Orbital Becomes Second Private Firm To Send Cargo Craft To ISS

An anonymous reader writes "Orbital Sciences Corp.'s unmanned Cygnus spacecraft delivered 3,000 pounds of equipment, fresh fruit, and Christmas presents from the families of all six ISS spacemen today. 'From the men and women involved in the design, integration and test, to those who launched the Antares (rocket) and operated the Cygnus, our whole team has performed at a very high level for our NASA customer, and I am very proud of their extraordinary efforts,' said David W. Thompson, president and chief executive officer of Orbital, in a written statement from the company."

Comments

A field of Two

[Frosty Piss]

I think Orbital Sciences and SpaceX are at present the only real contenders for private commercial launch. Jeff Bezos' Blue Cactus or whatever is really just a "vanity project" for the bizillionaire.

Re:A field of Two

[Teancum]

EADS-Astrium/AirBus (they are going through a reorganization at the moment) is arguably a major contender for private commercial spaceflight launch as well. RKK Energia (the company who makes the Soyuz rockets) is also a private company who is competitive with the launch costs of both SpaceX and Orbital. You can debate if they really are a private companies or not (they do have shareholders and private investors... but also governments as investors as well).

Richard Branson has said he has his sights upon orbital spaceflight with Virgin Galactic, and there is also Stratolaunch, but those are the only other companies I can see being real competition. I had high hopes for ARCA, the Romanian space group that is doing some interesting things, but their projects seem to take even longer to happen than I thought. I'm sort of pleasantly surprised they are still doing stuff. Another group to watch is Copenhagen Suborbitals, who is building flying hardware (they have sent aloft more than a couple missions) and have technology that could at least theoretically make the trip into orbit over time.

Re:A field of Two

[rmdingler]

Other space entrepreneurs are coming out of the woodwork here

Re:A field of Two

[0123456]

This whole "look how gr8 commercial spaceflight can do so much better than government!" stuff is nonsense propaganda.

Again, SpaceX built a new rocket engine and two new rockets and launched them into space for less than NASA spent to put a dummy upper stage on top of a shuttle SRB and launch it into the Atlantic Ocean.

Aerospace, except in perhaps the first 5 years of flight, has always been about the government making the long-term investments and R&D, and private companies delivering final products.

So, you're claiming that government developed and funded the 747 and 787?

Re:A field of Two

[sumdumass]

I don't think you understand the significance of private commercial space launches.

It has little to do with an invisible hand and more to do with less restrictions on who can get what up there. Right now, it is all corporatist communistic capitalistic space anyways. Yes, all three at once because those who actually make it into space are either government or doing so at the behest of the government using technology developed by the government but refined for their particular usages, with the intent of eventually being available to anyone who isn't a government also. The end result is that you don't have to compete with some senators pork project to get something into space. You don't have to comply with only what the government wants in order to get something into space. And if all works out well, you will be able to visit space as a tourist if not just briefly.

You really do not want the government being the only entity controlling this. Right now, we already have commercial launches using government rockets but what if you wanted to put your own Hubble telescope into space or service a satellite you purchased or do anything the government entity isn't wanting to do. Such missions would be at the mercy of the government until private missions can be funded and committed solely at the will of private parties. Such future is possible with private launches.

Re:A field of Two

[surfdaddy]

Most people don't realize that getting to orbit takes almost an ORDER OF MAGNITUDE more energy than getting to space (suborbitally). Given that Branson has taken 10 years to get (almost) to commercial suborbital flight, I wouldn't hold my breath for Virgin Galactic anytime soon. I suspect that running commercial suborbital operations will be more complex and difficult than he suspects, but I'm still glad he's doing it.

Re:A field of Two

[Teancum]

Mars-One does not and never will build a launch vehicle capable of going into orbit. They may be entrepreneurs in space, but that is not what the GP was talking about. If you were suggesting Boeing or Lockheed-Martin was capable of competing.... that at least would be talking about companies who build rockets.

Re:A field of Two

[lgw]

Branson is more focused on creating a new space-related business than on creative new engineering to service existing business. I'm not sure whether such a market exists in the first place, but he's more about exploring new markets than new planets. Nothing wrong with that, but I don't think VGal will ever be about putting payloads in orbit.

