The Yin and Yang of Hour of Code & Immigration Reform

theodp writes "The weeklong Hour of Code kicks off tomorrow, with Mark Zuckerberg and Bill Gates doing their part to address a declared nationwide CS crisis by ostensibly teaching the nation's schoolchildren how to code. But a recent NY Times Op-Ed by economist Paul Collier criticizing Zuckerberg's FWD.us PAC as self-serving advocacy (echoing earlier criticism) serves as a reminder that Zuckerberg and Gates' Code.org and Hour of Code involvement is the Yin to their H-1B visa lobbying Yang. The two efforts have been inextricably linked together for Congress, if not for the public. And while Zuckerberg argues it's 'the right thing to do', Collier argues that there are also downsides to the tech giants' plans to shift more bright, young, enterprising people from the poorest countries to the richest. 'An open door for the talented would help Facebook's bottom line,' Collier concludes, 'but not the bottom billion.'"

Comments

Parasites

[Anonymous Coward]

Uses complex offshore shell companies in order to not pay taxes to fund roads, schools, community, civilization.
Wont train Americans (or anyone else) in IT, actively seeking to import labor again that someone else paid for their education

how is this company even got a voice in America? in the old days they would be run out of town or worse

today ? fuck you you i got mine and there is nothing you can do to stop me

Re:Parasites

[ShanghaiBill]

Uses complex offshore shell companies in order to not pay taxes to fund roads, schools, community, civilization.

They pay plenty of taxes, including payroll taxes, sales taxes, and taxes on dividends and capital gains paid by their shareholders. They only avoid income tax. But corporate income tax comes out of the pockets of some combination of their employees, customers, and shareholders. If you think employees should pay more, then raise payroll taxes. If you think customers should pay more, then raise sales taxes. If you think shareholders should pay more then raise taxes on dividends and capital gains. Any of those would make far more sense than continuing a poorly designed corporate income tax is easily avoided, collects little revenue, and pushes jobs and investment out of America.

When You Hear Talk About Any Reform

[cervesaebraciator]

Consider the interests of the would-be reformer.

Re:When You Hear Talk About Any Reform

[Taco Cowboy]

Consider the interests of the would-be reformer

Apparently that economist, Mr. Paul Collier, doesn't even have any braincell to think.

From the TFA:

Collier argues that there are also downsides to the tech giants' plans to shift more bright, young, enterprising people from the poorest countries to the richest

MOST of those young, bright and enterprising people from the POOREST COUNTRIES won't get ANY chance to tap on their potential in their own country, and I am speaking as someone who had been through exactly that scenario.

When I came out of China, back in the early 1970's, China was in a VERY TERRIBLE STATE.

Millions of ordinary citizens had died of hunger.

Social upheaval were everywhere - goons waving that little red book were ransacking/looting people's houses they accused of "anti-revolutionary".

If I WERE to stay in China, I had only two choices: Either joined those goons in doing all the WRONG THINGS they had been doing, or to stay absolutely low key, go into a remote village somewhere, and work as a farm hand.

But I got out of China and ended up in America.

In America, I got to further my education (I already had high school education back in China), I got to learn many things from many very brainy people who came to America from all over the world, I got the chance to participate in the American dream, I got to start my own companies, I got to sell my companies for huge profit and re-invest the monies into even more startups.

I could NEVER do any of that had I stuck in China.

Nowadays I am helping many young, bright and very enterprising people in poor countries in Asia, Africa and South America, by either inviting them to become my co-workers in the companies that I own (full or part), or I invest in their startups.

That Mr. Paul Collier is nothing but a talking head.

Most of the poor countries in the world simply do not have the infrastructure to allow those young, bright and enterprising people to do what they can do.

Most of the governments in those poor countries are mired in unbelievably mountains of bureaucratic red tapes, red tapes that do nothing but making the lives of their own citizens even that much more miserable.

