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Supreme Court To Review Software Patents

New submitter chrylis writes "SCOTUSblog is reporting that the U.S. Supreme Court has accepted an appeal in Alice v. CLS Bank, a case in which the Federal Circuit ruled haphazardly that the particular patents in question were invalid but did not address the issue of software patents generally. 'The case will provide a new test of the Patent Act’s most basic provision — Section 101, which broadly outlines what kinds of inventions are patentable. One of the long-standing exceptions to the types of inventions mentioned in that section is that an abstract idea can never be patented. That issue arises frequently these days, especially with rapidly developing technology in computer software. The EFF wrote a summary of the issues in the case when it was before the Federal Circuit this spring. The case files are also available."

38 of 115 comments (clear)

  1. Great... by supremebob · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I'm so glad that the fate of software patents in the US is being left up to a bunch of old geezers who probably can't figure out how to publish their legal opinions online without the help of their IT department.

    1. Re:Great... by jonnythan · · Score: 4, Insightful

      If these guys were experts in software patents, they wouldn't need anyone to testify.

      Judges are not experts in anything except law. That's why they listen to other people make the case and explain the intricacies as the law applies to the subject. They do their research and they ask tough questions. That's their job.

    2. Re:Great... by jfengel · · Score: 2, Insightful

      And then they vote according to whichever way their ideological predisposition leads them. After that, they direct the clerks to figure out how to justify it, which sometimes requires some stretching but always seems to be possible, especially when you can bury it in a few dozen pages of dense legal text.

      I respect their learning, I really do, but they're called on to answer the cases for which there isn't a straightforward answer. (If there were, the lower courts would have it, and they wouldn't take the case.) They seem to serve, effectively, as tiebreakers, and they generally seem to do so according to their preconceptions rather than by finding novel insights. They don't have to have the most intelligent word, merely the final one.

    3. Re:Great... by JDG1980 · · Score: 4, Interesting

      And then they vote according to whichever way their ideological predisposition leads them.

      That's true for a wide variety of Supreme Court decisions, but doesn't actually seem to be the case in patent law. It's not unusual to see, for example, Antonin Scalia and Ruth Bader Ginsburg on the same side of a patent ruling, which almost never happens on the kind of politically charged cases that make front-page national news.

    4. Re:Great... by interkin3tic · · Score: 2

      Is there an ideal body you'd like the decision to be left up to? I mean, power corrupts, so any body with any say over something like this is going to be a little corrupted. Among the top of the three branches, the supreme court is probably the least fucked up at the moment. I'd prefer the EFF to be left in charge of the decision, but I'd wager that if they WERE in a position to have that power, they wouldn't be the same EFF we have right now, I think it would be full of industry lobbyists, or intentionally incompetent people, much like you see in the regulatory bodies and in the patent office specifically.

      Actually, as long as we're wishing, I wish that I was the one in charge of making the decision. My qualifications mainly include wasting time on slashdo and being not an old geezert. I trust I have your support for replacing the supreme court?

    5. Re:Great... by Aighearach · · Score: 4, Interesting

      The ideological dispositions in the legal community do not line up at all with political ones. On patents, the SCOTUS is fairly strongly on the side of rejecting patents on existing practices "on a computer." They refuse to throw out process and software patents categorically, but OTOH they don't really see any process patents they like.

      In the case here, the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Federal Circuit agreed the patent was invalid, but couldn't find a majority on a single theory of why. So the SCOTUS is going to be writing a new test for when software patents are valid. Based on past rulings by this court, a clear rule will almost certainly invalidate a lot of existing patents that are currently seen as being in gray areas.

    6. Re:Great... by VortexCortex · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I'm so glad that the fate of software patents in the US is being left up to a bunch of old geezers who probably can't figure out how to publish their legal opinions online without the help of their IT department.

      Indeed. I could agree to leave such important things to old troglodytes as long as they were also scientists: "Let us apply the law in this manner provisionally, and re-examine to test the hypothesis of its benefit after N years; We must test a decision to see, and also consider the null hypothesis, for laws that provide no benefit only tax our legal system. Let us rely not on case-law, but on observational evidence of intent to do malice or good."

      Sadly no such individuals exist in this reality. The quantum waveform has collapsed into the worst possible configuration: Scientists beg for funds while stodgy old farts rule the world. Note that there is ZERO evidence that patents and copyrights are actually "beneficial for society", we have only evidence that such protections are not required for innovation and profit in the markets that have no copyright or design patents: The automotive and fashion industries. Software Patents? HA! Prove Patents themselves aren't harmful first. It seems we need a medicine that not even The Doctor can prescribe.