Re:A field of Two

[Teancum]

Except for the fact that Lockheed and Boeing have been NASA's contractors for decades.

The difference is how these contracts are funded. The COTS contracts for SpaceX and Orbital have two huge things going for them:

1) These are not "cost-plus" contracts, but rather fixed price contracts where any cost savings during operations is kept entirely by the launch provider. If either company can save even a few hundred dollars by doing something cheaper or avoiding a purchase of the proverbial $10k wrench & hammer, those companies see that savings directly. Neither Lockheed-Martin nor Boeing care about stuff like that as they simply pass those "costs" in the "cost-plus" contract on to taxpayers. There are no cost overruns in a fixed price contract too, so if either Orbital or SpaceX have some unexpected costs showing up.... they need to eat those costs.

2) Both SpaceX and Orbital are free to use these launch vehicles for any other purpose as everything they've made belongs to them and not NASA or the federal government.

I do think there is a time and place for cost-plus contracts where there is a genuine national priority that something absolutely must be made. None the less, this really is a different thing and in a great many ways these other companies have been extensions of the government in how they made their vehicles.

Re:A field of Two

[rmdingler]

If you were suggesting Boeing or Lockheed-Martin was capable of competing.... that at least would be talking about companies who build rockets.

I don't know how you people are so accurately able to read the minds of people like me, but I wish you'd quit because now everyone already knows the punchline to my jokes.

Re:A field of Two

[beltsbear]

Once you get something to 60,000 ft you can design the nozzle to be 20% more efficient for that altitude and higher vs one that was efficient at lower altitudes. This gives you a pretty big advantage other then the height and that rocket can take you all the way to space. Now you are only throwing out one stage and have a rocket that can carry a higher mass vs it's size to orbit.

Re:A field of Two

[guanxi]

So, you're claiming that government developed and funded the 747 and 787?

The government invested and invests very heavily in the technology, including R&D, both through the military and NASA (and maybe via other agencies I'm not thinking of). For example, here is NASA's Aeronautics Research Mission Directorate.

Boeing is a leading beneficiary of these funds. Also, have Boeing and their competitors received tax breaks and other aid?

Re:A field of Two

[FatLittleMonkey]

The difference is that they wear the cost of fixing it. Possibly losing the contract entirely.

They don't get more money to fix it, and a continued guaranteed cost-plus supply contract for another 20-plus years.

Re:A field of Two

[Anonymous Coward]

Like maybe deciding to go with the cheaper o-rings with the narrower operating temperatures; just how cold could a Florida launch be anyway?

Like maybe, simply using RP1 engines for the first stage instead of insanely dangerous solid fuel boosters strapped to ridiculously overcomplicated and underpowered LH mains.

Re:A field of Two

[Teancum]

Like maybe deciding to go with the cheaper o-rings with the narrower operating temperatures; just how cold could a Florida launch be anyway?

Engineers from Thiokol wanted to use the more expensive o-rings in that case.... and NASA overruled demanding the cheaper ones. Furthermore, Thiokol also wanted to scrub the launch on the day that Challenger flew.... and NASA administrators thought it was politically a bad idea and flew anyway.

This whole line of thought is bullshit as it presumes that a commercial company would risk lives to save $10, as if they want to pay higher per launch premiums to their insurance providers not to mention want the blood of people on their hands. Look at the problems RKK Energia is facing right now with their vehicles because there have been failures last year and tell me launching companies don't worry about that stuff.

Re:A field of Two

[noh8rz10]

self-woosh. whaa???

Re:A field of Two

[noh8rz10]

perhaps he meant that much of today's aero technology and brainpower was developed through military and space programs. The 747 wasn't cut from whole cloth, rather the building block and people who designed it came from the military work. There's nothing wrong with this I think. It's also right to realize that a private company can design and build a new project like a rocket cheaper than a mil bureaucracy.

the best part about bureaucracy is if you drop that shit in WWF not only do you get mad points but uses a lot of excess values. inb4 7 letter limit - you'd have to play bureau first, then follow up with the -cracy add on later. it's like a hells yeah followed by a bitch please.

