Slashdot Mirror


NSA's Legal Win Introduces a Lot of Online Insecurity

Nerval's Lobster writes "The decision of a New York judge that the wholesale collection of cell-phone metadata by the National Security Agency is constitutional ties the score between pro- and anti-NSA forces at one victory apiece. The contradictory decisions use similar reasoning and criteria to come to opposite conclusions, leaving both individuals and corporations uncertain of whether their phone calls, online activity or even data stored in the cloud will ultimately be shielded by U.S. laws protecting property, privacy or search and seizure by law-enforcement agencies. On Dec. 27, Judge William H. Pauley threw out a lawsuit filed by the American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU) that sought to stop the NSA PRISM cell-phone metadata-collection program on the grounds it violated Fourth Amendment provisions protecting individual privacy and limits on search and seizure of personal property by the federal government. Pauley threw out the lawsuit largely due to his conclusion that Fourth Amendment protections do not apply to records held by third parties. That eliminates the criteria for most legal challenges, but throws into question the privacy of any data held by phone companies, cloud providers or external hosting companies – all of which could qualify as unprotected third parties."

23 of 239 comments (clear)

  1. The insecurity right now by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The insecurity is on the side of the NSA.
    They wouldn't go through such hoops if we didn't have the most powerful freedom tool ever, namely the Internet.

    Use it properly and they shall vanish.

    1. Re:The insecurity right now by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Name a single innocent person who has been affected by the NSA.

      Just about everyone in the US, unless you believe that freedom and the constitution don't matter. You also can't disregard future abuses, and as history shows, they're inevitable. You people who believe the people in the government are perfect beings are so disgustingly naive that I'm not sure how you even exist.

    2. Re:The insecurity right now by deconfliction · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The insecurity is on the side of the NSA.
      They wouldn't go through such hoops if we didn't have the most powerful freedom tool ever, namely the Internet.

      Use it properly and they shall vanish.

      You are right. But the problem is that the ISPs will not allow you to use the internet properly (e.g. hosting your own data on your own server at home, thus giving it the strongest possible U.S. 4th ammendment 'papers' protection.

      http://cloudsession.com/dawg/downloads/misc/kag-draft-2k121024.pdf
      http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2013/07/google-we-can-ban-servers-on-fiber-without-violating-net-neutrality/
      https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2013/08/google-fiber-continues-awful-isp-tradition-banning-servers
      http://crossies.com/pissed.html
      http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2013/10/google-fiber-now-explicitly-permits-home-servers/
      http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2013/08/01/198327/googles-call-for-open-internet.html

    3. Re:The insecurity right now by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Freedom is more important than safety. Remember how this is supposed to be "the land of the free and the home of the brave"? No? Then perhaps you're too trusting of the government.

      History also shows that invasions, terrorism, and spying against our country are inevitable.

      Such is life. In order to be free, we have to take some risks. That's what happens when you're free.

      I'll take those risks over your police/surveillance state any day.

      The constitution's meaning isn't determined by what is in your head.

      No, it's determined by the constitution. Try reading it sometime, and while doing so, try to avoid letting government propaganda destroy your ability to interpret it properly.

    4. Re:The insecurity right now by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Oh, look. An NSA shill posting AC on Slashdot. Didn't see that coming!

      Name a single innocent person who has been affected by the NSA.

      Besides everyone that has the constitutional right to not be searched without probably cause and warrant? How about the companies that were being spied on for economic purposes? Were they big winners from that? No? How strange.

      How about the big tech companies (such as anyone in cloud computing or cryptography) that took a major hit as a result of the leaks? You think they are happy that they are losing money now that people know how insecure these systems really are? How about Google/Yahoo/Microsoft/etc. that are suffering the same backlash on top of needing to invest a lot more resources to fix holes that the NSA was exploiting? What about RSA?

      How about Lavabit and Silent Circle? These are just two examples of businesses that were dismantled because of legal pressure. They are completely legal businesses.

      How about anyone that isn't actually doing anything wrong, but our government decides to harass/blackmail/defame anyways? We know that the NSA will find your porn and be more than happy to tell everyone about it. Blackmail is NOT OK!