    7. Re:Great... by Xtifr · · Score: 4, Informative

      You're confusing ideologies. Someone's position on the right or left is not going to have any bearing on their ideological positions about patents, because patents aren't a right/left issue. It's a different type of ideology. A more idiosyncratic ideology. But an ideology nonetheless.

      (Actually, I shouldn't say left/right, because dem/rep doesn't break down that way, but I'm simplifying for the sake of clarity.)

      That said, because this isn't tied to their political allegiances, they may all be more inclined to listen to the arguments rather than pre-emptively voting with their preconceptions. Not guaranteed, but much more likely than in some cases.

  2. Expect... by Hatta · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Expect the narrowest possible ruling, one which applies only to the case in front of the Supreme Court and maintains the status quo for all other software patents.

    --
    Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
    1. Re:Expect... by surmak · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Expect yet another 5-4 ruling in favor of big business.

      Which big business? Where are big businesses interests on both sides of this issue.

    2. Re:Expect... by melikamp · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I'd expect this much if anything. SCOTUS cannot fix the software patents. It is not even clear what a "software patent" is. IANAL, but the way I understand the patent law, there is absolutely no difference. If you have a gizmo that does A, B, and C, then you can patent it, and how exactly it meets these claims in terms of technology is irrelevant. The patent law itself is oppressive: it infringes on our right to free expression, while providing no discernible benefit to the public. Only the lawmakers can fix this clusterfuck, and they can do so trivially, by gradually shrinking the protection term, giving the manufacturers some time to adapt. But they, of course, lack the will to do so, since they respect the opinions of plutocrats way more than those of the general public.

      RMS also advocates a way to get to the same goal in discrete steps, by making patents unenforceable in certain fields (like the medical field or the general purpose computing field). The precedents exist: the surgeons are allowed to ignore patents while curing people. This is much better than defining "software patents" within the law, since any such definition will probably be circumvented by technological means. Rent-seekers could simply inject enough non-software payload into a device and patent it anyway.

    3. Re:Expect... by Dynedain · · Score: 4, Informative

      If you have a gizmo that does A, B, and C, then you can patent it, and how exactly it meets these claims in terms of technology is irrelevant.

      Actually how a gizmo does A,B,C is critically important for a patent. As another device can do A,B,C, but in a different way, and it would not violate the patent.

      The overall problem with software patents is they define the What (A,B,C) but not the How. So any implementation that accomplishes goals A,B,C is suddenly in violation.

      --
      I'm out of my mind right now, but feel free to leave a message.....
  3. Obviousness by Jayfield · · Score: 5, Insightful

    IAAPA (I am a patent agent)- My take on the matter is that software patents pass the threshold for patent eligibility, but not for patentability, which is quite different. Most software-implemented subject matter is certainly patent-eligible, but ought to be struck down under 35 U.S.C. 103 (non-obviousness). Courts have said that 101 is a threshold inquiry, and in my opinion I don't see why slashdotters would have a problem with striking down software patents not because as a class of subject matter they are ineligible, but because the vast majority are obvious.

    1. Re:Obviousness by phantomfive · · Score: 3, Insightful

      In the 60s and 70s, various companies were developing high-availability software (process pairs, redundant storage, transactions, ACID, etc). Each of them thought they had developed something unique, and as a result tried to hide it from their competitors.

      As a result, progress in the field went a lot slower than it had to, with plenty of reproduced effort. That was in the days before software was eligible for patent, so there is definitely a case to be made that (non-obvious) software patents can be helpful.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    2. Re:Obviousness by skarphace · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Is it still non-obvious when two groups of people come up with the same software?

      --
      Bullish Machine Tzar
    3. Re:Obviousness by bob_super · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Bad example.
      They all got what they wanted through longer effort.
      Under software patents, the first would get there a hair before the others, and somehow believe that the others owe it money because he got there first. It works when your trireme gets to a new land first, because there only one land. But if the others were going to get there and didn't copy you, then there is no reason to claim that they should owe you money for doing something first.

      There should be a test, not for obviousness, but for "natural result of the engineering process under the current environment".

    4. Re:Obviousness by phantomfive · · Score: 2

      Is it still non-obvious when two groups of people come up with the same software?

      It really depends on how long they have to work on it before they figure it out.

