Member of President Obama's NSA Panel Recommends Increased Data Collection

cold fjord writes "National Journal reports, 'Michael Morell, the former acting director of the CIA and a member of President Obama's task force on surveillance, said ... that a controversial telephone data-collection program conducted by the National Security Agency should be expanded to include emails. He also said the program, far from being unnecessary, could prevent the next 9/11. Morell, seeking to correct any misperception that the presidential panel had called for a radical curtailment of NSA programs, said he is in favor of restarting a program that the NSA discontinued in 2011 that involved the collection of "meta-data" for internet communications. ... "I would argue actually that the email data is probably more valuable than the telephony data," ... Morell also said that while he agreed with the report's conclusion that the telephone data program, conducted under Section 215 of the Patriot Act, made "only a modest contribution to the nation's security" so far, it should be continued under the new safeguards recommended by the panel. "I would argue that what effectiveness we have seen to date is totally irrelevant to how effective it might be in the future," he said. "This program, 215, has the ability to stop the next 9/11 and if you added emails in there it would make it even more effective. Had it been in place in 2000 and 2001, I think that probably 9/11 would not have happened."' — More at Politico and National Review. Some members of Congress have a different view. Even Russian President Putin has weighed in with both a zing and a defense."

Comments

WTF?!

[killfixx]

*speechless*

Re:WTF?!

[careysb]

Seeing as how I haven't really heard anything to the contrary, this is what I expect will happen. And even if I had heard something to the contrary, this is what I would expect.

Re:WTF?!

[Greyfox]

It's a double-down! When you're in over your head there are two things you can do. Apologize, admit you were wrong and hope people forgive you and don't throw you in jail. Or you can double-down on the crazy! They obviously opted for the double-down. Oh, and it's a good one, too. You need huge fucking steel balls to double-down like that!

Re:WTF?!

[KermodeBear]

Hope and Change, man. Fight the military industrial complex, stick it to the man, fight for the little guy, eat the rich!

Seriously though - you cannot be surprised about this. If you are, you either:

1. Have not been paying attention, or
2. Are not intellectually honest, or
3. Both 1 and 2.

No, I'm not saying that putting an (R) after a name instead of a (D) would make it any better. I'm sure that some of these spying programs were started under President Bush Jr., or perhaps Clinton, or Bush Sr., or maybe even earlier.

You see, nearly all of the politicians these days are big government advocates, and part of big government means they want to watch you so that they can control you. It's for your own good though, see. It's to keep you safe. Or something.

I am reminded of a woman who called Mike Trivisonno's radio show on WTAM a few years back. She was an old woman from Russia, back when it was part of the USSR. She was angry, screaming at us (the American people in general), "Don't you see what you are doing? Don't you know where this will lead? I left Russia to get away from this! What are you doing?"

Re:WTF?!

[Anonymous Coward]

Sounds good in theory, like the free-market social Darwinist..
Until they realize that they are pudgy 40 year old 5 foot tall asthmatics who just had all their shit stolen and wife taken by force by a 7 foot tall thug with more muscle than brain.. Who just 'appropriated' their shit by pulling your dick out through your mouth. You know, survival of the fittest, and you my friend are NOT one of them. What? You expected POLICE to help you? You don't have the RIGHT to a government police force. Get off your lazy ass and grow a few feet and put on 100 pounds of muscle and protect your own damn self.

Armed support from the government doesn't protect anyone's rights, it just costs $$.

You see, there is what some kid in their basement thinks about the world, and then there is reality.

The reality is that it costs less than $3,000 a year for foodstamps. But prison costs between $35,000 and $65,000 per year.
In the real world, when there are 3 people for every 1 job, it is simply cheaper to help the poor than it is to punish them for having the fucking gall to be fired because someone with millions decided to move to commie china and get a tax break to do it.

In the real world, compassionate programs for things like drug treatment, food security, and basic housing is not just the christian thing to do ( and exactly what little baby Jesus would want). It is also the most cost effective to the taxpayer. And the reduction in thefts and increase in law and order is also very good if you are someone who wants to keep your shit without having to employ armed guards. Or sell shit and expect to get payed, or walk about without getting killed.

Or, you know hey, we could stop the economic support of rich fucks by raising minimum wage to a level that puts people above the poverty line and hence outside of the welfare system. If we adjusted minim wage to inflation it would be about $20.. There is the real issue.

Think about the future, not now

[Anonymous Coward]

Before anyone pipes up with "oh, this doesn't affect me, I'm just a nobody", then try thinking further ahead than the next quarter.

You may be one among, say, millions of students, but what about 5-10 years from now when you do or invent something important and it's in conflict with what the government of the day wants you to do ?