Re:A field of Two

[peppepz]

Again, SpaceX built a new rocket engine and two new rockets and launched them into space for less than NASA spent to put a dummy upper stage on top of a shuttle SRB and launch it into the Atlantic Ocean.

I think that it's not fair if you don't say that SpaceX did what they did by using NASA's research (which has huge costs that get written under NASA's budget but not SpaceX's) and with NASA's money (that is, it's the government and only the government that enabled them to reach their achievements).

Re:A field of Two

[Sockatume]

You're arguing that commercial spaceflight stands on the shoulders of necessarily-government-funded, unprofitable research; the parent post seems to be arguing that going forward, it is more efficient to let private enterprise do the work. You both seem to be correct from where I'm standing. If it's cheaper to let private businesses run the launches for publicly-funded space operations, then I'm all for it.

Re:A field of Two

[kyrsjo]

This.

Also, by launching from an arial platform, you won't have to boost so much "down" to fight gravity drag, but can bost more "sideways" which is more efficient. If you could boost only tangentially to the earth, you'll avoid having to carry fuel for 1g of acceleration upwards.

Also, the air resistance is probably a bit lower at altitude as well.

Re:A field of Two

[Richard_at_work]

Boeing directly receives as a benefactor a reduction in taxation by the state of Washington, and also the wings for its 787 are produced at well below cost due to funds its Japanese contractors received to design and build them.

Re:A field of Two

[hackertourist]

EADS/Arianespace is in a spot of trouble as their launch cost is much higher than that of SpaceX. The Ariane 6 is designed to close the gap a bit, but Arianespace has always struggled to be profitable even though they're bankrolled by ESA. Basically they're used to the old world where cost was no object and will have to adapt to the way SpaceX et al do things.

Re:A field of Two

[babydog]

Not really. Orbital is using old rocket motors from the Soviet moon rocket that was cancelled after Apollo 11. There is a limited supply of stockpiled and usable units. The last time it was in the news, Orbital still hadn't come up with a long-term source with which to meet the next NASA contract. SpaceX builds its own rocket engines. The Atlas V is the sole export customer for currently-produced Russian kerosene-fueled engines, and the Delta IV uses presumably expensive LH2 engines. This is all for the first stage.

Re:A field of Two

[bleckywelcky]

This whole "look how gr8 commercial spaceflight can do so much better than government!" stuff is nonsense propaganda.

Again, SpaceX built a new rocket engine and two new rockets and launched them into space for less than NASA spent to put a dummy upper stage on top of a shuttle SRB and launch it into the Atlantic Ocean.

Aerospace, except in perhaps the first 5 years of flight, has always been about the government making the long-term investments and R&D, and private companies delivering final products.

So, you're claiming that government developed and funded the 747 and 787?

To be fair, Ares I was intended to put 56,000 lb into LEO. While Falcon 9 only puts 23,000 to 29,000 lb into LEO. And Antares only puts 11,000 lb into LEO. And we all know that space does not scale linearly.

However, I applaud both their efforts. And I'm not sure you can ever consider government contracting in space as "private" in the sense that a private company might put out a RFP for silicon chip fab, and get back 10 aggressively competitive bids from other private companies. But, it's a step in the right direction. NASA can set quality and efficiency guidelines each year for ISS resupply. And then award the next year's (or batch's, etc) set of resupplies to whoever meets the guidelines best.

Re:A field of Two

[bleckywelcky]

Except for the fact that Lockheed and Boeing have been NASA's contractors for decades.

The difference is how these contracts are funded. The COTS contracts for SpaceX and Orbital have two huge things going for them:

1) These are not "cost-plus" contracts, but rather fixed price contracts where any cost savings during operations is kept entirely by the launch provider. If either company can save even a few hundred dollars by doing something cheaper or avoiding a purchase of the proverbial $10k wrench & hammer, those companies see that savings directly. Neither Lockheed-Martin nor Boeing care about stuff like that as they simply pass those "costs" in the "cost-plus" contract on to taxpayers. There are no cost overruns in a fixed price contract too, so if either Orbital or SpaceX have some unexpected costs showing up.... they need to eat those costs.

2) Both SpaceX and Orbital are free to use these launch vehicles for any other purpose as everything they've made belongs to them and not NASA or the federal government.