      My point is, we need to balance the benefits of patents (disclosure) with the detriments (short term artificial monopoly). I don't think this is particularly controversial, the real question comes with asking how to balance them. I don't claim to know the answer, and probably no one knows for sure, but setting the level of patentability at a certain level of non-obviousness (with non-obvious being raised to a higher level than it is now) seems like a reasonable thing to try.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    5. Re:Obviousness by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Bell Labs got a patent on the setuid bit in Unix way back when (filed 1972, granted 1979) by describing a hardware implementation of it. They then released the patent to the public domain.

      Neither of those things would happen today.

    6. Re:Obviousness by queazocotal · · Score: 2

      Patents are to trade the private good of being able to exploit your idea as a monopoly for the public good of releasing that idea to the world after a time.

      One very obvious point is that If it would take longer to research and find a patented idea than for a skilled engineer in the field, facing the same problem to reinvent that patent - there is no public good in having the idea released after a time.

      I would go so far as to say that no patent should ever be given for any invention where it is reinvent-able by someone unfamiliar with the patent who is skilled in the field and facing the same problem in under about a month of lab time.

    7. Re:Obviousness by firewrought · · Score: 3, Informative

      We need to balance the benefits of patents (disclosure) with the detriments (short term artificial monopoly).

      Have you read modern patents? They consist of dense legalese that's of no practical value to technologists. And twenty years is not "short term" in computing... our industry proceeds much faster than that.

      --
      -1, Too Many Layers Of Abstraction
    8. Re:Obviousness by ZombieBraintrust · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Software developer's don't read patents. Software patents are only read by lawyers. These patents are legal self gratification.

    9. Re:Obviousness by InsightfulPlusTwo · · Score: 2

      It can be non-obvious. Both Newton and Leibnitz developed calculus around the same time (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leibniz%E2%80%93Newton_calculus_controversy). More recently, Diffie-Hellman key exchange was independently but secretly developed by Ellis, Cocks and Williamson around the same time, but secretly because they were working for British intelligence (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diffie%E2%80%93Hellman_key_exchange). Do you think those things are obvious?

      --
      I felt bad for the man who had no signature, until I met a man who had no comment.
    10. Re:Obviousness by bob_super · · Score: 2

      I apologize for only having experience.
      Let me hire a graduate student to write it down so that it becomes "data".

  4. Some background by UnknowingFool · · Score: 5, Informative

    The case involves Alice Corporation who holds four patents originating in the 1990s of which was for "a computerized system for creating and exchanging financial instruments such as derivatives." These patents were challenged by CLS Bank International in 2007. The district court ruled summarily for CLS in that none of patents were valid. The Federal Circuit initially reversed the lower court; however, the full panel (en banc) voted 7 out of 10 to affirm the district court but also issued 5 separate concurring and dissenting opinions.

    This confusion was noted by the Electronic Frontier Foundation in its amicus brief:

    " . . . the Federal Circuit has failed to implement a workable standard—or, frankly, any standard at all—as to what computer- and Internet-implemented inventions are patentable. The resulting legal instability has driven up the already-ballooning costs of patent litigation . . ."

    In my opinion, it appears that main patent simply added "on the computer" to an existing process, namely in an business transaction between two parties, there is a third party that ensures that payment is made and is facilitated. The computer made the transaction faster and more automated as noted by Judge Lourie in his opinion.

    “simply appending generic computer functionality to lend speed or efficiency to the performance of an otherwise abstract concept does not meaningfully limit claim scope for purposes of patent eligibility."

    --
    Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
    1. Re:Some background by s.petry · · Score: 2, Interesting

      In my opinion, it appears that main patent simply added "on the computer" to an existing process, namely in an business transaction between two parties, there is a third party that ensures that payment is made and is facilitated. The computer made the transaction faster and more automated as noted by Judge Lourie in his opinion.

      That is the heart of the Business Process patent laws. It's not about "invention", it's about 'ownership' of ideas. I can extend any patent you own, as long as I pay you royalty for your idea. This is one of the main reasons these laws are so bad!

      You patent "2+2=4"

      I come back and patent (2+2=4) - 1 = 3, acknowledge your original patent and will give you 50% of what I make on my extension of your patent.

      Now anyone that uses "2+4=4" can be sued, but also anyone using my extension can be sued. The best part is that we make enough money to sue anyone that uses a result of 4 or 3 and put them out of business for potential violation of our patents.

