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Who Is Liable When a Self-Driving Car Crashes?

innocent_white_lamb writes "Current laws make the driver of a car responsible for any mayhem caused by that vehicle. But what happens when there is no driver? This article argues that the dream of a self-driving car is futile since the law requires that the driver is responsible for the operation of the vehicle. Therefore, even if a car is self-driving, you as the driver must stay alert and pay attention. No texting, no reading, no snoozing. So what's the point of a self-driving car if you can't relax or do something else while 'driving?'"

27 of 937 comments (clear)

  1. Efficiency. by lifewarped · · Score: 5, Insightful

    A self driving car would be less likely to rubberneck, or cause other issues relating to a human driver. Cars could in theory go faster. etc.

    1. Re:Efficiency. by amicusNYCL · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Think of all the problems it could solve though. For example, oblivious drivers shoulder to shoulder going the same speed and not letting anyone else pass. If the cars were autonomous then they could simply tell each other to move over. I would love to have that ability now. Lane speed could also be regulated. If you wanted your car to drive slower then it would stay in the farther right lanes. If your car was being passed on the right, then it would keep moving over until no one is passing it on the right. It would be great if humans did that today, which is the cause for most of the slowdown that I see on the highways.

      --
      "Our two-party system is like a bowl of shit looking at itself in a mirror." - Lewis Black
    2. Re:Efficiency. by crakbone · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Actually I see the opposite. When I drive people around they talk, work on their phones, or make calls. They don't usually tell me to go faster. On an automatic car you would most likely see people start to do other more important things than worry about that .25 second advantage they would have if they cut off three cars.

    3. Re:Efficiency. by MindStalker · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Of course in the real world the driver is almost never personally held liable. If I let my friend drive my car and he causes a crash on accident My insurance for My car will pay for the accident. I didn't cause the crash my my car which I insured crashed so ultimately my insurance pays for it and my rates go up. Who the driver is, my friend or an AI system is irrelevant.

    4. Re:Efficiency. by RenderSeven · · Score: 4, Funny

      You know they can just kill you with subliminal messages over your radio to make you drive over a cliff, right? Its turtles all the way down, my friend.

    5. Re: Efficiency. by iamhassi · · Score: 4, Insightful

      You think the govt needs to hack the car to kill you? I'm more worried about the govt being able to track where every car is, since once they're driverless the next step is to allow them to communicate with each other, and if they can talk then the govt can see where the cars are.

      As for who's responsible when a driverless car crashes it will probably be the same as when a dog kills someone, the owner of the dog is responsible. Just because the owner wasn't operating the wheel doesn't make them any less responsible, but just like we have learned to trust cruise control and drive by wire gas pedals to not suddenly accelerate, we will learn to trust driverless cars.
      But how will cops be able to tell drunk drivers if the car is driving? And does it even matter if they're drunk if the car is driving them home?

      --
      my karma will be here long after I'm gone
    6. Re:Efficiency. by cdrudge · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Efficiency can have multiple meanings. You're talking about maximizing mileage for the fuel used. What if we're talking about getting you from point A to point B the fastest possible to efficiently minimize your travel time and maximize your time at the destination? Or if the self-driving car is a taxi, for delivering one fare and picking up another, balancing fuel economy, fare rates, and fare availability, "efficiently" maximizing revenue while minimizing idle time.

    7. Re:Efficiency. by holmstar · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Self driving cars could also form trains, driving only a few feet apart, thereby greatly reducing wind resistance. A car train might be able to get the same fuel economy at 85 mph as a single car would achieve at 50.

    8. Re:Efficiency. by silas_moeckel · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Time efficient, vs cost. I can not get more time, I can get more money thus I value my time far more than money. By your charts paying 33-50% more to get someplace 2x as fast is well worth it. If your time is cheap but your money dear stay in the slow lane.

      --
      No sir I dont like it.
    9. Re:Efficiency. by dcw3 · · Score: 4, Interesting

      An exception are back doors with stupid-child protection engaged

      Okay, I'm somewhat off-topic, but I've gotta ask what you have against this? I've personally had the experience of a former GF's 4 yr old opening a back door while I was cruising down the road.

      --
      Just another day in Paradise
    10. Re:Efficiency. by fisted · · Score: 5, Funny

      As per common English operator precedence, the hyphen-operator binds tighter than the space operator.

      see man 5 english for further information

    11. Re:Efficiency. by Obfuscant · · Score: 4, Interesting

      If a self-driving car can't avoid an impending incident there is no way I will believe a human could.