I do think there is a time and place for cost-plus contracts where there is a genuine national priority that something absolutely must be made. None the less, this really is a different thing and in a great many ways these other companies have been extensions of the government in how they made their vehicles.

Not cost plus only works if the task is well known and well defined. Because a task with an unknown or wandering scope (i.e. a science experiment) will eventually just stop once the money runs out, if it is not cost plus. Because individual companies are not bottom-less supplies of money either. So they'll mess up once, eat the cost. Mess up again, eat the cost. Repeat until the bank account says $0, and the rocket is half-complete. Then the company will simply go bankrupt. You can't go after a company with no money, there's nothing to go after. The government can take them to court and say "the contract says deliver a rocket, and you delivered 1/2 a rocket" all they want. But they won't get anything out of it ... because nothing exists anyways.

At this point, ISS resupply appears to be well known and well defined. However, if NASA, NFS, or the DOE said they wanted a new fusion power plant, and the RFP said fixed-fee (not cost plus), I doubt they would get any bidders. Or the bids would include absurdly high prices to allow for massive budget margins.

Re:A field of Two

[Teancum]

I agree with you on this sentiment. The Manhattan Project and arguably the Apollo missions were situations where the contractors involved simply didn't even know what was needed in order to get those respective projects completed. But let's be serious on this point: Do we really not understand the scope and task involved needed to get a spacecraft launched into orbit? Why is a cost-plus contract still being used in rocket development for orbital spacecraft like the SLS? Is the scope of knowledge needed to build telescopes really not well defined and understood for something like the James Webb Telescope?

As for your fusion plant example, I do know of some private companies who are doing fusion research on a for profit basis, but in those cases it is a speculative investment that people making such an investment know it very likely won't work out but are hoping it does. Bankruptcy is the way to clear out those approaches which fail to deliver and ensures that those bureaucracies disappear when that happens. There is no similar mechanism if a government bureaucracy fails as the solution is to simply pour more money into that organization hoping that in spite of repeatedly bad results something will change.

almost as good as UPS!

[Anonymous Coward]

Only a few days later than UPS for Xmas presents ;-)

Re:almost as good as UPS!

[pcwhalen]

That's cause they shopped online. They NEVER deliver by the Christmas deadline when you shop online.

Re:almost as good as UPS!

[kwrzesien]

That's cause they ASSUMED that Amazon Prime would get there as normal when any sane person would know better. If they really HAD to have it they could have upgraded to 1 Day Delivery and a warning should have been on the website after Friday. Blame this on Bezos and his website, not UPS.

Re:This is a good thing

[benjfowler]

Comsats to GEO is huge business. I'd have thought that most of the people building, operating and launching stuff into GEO are private. Just recently, SpaceX flawlessly sent two comsats into a geostationary transfer orbit (Orbcomm, Thaisat).

Incidentally, many of the vehicles doing comsat launches are very reliable and are doing double-duty as government launchers. It doesn't necessarily mean that foreign satellite operators are getting subsidised.

Becomes second private firm?

[Anonymous Coward]

This is the second time they've done it, so the they became the second private firm last year.

Re:Becomes second private firm?

[0123456]

This is the first operational cargo flight for them, isn't it?

Re:Becomes second private firm?

[Megane]

The other flight was officially a demo flight but brought up actual cargo, just as SpaceX's demo flight did. Needs more adjectives like "second private firm to send cargo to ISS under contract" or something like that. I still think their previous flight was more important.

Re:This is a good thing

[0123456]

How long and how much money did it take SpaceX? Oh, that's right, a long time and a lot of money...

Less money than NASA spent to put a fake upper stage on top of a shuttle SRB and fire it into the Atlantic Ocean.

Re:This is a good thing

[0123456]

In other words,

Thanks, Obama!

If we assume ISS shouldn't just be deorbited as a waste of money, space policy is one of the very few things Obama got right. Possibly because he doesn't really care about it.

Further Insight into the Cargo

[Skythe]

http://www.nasaspaceflight.com/2014/01/orbitals-antares-loft-cygnus-orb-1-mission/

not sure if privatization is a good thing.