      We also know that the NSA has been writing and distributing malware. How about TorMail or any other (legitimate) service provided by Freedom Hosting? We know that the FBI confiscated the servers, but the NSA helped with installing malware on any connection and siphoning data regardless of whether or not the user was attempting to access a legal service or not. Hell, we even know that the NSA took part in hacking consumer Tor nodes to initiate a MITM attack in the hope that they might be able to track someone unrelated.

      I think I've made my point. I could keep going, if I had to. There is a hell of a lot of people being wronged by this program, but lets turn your own game on you.

      Name a single innocent person who has been affected by the NSA.

      It's your turn. Name a single person or incident that has been stopped, hindered, or investigated in relation to terrorism from the NSA's programs. Trick question, we already know that there isn't any These programs have nothing to do with terrorism, so get your head out of your ass and stop pretending that it's OK for the government to infringe on our rights for their own personal gain.

    5. Re:The insecurity right now by ganjadude · · Score: 4, Informative

      Last I checked it said

      anything NOT in the CONSTITUTION is up to the STATES, NOT the federal government. Perhaps you should try reading it again. I recommend you start with the 10th amendment to clear up your ill informed understanding of the constitution

      --
      have you seen my sig? there are many others like it but none that are the same
    6. Re:The insecurity right now by lister+king+of+smeg · · Score: 4, Insightful

      History namely the Boston bombing also show that the government surveillance is utterly useless when applied to terrorism even when it is given plenty of warning by other nations. So if said surveillance is ineffectual against terrorism why is it still need.

      what is it useful for? creating a police state.

      those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither

      No where in the constitution does it say that it is governments job to keep me safe, it is my job to keep me safe, it is the governments job to ensure my freedoms and liberties are preserved not to infringe upon freedoms themselves.

      --
      ---Saying gnome 3 is better than windows 8 not so much a compliment as it is damning with light praise.
    7. Re:The insecurity right now by Gr8Apes · · Score: 5, Insightful

      A constitution by its very definition expresses what the government can do and what the people cannot do. Any legislation that is passed either gives the government powers or restricts the people from doing something. The government is only allowed to do what the laws say it can do. The people can do anything they want that is not explicitly against the law. To protect the people from 1 or 2 branches of the government from getting out of control the Judicial Branch was given absolute authority over all laws.

      The Constitution was designed to explicitly state what the federal government could do. It left everything else to the states and the people, with the exceptions that there were certain things that even the states could not overrule, namely, those enumerated in the Bill of Rights. Within those constraints, the government should have no additional powers without an amendment. Collecting all data is an expansion.

      --
      The cesspool just got a check and balance.
    8. Re:The insecurity right now by Creepy · · Score: 4, Insightful

      let's not forget that the NSA's charter explicitly prohibits them from spying on Americans, which they've admittedly done with this program (including American to American communications, which are not exempted by the Patriot act).

      My understanding is this program has been invaluable to the FBI for getting warrantless information on suspected drug offenders or dealers (where they typically have to request a warrant), but I've heard nothing about it stopping terrorism in any way.

    9. Re:The insecurity right now by cold+fjord · · Score: 4, Informative

      Freedom is more important than safety. Remember how this is supposed to be "the land of the free and the home of the brave"? No? Then perhaps you're too trusting of the government.

      Or maybe you simply ignore parts of the Constitution that aren't your favorite. If you bother to read the constitution, you see entire sections devoted to the question of providing for the security of the United States. If fact you could make the very reasonable argument that freedom of the individual citizens was assumed and it was security, national defense, that had to be explicitly provided for. Many of the specific guarantees regarding various freedoms are not in the text of the main document itself, but are "add ons" in amendments. The main text of the document, the Constitution, is concerned with explicitly describing authority related to providing national defense and powers of the Federal government.

      The simple fact is that various aspects of security and freedom are tied together. A nation that is conquered by a foreign invader will not be free. A nation that has a breakaway region faces enormous questions as to its fate. If lawlessness in your city is such that you have reasonable fear for your life or limb by leaving the building where you live, what true freedom do you have? If pirates are taking your citizens as slaves, you are failing to protect their freedom, and yet it isn't clear you would be troubled by that since ".... we have to take some risks. That's what happens when you're free." Would you protect the freedoms of American citizens, either protecting or freeing them from pirates? I have no confidence in that.

