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Researchers Use Electroconvulsive Therapy To Disrupt Recall of Nasty Events

ananyo writes "In the film Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind, unhappy lovers undergo an experimental brain treatment to erase all memories of each other from their minds. No such fix exists for real-life couples, but researchers report in Nature Neuroscience that a targeted medical intervention helps to reduce specific negative memories in patients who are depressed. The technique, called electroconvulsive (ECT) or electroshock therapy, induces seizures by passing current into the brain through electrode pads placed on the scalp. Despite its sometimes negative reputation, ECT is an effective last-resort treatment for severe depression, and is used today in combination with anaesthesia and muscle relaxants. Marijn Kroes, a neuroscientist at Radboud University Nijmegen in the Netherlands, and his colleagues found that by strategically timing ECT bursts, they could target and disrupt patients' memory of a disturbing episode."

22 of 96 comments (clear)

  1. Erase all button by flyingfsck · · Score: 3, Informative

    The problem is that this therapy tends to erase all memories. It is a very blunt instrument, just slightly better than a lobotomy.

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    1. Re:Erase all button by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Funny

      The problem is that this therapy tends to erase all memories. It is a very blunt instrument, just slightly better than a lobotomy.

      I don't recall having any problems with ... Oh wait!

    2. Re:Erase all button by cold+fjord · · Score: 2

      The alternative would be Insulin Coma Therapy, at least for some disorders. Not practiced in the West any more.

      Sources: Insulin Coma Therapy

      The famous mathematician John Nash (depicted in A Beautiful Mind*) was treated with it.

      If you suffer from Nash's malady, don't read my current sig.

      * Book , movie , trailer , documentary , DVD.

      --
      much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
    3. Re:Erase all button by Sla$hPot · · Score: 2

      > It is a very blunt instrument, just slightly better than a lobotomy.

      True.
      You could also argue that it is similar to using a heavy rubber hammer to stir up all the grey matter.
      Nobody knows what actually happens when flashing someones scalp with thousands of volts.
      Changes to the brain tissue will occur at some level. IQ and memory drops significantly (over 10% to 20%), but the actual brain damage is not visible.
      The fact that ECT is being used today is sickening. However it is difficult to control this kind of malpractice.
      How can you measure how receptive one individual is compared to the "norm"?
      How do you control the mad doctor who blasts his patients with experimentally insane voltages?
      Seems like the cranks are out int the open again, free to experiment on innocent victims. Just like in the sixties and seventies.
      Perhaps ECT should be allowed only by doctors that can pass +100points on a stand IQ test after taking a series of hard ECT doses over a couple of weeks.
      I would love to listen to someone trying to advocate for ECT, backed up by reasonable arguments after such a "treatment".
      It is doubtful that anyone could do that without drifting of into oblivion during such an argument. It might fun watching though.
      How many doctors actually take their own medicine?

    4. Re:Erase all button by dmr001 · · Score: 2
      ECT gets a bad rap because it looks sadistic and no one quite knows how it works. On the other hand, it's effective - more effective than most other forms of depression treatment, and has the benefit of working when nothing else does. (Remission is severe depression is 70-90% with ECT vs 30% with a typical SSRI pill.) I've had patients who desperately wanted to be dead because each passing moment was filled with unbearable psychic pain, who after 3 treatments of ECT (with pulses lasting a few milliseconds) were smiling and chipper. (Albeit with some unpredictable holes in their memories.)

      Moreover, contrary to One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest, modern treatment insists patients have voluntary, informed consent. This data isn't exactly hard to come by - Google ECT PubMed. In the US, unfortunately, ECT can be hard to come by, given attitudes such as that expressed by the parent poster, and I suspect reimbursement isn't that great (patients get general anesthesia for a few minutes, which isn't cheap, but US Medicare reimbursement for psychiatry is notoriously poor such that most psychiatrists don't take Medicare).

  2. Seems like a mixed blessing by Akratist · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I can understand that something like this would be a boon to veterans with PTSD or survivors of rape or other violent episodes. However, I wonder if this will eventually get more widespread and become used for trivial things, like removing memories of a bad breakup or other parts of life which might be painful, but tolerable. It has been noted here and there before that bouts of depression have made people more artistically productive, but this can disappear with medication...if we likewise remove the negative memories, are we going to start missing heuristics that make us work to improve our lives?

    1. Re:Seems like a mixed blessing by PolygamousRanchKid+ · · Score: 2

      However, I wonder if this will eventually get more widespread and become used for trivial things, like removing memories of a bad breakup or other parts of life which might be painful, but tolerable.

      So . . . you nicht die NSA und Obamacare liken? Ve haf vays . . . af maken you forgetten!

