Apple Will Refund $32.5M To Settle In-App Purchase Complaints With FTC

coondoggie writes "Apple today agreed to refund at least $32.5 million to iTunes customers in order to settle FTC complaints about charges incurred by children in kids' mobile apps without their parents' consent. 'As alleged in the Commission's complaint, Apple violated this basic principle by failing to inform parents that, by entering a password, they were permitting a charge for virtual goods or currency to be used by their child in playing a children's app and at the same time triggering a 15-minute window during which their child could make unlimited additional purchases without further parental action."

Comments

They should require refund window

[Lumpy]

When I buy an app and discover it is a steaming turd, I should be able to click to remove it and get a refund within 15 minutes. That way the parent should see the charges and then reverse them easily. Granted if the parent is too stupid to check why they are getting 30 email alerts in a row after little johnny jumped on the ipad... That's their own fault.

Re:They should require refund window

[Altus]

Generally the receipts for these charges show up a day or 2 after the purchase. I assume apple is batching together the charges or something and processing them in bulk somehow. Or maybe it just takes 2 days for the email alert to go out? I don't know.

Re: They should require refund window

[zerotorr]

Because everyone is required to have a constant, always on internet connection tethered to them every moment of their lives?

Re:They should require refund window

[Anonymous Coward]

I remember back when the Android Market refund window was 24 hours, not fifteen minutes. Good times, good times.

Re:They should require refund window

[msauve]

...but that's the wrong "refund window." In order to get a refund from Apple, the parents should have a 15 minute window in which they have to claim it.

Really, specifically authorizing a purchase, and not monitoring what their kids are doing on an Internet connected device is just stupid. Stupidity should be painful.

Re:They should require refund window

[ackthpt]

Generally the receipts for these charges show up a day or 2 after the purchase. I assume apple is batching together the charges or something and processing them in bulk somehow. Or maybe it just takes 2 days for the email alert to go out? I don't know.

I know I can't figure out my AT&T bill, no matter how I try. I imagine Apple has imitated that art.

Re:They should require refund window

[UnknowingFool]

Apple batches the charges as it reduces processing fees for credit cards. If you buy 2 $0.99 apps, it costs them less to run it as one $1.98 charge with two items in the invoice than two separate charges.

Re:They should require refund window

[AmiMoJo]

Can you even refund in-app purchases? Say you pay to get the last item and finish the game, or get ahead of other players, or level up your character or whatever. Can that be reversed somehow?

Re: They should require refund window

[Anonymous Coward]

And companies should be allowed to take advantage of people, unless its you right?

Re:They should require refund window

[Penguinisto]

Well, there's also going into the App Store after your kid hands back the device and seeing if there are any new purchases - they show up pretty easily under "purchased". Not 100% certain about the in-app purchases, but since it does not require a credit card to get an AppStore account...

Meanwhile, if a parent is idiot enough to let their toddler play with a somewhat-fragile glass-faced $500+ electronic device? The parent(s) deserve the consequences, and should count themselves lucky that little Junior didn't slam it into the floor until the screen shattered.

Re: They should require refund window

[ackthpt]

Because everyone is required to have a constant, always on internet connection tethered to them every moment of their lives?

Haven't met anyone under the age of 30 lately, have you?

Like in particular kids. If they can't, like, stay connected then they would simply die, like!

I'm sitting at an intersection watching high school kids go by and at least 60% of the girls have a phone in their hand, which they are looking at.

There's a skyrocketing market for behavior modification counselling if ever there was one.

so, you think Justin's egg throwing was merited and you had to share that with all your friends ... let's work on why that is so important to you ...

Re:They should require refund window

[Swampash]

When I buy an app and discover it is a steaming turd, I should be able to click to remove it and get a refund within 15 minutes.

You can - I've done it more than once with apps that turned out to be, as you put it, steaming turds.

This case however is about IN-APP purchases. E.g. playing a shitty freemium game like Plants vs Zombies 2 and unlocking new plants by clicking the "buy this plant" button, which costs real-world money.

Re:They should require refund window

[david_thornley]

When doing something that I knew would bore my young son, I'd often give him something to do. If I'd had an iPhone back then, I would have sometimes found a game I thought he'd like and hand it over. I wouldn't monitor him closely in those situations; if I were going to pay that much attention to him, I wouldn't need something to distract him.

