Tesla Sending New Wall-Charger Adapters After Garage Fire

JoeyRox writes "Tesla is sending its customers new home charging connectors after recent reports of chargers overheating in garages and one instance of a fire inside a wall socket that held one of the chargers. Tesla CEO Elon Musk said the new charging adapter will contain a thermal fuse capable of terminating the charging process if it gets too hot. 'These are very rare events, but occasionally the wiring isn't done right. We want people to have absolute comfort, so we're going to be providing them with an upgraded adapter.' The company also issued a software update in December to address the overheating issue."

Comments

Is Tesla making cars...

[Anonymous Coward]

... the way 20 year olds make web sites nowadays?

Re:Is Tesla making cars...

[Anonymous Coward]

This is a 100% serious reply - Once upon a time, software developers selected beta testers, who used the software with the understanding that it was still in a beta version and bugs should be expected and documented.

Now, no such "testing" occurs in both the software and hardware realms. The developers or manufacturers simply develop something that compiles or doesn't collapse under its own weight and sells it as the release version to customers that expect all that testing to have been done already, so it works. Customers pay full price, the shit crashes or falls apart(or catches fire), they complain to the company describing what happened, and then the company documents what happened and gives the customer a "new" but equally faulty piece in exchange.

There is no more "beta" testing - the beta testers are now referred to as "early adopters."

-- Ethanol-fueled

Re: Is Tesla making cars...

[imgod2u]

People haven't stopped beta testing. Either in hardware or software. They have been quicker to release because the vast majority of software nowadays are done inside a sandbox (mobile apps, cloud servers, etc) rather than from scratch.

It's not like software or hardware back then was any more reliable. Office, OS9, Windows (all versions) have always been plagued with problems and one can argue they have fewer obvious bugs now than they did before - When's the last time you got a BSOD?

The counterbalance is that the consumer base is far far far larger now. Some of us who were at Intel at the height of the Pentium 4 were happy to have sold 40M units in a year. Mobile phone processors at qualcomm nowadays clear 400M/quarter.

If it seems like hardware and software bugs show up faster, it is because the userbase that uses and report such bugs (easy to do now via social media) is much much much larger.

Re:Is Tesla making cars...

[ackthpt]

This is a 100% serious reply - Once upon a time, software developers selected beta testers, who used the software with the understanding that it was still in a beta version and bugs should be expected and documented.

Now, no such "testing" occurs in both the software and hardware realms. The developers or manufacturers simply develop something that compiles or doesn't collapse under its own weight and sells it as the release version to customers that expect all that testing to have been done already, so it works. Customers pay full price, the shit crashes or falls apart(or catches fire), they complain to the company describing what happened, and then the company documents what happened and gives the customer a "new" but equally faulty piece in exchange.

There is no more "beta" testing - the beta testers are now referred to as "early adopters."

-- Ethanol-fueled

That sounds like an adequate description of pretty much all software development these days, roll it out on schedule, we'll deal with bugs (or deny there are any) later on. That or just ignore customer complaints as long as the software continues to sell: Windows is the most notorious example, but they are far from alone in this practice.

Suffice to say, I get the constant feeling of denying elementary physics (let alone chemistry) whenever there's talk of selling electric cars. It takes a certain and large amount of energy to propel something as heavy as an automobile around. Discharge of batteries is not 100% efficient (though very good compared to charging), charging is less efficient (using more power from the wall than is actually stored in the battery) and some loss of battery performance and capacity happens over time.

A friend bought a Nissan Leaf and became acutely aware of how wind strength and direction; hills and use of something as simple as the ventilation fan affected the range of the car on one charge. Also how terribly slow it charges off 120. Ideally a high current 240 outlet should be available for charging.

Perhaps that outlet in the garage the contractor wired up at the time of home construction or renovation was sufficient for a chest freezer or washing machine, which didn't continue to draw a high current for hours on end, like the charger for the Tesla does.

Anyone buying one of these cars would do well to make sure their wiring is up to the load and a proper circuit breaker and smoke alarm are handy.

Re:Is Tesla making cars...

[Anonymous Coward]

Perhaps that outlet in the garage the contractor wired up at the time of home construction or renovation was sufficient for a chest freezer or washing machine, which didn't continue to draw a high current for hours on end, like the charger for the Tesla does.

Yes, that was my first thought as well, that an electrician did a sub-par job that was good enough for most uses, but wasn't actually up to code, so could not handle a max-use case. So when a max-use case came along, it demonstrated perfectly the dangers of ignoring electrical code.

Reminds me of when some group complained that Apple created shitty CD drives because it broke their non-standard CDs. In that case, both Apple and the CD manufacturer were out of spec, so they both shared blame. But it has yet to be shown here that the blame lies anywhere else besides whoever did the wiring of that guy's house.

Re:Is Tesla making cars...

[LordLimecat]

Whats the incidence rate of this sort of thing again?

Can you point me to a specific hardware or software product from your "golden age" which had a 0% defect rate?

Re:Is Tesla making cars...

[AaronW]

There have been a number of problems with the UMC (cable in question). The cable has an adapter on the end to choose from a variety of plugs, i.e. NUMA 14-50, NUMA 14-30 standard 120v, NEMA 10-30, 6-50, etc.

I myself have seen issues where my NEMA 14-30 adapter would give a fault if the cable was bumped. The connection between the adapter and the cable is not all that solid and a number of owners have had issues with this.

About a foot away from this connector is a control box that contains a GFI and a relay and the circuitry to interface to the car.

The adapter has 5 pins on it. One for ground, one for each 240V leg (neutral is not used) and a pin that appears to go to a resistor to signal the amount of current supported by the adapter. I don't remember what the last pin does. Anyway, for the amount of current the NEMA 14-50 and 6-50 adapters carry the pins are rather small. The adapter also doesn't always securely latch to the cable which can lead to a bad connection causing the adapter and/or cable to melt.

I don't think this will be a big setback for Tesla. Tesla's retail price for this cable is $600.

Re:Is Tesla making cars...

[Anonymous Coward]

The incidence rate is attenuation from holding my iPhone4 the wrong way, but actually being a low-level monkey in the industry has made me privy to much dirt.

See, it's not about a 0% defect rate. It's about actually verifying the drawings, or prototyping and measuring out what SPICE said would be okay, or actually getting out of your fucking chairs and doing old-fashioned detective work. You know, one of those things engineers are paid to do? You ever see a fully-retarded drawing with mounting bolts the size of Goodyear Blimps signed off by 4 levels of engineers including the engineering manager?

I have. And, man, you're lazy idiots. You're educated idiots, but lazy and not worth much nonetheless. Anybody could replace a mechanical engineer with a community college kid who passed drawing 101 and 102 and get more productivity at less cost.

-- Ethanol-fueled

Re: Is Tesla making cars...

[Firethorn]

If it seems like hardware and software bugs show up faster, it is because the userbase that uses and report such bugs (easy to do now via social media) is much much much larger.

This. Let's say that Problem X is generally only going to be encountered by 1 out of 1k users per year. If you have a beta group of 1k users and have them test it for 1 year(incredibly large and long in today's environments) you may or may not have it pop up, I believe the odds are around 50-50 in this case of you getting at least 1 instance.

Now you release it to the public where it's sold to 100M users who proceed to use it for a decade. You're near certain to get a number of cases that rounds to 1M, which is a big problem...

Re:Is Tesla making cars...

[Jeremi]

That sounds like an adequate description of pretty much all software development these days, roll it out on schedule, we'll deal with bugs (or deny there are any) later on.

The reason that companies can get away with this is because the Internet has made software distribution essentially free.

In the good/bad old days, releasing software meant pressing a few thousand (or a few hundred thousand) CDs and shipping them to stores. If there was a serious bug in the software, you'd probably have to do that process all over again, at a cost of thousands of dollars.

Now if you have a bug in your software, you just fix it and push the new version out to the customers via the software's self-update mechanism.

The advantage to the user is that they get to use the software sooner, and cheaper, and they get the (inevitable) bugs fixes quicker.

Re:Is Tesla making cars...

[Internetuser1248]

It is also worth mentioning, with all this Tesla fire hype: Recalling parts for safety reasons in the automotive industry is the rule not the exception. Almost every model from every car manufacturer has had some parts or systems recalled. Fire is the cause of a significant percentage of recalls. It is hard to get exact numbers as each country has it's own database. I looked at the US one quickly for an example. Selected a random model and year (Aluma 2009), and sure enough there were three recalls for that year alone. The first one i clicked had the text "THIS DEFECT COULD RESULT IN A FIRE.".

Given the percentage of the vehicle fleet that is made of Teslas, this is not really relevant news.

Re: Is Tesla making cars...

[TransientAlias]

Sounds like substandard house wiring. They probably designed the charger to max out the circuit. It's not their fault that someone else wired up the outlet improperly. It's nice that they are addressing the issue with both software and hardware changes, but these changes are in response to someone else's failure to meet spec.

Re:Is Tesla making cars...

[macpacheco]

Perhaps you should talk to a few model S owners, ask them if they feel the car is beta quality.
Most will say it's the best car they have ever driven.
Just because the car has room for improvement in its software, and the first user's experience and feedback help in the process of improving the software, it doesn't make it beta quality.
It's amazing how many people try really hard to say bad things about a Tesla, without a single test drive.

Modus Operandi

[Anonymous Coward]

There's nothing wrong with the car that makes it fire prone... but we'll raise the clearance just because.

There's nothing wrong with the charger that caught fire... but we'll fix it anyway.

Seriously does anybody believe one word Musk says?

Re:Modus Operandi

[Anonymous Coward]

There's nothing wrong with the car that makes it fire prone... but we'll raise the clearance just because.

There's nothing wrong with the charger that caught fire... but we'll fix it anyway.

Seriously does anybody believe one word Musk says?

Musk is the God of the Hipsters. Do not question Him.

Re:Modus Operandi

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, not if you want to get flamed anyway

huehuehuehue

Re:Modus Operandi

[bluefoxlucid]

Maybe nothing was really wrong. Maybe the wiring sucks, the charger draws too much RMS power due to a dirty wave (Fattened with harmonics), the excess current causes overheating, etc. So rather than putting in a current detector or whatever else to detect faults, he just ... stuck in a thermal fuse. If it gets too hot, it shuts off.

Most hardware doesn't constantly draw that much power. It's really hard to screw up a transformer--the wall charger would just be a transformer and maybe a MOSFET-based rectifier or something else that can pass that much power. Thermal fuse--even a current fuse--is really a "this will never happen, but if anything does happen that creates any kind of bad situation, this will stop it. Whatever it is."

Re: Modus Operandi

[Anonymous Coward]

Rtfa it says house wiring, bad sloppy Slashdot editing makes it sound like the charger wiring is at fault

Re:Modus Operandi

[NatasRevol]

One fire? Out of how many, 30k cars?

Re:Modus Operandi

[Mashiki]

It's really hard to screw up a transformer--the wall charger would just be a transformer and maybe a MOSFET-based rectifier or something else that can pass that much power.