      On the whole I find your argument "freedom is more important than safety" to be ill considered, at best, since most people I see making that claim here tend to resolve it towards the direction of "therefore we cannot tolerate steps taken to provide for security, at all," even if not explicitly stated.

      Benjamin Franklin said, "We must all hang together, or assuredly we shall all hang separately." I think if we look closely at the arguments of those who claim we must only have freedom, and any steps towards security are too many, that they are in effect saying, "Hang the lot of you, but stay away from me." If there was a guarantee that they would be a "canary in the coal mine," the first to be hung to give the rest ample warning, it might be worth considering. But there is no such guarantee, so we must provide for both.

      The Constitution of the United States

      Article. I.

      Section. 8.

      To define and punish Piracies and Felonies committed on the high Seas, and Offences against the Law of Nations;

      To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water;

      To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years;

      To provide and maintain a Navy;

      To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces;

      To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;

      To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress; ....

      To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof.

      Section. 9.

      The Pri

      --
      much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
    10. Re: The insecurity right now by YumoolaJohn · · Score: 4, Informative

      The only people with horrible logic are those that support this type of surveillance. They also have an awful grasp of history and are disgustingly naive.

  2. How about that rented storage? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    If the fourth doesn't apply to records held by third parties... what if your records are in a rented storage unit or a bank safety deposit box? If your property is held by a third party (your money in the bank), do constitutional protections against the government just seizing your money also not apply?

    1. Re:How about that rented storage? by sribe · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Uhm, worse, what about people who rent rather than own? If you live in an apartment owned by someone else, do you have any rights???

    2. Re:How about that rented storage? by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 4, Insightful

      "The constitution can only cover so much in modern times."

      I'm not sure if this is what you meant, but I don't see this as a deficiency in the Constitution. The Constitution says that people shall be secure in their "papers, and effects". Courts have for the most part ruled that modern communications are equivalent to "papers and effects". Some exceptions were made later (like the "3rd party" rule this judge used), but those exceptions are pretty clearly obsolete today.

      What is really important is the "expectation of privacy" that people have with their communications. They expect cell phone calls to be private. (And I would argue that they also expect their phone call "metadata" to be private too.) They expect emails to be private (or should).

      Courts are supposed to use the "reasonable man" or "reasonable person" principle: what would a reasonable person do, or expect? Using that standard, I think it is pretty darned clear that the vast majority of people DO have an expectation of privacy. And if most people expect it, it is by definition "reasonable".

    3. Re:How about that rented storage? by NicBenjamin · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Under the fourth amendment ownership of the building is irrelevant. The Fourth protects your person, papers, house, and effects. If you have a legal right to store papers you own in a place then they have the same Constitutional protections regardless of who actually owns the building. If you don't have a legal right to store them there -- maybe you leave the book where you record your illegal bets in some guys house and he finds it -- then the owner can rat your ass out and you get no Fourth Amendment protections. OTOH if the owner chooses not to rat you out the police need a warrant to search his house before they can get the book.

      The debate in this case is who actually owns these records. The government is arguing that since these records are not used by you, but are generated by a private company as part of it's business, they aren't actually your records. Just as the government doesn't need a warrant to read who has a tab at the local bar it doesn't need a warrant to read the data on who you called last week.

      Privacy advocates are arguing otherwise. The fact you think your records are yours is extremely important, and the NSA snooping has to stop.

      In legal terms the simple fact is that the only judges who matter are not likely to side with privacy advocates, because two of them are Obama appointees unlikely to argue his attempt to get the program covered by getting the FISA Court to issue warrants was evil Fascism, a third (Roberts) appointed the FISA guys who issued said warrants, and four more are aligned with the guys who thought that we didn't warrants in the first place. Five votes to overturn the NSA will be tricky.

    4. Re:How about that rented storage? by sumdumass · · Score: 4, Informative

      Actually, we know they have used this information against Americans in American courts. We had a big story about it a while ago when the feds would call up a state agency and say X is going to happen at Y or something similar, you need to find a way of making it legit and capture them.