I came from one of those poor countries, I know what was/is happening.

I am not saying that Bill Gates and/or Mark Zuckerberg are right to do whatever they do, but at least they are offering many young, bright and enterprising people from poor countries A CHANCE TO PROVE THEIR WORTH TO THE WORLD, and also to themselves.

As for Mr. Paul Collier, other than being a talking head, what did/does he do to help out those young, bright and enterprising people in the poorest countries in the world ?

Re:When You Hear Talk About Any Reform

[Anonymous Coward]

Nowadays I am helping many young, bright and very enterprising people in poor countries in Asia, Africa and South America, by either inviting them to become my co-workers in the companies that I own (full or part), or I invest in their startups.

Are you helping them IN the poor countries in Asia, Africa, and South America -- or are you bringing them to America and "helping" them here?

If all you ever do is bring people here, how the hell are the poor countries ever going to become anything other than poor? Build things THERE. Don't bring them here, to take opportunities from American citizens. Yeah, yeah, you have your little pity stories to tell about poverty and oppression, and I'm sure it's all true. But I care about that, and your "young, bright, and very enterprising people" from all over the world, to the exact same extent you care about anyone in America -- not at all.

The American Dream was supposed to be FOR Americans. Make your own damn dreams. No, seriously -- make all those other countries WORTH staying in, and living in, and being in. Or can you only have your dreams here in America, with the infrastructure paid for by Americans, with the legal systems built and maintained and paid for by Americans, with the society and ideals fought and paid and died for by Americans?

Re:When You Hear Talk About Any Reform

[king neckbeard]

Immigrants are an integral part of the American Dream and much of the success America has seen. Also, having success in the US doesn't mean that they can't come back at some point and also try to help their native country.

Re:When You Hear Talk About Any Reform

[Anonymous Coward]

The issue isn't whether the best and the brightest from overseas should be able to fill the gaps in the demand for skilled workers. The issue is whether they should be doing it through the flawed H1-B program. If Zuckerberg and Gates were arguing for a streamlined path to citizenship or even green cards for workers with skills that are at a shortage in the US, that would be a different matter. But the H1-B allows companies to pay 60%-70% of what they would pay a citizen for 3-6 years before they get sent home.

If the workers could become US citizens, they could build their lives here and be active members of the community invested in our collective future. But the tech giants want disposable talent to use and send home. It's short-sighted and will ensure that we have a lot more foreign competition as skilled talent leaves at the end of their H1-Bs and build competing technology in their home countries.

Re:When You Hear Talk About Any Reform

[artor3]

Oh for fuck's safe, "The American Dream was supposed to be FOR Americans"?? Which Americans were those? Are the Irish and Italians and Jews allowed to prosper, or is success only for the WASPs? Anyone who's willing to follow our laws and pay their taxes should be welcome. They certainly contribute more than the tax-dodging, money-laundering elite.

There are plenty of American coders

[Anonymous Coward]

They just don't want to play American wages.

Re:Two of the most immoral people

[Okian Warrior]

yeah spending hundreds of millions of dollars eradicating diseases like malaria in poor countries is so immoral...oh right but you only care that Windows is closed source.

To be fair, Gates got that money by breaking the law. His unfair competition resulted worldwide adoption of an insecure system, causing untold hardship across the industry (against more robust systems with few security flaws).

Should we cheer Al Capone for the good he was doing for Chicago?

Ten years of unemployment as a software engineer

[GoodNewsJimDotCom]

I'm just getting off about ten years of unemployment as a software engineer. I'm competent, I graduated from Carnegie Mellon University, and my major pass time at home is programming. For whatever reason I couldn't seem to find a job. I put out thousands of resumes on monster and Dice, but had less than ten interviews in ten years. Thankfully I just recently got a job doing hardware. It is just weird what this world can do to you. No matter how much talent you have, or how hard you work, if no one wants to give you a chance, the world is a rough place. I think lots of people are seeing this today with the lack of jobs for even talented individuals.