Well I guess that solves it. After all, all you need to do is slap in MOSFET's that are below quality, or capacitors that are filled with gunk(instead of electrolyte), instead of solid state and watch it melt and ooze all over itself. Pretty good chance of either one happening, and it's a fairly good possibility with either knock-off components or recycled components being marked as new and put back into the supply chain. This issue has been haunting PSU's for computers for years now, especially mid-range and the very cheap jobs.

Thermal fuse--even a current fuse--is really a "this will never happen, but if anything does happen that creates any kind of bad situation, this will stop it. Whatever it is."

Well that's great, until you run into the "thermal fuse really isn't a fuse" or the "current fuse" is actually a chunk of metal that's simply bridging the two points. Again see the issues with PSU's.

Re:Modus Operandi

[beelsebob]

Alternatively... it could be exactly as he said, the car was not fire prone (as borne out by the stats showing it had lower fire rates than other cars, and better outcomes when they did happen), and that the fire department agree that it was not caused by the charger.

Instead, it could simply be that even though they're working fine, there's way to mitigate the risk of other faulty things causing problems, and it's nice to do something towards that.

Honestly, I hate this aspect of the modern world –no one is allowed to improve something without implying that something was broken before hand, or that it was their fault that something else was broken.

Re:Modus Operandi

[Vanderhoth]

I was going to say, it's entirely possible the wiring in the wall was bad.

This is one possible scenario which has happened in the past. Maybe it was aluminum wiring, which has a much lower thermal expansion rate than copper. Back in the 70's it was really common for developers to use aluminum wiring in houses because it was cheaper than copper. My house had aluminum wiring. The previous owners of my house were really underhanded. They ran copper off the electrical box up in behind some insulation and connected it to the aluminum from junction hidden junction boxes, and because home inspectors don't do "destructive" inspections, meaning they don't even move insulation, we didn't find out until years after we had bought the house. We had a wall socket stop working and when I opened it up to see what was wrong I found the aluminum wire had completely detached from the terminals. Luckily my father-in-law, who doesn't live near by, is an electrician because we had to have the whole house rewired. It's still not illegal to use aluminum wiring, copper is recommended, but it's not requried. The higher temperature of the adapter could cause the aluminum wire to expand and pop off the plug terminals in the wall box, which can lead to arcing and fires.

It really wouldn't be Tesla's fault if developers were using cheap materials when building the house, but it is nice of them to do something to try and mitigate future issues after it becomes a known possibility. We can't account for every scenario that will ever occur, but we can learn as we go along.

Re: Modus Operandi

[Anonymous Coward]

Ah fuck, have all the engineers left Slashdot?

Hardly any major incident is the fault of an isolated piece of equipment - it's usually one or two things going wrong and then everything else reacting badly.

Like Postel said, Conservative in what you send - liberal in what you accept.

Any equipment which draws a large amount of current for a long time should be sensitive to the sort of things that can go wrong within the device, the load, and the source.

Tesla made an engineering error here. They won't ever admit to making a mistake, because Musk has the ego of a small planet - he thinks that just because he gets some things right (which he certainly does), he gets everything right.

Re:Modus Operandi

[mythosaz]

The math has been done in every previous thread. The fire rate for Teslas is something like 5x lower than normal cars -- but we'll see if that changes once they age.

Re:Modus Operandi

[Anonymous Coward]

Story says "about a half dozen". And these are not all fires. Smoldering, smoking chargers and wires; people getting burned when then touch molten insulation, etc.

If you're going to charge giant car batteries from your house wiring the house wiring needs to be 100%. Builder grade work is often not perfect. So buying a Tesla and plugging it in without getting a grown-up electrician to rework the wiring a Bad Idea, as some of these Tesla owners are discovering.

Next step; posh neighborhoods with multiple Teslas discover that neighborhood transformers do not have infinite capacity.

Re:Modus Operandi

[Anonymous Coward]

I approve of engineering for safety. Your device could be operating perfectly fine but you don't know about the quality of wiring at the customer's location.

Reminds me of my parent's place that had a breaker tripping regularly: a clothes dryer was drawing current well below the breaker label, but it was tripping anyway due to heat from corrosion on the copper wire at the breaker. Good.

Re:Modus Operandi

[Traze]

Only because Steve Jobs died.

Re:Modus Operandi

[rmdingler]

Indeed.

There's another common denominator in the construction or remodeling process. Occasionally a competent electrician is used, one who understands load calcs, amp draw, and wire sizing. Many more times than you would want to know about, you get the other kind of electrician.

Apprentices training on the public, contractors who have perennial negative cash flow problems, and workers right in the middle of not giving a damn.

Re:Modus Operandi

[Anonymous Coward]

There is likely some regulation that the solution has to meet, like a UL or ETL standard. The parts used in those solutions have to be already UL approved or have to go through exhaustive testing. Its much easier to grab an off-the-shelf solution that already meets the regulation, they could get away with just paperwork on a revision and could skip re-testing.

Re:Modus Operandi

[Algae_94]

Indeed.

There's another common denominator in the construction or remodeling process. Occasionally a competent electrician is used, one who understands load calcs, amp draw, and wire sizing. Many more times than you would want to know about, you get the other kind of electrician.

Apprentices training on the public, contractors who have perennial negative cash flow problems, and workers right in the middle of not giving a damn.

the issue Vanderhoth mentions is way beyond a matter of competency. It was extremely unethical and possibly criminal endangerment. The exposed junction boxes were rigged up with hidden junctions (which are not up to code) in an attempt to hide all traces of Aluminum wiring, while still having the entire house wired with Aluminum. The Aluminum wiring is not a problem per se, but any junction with copper wires (like in those hidden junction boxes) can cause galvanic corrosion. The fact that the copper wires just came loose here shows that improper connections were made. Aluminum wire connections have been implicated in fires and hazard insurance will either not cover a home with aluminum wiring or the rates will be higher. If there was a fire, his insurer would probably try to not pay any claims because the wiring was misrepresented to them.

The real issue is whether an electrician follows the building code or not. The building code specs out basic things like gauge of wire for circuit breaker size, number of outlets, types of connections, etc. If an electrician follows the code, they will never have to really do any calculations to ensure proper wiring is done.

Re:Modus Operandi

[Rob the Bold]

There's nothing wrong with the car that makes it fire prone... but we'll raise the clearance just because.

There's nothing wrong with the charger that caught fire... but we'll fix it anyway.

Seriously does anybody believe one word Musk says?

Engineers: People who, when finding out that their system might fail in your horrifically substandard conditions, attempt to address the problem present in your conditions and incorporate that knowledge of those conditions into the system, both in your version and the future.

Re:Modus Operandi

[rmdingler]

The real issue is whether an electrician follows the building code or not. The building code specs out basic things like gauge of wire for circuit breaker size, number of outlets, types of connections, etc. If an electrician follows the code, they will never have to really do any calculations to ensure proper wiring is done.

Sure. But. Calculations are still required for amp draw per circuit (which determines wire size and breaker ampacity), particularly when a specialty appliance has the unique demands of an electric car charger.

With regard to new construction, codes are followed religiously precisely because city inspections are required.

Remodels are a horse of another color.

Re:Modus Operandi

[Anonymous Coward]

Not exactly... Tesla Model S has 4x lower risk of fire so far compared to 10-year-old on average cars, but at least 10x higher risk of fire in a collision (only 3% of gas cars catch fire in a collision).

Re:Modus Operandi

[icebike]

It really wouldn't be Tesla's fault if developers were using cheap materials when building the house, but it is nice of them to do something to try and mitigate future issues after it becomes a known possibility. We can't account for every scenario that will ever occur, but we can learn as we go along.

And that is exactly what happened in this case, the problem was inside the junction box. (Not saying aluminum was used).

That Tesla can detect it in their charge adapter is great. I hope it sounds the car horn rather than simply stops charging. After all who knows how many upstream junction boxes were also over-heating from bad connections? Who knows what size breaker they decided to put in the main panel when the original one tripped?

Would it have been better if this had been thought of ahead of time? Probably.
But lets check all the other hybrid/electric cars and their chargers before we jealously hang Tesla out to dry.

Re:Modus Operandi

[petermgreen]

Of course putting overheat protection in the charger plug only reduces the problem it doesn't solve it. It's perfectly possible for the wiring at the outlet to be just fine while further back in the circuit there is a bad connection or undersized wire.

Re:Modus Operandi

[Firethorn]

Sure. But. Calculations are still required for amp draw per circuit (which determines wire size and breaker ampacity), particularly when a specialty appliance has the unique demands of an electric car charger.

Not really any math above addition, and possibly even that if they're running a dedicated circuit for the specialty appliance like they're supposed to. The electrician memorizes some figures/looks at a chart. Heck, I've seen the figures printed on the boxes.

NEMA 5-15(standard outlet): 14 gauge minimum(copper), 15A* max, 12A design
NEMA 5-20(has the notch): 12 gauge minumum, 20A max, 16A design
NEMA 14-30(dryer, 240V): 10 gauge, 30A max, 24A design
NEMA 14-50(range, 240V): 6 gauge, 50A max, 40A design.

The 'formula' for simple installs is easy: Look at the amperage of the product you're using. round UP to the next breaker size. Use specified wire gauge. Manufacturers tend to make this even easier because they tend to not produce appliances that are close enough in amp ratings that you'd need to skip the next largest breaker - IE they don't make appliances that use 'exactly' 30A, they'll produce a <24A model then if you need heavier duty a 32-40A one.

Though I'll note that space heaters and hair dryers today tend to assume that you have a 20A circuit, but there's reasons why the heaters are limited to 1500 watts and dryers to 1875(but they're only this powerful if you feed them 125V, nice advertising guys! In reality they'll be closer to 1.6kw in homes with proper voltage).

*Though to meet code it has to be manufactured to be capable of safe operation at 20A+

Re:Modus Operandi

[Firethorn]

As I understand it they put some logic in to detect power 'stutters' that are likely to come from an overheating, failing connection.

Re:Modus Operandi

[VanessaE]

> Next step; posh neighborhoods with multiple Teslas discover that electric companies will eventually upgrade the grid to compensate for rising demand as there is money to be made from selling more power.
FTFY.

Re:Modus Operandi

[Kilo Kilo]

Engineers: People who, when finding out that their system might fail in your horrifically substandard conditions, attempt to address the problem present in your conditions and incorporate that knowledge of those conditions into the system, both in your version and the future.

Thank you. The engineer bashing in the rest of the thread is disturbing.

I would probably be doing much of the same if I were in Musk's shoes. I'm a mechanical engineer and I design fire engines. Our products can literally be the difference between life and death and are used and abused for 20+ years. When something like this happens, we usually go overboard to address the problem, even if it was completely the user's fault and unlikely to happen ever again.

Why? Because this is what the customer will remember. Especially in a market like the automotive industry where a customer can go buy a very similar product from a different brand (I know Tesla doesn't have many competitors, but it will at some point) you want to kiss the customer's ass so that they will buy another one.