      I think it was called creating a parallel construction where they know you have drugs in your car or something but pull you over for doing 1mph over the speed limit and search your car because "you were acting suspicious".

      http://slashdot.org/story/13/08/05/168205/dea-program-more-troubling-than-nsa

  3. Can't rely on the law then by gnasher719 · · Score: 4, Informative

    Obviously, if you don't want the NSA to read your data, make sure they can't read them. Make sure your data is not stored outside your control by someone who could at least in theory read it (like Lavabit). Make sure the data is not stored in the USA at all if you can avoid it.

  4. All NSA-related judgements should be suspended by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Due to the scale of NSA data collection, it is safe to assume that the NSA has data about every single US judge.

    The data NSA has may render the judges unable to render impartial judgement.

    A bi-partisan political review of all NSA data about every US judge should be conducted to verify that the judges are in the position to do their jobs.

    By now the entire US legal system might be corrupted by the virtually unlimited NSA data collection.

  5. In Soviet Russia ... by nbauman · · Score: 4, Insightful

    During the cold war, we heard stories about how the Communist governments monitor their citizens.

    Now our government is monitoring us in ways that the East Germans would envy.

    Here's something useful you can do:

    -- Find out how your Congressman and Senators voted on these policies.

    -- Add it to their Wikipedia page.

    -- Don't vote for them if they don't support the Fourth Amendment.

  6. It's a valid opinion by WOOFYGOOFY · · Score: 5, Interesting

    It's just wrong, that's all. Wrong because our emails are *clearly* the "papers" mentioned in the Constitution. If there's a law that makes 3rd party possession of same somehow the equivalent of "it suddenly not being yours" then it's THAT law that has to go. This is how it is in most of Europe BTW. YOU control your phone records, not Verizon.

    I could almost live with TIA if I thought that it would only be accessed via a court order, but that's not what we have. What we have is secret FISA orders, executed in secret, using secret criteria in accord with secret interpretations of secret executive orders.

    I sympathize with this judge's concerns, I do, but the real world consequences of what they're doing are more likely to be worse than the real world consequences of stopping them from doing it, even if we have another 9-11 every year.

    Our democracy will not survive if the government can data mine all our "anonymous" data until programs it wrote decide that we fit a "profile" and THAT itself constitutes "reasonable suspicion". This can be used to stifle all dissent, and will be used for exactly that, starting, obviously, with people who speak out against the legitimacy of this process in the first place. A guy like Howard Zinn would just be destroyed by this.. we wouldn't have legitimate dissent in this nation.

    Here's something that should help people think clearly on this topic. The NSA line operators and management REFUSED to permit the NSA to apply the same level of monitoring to THEM as they apply to us. They didn't want Congress to second guess them or know what they were doing.

    (Binney) ".. also explained that NSA never developed and implemented technology in order to have the capabilities to track activities by employees on the agencyâ(TM)s systems because of two groups of people: the analysts and management.

    The analysts âoerealized that what that would be doing is monitoring everything they did and assessing what they were doing. They objected. They didnâ(TM)t want to be monitored.â

    Management resisted because it meant one would be âoeable to assess returns on all the programs around the world.â It would be possible to âoelay out all the programs in the world and map [them] against the spending and the return on investment.â

    It meant the agency would be âoeexposed to Congress for auditing,â Binney added.â Management did not want that."

    From:

    http://dissenter.firedoglake.com/2013/12/27/interview-with-nsa-whistleblower-bill-binney-afraid-were-spreading-secret-government-around-world/

    But this is the ONE thing that MUST be implemented. If an NSA operator cuts a fart, I want Congress to be able to know what he had for lunch. Unwatched watchers cannot be permitted to exist. Period.

    At the heart of what's going on here is the people at the NSA are looking into their own hearts and deciding that they're all right and the American public has nothing to fear from them or their intentions. Bully for them, I'm sure it's true, but they won't always be there.

    It's not about them or their intentions. It's about the institution, the process, *the machine* and how we're building that machine.

    You can't say to yourself, as an NSA employee, by way of assuaging your own secret apprehensions, "Well, if push ever does come to shove, if it came right down to it, an unconstitutional, openly fascist-level of abuse would just never happen because WE'D never permit it". At least, you can't tell yourself that and also bash guys like Snowden and Binney because THOSE guys , whom you hate so much they make you grind your teeth , they're exactly the hypothetical WE you posit in the above safeguard. It doesn't look any different that THIS .. THIS THIS that is before your ey

  7. I say BS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

    "The decision of a New York judge that the wholesale collection of cell-phone metadata by the National Security Agency is constitutional ties the score between pro- and anti-NSA forces at one victory apiece.