[nimbius]

theres been a recent boom in privatized space launches and exploration, and while im sure its a good thing for the economy I have my reservations. the START database is an excellent example:
https://standards.nasa.gov/
nasa publishes interesting scientific standards publically which helps further the study of space travel. It also provides a source of independent verification for different components and systems. Privatized space exploration is routinely under intense pressure to redact or restrict access to this information as it is of a "trade secret" nature. Im willing to bet most of the standards data Orbital and SpaceX rely upon and likely refuse to disclose are in fact based upon the START repository.

privatizing space travel and exploration is also in the disinterest of society as historically its natural progression is to increase quarterly revenue in the standard definition of a corporation. issues like environmental impacts then fall to the wayside as 'externalities' and, at worst we turn from sagans starry eyed space voyage to a wal-mart in the stars.
im old, so maybe im overreacting...but I sincerely believe there needs to be some system of independent audit and evaluation in place so that the spirit of space travel doesnt end up a thing of the past.

Re:not sure if privatization is a good thing.

[FatLittleMonkey]

Im willing to bet most of the standards data Orbital and SpaceX rely upon and likely refuse to disclose are in fact based upon the START repository.

I don't know about Orbital, but SpaceX routinely credits NASA research for the core of its work. The first Merlin engines, the material for the heat-shield for Dragon. They hired a lot of NASA and Primary-contractor guys, so brought across a lot of ideas. And a lot of their cost-saving manufacturing techniques were originally developed by NASA or through their research contracts. I'm also willing to bet the "pusher" launch-abort system was developed by researchers at, say, JPL, because Boeing & Bigelow adopting the same idea for CST-100.

[The interesting thing is that so little of this work was ever taken up by NASA or the Primes. Orion, for example, doesn't use the newer PICA heatshield material invented by NASA. Instead it uses the older shuttle materials. Similarly it uses an Apollo-style escape-tower instead of a pusher engine. None of the SLS engines will be based on NASA's last 20 years of rocket engine research, but will be refurbished older engines. (Including nine used engines literally taken off the three retired shuttles.)]

Similarly, Bigelow's inflatables were NASA's Transhab research. Sierra Nevada's Dream Chaser is HL-20, with some X-38 thrown in.

Re:Price per pound - Fruit on sale

[iroll]

And replace them with what, MREs? Because...?

You do realize that they have to eat either way, right, and that the only difference here is that they will prioritize the fresh food for consumption first. Obviously they need preserved food but there's no reason for them to eat it exclusively, since its only advantage is that it lasts longer. This is what the world's navies have known for only about three thousand years...

Re:This is a good thing

[FatLittleMonkey]

Had the shuttle been capable of taking us to the Moon or to at least Lunar orbit

The problem with the shuttle wasn't that it didn't go beyond LEO. It was a space shuttle, that's what they're for, surface to orbit. For longer trips you take the main ship.

The problem was that is was intended to be a low-cost all-purpose reusable truck that would free up funding for other projects. (For example, that "main ship" I mentioned.) But in reality it became the entirety of HSF, consuming vast amounts of funding. Too much to allow its own replacement to be developed, too much to allow iterative development of Shuttle MkII MkIII MkIV... Too much to commercialise. Too much to allow HSF to advance.

By now pushing LEO-work into the commercial sphere, there's a chance to finally turn to other things... ...Except SLS has been carefully designed to make exactly the same mistakes as the shuttle. The shuttle, okay, they were trying something new, they didn't know better. This time it's wilful and vindictive.

Re:Price per pound - Fruit on sale

[FatLittleMonkey]

That's some pretty fucking expensive bananas.

I think they avoid bananas because the smell tends to go through the whole station for days, and some crew find it off-putting.

Re:Price per pound - Fruit on sale

[FatLittleMonkey]

Or set up a greenhouse and grow their own.

Simpsons did it. Simpsons did it.

[FatLittleMonkey]

Cargo also included an ant-farm.

[And "video tapes". Because... the '80s?]

I _sure_ hope there *WILL* be competition !

[Taco Cowboy]

It's not exactly a field where there is going to be a diversity of competition, not for the immediate future anyway

I sincerely hope that there will be * MORE * competitors.

Look at the cost ...