Re:Modus Operandi

[Anonymous Coward]

The higher temperature of the adapter could cause the aluminum wire to expand and pop off the plug terminals in the wall box, which can lead to arcing and fires.

That's not the mode of failure for aluminum wire. It has to do with oxidation. I lived with aluminum wire for years. My whole neighborhood had it. Those houses are still there today.

Re:Modus Operandi

[viperidaenz]

In this case though, it's dodgy house wiring in the wall socket that is caching fire, not able to handle a constant high current that it is supposed to be rated for.

Bravo, Tesla

[fnj]

I'll get in before the nutjob Tesla detractors.

This is a very responsible move by Tesla which takes guts. They are changing the charger design to ameliorate a problem that has nothing to do with the car and nothing to do with the charger and everything to do with the house wiring. Obviously the nutjobs will point their skinny little fingers and accuse Tesla of papering over their own flaw, which is a lie.

Re:Bravo, Tesla

[Anonymous Coward]

This move is the result of lawyers at tesla. It's in stark contrast to musk shooting his mouth off that everything is completely fine and it's not teslas fault at all because tesla is perfect and there's nothing wrong anywhere with it.

Elon needs to start talking to the legal department and marketing people BEFORE he opens his mouth. This will help tesla greatly.

Re:Bravo, Tesla

[lgw]

This is the upside of new technologies being marketed first to the wealthy. Low-end products don't do fixes or recalls unless the lawsuits are expected to exceed the cost of the fix, which makes progress slow. High-end products must care more about reputation than that, so things get improved even when the company's not at fault, because sales are so tied to "good overall experience". That makes progress fast.

If Tesla does start selling a 30-40k car, it will benefit from all these "lessons learned", which might well have been ignored for years if they had started with a low-end product.

Re:Bravo, Tesla

[Jah-Wren Ryel]

Obviously the nutjobs will point their skinny little fingers and accuse Tesla of papering over their own flaw, which is a lie.

Elon? Is that you?

Re:Bravo, Tesla

[Anonymous Coward]

I have a friend who's an electrician and from the stories he tells many/most places he visits have something wrong with them. Even calls he gets to go out and install something new and there's no reported issues seem to have at least 1 thing he can point to that doesn't meet "code". If Tesla's design doesn't account for this then personally I'd count that as a flaw, but go ahead, keep thinking it's not Tesla's problem to fix...

Re:Bravo, Tesla

[Shatrat]

If Tesla's design doesn't account for this then personally I'd count that as a flaw, but go ahead, keep thinking it's not Tesla's problem to fix... If Tesla's design doesn't account for this then personally I'd count that as a flaw, but go ahead, keep thinking it's not Tesla's problem to fix...

So the price of every new Tesla should include a certified electrician auditing and correcting the wiring in the owners house?
Maybe all car companies should also bundle mandatory driving lessons. A large number of drivers are morons, and the designs should account for that.

Re:Bravo, Tesla

[LordLimecat]

Im sort of at a loss for why theres so much media hate for Tesla. Musk is a VERY successful businessman (which appeals to people who tend to be on the right), but his business is also a huge "cause" for people who tend to be on the left; he makes a car thats environmentally friendly, but its also sporty.

Im really not clear what the angle is that makes Tesla such a problem.

Re:Bravo, Tesla

[Anonymous Psychopath]

I have a friend who's an electrician and from the stories he tells many/most places he visits have something wrong with them. Even calls he gets to go out and install something new and there's no reported issues seem to have at least 1 thing he can point to that doesn't meet "code". If Tesla's design doesn't account for this then personally I'd count that as a flaw, but go ahead, keep thinking it's not Tesla's problem to fix...

Tesla could just modify their charger so that if the wiring isn't done right, your garage won't burn down due to your electrician's negligence. Which is what they've done. So...?

Re:Bravo, Tesla

[Onuma]

Good point. Most home owners don't even know the condition of the wiring in their homes. I recently purchased and found out that the wiring in my place is all sorts of wacky...while I don't have the cash to fix it all now, I make sure to not overload any one circuit in the meanwhile.

If this thing were hooked up to my house, it'd probably be in cinders (the house, not necessarily the charger).

Re:Bravo, Tesla

[Anonymous Coward]

Designing your product for a nonexistent ideal world rather than the real world does mean it has a flaw. Matter how much Elon wants to say otherwise.

Re:Bravo, Tesla

[PopeRatzo]

A large number of drivers are morons, and the designs should account for that.

Would you say the same thing about computers and operating systems?

I'm not challenging you, I'm just asking because I wonder if there's a place in the market for products that are for early adopters who are not morons.

I don't mind products that expect me to learn a little something, and I doubt I'm really that exceptional. I wonder if "It has to be made idiot-proof" is just an excuse to keep certain products and tools out of the hands of consumers.

Re:Bravo, Tesla

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh Dear Lord! The things I have seen. "At least 1 thing" is true. Usually a lot more. This year, so far, in 3 houses:

• #20 telephone wire used in place of #14 NM (non-metallic) for a light fixture.
• A circuit breaker that was not pushed in all the way, causing the blade in the panel to melt.
• NM cable run under the carpet.
• Flexible conduit spliced together with electrical tape - outdoors.
• A house with only one outside receptacle, in the soffit, with the box being not properly attached to anything.
• A house where someone had removed a light fixture and left the live wires exposed.
• Someone used a copper ferrule (a hollow cylinder that you put both wires through, then crimp shut, commonly used for connecting grounds together) to connect a copper wire to an aluminum wire. The corrosion was as bad as you would expect.
• Electrical tape used in place of wire nuts. It was loose and falling off.
• And a whole bunch of less dangerous things, such as wire nuts in the panel, loose wires in the panel, multiple wires under one terminal, plastic boxes modified for surface mount use, exposed NM, miswired 3-ways, etc.

And to remain on topic, if the fire started inside the wall socket, the problem was not with the charger.

Re:Bravo, Tesla

[Anonymous Coward]

My guess would be jealousy, since he's way closer to building an arc reactor and becoming Iron Man than they are.

Re:Bravo, Tesla

[Anonymous Coward]

"So the price of every new Tesla should include..."

Thread prize for least well disguised straw man.

The price of every new Tesla should include equipment which takes account of real-world wiring rather than ideal.

Tesla wanted to make a business out of a car which could be supplied energy from far less well-controlled sources than traditional gas cars. It wouldn't have taken five minutes to realise that this means they can't just assume everything is up to modern spec.

Or, as a more general engineering rule, everything should fail gracefully rather than blame something else. Hence the replacements, which are recalls to reflect a deficiency in the original design. Yeah, I've never built a successful electric car, but as an EE who has to take home wiring into consideration for certain products, this kind of thing would have been early in the requirements list.

Re:Bravo, Tesla

[Anonymous Coward]

Or maybe there's just legitimate criticism and your bias means you see it as "hate".

Part of the problem with Tesla is that Musk refuses to admit to faults. It is and always has been the job of good journalism to take would-be kings down a notch. This isn't hatred - it's much needed attitude readjustment. If Tesla were a nobody (in particular, if he did not successfully seek publicity), or if he were honest, then he wouldn't receive the attention he does.

Re:Bravo, Tesla

[Anonymous Coward]

Thread prize for least well disguised straw man.

You're the one who complained about home wiring being Tesla's problem to fix.

There's no way for them to guarantee a fix without a professional certification.

The price of every new Tesla should include equipment which takes account of real-world wiring rather than ideal.

Do you have any evidence that their equipment follows this "ideal" rather than the real-world?

Tesla wanted to make a business out of a car which could be supplied energy from far less well-controlled sources than traditional gas cars.

That's cute. You think gasoline is a controlled source? Race car drivers have problems with getting clean gas, and you think that commercial gas stations are any better?

It wouldn't have taken five minutes to realise that this means they can't just assume everything is up to modern spec.

Or, as a more general engineering rule, everything should fail gracefully rather than blame something else.

So therefore, the home wiring which is failing, should???

Oh wait, you're not holding *them* to any standard, just hyperfocusing on Tesla.

Hence the replacements, which are recalls to reflect a deficiency in the original design. Yeah, I've never built a successful electric car, but as an EE who has to take home wiring into consideration for certain products, this kind of thing would have been early in the requirements list.

It's not a deficiency in the design. It's a concern in the real world, and more from hysteria than reality.

People who are worried about their house wiring not being up to performing for an electric car...should fucking get that fixed before something causes their house to burn down, not look for a bandaid.

Re:Bravo, Tesla

[Anonymous Coward]

You're the one who complained about home wiring being Tesla's problem to fix.

No: I'm new to this thread, and nobody said that home wiring should be fixed by Tesla.

Do you have any evidence that their equipment follows this "ideal" rather than the real-world?

Yes: the burning, the discovery of lack of thermal fuse, and the subsequent replacement of chargers.

That's cute. You think gasoline is a controlled source?

I think that commercial gas and most gas stations are better maintained than the average residential home, yes.

Race car drivers have problems with getting clean gas, and you think that commercial gas stations are any better?

We're not discussing race car requirements. Another straw man.

So therefore, the home wiring which is failing, should???

Oh wait, you're not holding *them* to any standard, just hyperfocusing on Tesla.

The fault lies on both ends.

Welcome to the profession of engineering. Everyone's responsible for their own shit and making sure it fails gracefully. Nobody gets to say, "But mom HE started it!"

It's not a deficiency in the design. It's a concern in the real world, and more from hysteria than reality.

What are you blathering on about? The design has been established as deficient, and replacements issued. This followed several cases of smouldering and at least one fire was discovered. There is no hysterical behaviour: a fault was found and a fix was issued. The only remaining problem is Musk refusing to admit to the design deficiency.

People who are worried about their house wiring not being up to performing for an electric car...should fucking get that fixed before something causes their house to burn down, not look for a bandaid.

Yes, they should. This isn't mutually exclusive with Tesla's deficient engineering. It's like an army of straw men.

Re:Bravo, Tesla

[Anonymous Coward]

If there wasn't a problem there would be nothing to fix.

In the real world, wiring isn't ideal. Tesla was wrong not to take that into account before. It is good that they are fixing their oversight now.

Re:Bravo, Tesla

[iceperson]

Perhaps the cost of owning a Tesla should include lost wages from quitting your job to go to school to get an EE degree, tearing down your existing home, and rebuilding a new one and doing all the wiring yourself so you can sleep at night not worrying about the charger for your new car starting a fire and burning you and your family alive.

Re:Bravo, Tesla

[Anonymous Coward]

Fuck you!

Re:Bravo, Tesla

[AaronW]

Actually as the owner of a Tesla, Tesla has been very proactive at fixing problems and treating their customers well. Unlike a lot of car manufacturers, Tesla tends to be proactive about things. I had a number of minor issues due to my car being one of the earlier VINs and they have always fixed the issues without giving me the run-around like I've gotten at other dealerships.

The fact that Elon talks before consulting his lawyers is a breath of fresh air.