    I call BS. Nowhere in the article did the judge even mention the Constitution. From the information provided in the article, the judge is obviously either paid off or incompetent. He states that

    In the 54-page opinion issued in New York, Pauley said the sweeping program "represents the government's counter-punch" to eliminate al-Qaeda's terror network by connecting fragmented and fleeting communications.

    which has nothing to do with legally acquiring evidence or the Constitution, and

    "There is no evidence that the Government has used any of the bulk telephony metadata it collected for any purpose other than investigating and disrupting terrorist attacks," he wrote.

    which once again was irrelevant to the question before the court. Just because the government has NOT YET been caught using the data illegally has nothing to do with it being illegally acquired.

    The judge also quotes extensive justifications from the Patriot Act, which last I checked, is NOT part of the Constitution.

  8. Re:The ruling does nothing novel by russotto · · Score: 4, Interesting

    The Supreme Court ruled, in Smith v. Maryland, 442 U.S. 735 (1979), that you don't have a reasonable expectation of privacy in records you don't control. It's not Judge Pauley's conclusion, it's binding precedent that the court that rucked against the NSA handwaved away with not good explanation.

    The question is whether Smith v. Maryland -- which was about one order to put a pen register on one phone based on suspicion (but no warrant nor probable cause) -- is distinguishable from this case where every phone record from every phone in the country with no particularized suspicion at all. Pauley explicitly ruled "no", the other court ruled that it was distinguishable.

    If the NSA metadata collection is not distinguishable from Smith v. Maryland, then the slippery slope argument is not a fallacy.

  9. Re:Impartiality by nbauman · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Nobody believes that since the Republican-majority Supreme Court handed the election over to the Republican candidate in Bush vs. Gore.

    So that's what really did it for you? That's when you started doubting the system, when the Supreme Court upheld the legal principle that you can't keep changing the rules of an election after the voting until the other guy wins?

    Scalia on Bush v Gore: ‘Get Over It’

    Starting in the 1970s, I worked as a paralegal in some law firms on a different cases, including a few important pro bono stuff. [Long legal experience omitted] There was a big debate at the time about whether the law was just enforcing the privilege of the rich, or whether it actually promoted justice. At one point, they had me convinced that there was some justice in the system, after we won some abortion cases and forced some cities and states to provide housing for the homeless, as they were required to do in their constitutions (which they had ignored). The civil rights laws finally helped negroes fight for right to vote in the South without getting killed https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mississippi_civil_rights_workers'_murders as often, and finally gave broad protection to black people and women as well.

    So the optimists had me convinced. The law could sometimes, imperfectly, provide justice. American corporate capitalism seemed to be doing pretty good too -- good pay, secure jobs.

    Then came Ronald Reagan. The gentleman's agreement up to then in Congress was that each president would choose a distinguished legal scholar and jurist who was impartial and respected by all sides. Reagan openly announced that he would be appointing justices that would give conservatives the results they wanted. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ronald_Reagan_Supreme_Court_candidates He deliberately chose young justices (rather than the customary older, experienced justices) to end the normal rotation in the Court. I followed this on the Wall Street Journal editorial page, and they were open about what they were trying to do -- which was pack the court. And yes, Scalia was one of the nastiest bullies of all, just making decisions based on his own opinion and coming up with excuses to ignore the law. Since then it's gotten worse.

    There were many opinions of the Supreme Court that I didn't like, but I never expected to see something like Bush vs. Gore. The law in Florida was that votes were to be counted according to the intent of the voter. In order to believe that the voters intended to vote for Bush, you'd have to believe that 3,400 Jewish voters intentionally voted for Pat Bucanan, a prominent critic of Israel, instead of Gore and Lieberman. Even Bucanan didn't believe that. The 5 Republican justices ignored Florida law, and the facts, to hand the election to Bush. Since then they've been voting the Republican party line, which has moved far to the right.

    So I had to admit that the Marxist cynics were right. The law enforces the privileges of the powerful. No money, no justice.