      Nobody should be amazed at how these patents have fucked up both the economy and IT industry as a whole. We gave the same exact arguments when Bush the first was trying to pass the patent laws, and they were passed regardless of what experts said. (Follow the money on that one).

      What is amazing, is that it has taken this long to make it to the Supreme Court for ruling.

      --

      -The wise argue that there are few absolutes, the fool argues that there are no probabilities.

  5. I miss Groklaw for stuff like this. by sconeu · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Fuck you very much, NSA.

    --
    General Relativity: Space-time tells matter where to go; Matter tells space-time what shape to be.
  6. Selectivity by Okian+Warrior · · Score: 2, Informative

    I'm so glad that the fate of software patents in the US is being left up to a bunch of old geezers who probably can't figure out how to publish their legal opinions online without the help of their IT department.

    Don't worry - they'll render a decision that only affects the narrowest possible circumstances, "leaving the subject open" to further litigation on other slight differences in scope.

    The supremes don't actually rule on the big issues any more - in modern times, it's all subtle refinements and clarifications.

  7. I'm not holding my breath by rsilvergun · · Score: 3, Interesting

    the current Supreme Court doesn't have a good track record of siding with the 'Little Guy' (*cough*Cittzen's United *cough* Voters Rights Act*). Maybe it's just the libtard in me but I don't have high hopes were going to see an entire class of 'property' invalidated... :(

    --
    Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
    1. Re:I'm not holding my breath by UnknowingFool · · Score: 2

      Well in this case many businesses large and small are affected. The larger ones can afford to amass a portfolio for defensive purposes. The smaller ones cannot. However the mutually assured destruction strategy is only a deterrent for companies that actually make products. It is less effective against patent trolls.

      --
      Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
  8. Re:Did I imagine this ... by Rob+Riggs · · Score: 2

    IANAL. Source code is the copyrightable creative expression of a software engineer that may infringe on process patents once compiled and run on a computer.

    --
    the growth in cynicism and rebellion has not been without cause
  9. more credit by dlenmn · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I'd give them somewhat more credit than that. They definitely made the right call in Molecular Pathology v. Myriad Genetics (ruling that genes couldn't be patented), even though they had no knowledge about biology.

    The fact that they're willing to hear this case makes me somewhat optimistic; if they truly didn't understand or care about software patents, they wouldn't have gotten involved. The worst they can do is maintain the status quo, which is what would happen if they didn't intervene.

    1. Re:more credit by dlenmn · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I should add that this is definitely the best shot we have at dealing with software patents.

      It's clear that, because of corporate interests, the legislative branch won't really fix things. (Although it sounds like a few congresscritters have their heads screwed on straight, they're definitely in the minority.)

      The executive branch doesn't have the authority to fix things, and it probably wouldn't even if it could. (See the current FFC chair.)

      The judicial branch is the least corruptible branch of the federal government; the important judges have life appointments, so they don't have to run for reelection, and they're not total morons either -- unlike many politicians. (Say what you will about lawyers and law school, but graduating from Harvard, Yale, or Columbia law school is a valid not-a-total-moron test.)

      Here's to hoping...

  10. Obviousness is not obvious by Press2ToContinue · · Score: 2

    I would love to agree with you, because to me they are all obvious. But the problem lies in the test itself - it is not at all measurable. It is based entirely on opinion, and thus it varies based on the particular "expert" testimony. And what is obvious this year may not have been obvious last year, and that makes it un-pin-downable to me. To me it is a losing battle to try to strike down patent by patent on obviousness. They can go either way, and so it is a never-ending battle, and the lawyers get richer. The only realistic way to approach obviousness is to argue its fallibility, bias-proneness, and slippery-slopedness in general, and strike it down as an untennable test, which must be either replaced with an unbiased, independently-reproducible test, or the system must be revoked as a whole as unfair.

    And since you are obliviously experience and open-minded about this, what do you think of that approach?

    --
    Sent from my ENIAC
    1. Re:Obviousness is not obvious by Theaetetus · · Score: 2

      I would love to agree with you, because to me they are all obvious. But the problem lies in the test itself - it is not at all measurable. It is based entirely on opinion, and thus it varies based on the particular "expert" testimony. And what is obvious this year may not have been obvious last year, and that makes it un-pin-downable to me.