Re:Bravo, Tesla

[AaronW]

They actually did this. The software in the car tries to detect if there are voltage fluctuations caused by home wiring and to reduce the current if they're detected. They rolled out these changes within 48 hours of the house fire, presumably after going through the extensive logs that the car keeps.

Re:Bravo, Tesla

[AaronW]

I found a number of issues in my own house. Splices with no box, boxes buried inside the wall, missing boxes, romex run outside the wall, 20A breakers used for 15A circuits (14 gauge wire), shared neutral circuits without tying the breakers together, etc. I have gone back and fixed all the issues. I have basically gone back and had to fix just about everything that the previous owners of my house had done electrically.

Re:Bravo, Tesla

[Anonymous Coward]

Really? I hope not. When they try to convince people out on a farm to buy one of these cars, that will frustrate the heck out of them. Even light bulbs recommended for farm use are good to 130 volts, because voltages tend to swing a LOT (+/- 20 VAC isn't unusual from when I lived out in the boonies, in a new house that actually had an electrical inspector check the wiring, unlike most of the homes built) out in the country due to distances and the varying loads farm equipment puts on transformers.

Re:Bravo, Tesla

[petermgreen]

Tesla could just modify their charger so that if the wiring isn't done right, your garage won't burn down due to your electrician's negligence.

No they can modify it so a subset of things that could be wrong with your wiring will be less hazardous.

Not saying that is a bad thing but there are many things they can't do anything about. Fundamentally it's impossible to reliablly detect undersized cables. You can look for heat at the outlet but the situation at the outlet may be ok either because it's in a better thermal situation than other wiring in the circuit (required cable sizes go up massively for cables burried in thick thermal insulation) or the circuit may change wiring sizes part way along.

I do wonder if tesla should have made this cable at all or if they should have stuck to the very slow emergency charging cable and the proffessionally installed charging stations (where presumablly the electrician installing it checks things right back to the supply intake point).

Re:Bravo, Tesla

[Anonymous Coward]

I'll get in before the nutjob Tesla detractors.

This is a very responsible move by Tesla which takes guts. They are changing the charger design to ameliorate a problem that has nothing to do with the car and nothing to do with the charger and everything to do with the house wiring. Obviously the nutjobs will point their skinny little fingers and accuse Tesla of papering over their own flaw, which is a lie.

And not testing this thoroughly before putting it on the market, is idiotic.

The other fires are clearly from severe accidents, or intentional testing. Having known this, I would add..

This is clearly a company that rushed the details. This is also an attempt by big auto makers to destroy the companies reputation.

Tesla isn't doing themselves any favors either, when your labeling a car with an unrealistic crash rating, and then coming out denying your equipment had anything to do with a garage fire, to then releasing a new charging system, that should have been rigorously tested prior to being released.

My point is Idiot Musk needs to shut the fuck up, and stop jacking-off his ego. He is an investor, not the "maker" of the car, and clearly has no idea how to properly implement testing of any and all equipment, I do not want to hear the excuse "live and learn" when you need look no further the history.

Re:Bravo, Tesla

[mutube]

Absolutelty. My house is wired so that when I plug in a high load device it electrocutes the neighbours kids. One of them nearly died when I got my new 8 slice toaster, I dread to think what would happen if I plugged in a car?!

Tesla should be ashamed of themselves!

Re:Bravo, Tesla

[aXis100]

I can think of one easy way - measure the no-load AC voltage as a baseline, then continue measuring the voltage as the current is increased. If the voltage drop is beyond a certain tolerance then that means there is some series resistance in the wiring somewhere and this is indicative of undersized wiring or poor junctions.

Re:Bravo, Tesla

[Anonymous Coward]

So, they should admit there was a problem in their design.

That's really the issue here as I see it.

Tesla, and some of their vocal supporters, refuse to admit any problems with Tesla design, even after the various fires that have happened.

Yes, it's not entirely their fault, but they do share some of the blame. It would be gratifying to hear Tesla admit that.

Re:Bravo, Tesla

[Anonymous Coward]

shared neutral circuits without tying the breakers together

I've seen everything you listed above, but the one I quoted is the one that scared the shit out of me. The guy wiring that house was an idiot. One circuit he didn't connect any grounds. The wire was there. The hardware all had ground connections. He just didn't bother to connect them. WTF? I know those old guys didn't believe in grounds, but that's just stupid lazy. There's a few things I like about living in a newer house (1984). Decent wiring is one of them.

Re:Bravo, Tesla

[metaforest]

So the price of every new Tesla should include a certified electrician auditing and correcting the wiring in the owners house?
Maybe all car companies should also bundle mandatory driving lessons. A large number of drivers are morons, and the designs should account for that.

Actually the Tesla solution was to modify the firmware in the charging system to detect line-sag as the load ramps up. This test is a strong indicator of bad wiring or a substandard mains circuit because when a feed has excessive resistance (bad wiring or corroded junctions).

The way the test works(roughly) is this:
1. measure the voltage at the plug with no load; If voltage out of spec then terminate the charge process and signal error.
2. Increase load gradually; at each step measure the voltage sag. There is a well known and easily calculated relationship between current load and the voltage drop. If at any time the measured curve deviates from the nominal curve by too much then terminate the charge, or fall back to a more conservative charge rate; report an error.
3. While charging at a fixed rate monitor the current and source voltage at all times. If the voltage droops reduce the load and see if it recovers. If it doesn't recover this indicates that the mains voltage may have fluctuated. If it does recover that indicates an unexpected increase in resistance.
4. measure temp at the plug connector if it exceeds a set-point that indicates unexpected heating of the socket or connector. Terminate the charge and signal an alarm.

tl;dr:
a. Tesla's charging system no longer assumes that the customer's wiring meets code, or is in good order.
b. By continuously measuring voltage and current, and changing the current, in the load circuit the system can determine the resistance of the wiring. If it is too high or changes unexpectedly, the system will terminate the charge, and signal a fault.
c. A hardware change adds temperature sensing to the NEMA connector on their cable. This allows quick detection of overheating in a wall socket.
d. No other appliance in your home does this.

Re:Bravo, Tesla

[petermgreen]

The problem is that won't tell you the difference between a long cable of the right size and a short cable that is too thin.

Expensive but they take care of you

[steveha]

Tesla cars are really expensive, but they keep doing things like this. "Worried about the battery catching on fire? Okay, we will insure you against that for no additional charge. Worried about your garage charger catching on fire? Okay, we will give you an upgraded charger for free."

Anyone with a Tesla car is an early adopter, and paying a lot for the privilege. But Tesla really is doing their part to take care of the early adopter customers.

And this is why their overall strategy is brilliant. Start at the high end of the market, make money while building technology and infrastructure, and then come out with a new-gen car that costs less. Meanwhile they have fewer customers to take care of when issues like this pop up, and they have the money to just deal with it.

I can't wait until Tesla hits the Ford/Honda price level.

Re:Expensive but they take care of you

[rolfwind]

Will that be anytime soon though?

My impression is that the most expensive part of the car are the batteries (probably costing more alone than a low end Honda) and from the charts I've seen, we've barely double energy density since 1990, despite all the rage portable computing and phones and other devices that have undoubtedly poured money into this market.

http://www.akbars.net/images/battery%20energy%20density.png

I think a series hybrid built off of the same concepts as a diesel electric train is feasible and worthwhile, bringing to the table the ability to have a small battery and small generator ICE to overcome all the limitations of a low battery energy density, ability to fuel fast, and the need to size an ICE to maximum acceleration load rather than average load.

Re:Expensive but they take care of you

[steveha]

My impression is that the most expensive part of the car are the batteries (probably costing more alone than a low end Honda)

As I understand it, yeah, the most expensive part is the battery. Electric motors are not that expensive.

I'm pretty confident that battery costs will come down significantly. Even if no significant technology advances come along to help, battery costs should come down as demand picks up and production scales up.

http://tech.fortune.cnn.com/2013/11/04/electric-car-batteries/

An electric car has a major up-front cost, but then low cost of operation (electricity is cheaper than gasoline) and low cost of maintenance (electric cars are simpler than conventional cars: no transmission, no radiator, etc.). If fracking hadn't driven the cost of gasoline down, electric cars might be in higher demand right now. Especially where I live, because we have cheap hydro electric power.

Re:Expensive but they take care of you

[couchslug]

Compare and contrast with Ford and their defective cruise control switches which WERE their fault and to which design they clung to for many years despite losing many vehicles to fire.

Good for Tesla. This response is to their credit. A 50-amp outlet is sufficient to run high-draw items such as welders, let alone a car charger, but bad shit can happen if they aren't done properly. Tesla are going over the top to protect their customers from the consequence of improper wiring by third parties.

Re:Expensive but they take care of you

[PopeRatzo]

Will that be anytime soon though?

It doesn't have to be soon. Because other companies will start offering electric cars at lower prices until they are on parity with internal combustion cars.

Already, hybrids have become barely more expensive than old-fashioned cars.

And there are some bad-ass hybrids out there, including offerings from Ferrari, McLaren, BMW (the i8...WOW!) and Porsche (918).

Whether you go low-end or high, there are hybrids and plug-in hybrids all across the spectrum. They're not doing this because people want them. These are sought-after vehicles.

Re:Expensive but they take care of you

[guruevi]

Currently the highest cost of the car is the design and the people behind it. There have only been maybe 5000 of them made and the development is at what now over 5 years? Paying 10 executives and 100's of designers and engineers (these aren't minimum wage line jobs) in one of the most expensive parts of the country for 5 years. Plus they have a bunch of things that they have invested in way in the beginning that didn't work on. I can remember them licensing Honda for the batteries and Lotus for their Elise design both of which basically weren't good enough for their requirements.

Re:Expensive but they take care of you

[PopeRatzo]

correction: "They're not doing this because people don't want them."

Re:Expensive but they take care of you

[Kjella]

The key to selling cheaper cars is more charging stations, due to some extremely strong tax incentives here in Norway last year electric cars had a 5.5% market share, 1.3% of that is Tesla though they only delivered from September to December but the really big winner around here is Nissan Leaf. They're half the price of the base model Tesla and a third of the top model, they have much shorter range but because there's so many and so many chargers they can do commutes and the occasional longer trips even though it's awkward. People seem to prefer that to getting a rental for the exceptions.

I'm actually eyeing a Tesla myself, the current tax breaks are almost too good to be true. Not very relevant to the people in the US I guess, but here it's a high end luxury/sports car sold at middle class prices - it competes with models that cost ~$40k in the US, not ~$80k which puts it in reach of more ordinary people. A lot of people have figured this is their "now or never" moment to have a 300+ hp car which otherwise costs an arm and a leg here. I'm holding out a little longer though until all the version 1.0 bugs have been worked out.

Re:Expensive but they take care of you

[AaronW]

They've been pretty good about fixing the early problems. They've gone back and fixed all of the issues I've had with my 5K VIN number with their current cars and now offer a few features that were not available when I got mine (i.e. parking sensors). They've also raised their prices and a lot of options on my car now cost extra (i.e. $500 for fog lights).