      We're headed down the freeway. Up ahead I see some teenagers standing on an overpass holding something large and watching cars pass underneath. I recognize a potential dropped rock and change lanes to get away from it. Will the computer do that?

      I'm almost home. I see the neighbor kid playing basketball in his driveway. He shoots. He misses. I know as soon as he misses that there is a good chance the ball will roll out into the street, and knowing how oblivious the neighbor kid is I can expect him to follow. Will the computer know this? In fact, I see the kid running towards the street, but he is hidden behind a parked van and will not actually be visible in the street until he's in the street directly in front of me. Will the car track him all the way from the upper end of his driveway?

      I'm passing an intersection and there are two people standing on the corner. They are in a position where they might step into the crosswalk. Can the computer read those people's body language to predict that they will or won't step off the sidewalk in front of me?

      There are any number of fuzzy logic problems that the computer will never be better at solving as fast and correctly as a human is, simply because the data will be missing. Everyone who claims that the new robotic car overlords will be better and safer at doing everything for us are hopelessly naive.

      Any accidents that occur with self-driving cars, initially, I'm sure will be because of human drivers not doing what they should be doing.

      Even if the self-driving cars have accidents it will be because the humans, who are not doing anything have done it wrong. And the NTSB is correct for their blanket finding of "pilot error" on every airplane crash, right?

      like a piano falling out of the sky landing directly on a car in traffic.

      Yes, when I drive, that's exactly what I fear most. And based on your claims that a human couldn't keep an eye on a helicopter with a piano dangling on a thin wire underneath but a computer could ("If a self-driving car can't avoid an impending incident there is no way I will believe a human could") I for one welcome my new robotic masters.

  2. Safety by adamstew · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I would think the point would be that machines, once properly programmed, can be the worlds safest drivers...statistically. You, as a human, will still be responsible for taking over when the machine doesn't know what to do. But, for the other 99.5% of the time, the self-driving car will make the best decisions and always be completely alert.

    Self-Driving cars, I believe, have the ability to drastically reduce deaths caused by motor vehicle accidents...one of the highest causes of death in the USA.

    1. Re:Safety by gstoddart · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I would think the point would be that machines, once properly programmed, can be the worlds safest drivers...statistically. You, as a human, will still be responsible for taking over when the machine doesn't know what to do.

      No way that's gonna work.

      There's now way you can expect people to be alert and responsive if they have to be on the ball for that small fraction of the time -- they'll have started reading their paper or plenty of other things.

      If I'm responsible for the operation of the vehicle, I'll bloody well drive myself and be engaged for the entire time, and don't need your autonomous car.

      I'f I'm not responsible for the operation of the vehicle, I want to be in the back seat in one hell of a good safety cage with no pretense whatsoever that I'm in control.

      You can't have the vehicle responsible most of the time, and the ostensible operator responsible whenever that stops working suddenly, it defeats the purpose.

      Which, to me, is kind of a fairly fundamental problem with self driving cars. It's all or nothing. And if *all* the cars on the road aren't autonomous, then the autonomous ones are mostly a traffic hazard with no clear liability.

      --
      Lost at C:>. Found at C.
  3. Insurance by mfwitten · · Score: 4, Insightful

    There's an industry that manages risk.

    Regulation (e.g., insurance) always develops spontaneously, because there is a market for reducing chaos.

    1. Re:Insurance by jythie · · Score: 5, Interesting

      *nod* I could see the liability resting on your insurance carrier, then premiums being based off the model of car, version of software, or configuration.

    2. Re:Insurance by sjames · · Score: 5, Funny

      when it's time to collect, they weasel out.

      Too true. Clearly we need insurance insurance.

    3. Re:Insurance by bill_mcgonigle · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Right. It needs to be strictly civil liability - the government could really hose this up if they attach criminal penalties.

      The computer industry has set a terrible precedent here, which I hope is stopped. That person running an unpatched XP in a botnet should be just as liable as the person riding in his car, for the damage his car does and for the damage his PC does. Kaspersky should be selling combination AV/Insurance packages.

      People wonder why linux doesn't catch on despite being so much more secure than Windows. One of the factors is that Windows doesn't have to be as good because liability is artificially limited by the government, and that's a direct subsidy. Absent that protection, either Windows would get better or it'd become too expensive to run.