      Yes, but "obvious" doesn't mean legally what you think it means: it's a legal conclusion, like "guilty", with a specific definition. Just like we say someone is guilty or a patent is obvious, legally, it's not true unless the government has proven beyond a reasonable doubt or without a clear error, respectively, that the person actually committed the crime or the inventor didn't invent something obvious.

      And there actually is an objective test for obviousness (and I'm happy to talk about why or why not it's a good one) that is crafted to avoid hindsight: specifically, the USPTO can show that a patent is obvious is every element of a claim is taught or suggested by one or more pieces of prior art, alone or in combination. So, if your patent claims A+B+C+D, and one piece of prior art shows A+B, another shows C, and a third shows D, the patent claim is obvious. But if the art just shows A, B, and C, but no D, then it's not, even if you think that D is stupid obvious. The test, however, rules out that conclusion, if you can't actually show that anyone had ever thought of D before - maybe you think it's stupid obvious only because you read the patent? If D was never mentioned before elsewhere, maybe it's not obvious, even if in hindsight it looks simple. Maybe the solution is brilliant in its elegance and simplicity.

  11. Re:fuck yes by icebike · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Contrary to Judge Moore's worries (second link in the article) this would open the floodgates of development of software, and revitalize the industry. SCOTUS has had years of watching the mess this made in industry, and the endless litigation over trivial ideas.

    They may well overrule CLS Bank.

    No longer could a company sit on a minor IDEA, cast into code, and then patented simply because it was code. They would have to continue to innovate, and perhaps market a product instead of launching lawsuit after lawsuit. Look around at the software patents that are holding back progress on a number of fronts. Just try to come up with a new Codec (like VP8) and watch the trolls band together (MPEG LA) to create a patent pool to go after your product.

    I suggest the Audio and Video industries alone would make more progress in the first 4 years after striking down software patents than they have for the last 20 years.

    Moore worry that no research on new computerized functions would take place because they couldn't be patented is about as well founded as saying no one would invent a new recipe for Chicken Soup because it couldn't be patented.

    --
    Sig Battery depleted. Reverting to safe mode.
  12. Re:fuck yes by icebike · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Really? Because as soon as VP8 was hinted at, and before it was actually released, MPEG LA immediately put out a call to form patent pool to attack it. BEFORE its specs were even released.

    Does that sound like a group of people simply seeking an easier way to cross-license? Or does it seem like a Troll?

    It took the US DOJ looking into MPEG LA's practices before they backed down.

    --
    Sig Battery depleted. Reverting to safe mode.
  13. Obviousness is tough by Theaetetus · · Score: 3, Interesting

    IAAPA (I am a patent agent)- My take on the matter is that software patents pass the threshold for patent eligibility, but not for patentability, which is quite different. Most software-implemented subject matter is certainly patent-eligible, but ought to be struck down under 35 U.S.C. 103 (non-obviousness). Courts have said that 101 is a threshold inquiry, and in my opinion I don't see why slashdotters would have a problem with striking down software patents not because as a class of subject matter they are ineligible, but because the vast majority are obvious.

    IAAPatent Attorney, and I think you're absolutely right - many of these claims that get struck down under 101 should really have been struck down under 35 USC 102 (novelty) or 103 (obviousness), but that requires searching for prior art and making a prima facie case, and as you know, that's haaaaaaard. It's a lot easier to simply say "I'm sure there's art out there for it... but rather than look for it, I'll just wave my hands and say 'abracadbr- er, abstract idea' and then I can dismiss this case, and the outcome is correct, even if the process is backwards." And, because many Slashdotters are pragmatic engineerin' folks, they frequently care about the outcome more than the process: as long as Mr. Bilski doesn't get his hedge fund patent, then who cares whether it's rejected under 101, 102, 103, 112, or some other high-falutin' number?

    But the problem is, part of pragmatism is predictability: if we can't tell ahead of time whether some patent is statutorily valid or invalid, then, pragmatically, how do you make business decisions? It'd be like writing a program, having the compiler tell you it won't run, but never being given any clues or indications as to where your error was. The result is the same - the program crashed - but it doesn't give you any ability to write proper programs in the future, or predict ahead of time whether a program will fail or not.

  14. Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership by manu0601 · · Score: 2

    USA and EU will probably have to harmonize patent law for the Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership. It should normally be legislator's job, but sometimes it does not work, and ourt have to do the job.

    For instance, EU countries signed a treaty in 1974 saying that computer programs are not patentable, and as a result they all have this provision in state laws. That did not prevent patent offices to grant software patent in EU, that just makes them difficult to enforce.