Re: Expensive but they take care of you

[Anonymous Coward]

I think you meant "if cap-n-trade" hadn't been defeated. Like, Solyndra would be profitable, the way subsidised corn farming is, etc.

Re:Expensive but they take care of you

[Anonymous Coward]

ORNL researchers recently came out with all solid (no electrolyte) sulfur based batteries which outperform lion batteries by far. Only a matter of time.

Re:Expensive but they take care of you

[Anonymous Coward]

Which explains why hybrid owners are the least likely population group to purchase a hybrid as their next car, amirite?

Re:Expensive but they take care of you

[Firethorn]

There have only been maybe 5000 of them made and the development is at what now over 5 years?

25k as of December, actually.

25k@$100k per gives you $2.5B in sales. Plus I just read an article about Tesla selling ZEV credits to the other manufacturers...

I can remember them licensing Honda for the batteries and Lotus for their Elise design both of which basically weren't good enough for their requirements.

The Elise frame was a deliberate design decision - it allowed them to release a car without having to design a body, allowing them to concentrate on the drive train, battery packs, etc... Also, I thought it was the opposite way round on the batteries?

Step 1: motor, battery pack, controller, interior (Roadster)
Step 2: As step 1 but the frame too, spread of charging stations/support infrastructure (Model S)
Step 3? Build a battery factory...

Re:Expensive but they take care of you

[Anonymous Coward]

whats early about it, electric cars have been around since the nineteen teens

Re:Expensive but they take care of you

[PopeRatzo]

I know. Those stupid, stupid car companies like BMW, Ferrari, Mercedes.

I'm sure they won't be around long because obviously they don't know what they're doing, making all those new hybrid models.

Amirite?

Re:Expensive but they take care of you

[Anonymous Coward]

whats early about it, electric cars have been around since the nineteen teens

Cute, but those cars are not at all comparable to a modern car. Range on a single charge, safety, performance... whole different ball park.

A Tesla is a much more complex device than a car from 100+ years ago, and the chargers are more complex.

A Tesla battery pack has high enough energy density that it can burn furiously if punctured. On the other hand, the batteries from 100 years ago could leak acid on you if the batteries were punctured.

http://electricvehiclesnews.com/History/historyearly.htm

Quality?

[Anonymous Coward]

"Occasionally the wiring isn't done right" --- ?!?!?! Seriously?

Re:Quality?

[bluefoxlucid]

I bought a house. Yes, seriously. I opened the walls. There was buzzing, instability, etc. The wiring was fucking wrong, twisted the wrong way (it came loose when the screws on the fixtures were tightened, so was buzzing under load), 14ga on 20A circuits (12ga is required or it catches fire), etc. My 20A appliance loop in the kitchen has 15A receptacles because, heyyyyyyy, you're not really going to draw 20A out of these right? Those 2000 watt appliances don't go on a 20A loop that can pass 2200 watts... I use a Breville 1800W toaster oven drawing over 16A through one receptacle. One 15A receptacle on 20A wiring.

Re:Quality?

[sandytaru]

Older houses from the mid 20th century may have aluminum wiring, which turned out to be a really bad idea. They tried it because the cost of copper was going up and the cost of aluminum was going down, but it turns out that the properties of the two metals are different and the aluminum wires performed really poorly over time.

Re: Quality?

[Moheeheeko]

There is a man, lets call him Keith. Keith thinks that repair men and contractors are overpriced, and decides he can do it himself. He does this, and it works...for now.

Re:Quality?

[Man On Pink Corner]

Clearly, you have never purchased or rented a house that was rewired by a doctor.

Re:Quality?

[YoungManKlaus]

... and this is why 230V is better ;)

Re:Quality?

[james_shoemaker]

My house had 14ga on 30A circuit breakers, the guy I bought it from bragged it never popped a breaker.

Re:Quality?

[TimTucker]

My 20A appliance loop in the kitchen has 15A receptacles because, heyyyyyyy, you're not really going to draw 20A out of these right? Those 2000 watt appliances don't go on a 20A loop that can pass 2200 watts... I use a Breville 1800W toaster oven drawing over 16A through one receptacle. One 15A receptacle on 20A wiring.

Most 15A receptacles are rated for 20A pass-through, so they should be perfectly fine to use on a 20A line. The only time you should need a 20A receptacle is if you have a single device with a 20A T-shape plug.

Re:Quality?

[Hognoxious]

I found some steel wire in ours. The conductors were about three times the thickness that copper ones usually are.

I was changing a switch and it took two of us, a jemmy and a car jack to bend the sodding wires to the right shape,

Re:Quality?

[Anonymous Coward]

Clearly, you have never purchased or rented a house that was rewired by a doctor.

Lets see, I just put a suture here, staple that flappy thing in place, and stitch this red one to the socket. I don't see what all the fuss was about, this is just like an artery transplant.

Re: Quality?

[NatasRevol]

Hi Keith!

Re:Quality?

[YoungManKlaus]

well, I am pretty sure they are not replicated atom-by-atom but manufactured, so there is a chance to screw up. Could be something simple like a screw not being tightened 100% in some rare cases (there could literally be a thousand reasons for causing this) -> does not show up during testing, but in bad circumstances it could happen that the connection heats up (because the contact point is small).

Actually I had a case like that, eventhough the socket was securely fixed in the wall with no wiggle room or anything and installed to the specs (I remember that I screwed everything in place extremely tightly and had it checked by a pro). Anyhow, I suddenly lost power on that one outlet. Upon investigating I discovered that the neutral wire had slipped out of the screwmount and I was like "dafuq? how could that happen?". I think the reason was that I run the outlet at high currents at times (toaster -> draw full / idle / repeat) which could have caused heat/cold cycles in turn loosening the screw (though that should only happen if the connection was bad in the first place - eg. because dirty contacts), which would also work out with the time of failure (15 minutes after using toaster).

Re:Quality?

[confused one]

When I bought my house, the home inspector found a couple of wiring issues, which were fixed by the previous owner prior to closing. Since then I have found several more that I corrected. It's not uncommon to find miswired circuits, incorrectly sized circuits or poor connections. Because of the way circuit breakers work and the way circuits are typically loaded, a wiring problem can go unnoticed for decades. Then you plug in a load on a 120V 15A circuit that draws 12 or 15 amps continuously for several hours and a bad connection makes itself known.

Re: Quality?

[mr_zorg]

> Most 15A receptacles are rated for 20A pass-through, so they should be perfectly fine to use on a 20A line.

Really? Then why, pray tell, are they called 15A receptacles?

Re:Quality?

[Anonymous Coward]

This is absolutely correct. Mod parent up!

Re: Quality?

[ckthorp]

Because you can pull 15A from one of them? The requirement for using 15A outlets on a 20A breaker is that there be more than one outlet.

Re: Quality?

[Anonymous Psychopath]

There is a man, lets call him Keith. Keith thinks that repair men and contractors are overpriced, and decides he can do it himself. He does this, and it works...for now.

Keith does good work. Sometimes he even has it inspected and passes. Mostly, it's not that hard.

Re: Quality?

[Iniamyen]

So if I have a single appliance that uses between 15A and 20A, I shouldn't plug it into my 20A circuit? Huh? How am I supposed to use my vacuum?

Re: Quality?

[thegarbz]

And none the less what Keith did is illegal in many other countries. It was made illegal because while Keith had his wiring inspected he was only a 1 in 1000 who did so.

Wiring is not hard at all. Knowing all the codes and having the patience to do something properly without cutting corners is quite hard. If you're not electrically minded then a "she'll be right" can quickly turn into burning your house down.

"Why does the wire going to the Tesla need to be twice the size of every other wire in the house? I can run my entire house on those other wires!"

Re: Quality?

[ckthorp]

It's because your vacuum lies. That giant "18A" (or whatever) printed on the side is mostly marketing fluff. Also, even if it really does draw 18A, the duty cycle plays a big roll in the safety. Heating is a function of current and time. That's (one reason) why a lot of appliances say "household use only" -- the cord isn't sized heavy enough for high duty cycle use. That's part of why a 15A hair dryer can use 18 gauge lamp cord.

Re:Quality?

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, no shit, Sherlock. Of course it's not going to pop a breaker if the short circuit current is limited by the wiring. Ask yourself this question: Do you want to live in a house where the breaker protects the wires and the house, or the other way around?

Re:Quality?

[couchslug]

""Occasionally the wiring isn't done right" --- ?!?!?! Seriously?"

Residential wiring doesn't have rigorous quality control checks and is frequently as fucked up as a concrete bicycle.

Browse home inspector horror stories for pics of some of the worse examples, then remember very few homes are inspected by pros after construction.

Re:Quality?

[rmdingler]

I don't know what a jemmy is, but it sounds like a tool of last resort.

For us, a request for the force multiplier will get a hammer in your hand.

Re:Quality?

[Anonymous Coward]

Old house wiring can be... "interesting" is the word I'm looking for. Probably "done right" in 1930 or whenever it was installed, but not according to current standards.

And it can age badly.

For example: a house I once lived in had rubber insulated wiring. Over time, rubber goes hard and brittle and starts to crack. If it gets wet in this state - say, for example, near a bathroom fan that vents into the roof space - then it can begin to form a nice little short. So, whenever we showered for too long, a fuse would blow (literally an old fashioned black bakelite block with a fuse wire). Combine that with corroded brass (at least I think that's what it was: definitely not copper in any case) junction boxes that made the lights flicker at random times and bare-earth wiring (old Australian standard apparently) and you have a case of "wiring not done right for practical purposes".

Re:Quality?

[Kaenneth]

My Dad did the wiring in our house. He also did wiring inspection for Boeing.

I don't fly.

Re:Quality?

[james_shoemaker]

The first thing I did was re-wire the place.

Re:Quality?

[Anonymous Coward]

If that's true in your country, then I no longer wonder why Tesla needs to work around bad electrical installations. You see, the problem with putting a 15A outlet on a 20A circuit is that it violates the cardinal rule in electrical wiring: You put a fuse wherever you go from thicker wire to thinner wire. A slightly worse solution is to put a fuse that matches the thinnest wire on the circuit. Then you have a 15A circuit with some 20A wiring and 15A sockets. 20A through-rating doesn't add anything in that situation, does it? That can only be "useful" if you fuse for 20A, but then the 15A socket isn't protected properly. The fuse will not trip before you've gone far beyond the socket's rating. So don't do that.

Re: Quality?

[adolf]

So if I have a single appliance that uses between 15A and 20A, I shouldn't plug it into my 20A circuit? Huh? How am I supposed to use my vacuum?

An appliance that uses between 15A and 20A uses a different plug -- a 6-20P instead of a 6-15P. The neutral prong is rotated 90 degrees from what you're used to. It will only connect to a 20A outlet (a 6-20R).

Your vacuum, as another poster pointed out, does not draw between 15A and 20A. If it did, it would have a different plug than it does have.

Re: Quality?