That's the point at which your student past is dug up and it's explained to you that unless you play ball your past will be revealed.

Even if you are the most boring person in the world, then what about the people one or two steps removed from you, ie: members of your class. Guilt by association and all that.

I really dislike it when people think about where they are today instead of where they may be a few years from now. People like these will sleepwalk into this future without realising it until it's too late.

Change you can believe in!

[lophophore]

Obama is Bush 2.0, even though he led us to believe he was the anti-Bush. We all thought he was going to undo the draconian actions of the Patriot Act, to restore personal liberty and freedom, but that's sure not what we got, is it?

Re:Change you can believe in!

[SuricouRaven]

Not quite.

There are certain semi-agreed 'debate issues' in US politics. Things that the parties have informally (Or possible, conspiratorially) decided are going to get a lot of attention, be a subject of intence R-v-D warfare and generally decide elections. A lot of these are things that won't actually have a great impact on most of society, like abortion or gay marriage.

There are also certain semi-agreed 'off the table' issues, where both sides have decided that drawing attention to them would be a bad thing for both sides. This includes defence spending and civil rights, along with such issues as corn subsidies and copyright reform. Rarely do you find a politician daring to even acknowledge these as issues, and any that do risk a backlash from their own party.

This is one of the 'off the table' issues. If Snowden's leaking hadn't forced it to public attention, it would never have been allowed to come up, and right now both parties are just hopeing it goes away again.

When Putin approves...

[Nyder]

... you know your doing something wrong.

 

I'm not american, but just to remember...

[Parker Lewis]

Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.
Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759

Snowden's response...

[Anonymous Coward]

NATIONAL Security Agency leaker Edward Snowden has criticised the presidential panel reviewing US surveillance programs, saying it was a hand-picked group by the government that only suggested cosmetic changes, according to a Sunday Brazilian TV report. "Their job wasn't to protect privacy or deter abuses, it was to restore public confidence in these spying activities. Many of the recommendations they made are cosmetic changes," Mr Snowden said in an email to the Globo TV channel.

According to the Globo report, Mr. Snowden said the NSA hasn’t produced evidence to suggest the disclosures have caused harm. He said U.S. law doesn’t distinguish between a whistleblower revealing illegal programs “and a spy secretly selling documents to terrorists.”

The biggest offense one can commit in the U.S. isn’t to damage the government, but rather to “embarrass it. It’s clear that I could not possibly get a fair trial in my country,” he said, according to the report.

http://blogs.wsj.com/washwire/2013/12/22/snowden-criticizes-u-s-panel-overseeing-surveillance/

Re:Encrypt everything...

[KingOfBLASH]

Yes but that's the scary thing about this whole metadata thing. If they tapped every backboned and could archive every packet it would effectively not matter you encrypted it along the way. They'd still know who you're talking to, where you surf online, the whole bit. Also, given how much crap snowden found, the scary question is what is so classified he didn't find it?

Do The Math - Still Worth It

[Bob9113]

"I would argue that what effectiveness we have seen to date is totally irrelevant to how effective it might be in the future," he said. "This program, 215, has the ability to stop the next 9/11 and if you added emails in there it would make it even more effective. Had it been in place in 2000 and 2001, I think that probably 9/11 would not have happened."'

OK, let's take your utterly preposterous claim at face value. Let's say that this program would have prevented 9/11, and would prevent another 9/11 tomorrow, and has done fuck-all in between. That means we'd save 3,000 American lives every 12 years. Call it 3,600 to make the math easy. That's 300 lives per year. Against the 4th amendment. How does that price measure up against some of our other freedoms?

To retain the right to drive automobiles, we spend 34,000 lives per year.

To retain the right to drink alcohol, we spend 34,000 to 75,000 lives per year (depending on how you count alcohol-related accidents).

To retain the right to use tobacco, we spend 440,000 lives per year.

To retain the second amendment, we spend 30,000 lives per year.

To retain the right to be obese, we spend 300,000 lives per year.

With the possible exception of tobacco, I support the retention of all those rights. Three hundred per year for The Fourth Amendment (and the chilling effect on The First)? Even if his preposterous supposition were true, it would be a bargain at ten times the price compared to some of the other rights we hold dear.

We Gathered Enough Information Pre-9/11..

[NotSanguine]

There were numerous reports about the 9/11 hijackers doing things like learning to fly jets and many of them were already on terrorist watch lists.

The issue wasn't a lack of information, it was apathy and incompetence. Gathering *even more* information about innocent people won't help stop anything. Having competent people who do their jobs can.

All that said, freedom isn't safe. If we want to be free, we have to understand that there are those who are unbalanced, criminal, or just downright nasty out there. We need balanced laws and competent people to address this, but spying on everyone isn't the answer. That is all.