Anyway, that is my point. There are plenty of talented and educated people in this country. The tech companies just don't want to pay a fair wage in a regular display of union busting. I know my story might be on the edge of a bellcurve, but I'm just saying I understand personally what it is like to never get a chance at a job. If you don't watch, it can grind into your very self worth.

Blue collar society

[Required Snark]

The goal is to make every job in the US blue collar with no benefits. This is not hyperbole or metaphor.

I have friend with decades of film production experience and he is de facto unemployable. The jobs are outsourced, or filled by 1H-B holders. He can't find work outside the film industry because he is "overqualified". When he applies for retail like Target or Starbucks, they don't want him because younger workers are easier to push around and abuse.

If you think that you are immune because you are "a professional", just wait. Get 10 or 15 years of experience and watch that become the reason that you won't be hired.

Meanwhile, Wall Street hits new highs on a regular basis. There is a direct causal relationship going on here. The wealth going to the rich is being siphoned from the rest of society. If things don't change the US will have a economic/social structure like the Spanish speaking part of the Americas. Don't be surprised when this happens, you had plenty of warning.

Re: Two of the most immoral people

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually up until the point of the gates foundation, Bill Gates was the ultimate Scrooge. He gae away not one penny, it wasn't until he was called out on that very fact that the Gates foudration was formed.

Even much of the supposedly altruistic efforts also seem to have an angle:
http://m.slashdot.org/story/171367

http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2012/07/31/bill-gates-corporate-profit-vs-humanity.aspx

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Gates#Philanthropy

Re:Two of the most immoral people

[king neckbeard]

MS had already engaged in some serious antitrust behavior circa 1990, before they were anywhere near the behemoth they are today.

what a load of crap, Windows may not have been the most secure system but against the horrible burden of IBM and the infancy and general lack of usability of GNU/Linux, Windows was the obvious choice and a choice made by people who were indeed free to choose. To this day some people would rather pretend they were completely helpless and at the mercy of big bad Microsoft than admit they made a poor choice.

Have you considered that the lack of viable competition might have been the result of robust set of anti-competitive practices? Also, by grossly oversimplifying things like you did, you forget that things weren't all that simple. MS was strong-arming OEMs if they dared to install competing OS's or browsers, and they ignored standards in IE while actively breaking compatibility of plugins.

Re:Ten years of unemployment as a software enginee

[csumpi]

OK, I'll bite No way you go 10 years unemployed as a software engineer in the US. Unless:

a. you are lazy
b. you are incompetent
c. you printed the website you have in your sig on your resume

But most likely, it's just all BS.

Tea Party welcomes LEGAL immigrants

[SuperKendall]

Every time an H1B story is posted here, we get a lot of Tea Party-type comments from people

No you don't. I've been reading Slashdot for years and have never seen Tea Party members of any kind post against LEGAL immigration, which is healthy. In fact most of us stick up for H1B guys because we know a lot of them... it's the liberals who cry that H1B are stealing jobs from America and need to be banned.

The problem the Tea Party has is with illegal immigrants, which generally are not nearly as desirable or productive members of society (and who would expect they would be when the very act of coming here starts out by committing a crime?)

It's criminal how you and others cannot seem to distinguish between legal and illegal immigration, which are vastly different things.

Re:Ten years of unemployment as a software enginee

[Xest]

He's not making fun of him for having religious beliefs, he's making fun of him for being completely oblivious to the fact that maybe he's unemployable because he's suffering delusions.

It's one thing to believe in some god, I think most people have no problem with that. It's not my cup of tea, but each to there own. However, it's a whole other thing to believe he speaks to you. That requires you to hear voices in your head. That requires you to be actually clinically insane.

People who are clinically insane tend not to be the best workers.

You'd have had a point if you'd instead talked about the fact we shouldn't joke about people who have mental health issues, then you'd be right.