[Sabriel]

Which is why I like New Zealand's approach (presuming it hasn't changed in the years since I read about it): You can wire your own home so long as you get it inspected, AND the government provides the information you need to know to do it right. Only if you want to do it for a profit (e.g. by wiring other people's homes) do you have to be a licensed electrician.

This is different to the Australian model, which is literally "if you want to replace even a broken light socket, even in your own home, you need to do an electrical apprenticeship with a registered authority, take a three year electrical course, obtain your electrician's license, and THEN you can replace the broken light socket in your own home as well as wiring homes and businesses for profit."

Guess which country had the higher electrical accident casualty rates? Hint: it wasn't the country they filmed Lord of the Rings in.

Nanny states have child citizens.

Re:Quality?

[Anonymous Coward]

... and this is why 230V is better ;)

Meanwhile, Physics is sitting around saying: "I don't care if you place your trust in the overrating of the conductor* or insulator**. (Not because I'm a sociopath. I'm just a force of nature.)

*Because you're pulling more current than you should.

**Because you're exceeding the voltage rating***.

***How did that happen, I modeled that as a voltage source?

Re: Quality?

[Anonymous Coward]

Nanny states have child citizens.

I'm going to be borrowing this from now on.

Re: Quality?

[trout007]

My problem is I've had more bad experiences with contractors than good. My first house (brand new) with a circuit in the kitchen where the GFI would constantly trip. I opened all of the outlets and switches to check the wires and everything was fine. I finally had enough and pulled off the fuse panel cover. Glad I did. The hot wire was just leaning against contacts. The set screw wasn't even close to being tight. Not only was this a professional but it also passed inspection. The wire had lots of arcing damage and needed to be replaced.

Re: Quality?

[LamboAlpha]

In the USA, NFPA 70 code (NFPA 70 NEC 2014 Table 210.21(B)(3)) allows for a 15A outlets on a 20A breaker. The parallel prong outlets are rated at 15A (e.g. NEMA 5-15R), but there are 20A outlets, which have both regular (straight) prong and a T or perpendicular pong, which is rated at 20A (NEMA 5-20R).

Re:Quality?

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, Aluminum wiring really sucks, which is why all of the high voltage transmission lines in the US are made of it.

Re: Quality?

[thegarbz]

I fully agree. It's one thing to wire a house and yet quite another to replace like for like something that is broken. It's not like it's complicated. Red wire goes to Red connector, Black goes to black, Green goes to green. Oh and god forbid you do that and then don't plug in a polarity checker to make sure you got it round correctly. But the laws in Australia go further. See it's not just a case of wiring a house. No, any LV work is effectively illegal. Build your own amplifier? Nope. Open a computer powersupply? Nope. Repair a power cable that is damaged? Nuh ah (though they still sell the plugs at Bunnings).

I do wish the AU laws were more like NZ's. However I don't wish they were any more lax than that. The DIY crowd can do some absolutely colossally stupid stuff in the name of ignorance or laziness, and electrical work is a fantastic way to burn down your house.

Re:Quality?

[sandytaru]

I'm guessing those lines are bigger than 2mm thick.

Re:Quality?

[petermgreen]

You see, the problem with putting a 15A outlet on a 20A circuit is that it violates the cardinal rule in electrical wiring: You put a fuse wherever you go from thicker wire to thinner wire.

In both europe and america portable appliances frequently have cords that are too thin to carry the full rated current of the plug that is attatched to them and yet very few countries used fused plugs.

Re:Quality?

[petermgreen]

Yeah, Aluminum wiring really sucks, which is why all of the high voltage transmission lines in the US are made of it.

Like with anything "best" depends on what your criteria are.

For a given resistance an aluminium cable will be lighter and cheaper than a copper cable. IIRC witht he right alloys it also self-supports for longer distances. On the other hand aluminium (especially older alloys*) needs careful termination practices to avoid joints that fail over time.

For long overhead and underground cables which are maintained and altered by well trained jointers the advantages of aluminium outweigh the disadvantages. For house wiring which is often maintained and altered by householders or cowboy tradesmen and where joints are much more frequent things are the other way round.

* Pure aluminium is almost never used for anything because it's too soft, practical aluminum is nearly always alloyed and the details of the alloy can significantly affect eht properies of the material. This creates the further complication that different aluminium alloys have different termination requirements.

Re:Quality?

[Firethorn]

Jemmy: A short steel crowbar

Steel will conduct electricity fine; that's how your voltage returns in most cars - they use the frame.

Re:Quality?

[Lehk228]

my friend bought a home and we found knob and tube wiring in the basement, the inspector told him it was not live, my induction ammeter determined that was a lie

Re:Quality?

[rmdingler]

Steel will conduct electricity fine; that's how your voltage returns in most cars - they use the frame.

Steel is occasionally used in wire for electrical transmission instead of copper (despite it's inferior conductivity) because it is less expensive and available in higher tensile strength(s).

Plus folks don't steal it near as often.

Re:Quality?

[Anonymous Coward]

Older houses from the mid 20th century may have aluminum wiring, which turned out to be a really bad idea. They tried it because the cost of copper was going up and the cost of aluminum was going down, but it turns out that the properties of the two metals are different and the aluminum wires performed really poorly over time.

Actually, most modern houses have aluminum wiring too, typically to drive the hot water heater or other high amperage items.

The really bad idea with the aluminum wiring was that they ran it with the copper equivalent gauge. If they ran wiring with a slightly larger gauge, odds are we wouldn't fear aluminum wiring in the home.

Re: Quality?

[Anonymous Coward]

His friend Bob thinks IBEW electricians cost too much and hires a non-union electrician. Because the only way a non-union electrician can make good money is to skimp on materials, Bob gets what he pays for, and it works...for now.

Electric Cars

[s122604]

Electric Cars, LOL

They'll never work

WTF

[csumpi]

Two weeks ago he said that the fire was not a fault of the charger. So why would he be sending new ones out then?

Re:WTF

[Gryle]

Because he wants to put his customers' minds at ease? It's a smart move on the part of the company.

Re:WTF

[cskrat]

While I assert that the GMO wheat in my company's bread did not cause your child to born with 12 toes. It is worth $200,000 to us to not find out if a jury will be composed of my peers or yours.

Because all aspects of this settlement may also be found "interesting" by local and national news organizations, we will also make a lot of noise about researching the health risks of all ingredients that will result in 2 point font warnings on our product labels.

Re:WTF

[beelsebob]

Because the new ones protect against faults in house wiring, as well as working correctly like the old ones did, and because that gives him great publicity, and return customers?

Re:WTF

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, it's a smart move. However it should have been done INSTEAD OF elon shooting his mouth off on the original news story.

Not along with.

Re:WTF

[Jakeula]

Its a crazy concept of doing right by your customers. I know this is insane to even consider, but shockingly some companies do this. If you RTFA you would see that Musk talks about home wiring not always being done properly, so in order to avoid leaving that variable up to chance, Tesla has sent out chargers that shut themselves off at a certain temperature. Its almost like he cares if his customers are happy and hes willing to do what it takes to alleviate as many issues as possible while using his product, even when not caused by his own product.

Re:WTF

[Anonymous Coward]

A charger built by my company overheats and catches fire. The house burns down with everyone trapped inside. Now, should we initiate a recall? Take the number of chargers in the field, A, multiply by the probable rate of failure, B, multiply by the average out-of-court settlement, C. A times B times C equals X. If X is less than the cost of a recall, we don't do one.

Re:WTF

[csumpi]

You obviosly didn't RTFA. And if you think the chargers are plugged into existing house wires, not a specially installed new circuit, now then you are just plain silly.

Re:WTF

[zero0ne]

Frankly, those chargers should have ALREADY had these changes on revision one...

Who designs a car charger that is using 230V at 30+Amps for hours on end and leaves out a temp sensor and a mechanical mechanism that would shut it off if it overheats?

The temp sensor for statistics and monitoring (since these are still early generation) and the mechanism for safety.

Re:WTF

[beelsebob]

No, I did RTFA, unlike you, who RTFS. The issue being pointed out here is with the house's wiring. The wiring that is custom installed for the car, but is not installed by Tesla. The charger is merely protecting against potential faults in that wiring.

Re:WTF

[jxander]

Simple : It's not the fault of the charger, but the new charger protects against deficiencies in other areas... like shoddy house wiring.

Re:WTF

[NormalVisual]

If you RTFA you would see that Musk talks about home wiring not always being done properly, so in order to avoid leaving that variable up to chance, Tesla has sent out chargers that shut themselves off at a certain temperature. Its almost like he cares if his customers are happy and hes willing to do what it takes to alleviate as many issues as possible while using his product, even when not caused by his own product.

As opposed to designing the charger to handle this not-particularly-outlandish possibility to begin with?

Re:WTF

[csumpi]

"The charger connectors, which tether Tesla-issued cables to wall outlets, will be mailed out in the next two weeks, Chief Executive Officer Elon Musk said in an interview today. The replacements will be treated as a recall, though owners won’t be required to travel to service centers."

So it's a recall on the charger connectors. Not on the in house wiring.

The house wiring was not smoking or catching fire, it was the connectors.

So it was obviously a fault of the household wiring. But can be fixed by replacing the connectors.

Really?

You know what taking care of the customers is? Being honest. Like we are looking into it. And we found a possible issue, so we are sending a new connector. Not blaming it on the ghost in somebody else's work.

If there was a problem with in-house wiring, they would and should be fixing the issue there.

.

Re:WTF

[csumpi]

Nah, I RTFA.

So please. Do tell. What in house wiring issue makes the connector, not the in-house wires, overheat?

Re:WTF

[csumpi]

"You have some shitty wiring in your walls. It can set stuff on fire! But don't worry about the shit wiring job. Here's a new flameproof connector."

Geez. Yeah. Now that should make the customer sleep easier. In his house with the shit wiring.

.

Re:WTF

[AaronW]

The thing is that though the charger may not have initiated the house fire there have been a number of documented cases where the connector to the adapter on the UMC cable has overheated and in some cases melted. I have had intermittent connection problems with the 30A adapter I was using. The connector is not that great at making a solid connection and the conductors seem rather small considering that they could be carrying upwards of 40A.

I look forward to getting a new UMC cable though I hope they also replace all of the additional adapters I own. The car normally comes with the NEMA 14-50 and standard 120V adapters. I have all of the other adapters they make.

Now there have also been a number of fires caused by faulty home wiring with other cars as well such as the Leaf and Volt which draw far less current than the Tesla is capable of.

As the owner of a Tesla I think this is the right thing to do. Tesla has generally been very proactive at dealing with issues before some government agency tells them to and without fighting it. They generally treat the owners well.

Re:WTF

[Anonymous Coward]

Or look it at from this perspective.

It's a cheap safety measure that will save the company from any bad press in case a customer does have shit wiring.

Look at the cost of the car, then look at the cost of the thermal sensor. It should have been there from the start.

Re:WTF

[beelsebob]

That would be, unusually high resistance in the socket that the connector plugged into. That is, exactly the fault that the fire service fingered in this case.