      --
      Schroedinger's Brexit: The UK is both in and out of the EU at the same time!
    2. Re:Seems like a mixed blessing by Akratist · · Score: 2

      I'm aware of what it involves. I'm also aware that we continually improve and refine these processes, to where they become less invasive and far more convenient and comfortable. Consider, for example, the various psychiatric medications available on the market that are increasingly prescribed for trivial reasons. Modern America is a culture obsessed with escaping discomfort and unpleasantness at all costs, so it is reasonable to expect that something like this -- if refined and convenient enough -- would become over-prescribed as well.

  3. That's normal! by nospam007 · · Score: 2

    "Researchers Use Electroconvulsive Therapy To Disrupt Recall of Nasty Events"

    That therapy is so nasty, that all other nasty events in the past are dimmed in comparison.

    1. Re:That's normal! by Chrisq · · Score: 2

      "Researchers Use Electroconvulsive Therapy To Disrupt Recall of Nasty Events"

      That therapy is so nasty, that all other nasty events in the past are dimmed in comparison.

      Don't worry - they can just zap you again!

  4. Re:Nah. by lxs · · Score: 2

    Which worked so well after WWII. But don't worry. This time we know what we're doing. Really. Trust us. At least we're not using drugs. Drugs are bad mkay?

  5. Death for 1 in 25,000 treatments? by silas_moeckel · · Score: 2

    Seems rather dangerous to me.

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    No sir I dont like it.
    1. Re:Death for 1 in 25,000 treatments? by hey! · · Score: 3, Informative

      Death rate from tonsillectomy: 1/15,000
      Death rate from colonoscopy: 1/17,000
      Deaths from general anesthesia: estimate vary, but roughly 1/100,000

      --
      Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
  6. Adverse effects by SternisheFan · · Score: 5, Interesting
    From Wikipedia: Liz Spikol, the senior contributing editor of Philadelphia Weekly, wrote of her ECT in 1996

    "Not only was the ECT ineffective, it was incredibly damaging to my cognitive functioning and memory. But sometimes it's hard to be sure of yourself when everyone 'credible' — scientists, ECT docs, researchers — are telling you that your reality isn't real. How many times have I been told my memory loss wasn't due to ECT but to depression? How many times have I been told that, like a lot of other consumers, I must be perceiving this incorrectly? How many times have people told me that my feelings of trauma related to the ECT are misplaced and unusual? It's as if I was raped and people kept telling me not to be upset—that it wasn't that bad."

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electroconvulsive_therapy#Individual_negative_accounts

  7. They still offer ECT for depression by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Funny

    I had a severe clinical depression and was hospitalized for a while. I shared a room with a guy who was undergoing ECT and he was a complete zombie.

    To the doctors complete surprise I declined the ECT offer. They didn't quite understand my point, that I was the mad scientist. Not them.

  8. Re:One more hollow justification for ECT. by JustOK · · Score: 2

    Newspapers and magazines are dying. They cost too much these days.

    --
    rewriting history since 2109
  9. Why use a blunt instrument? by __aaltlg1547 · · Score: 2

    When there is a method that can be used in a much more targeted fashion?

    http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/09/130910140941.htm

    In the near future, it could be as simple as take a pill, interview an analyst about your most disturbing memories and be free of them. The trick is not to recall anything you don't want to forget before the pill wears off.

  10. Clockwork orange by gmuslera · · Score: 2

    It probably can be used to change people behaviour and even (political) thinking. Just don't use it to make people hate Ludwig van music.

  11. Re:Related Article by rvw · · Score: 2

    A similar study showed that ECT was 73.4% effective in removing memories regarding previous health insurance policies .

    I see tea parties coming up, instead of those botox parties. Having a fun afternoon and getting rid of all those nasty evolution theories in your head.

  12. ECT saved a close relative's life ... by cascadingstylesheet · · Score: 2

    ... nothing was working to turn her severe depression. Multiple suicide attempts. ECT literally saved her life.

    Yes, it had sucky side effects. But she is alive. And a lot happier now.

  13. Rape and PTSD by ScottCooperDotNet · · Score: 2

    So rape and PTSD are just learning experiences?

  14. Re:Electric soma... by Opportunist · · Score: 2

    There is a difference between remembering bad things to learn from them and turning them into something pathological.

    To give you an example, a normal person would maybe walk across the road when the traffic light shows red and gets almost run over by a car. He will learn that it's not a smart thing to cross the road when the traffic light shows red.

    The pathological "lesson" from it would be that it is dangerous to cross the road. These people do not learn from the experience in the normal sense. They do of course get the message that they should heed the traffic light, but they go way overboard with it. Not only do they blame themselves for everything that they did wrong, but for everything that did GO wrong. That the traffic light was red, that the driver did not watch out, and that's just the start. Things get added to the memory to make the experience even worse over time.

    That's not really a healthy learning experience. In the end, their lesson is that it's probably better if they don't cross roads. Or maybe even better that they don't leave the house. In the most extreme form not even for their safety but to keep others from harm. After all, the driver that kills them could get hurt or he could have to deal with the guilt of killing someone.

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