time they're in their 40s and 50s, have moved on from coding to architecture, management, multifunctional roles like customer engineering liasons, highly specialized SWE roles like JVM optimization, or have switched careers altogether. Hard to compete with the young kids who'll work 12 hours a day for pizza.

      In other words, by the time the women are ready to come back, the men (of the same age) aren't generally doing that work anymore either. So it wouldn't be appropriate for women to return to that role. The main difference is that men tend to stay with it longer, through the family years, where women bail sooner. And that's good. People gravitate to what they are intereted in, and where there is demand. It is a fact that women are better at raising young kids, and more importantly they want to do it more than men do. We all know it.

      The sexes are not interchangeable. They can fill the same roles, because as a rule humans are remarkably adaptable and intelligence goes a long way to compensate for gaps in natural talent. But often, one or the other will be better precisely because of talent or interest. The edge may be small but it is still significant.

      For example, I think women are better in roles where they are dealing with people, or in program manager type roles where there are a zillion little things to keep track of all at once. I don't understand why, but I often see this pattern, and I see that women often to a better job than men do in these roles. Women are better at staying home with small children; if society pushes them in that direction maybe its because there is good reason for it. Men are better at focused attention. You don't need studies to tell you this, it's everywhere, it's obvious to anyone with even a little intelligence or intuition. Of course women can be good software engineers, and depending on individual talent and interest, may be as good or better than men. Humans are varied. Some men excel at things that women are usually better at. And that's all good. But it is foolish and ignorant to pretend that there is no difference, that differences do not exist in the population as a whole.

      Talent is extremely hard to measure, but interest and motivation are very easy to see. Personally I think that interest is far more important than talent. It goes back to that large brain thing. We can learn to be what we want to be. And in my opinion, most women don't want to do software engineering. Why should I care? Why they be forced to do what they don't want to do, in the name of political correctness? I thought modern society was all about giving women choice?

    9. Re:And? by srichard25 · · Score: 5, Interesting

      On average men are taller than women. Does that mean every man is taller than every woman? Obviously not. But if there is a job that requires reaching tall heights, you can bet that there will be more men working in that position than women.

      http://www.webmd.com/balance/features/how-male-female-brains-differ
      "Boys generally demonstrate superiority over female peers in areas of the brain involved in math and geometry. These areas of the brain mature about four years earlier in boys than in girls, according to a recent study that measured brain development in more than 500 children. Researchers concluded that when it comes to math, the brain of a 12-year-old girl resembles that of an 8-year-old boy. Conversely, the same researchers found that areas of the brain involved in language and fine motor skills (such as handwriting) mature about six years earlier in girls than in boys."

  2. Women in general aren't introverted enough by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    Women in general aren't introverted enough. Most women refuse to live in a dark room with a slot in the door that someone stuffs food through. Without that you can't be a successful programmer.