Re:WTF

[petermgreen]

Correct me if I'm wrong here but AIUI this is about the cable that tesla sells that has multiple adaptors so you can charge you car from your cooker circuit or your drier circuit or whatever. Not about the fixed chargers that are custom installed.

Re:WTF

[Firethorn]

I'd say that this is 20/20 hindsight in what's still a relatively new field. Do oven outlets normally have a temperature shutoff in them? It's the only other common household item that could be drawing over 30A on a routine basis that I can think of that actually has a plug, as opposed to being hardwired.

In-house testing problably got a most of the 1% stuff and almost all of the .1% problems., now they're working on the .01% problems with ~25k cars now in the field.

Re:WTF

[Anonymous Coward]

Because it's the fault of the houses wiring not the charger, but it's possible to build a charger with protection against that.

Re:WTF

[NormalVisual]

There are plenty of (much smaller) battery chargers and battery packs out there that incorporate thermal fuses, enough to where people complain about them blowing and accuse the manufacturers of planned obsolescence. Yes, most electric ovens are thermally fused, and pretty much every household dryer has one as well.

Re:WTF

[Gryle]

I'm not certain what you're getting at or if you're trolling. Is it now Tesla's responsibility to make sure that the wiring in the home of ever Tesla owner is up to code? Frankly if the wiring is kludged any high-drain device runs the risk of sparking up a fire from a refridgerator to a massive Christmas light display.

Re:WTF

[csumpi]

You are missing the point. When Elon said that the fault was in the house wiring, he was lying. Plain and simple. He should've just skipped the lie, said we found the issue, we are recalling the connectors (he actually _DID_ say that, google it), and sent out the replacement connectors (which he also did).

Re:WTF

[csumpi]

Resistance. In the socket. Which makes the connector overheat, start smoking and might set it on fire. Not the socket overheating. The connector. And the solution is to replace the connector, not the shitty socket that is mounted onto the wall. So you leave a crap socket in the house. That can set shit on fire. Wow dude.

Re:WTF

[Anonymous Coward]

Nonsense, show another high current appliance that has a dedicated temperature sensor and overtemp fuse *in the plug*.

Re:WTF

[beelsebob]

No, the socket overheated and smoked, and then set on fire, not the connector. The solution is to replace the wiring, and socket in the house. However, this solution can only be carried out if you actually know that it's faulty. Thus, by installing a heat sensor in the connector, detecting the fault, shutting down safely, and notifying the home owner, you improve the situation, even though the connector was not at any point at fault.

defective wiring is a very common cause of fire

[Anonymous Coward]

there was at one time a cafe here in Portland, that had lots of power sockets, with lots of people plugging their laptops in.

Most of their cover plates were missing.

Power sockets are contained in boxes that are fastened to wall studs. Most of the boxes their sockets were in had come loose, so they would pull out of the wall when one attempted to pull out one's plug.

they had a stage for live music. All the electronic instruments and loudspeakers were plugged into a single power strip that was connected via a long extension cord to the wall.

I repeatedly pointed out to the baristas that an electrical fire was bound to happen, and begged them to convince the cafe owner to have an electrician replace all the sockets, but no he never did.

I was quite shocked when they told me that the Portland fire inspector visited once a month, but only to ensure that they had adequate escape routes. The inspector never bothered with the sockets.

Re:defective wiring is a very common cause of fire

[Anonymous Coward]

I was quite shocked when they told me that the Portland fire inspector visited once a month, but only to ensure that they had adequate escape routes. The inspector never bothered with the sockets.

Possibly because it did not fall under his domain, but that of a building inspector?

PRAISES BE!

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh man, the beta site did not-auto load this time for me. Thank goodness! Just had to express my joy.

PTC Fuse

[Anonymous Coward]

They're less than a dollar in bulk. Every charger & power supply should have one.

sex With a Dick

[Anonymous Coward]

the 7ruitlees sling, return it to

this is why small airplanes suck

[Anonymous Coward]

Plane manufacturer makes a small change to improve the reliability or performance. Some one with a 30 year old plane crashes and dies, and because small plane owners as a general class have a significant percentage of high income individuals (doctors and lawyers, etc.) their heirs and assigns lawyer up and go after the mfr and say "you KNEW that it was defective or substandard because you changed it 24 years later".. "pay us the value of our beloved spouse/father/patriarchs future earnings".

Eventually, the plane manufacturers say "screw this, we're not going to make planes any more". Or if they do stay in business, they don't change anything. There's a reason Lycoming and Continental are still making the same overgrown VW engines for 70 years, and it's not because they need bolt pattern compatibility for replacements.

you need to read your code book

[Chirs]

1) 14ga wiring is allowed on 20A heating circuits. It's artificially derated for general purpose circuits for extra safety.
2) 20A circuits can have 15A receptacles as long as there is more than one receptacle (and a duplex outlet counts for this purpose).
3) Doesn't matter which way you wrap the wire around the screw, as long as it's tight. It shouldn't be loosening, period.
4) 1800W divided by 120V gives 15A, not "over 16A".

Re:you need to read your code book

[confused one]

14ga wiring is allowed on 20A heating circuits. It's artificially derated for general purpose circuits for extra safety.

Only because you're talking about a purely resistive load. "general purpose" spec allows for, among other things, inductive loads which can have startup and surge currents several times the nominal value. Some AC compressors draw 6x nominal at start. You shouldn't see much 14gauge, especially NM, in 20A residential circuits and you probably shouldn't be telling folks that it's OK.

Re:you need to read your code book

[bluefoxlucid]

My household current is 110V and the appliance claims to draw 1800W at 110V. If I give it 120V, it'll draw more than 1800W.

Tsk, tsk...

[ctrl-alt-canc]

the real Tesla would have charged cars from remote, without sending the customer a mains charger!

House Wiring.....Now we're reaching.

[Dbraw]

House wiring is probable given the case....however, unlikely. As stated above, no one that actually enjoys their Tesla uses the house wiring to night charge. Might as well connect it to a USB charger.

Connectors?

[PPH]

The charger itself resides in the car. The connector is simply a 240V, high current (30 Amp or more) special purpose plug.

Plugs overheat due to bad (high resistance) connections. And when they do so, they tend to draw less current, not more (like a short circuit would). A standard fuse is not what you want. A thermal sensor that would drop the charger load would seem to be more appropriate here. Possibly with arc fault sensing as well. If the fault was in the wall receptacle, it sounds like the electrician f*cked up installing it.

Re:Connectors?

[confused one]

the article specifically mentioned a thermal fuse. They trip on temperature, not current.

co#ck

[Anonymous Coward]

DO, OR INDEuED WHAT megs of ram runs Survival prospects = 36440 FreeBSD

I'm not surprised they're replacing the UMC

[AaronW]

I own a Tesla model S and was never very fond of how the adapters connect to the UMC cable. The UMC cable has a 5-pin connector on the end that plugs into the wall where it plugs into one of numerous adapters. The adapters contain pins for ground and the two 240V legs (not neutral) or the hot, neutral and ground for the 115V adapters. There's also a resistor in it that signals the amount of current that can be drawn between one of the pins and ground. I don't recall what the last pin is for.

The connector between the adapter and the cable is a weak link. I myself have had intermittent issues with my NEMA 14-30 adapter and the cable where just wiggling it causes a fault to show up. The adapter connector is not all that tight nor is it particularly secure. The pins are also rather small considering how much current they can be carrying (up to 40A).

A number of owners have reported that this connection between the UMC cable and the plug adapter has overheated or melted. While it sounds like in the case of the garage fire it was likely the fault of substandard wiring of the NEMA 14-50 outlet the UMC cables have been a known problem.

About a foot from this adapter cable is a small box that has a relay, GFI and some signalling circuitry to interface with the Model S.

I've only used the NEMA 14-50 adapter a couple of times since I have a separate high power wall connector that's hard-wired into my home (100A feed). I'm a lot more comfortable using that over the UMC cable but Tesla has to fix the early HPWCs as well. The resettable fuses are too sensitive so they recommend not charging at the full 80A. I myself have not had any problems at 80A but normally they reduce it to 60 until they send someone out to replace the fuses.

I don't think this will be a major setback for Tesla. The retail price of the UMC is $600 which means it probably costs a lot less to manufacture. I just hope that if they change that connector that they replace all of my adapters since I bought a number of additional ones (at $45 each) to handle NEMA 14-30, 10-30, 6-50 and 120v/20A.

The UMC is basically the equivalent of a normal J1772 EV charger but with a switchable plug and in a much smaller form factor. Hell, my HPWC charger is a fraction the size of most J1772 EV chargers yet it handles a lot more power than most J1772 adapters (and it doesn't even get warm when pumping 80A through it).

The UMC is nice since it means I can charge my car at any RV park that has a 240V hookup or that an owner just needs to install a NEMA 14-50 outlet which is a lot less expensive than either a high-power wall connector ($1200) or a standard EV charger.

Indentity psychology

[bussdriver]

Tribalism applied; it's actually basic Freud the same kind of stuff that gave birth to modern propaganda.

The tribal appeals work extremely well on primitive tribal minded people and is still somewhat effective on normal people. I would think the more extreme ones are the haters in these edge cases. It is not all that well hidden that there was an intentional strategy to attach traits to the tribal identity; denying global warming for example was actually planned. It is quite a brilliant way to control people; just as people wear, chant, and behave certain ways to be part of their "team" without much thought other than (I want to be in this group) people will tend to adopt positions of the group as well; the members indoctrinate each other but there is a strong pressure from the group identity underlying it all. You see it clearly in war propaganda, where the other tribe are baby eating inhuman monsters and merely doing something like them becomes unacceptable behavior. A recent example of how ridiculous (but effective) it can get is the "Freedom Fries" hate against our French ALLIES when the war propaganda machine turned against them.

Being a successful maverick/individualist businessman going against all odds etc, fits in well with the identity (as well as the tribal identity;) however, that doesn't have the level of propaganda behind it as these artificially appended traits which are also elevated to the level of it being taboo within the tribe. One can be in the tribe and be neutral on businessmen but if you are "green" that is a really huge taboo! It's as bad as taking a wife from an enemy tribe.

One could theorize... that these extra gullible tribal people are so easily gathered and controlled that all strongly cohesive groups form and thrive on this basis; therefore, such groups are tribal because non tribal groupings can't form that level of a monoculture (for lack of a better term.)

Re: Indentity psychology

[Anonymous Coward]

Whoah. Don't go all amateur anthropologist on us.

Re: Indentity psychology

[bussdriver]

Actually, it's psychology - the old base emotion stuff but I'm taking newer stuff I've read and claiming tribalism is an evolved base emotion and applying basic propaganda to it as they did with the other base emotions. We know humans evolved in tribes and I'm with the theory our brain power came from competition at the top of the food chain (it's rather obvious if you think about it.) In many ways propaganda is ahead of psychology because they do what works and proof or deeper understanding is not necessary. The fact they use it and it works is enough for me.