      --
      My God, it's Full of Source!
      OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
    4. Re:Insurance by PeeAitchPee · · Score: 4, Informative

      You jest, but you're talking about a real thing called reinsurance.

  4. laws change by MozeeToby · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Current law not appropriate for future technology! News at 11!

  5. Boring Drive by ZombieBraintrust · · Score: 4, Insightful

    But with nothing to do behind the wheel 99% of the time your not going to be alert. Your going to be super bored. So when your supposed to take over you won't be prepared to do so.

    1. Re:Boring Drive by SJHillman · · Score: 5, Informative

      Cars should have a failsafe option when faced with a decision in dangerous circumstances. Something like "pull the fuck off the road without hitting shit then ask what to do". Sure, even a failsafe option can't account for everything, but it will probably still do a better job than your average human driver - alert or not.

      If we always waited until 100% of the issues are ironed out, then we still wouldn't even be using fire. Personally, once machine drivers are statistically safer than human drivers, I'm all for adopting them as our vehicular overlords.

    2. Re:Boring Drive by danlip · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Not to mention that people who have been using self-driving cars all their life will have 99% less driving experience. They will basically all be student drivers, but without a teacher in the car when something goes wrong.

  6. Won't be the manufacturer ... by gstoddart · · Score: 4, Informative

    The manufacturer will have an EULA which absolves them from guilt.

    It won't be the people who sold it, because they'll also have a contract term which says they are absolved from guilt.

    So, it will come down to the owner, who will be entirely dependent on the quality of the product, as delivered by two entities who have already said "not us".

    So, if you privately buy an autonomous car, and it crashes, you will likely be on the hook for it. If you merely hire them (as in a Taxi), then I'm sure the people who rent them will also absolve themselves from guilt in some strange way -- likely through arms length 3rd parties who do the actual operation.

    This won't be so much "buyer beware" as "everyone else on the roadway beware", because you'll have a vehicle driving around that if it crashes, there's a long line of people who have already made sure their asses are covered.

    The lawyers for the companies making and selling these will have covered their asses before it ends up in the hands of anybody else.

    --
    Lost at C:>. Found at C.
  7. Automated vehicles already exist by i_ate_god · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Just from memory:

    Montreal Metro is driven by autopiloting with someone in the cab for door management.

    Vancouver Skyline doesn't even have a driver anywhere, it's all automated.

    Several airports (Orlando was the last one I went to), have automated trains/monorails to shuffle people between terminals.

    Most flights you take are done almost entirely on autopilot.

    So far, it seems that mass transit is increasingly automated. So why is non-mass transit any different?

    --
    I'm god, but it's a bit of a drag really...
  8. I don't think much has to change.... by spinozaq · · Score: 5, Interesting

    The change will happen slowly, organically, over time. A self driving car will behave statistically as a very safe driver. Ownership of a self driving car should bestow upon you lower insurance rates. If the current insurance companies balk at the idea, the private market will take over and "self driving only" insurance companies will gladly take their place. Eventually, as more and more share of vehicles are self driving the size of the insurance industry will shrink significantly.

    I see no reason to change the liability burden away from the "Driver". It may seem counter intuitive, but you are gaining economic advantage by using your self driving car. For that advantage, you accept the risks, and insure yourself against them. That said, operating a self driving car will/should carry significantly less risk and liability then driving yourself around does now.

    That does not mean that the car makers are off the hook. Just like today, if a vehicle mechanically malfunctions in a way that the car maker is found responsible, the insurance company may attempt to subrogate the claim to them.

  9. Submitter doesn't understand the problem by gnasher719 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    There are two distinct things: One is that you are officially the driver even if the car drives itself, and you are responsible. But the whole point of a self driving car is that it is safer driving in a self-driving car with your eyes closed than in a non-self driving car with open eyes. You are responsible, but nobody is going to say "you are responsible because you used a self driving car without watching". They will say "you are responsible because your self-driving car caused the crash". Which will happen less often than if you drove yourself.

    Right now you have to (a) watch out what you are doing and (b) pray that you don't have an accident. With a self driving car you don't need to watch out what you or the car are doing; you still have to pray that you don't have an accident.

    And the whole idea of taking control in unexpected situations is nonsense. In the very best case, you would have to (1) do something to take control away from the computer and (2) react to the problem. In situations where there is enough time for that, the computer can handle things just fine. And people may think they are good in unexpected situations, but they are not.