Orbital has a $1.9 billion contract with NASA to make eight flights to the space station under the space agency's commercial supply program

For each of the delivery NASA is shelling out more than $237.5 million.

Now, compare this with the cost for India to send a probe to Mars http://science.slashdot.org/story/13/12/01/040246/indian-mars-probe-successfully-enters-sun-centric-orbit

The Indian space project cost India a total of $81 million .

While there are some saying that the Indian space program to Mars only cost $74 million, even with the higher price tag of $81 million it is still ONE THIRD of the price of Nasa is paying Orbital !!

Re:I _sure_ hope there *WILL* be competition !

[aiadot]

Not disagreeing with your point about the need to reduce costs, but I'm not sure if India is a good reference in prices. What are they paying to their engineers and technicians? Is their hardware on par of American, Russian and European in terms of safety, reliability or capabilities? Is that number even correct and not made up? As a guy with no knowledge in the matter it's really hard to judge whether Obital/SpaceX costs are overpriced or not without knowing the reason those costs exist in first place and how India is doing their magic.

Re:I _sure_ hope there *WILL* be competition !

[Taco Cowboy]

I am not from India, so I have no way to know how much in term of safety the Indian space missions put in nor the accounting practice in India.

But I can tell you this ...

1. The group of Indian engineers and technicians must be WORLD CLASS to successfully send out a space probe on its way to Mars.

World class professionals don't come cheap, and world class professionals are not dumb either.

For sure, they must be paid handsomely even when they work INSIDE INDIA - You think they are that stupid that they are willing to be paid "peanuts" inside India while they can rake in much more moolah if they work in either USA or Europe ?

2. The space craft Orbitals sent up is a "transportation module" that carried some 3,000 pounds of stuffs. In other words, that space craft is a disposable cargo container that is NOT designed for human cargo, and the "safety issue" you mentioned won't be a priority either.

3, Accounting

I do not think the accounting practice in India is _that_ different from the accounting practice in other countries.

Or, to put it in another way --- Why should India lie about the cost for their space program ?

I may be wrong in this, but unless someone can provide me the benefit India may reap if it lies about the cost of their space program, I trust the figure as was reported.

Re:I _sure_ hope there *WILL* be competition !

[Dcnjoe60]

Sending a probe to Mars and sending 3,000 lbs to the ISS are two totally different things. First, if your programming is off just slightly, you miss Mars, or as we have seen previously, you crash into the planet and loose your probe. Hit the ISS with a capsule carrying that extra weight and you loose just more than the capsule.

But the real difference between the Orbital price and India is that India is reporting its actual cost. What Orbital charges NASA includes a hefty profit margin. The actual costs are significantly lower.

Re:I _sure_ hope there *WILL* be competition !

[nitehawk214]

Sending a probe to Mars and sending 3,000 lbs to the ISS are two totally different things. First, if your programming is off just slightly, you miss Mars, or as we have seen previously, you crash into the planet and loose your probe. Hit the ISS with a capsule carrying that extra weight and you loose just more than the capsule.

But the real difference between the Orbital price and India is that India is reporting its actual cost. What Orbital charges NASA includes a hefty profit margin. The actual costs are significantly lower.

loose your probe

I am pretty sure you can be arrested for that.

Re:I _sure_ hope there *WILL* be competition !

[Dcnjoe60]

:)

Re:I _sure_ hope there *WILL* be competition !

[AJH16]

Hmm, lets see, and what was the payload weight of the Mars mission? Oh wait, that would be 33 pounds, not 3000. The Cygnus launch could have carried the entire fueled rocket for the Indian mars mission in to orbit. Sure, it takes more energy to escape Earth's gravity entirely, but you are still comparing apples to oranges when you look at the fact that the entire weight, let alone the fuel needs of the Indian mission were lower than the payload weight of the Cygnus mission. Taken in perspective, Orbital did a MUCH more cost effective job than India.

Re:I _sure_ hope there *WILL* be competition !

[AJH16]

Err, strike that, I think I misread the stat sheet. Never mind.

Re:I _sure_ hope there *WILL* be competition !

[M1FCJ]

Not only that, SpaceX carries more while charging NASA for less, and Orbital still gets a contract. Why? Because they have always been a NASA contractor.

Pork barrels all the way down, all the way...