I only took one entry level anthropology course and it had little to do with tribes or so called "primitive" societies after the first few weeks.

Re:Indentity psychology

[Anonymous Coward]

Freud was full of shit.

STILL not NEC or NFPA compliant

[Anonymous Coward]

According to NEC, a standard 15 amp residential wall socket must be derated to 12 amps for any continuous load that lasts longer than 4 hours.

It is ILLEGAL for Teslas to be plugged into a standard 15 amp wall socket, and it is ILLEGAL for Teslas to be equipped with a NEMA-15 plug.

Re:STILL not NEC or NFPA compliant

[Firethorn]

According to NEC, a standard 15 amp residential wall socket must be derated to 12 amps for any continuous load that lasts longer than 4 hours.

Incorrect in almost every way.
1. NEC doesn't 'derate' anything.
2. an up to code 15A wall socket is good for 15A, period. Probably 20A(they're rated for 20A passthrough; it's fairly common to run a 20A circuit with more 15A sockets). It's the wiring behind the socket that's the real concern...
3. The 12A is for 'dedicated load' use when designing a dedicated circuit(or deciding whether you need one). IE if you KNOW what an outlet is going to be used for before you install it. Maximum design load on a circuit is 80% of the Max. Because 15-20A circuits normally power multiple devices, there are more rules there, like how many outlets are allowed on a circuit. Due to the tendency to use heating appliances in kitchens(toasters, microwaves, etc..), there's fewer outlets allowed per circuit, and 20A is much more likely to be required. So if you're looking at a 14A device, you're required to install a 20A circuit, not a 15. This is partially to avoid having to redo work when the customer replaces said item with a 'heavy duty' one that draws just a touch more...
4. If you're putting an outlet on the circuit, the circuit must be rated for what can plug into said outlet.
5. Besides, Tesla Model S only draws 1.4kw when pluged into a NEMA5-15, 100 watts LESS than a common (US) space heater on 'high'.

Re:STILL not NEC or NFPA compliant

[EmagGeek]

First, the OP's rant aside, NEC does define a "continuous load" as any load that is connected to a plug-and-socket connection for a period exceeding 3 hours. (article 100 definitions)

Second, the NEC requires that a circuit breaker be rated at 125% of any continuous load that may be connected to it (210.20A), which means that a branch circuit with a 15A breaker may only support a continuous load not exceeding 12A.

If a Tesla is plugged into a socket for more than three hours, then it may not draw more than 12A continuously, regardless of voltage or power factor. So, this calculation must be done at minimum grid voltage and actual power factor.

The US national power grid service specification is 120V +/- 5%. At the minimum voltage of 114V, and assuming perfect power factor, a 1.4kW load draws 12.28 amps, which exceeds the continuous load limit for a 15A branch circuit.

It is therefore a violation of the NEC to leave a Tesla plugged into a wall socket (dedicated or not) for longer than 3 hours if it is drawing 1.4kW that whole time. (It is also a violation to leave a space heater on 'high' for longer than three hours if it is drawing more than 12A).

Also keep in mind that the limit is 12A, regardless of power factor, so really if the Tesla is drawing 1.4kW and the power factor is not corrected, its current consumption may be considerably higher.

Re:STILL not NEC or NFPA compliant

[Firethorn]

1. NEC doesn't concern itself with users. It concerns itself with installers, inspectors, and professionals. The code is designed such that even if the user is clueless the worst that is supposed to happen is that the breaker trips.
2. Again, this is when the anticipated load is known during construction. NEC assumes users are idiots who can and will hook more things up in the future, thus the requirement for overhead. A 15A circuit with a 15A breaker is supposed to be safe even if you draw only 1 watt under the level at which the breaker would trip, with a 'worst case' situation being that the breaker fails open early.
3. UL Listed 1500 watt heaters are sold all the time, and they don't have timers. There's also no warnings about 'no more than 3 hours at a time'. If I was at home I'd grab my copy of the code book, but it's all about expected use when wiring, not use once the wires are in place. Breakers are always supposed to trip before damage in case of too much current draw. It's only when wiring isn't up to code - installed wrong or damaged that it's an issue.
4. You're assuming that the Model S, where the charging off a 5-15 port is listed at '110V, 12A, 1400W' is going to continue to draw 1.4kw, as opposed to using all it's fancy current limiting circuitry to limit it to 12A as opposed to 1.4kw.
5. Again, the NEC doesn't do JACK about consumers. Consumers aren't expected to know the NEC, about any 3 hour rule, etc... Now, if an electrician doing the wiring for a house is told that 'We expect to use outlet X for a space heater all night long' if he's doing it to code he'd have to run 12 gauge for a 20A breaker for that circuit, as opposed to 14 gauge/15A. For that matter, if they try it with a 'standard' 15A breaker as opposed to a 'full load' one, they'll probably get nuisance trips after a short period of time. A standard 15A breaker will start tripping if you draw more than 12A for over 3 hours. When it'll trip after that depends on the manufacturer, product line, and individual breaker.
6. Can't say about it's power factor level, other than given it's flexibility I think that it'd use a 'huge' switchmode power supply, and if's a power factor correcting one it should be quite good.

Re:STILL not NEC or NFPA compliant

[Firethorn]

210.20A says that, but you also have:
210.3 Rating. Branch circuits recognized by this article shall be rated in accordance with the maximum permitted ampere rating or setting of the overcurrent device. The rating for other than individual branch circuits shall be 15, 20, 30, 40, and 50 amperes. Where conductors of higher ampacity are used for any reason, the ampere rating or setting of the specified overcurrent device shall determine the circuit rating.

Not to mention the exception in 210.20A:
Exception: Where the assembly, including the overcurrent devices protecting the branch circuit(s), is listed for operation at 100 percent of its rating, the ampere rating of the overcurrent device shall be permitted to be not less than the sum of the continuous load plus the noncontinuous load.

From reviewing the code book, the concern isn't safety, it's that many circuit breakers will start popping below their rated capacity if pressed to over 80% for long periods of time(3+ hours). Oddly enough, the CH series breakers in my house are 100% rated, so I could safely pull 15A off a 15A breaker all day long. Good thing my wiring is up to code.

How Special

[Anonymous Coward]

With the house or apartment complex burned down there is no wall outlet to plug the charger into!

Dear me.

What is so wrong with public transportation.

Ah. Well there are the drunks who vomit on you without a notice of intent to vomit.

Let Gov Jerry Moonbeam Brown stick that up his gay Buttocks with lusty joy.

Ha ha

}:-D

They need to make a USB version

[Anonymous Coward]

There's no outlet at work, so I'd like to charge up my Tesla with my laptop.

when it comes with a wall wart

[rewindustry]

(or without batteries) the thing is a toy.

this is a simple fact of life.

question for linus - who is git, and what is he objecting to?

Thermal protection

[Firethorn]

I think the thing to consider here is that there's probably a bevy of thermal sensors, fuses, and cutoffs in Tesla's cars. Same deal with the ovens and dryers - the sensors are within the appliance itself, not the outlet as I specified.

Basically, putting thermal sensors in a dryer near the heating elements/air stream to prevent damage there makes sense. Having one in the oven to shut it down before it reaches combustion temperatures also makes senses. Putting one in the plug to try to detect that the outlet is overheating is non-standard.

Re:Thermal protection

[NormalVisual]

Putting one in the plug to try to detect that the outlet is overheating is non-standard.

You don't really fuse the charger to detect wiring faults in the outlet (although it's helpful in case you have something like 230V on a 115V outlet), you do it for the more common case where the transformer, regulators, or something else fails and start getting hot, and it's quite common that chargers are fused as I mentioned before.

Re:Thermal protection

[Firethorn]

I think you're missing a bit about the Tesla Model S - the charger(s) are located IN the vehicle. The most recent fire involving a Tesla was traced to most likely have started in the outlet that the car was charging from - the car itself was only minorly damaged, the chargers not at all.

The 'Wall charger adapter' that is being replaced in the article amounts to a fancy power cord - allowing you to plug different adapters onto the end to plug it into everything from a 15A@120V circuit all the way up to a 50A@240V one. It has some circuitry to tell the car what plug you stuck on the end so it 'knows' how much to draw 12A-40A.

Part of the concern for replacing the power cord is in case the user plugs it into an outlet that doesn't meet code(perhaps anymore). Heck, I'm currently in a 240V area and I've seen multiple outlets go bad - not the plugs, the outlets themselves. So it's a real concern. There have been some reported instances where either the outlet or the plug adapter malfunctioned. It can be hard to tell the difference sometimes, as the heat damages both.

Re:Thermal protection

[NormalVisual]

I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree here. I do see where you're coming from, but IMO any device that's handling that kind of current and directs any of it to power onboard low-voltage DC circuitry needs to be thermally fused as well as breakered.

Re:Thermal protection

[Firethorn]

I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree here. I do see where you're coming from, but IMO any device that's handling that kind of current and directs any of it to power onboard low-voltage DC circuitry needs to be thermally fused as well as breakered.

I think you've missed my argument: I'm not saying that they shouldn't provide thermal protection. They should. What I'm arguing is that the need to do so at the outlet was non-obvious. If you assume that everything is up to code, you don't need to worry about the outlet, as there's protection upstream to cut it off if necessary.

I don't actually know if the cord HAS any 'low-voltage DC Circuitry'. From what I've read it contains a GFCI breaker and uses some sort of resistor setup to determine what's plugged in. Could be something like 1 Ohm = 120@12A, 10=120@16A, 100 = 240V@24A, 500 = 240@40A, etc....

What it sounds like is that they're adding thermal protection forward, more towards the outlet. Plus adding some code for the chargers that attempts to detect a circuit that's not up to code.

Re:Thermal protection

[NormalVisual]

Actually I think you're right. I looked a little more closely at the charging options, and I was assuming (always a recipe for failure) what was involved was one of the high-power charging adapters with the LEDs (which is where you'd have to have the DC circuitry), but I see now that it wasn't one of those involved, and that they have to be wired directly to the panel and not through a plug on the back, which totally deflates my argument. The standard cable that comes with the car is much smaller, with a regular cable and connector for the 240 volt socket, and you're probably right that the wart has just the GFCI and rudimentary sensing circuitry that is likely directly on the power line.

Sorry for wasting your time on this. :-) You're absolutely right that it's unusual to fuse the power plug itself.

Look at the facts.

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes. If the fire was in the socket, it's probably a wiring issue. Where 10 guage wire and a 20 or 30 amp commercial outlet should have been used, there was something stupid like 14 guage and a 15 amp outlet.

Now, if the outlet was supplied by Tesla and didn't specify what guage wire to use, that's a different story.

Good for Tesla...

[tmach]

It's good to get on top of these things.
Although, I do wonder what changed their mind, since less than a month ago there was no way, nope, not a chance that the Tesla charger had anything whatsoever to do with that garage fire. Nope, not a chance in heck.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/12/18/us-autos-tesla-fire-idUSBRE9BH1J020131218