Now, suppose I downloaded and paid for a game. Game purchase authorized. What Apple didn't in general tell people is that that authorization would last past the initial purpose, unless the user dug deep in Settings to turn that feature off. What the game app probably didn't say was that it had in-app purchases that would be tempting to young children. It would be really, really easy for a parent to think he or she was handing something safe to the child without realizing it. Note that, given situations that involve young children, spending five minutes to research something that appears safe isn't always going to happen.

Young children don't understand money. Enough adults have problems thinking of credit purchases as actually spending money on something. I distinctly remember not understanding money as anything except bills and coins.

I have absolutely no sympathy with people who write apps like this, that are designed to siphon money from busy parents who don't fully understand technicalities.

Re: They should require refund window

[Anonymous Coward]

I fail to see how apple was taking advantage of people, please elaborate...

Re:They should require refund window

[tlhIngan]

When I buy an app and discover it is a steaming turd, I should be able to click to remove it and get a refund within 15 minutes. That way the parent should see the charges and then reverse them easily. Granted if the parent is too stupid to check why they are getting 30 email alerts in a row after little johnny jumped on the ipad... That's their own fault.

In general, you can. You have to contact Apple Support for it, though, but you can get refunded on app purchases.

Heck, in Taiwan, the law requires app stores have a 7 day return window. Apple obeys by it, Google does not. In fact, Google at one point removed the ability to buy apps if you're from Taiwan. Instead, they lobbied the government to give them an exception to the 7 day rule. (It was granted).

Re:They should require refund window

[Anonymous Coward]

E.g. playing a shitty freemium game like Plants vs Zombies 2 [...]

Wow. Sounds like SOMEONE'S still bitter.

Just point on the doll where you were hurt by the new business model that came about because we were gleefully mocking and abusing the outdated business model and telling companies to develop that new business model if they didn't like it.

Re:They should require refund window

[JabrTheHut]

Meanwhile, if a parent is idiot enough to let their toddler play with a somewhat-fragile glass-faced $500+ electronic device?

You mean like a TV? And - toddler? There's a stage or two between toddler and adult that you seem to be unaware of...

The parent(s) deserve the consequences, and should count themselves lucky that little Junior didn't slam it into the floor until the screen shattered.

She keeps slamming toys into the screen, but she's not strong enough to break it. Yet.

Re: They should require refund window

[Anonymous Coward]

Aww cmon,
Apple has to specifically approve every App. A few moments playing with those apps would reveal some of the most devious price gouging tactics used, eg; what was it $25 USD for happy berries for smurfs? A game targeted specifically at children.
Then there was copious amounts of news coverage of these types of Apps - highlighting the dubiously targeted child purchases.
Are you really thinking that Apple didn't know of these purchases? And that their accountants didn't notice the percentages of each purchase they were accumulating? And that they weren't aware of such unethical immoral behaviour by app developers?

Re:They should require refund window

[Penguinisto]

Meanwhile, if a parent is idiot enough to let their toddler play with a somewhat-fragile glass-faced $500+ electronic device?

You mean like a TV? And - toddler? There's a stage or two between toddler and adult that you seem to be unaware of...

A TV is substantially larger, heavier, and sturdier than an iPad, let alone an iPhone/iPod Touch. Curiously enough, if we were just talking iPads, the television is often cheaper to replace.

Curiously enough, the nanosecond a kid tries to pick up the television, most parents are smart enough to put a stop to it.

She keeps slamming toys into the screen, but she's not strong enough to break it. Yet.

Time to step up and do that parenting thing, no?

Re:They should require refund window

[Anonymous Coward]

"spending five minutes to research something that appears safe isn't always going to happen"
Unless you're a company distributing that App that has to specifically, individually approve each app for distribution.

Re:They should require refund window

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, you can get refunds on in-app purchases, the same way you get refunds on any other purchase. Five seconds of googling would have answered that for you.

Re:They should require refund window

[gerardrj]

The settlement is regarding in-app purchases, not App purchases.

Here's why there's not automatic 15 minute window to get refunds for those: Apple has not way of knowing if you USED the in-app purchase or not.

Why's it matter? You're playing a game and need Sword of Wonderment +5 to kill Malchan. You can in-app purchase it for $1.29 or go spend an hour earning it in a quest. You're lazy so you buy the Sword of Wonderment +5, kill Malchan and then claim a refund for the $1.29 you spent on the Sword of Wonderment +5.
Substitute bags of coins, bigger engine, red sneakers or any other item in any other game that does this sort of thing.

In that environment, what is the incentive for developers to continue to offer free or low-cost games?

Re:They should require refund window

[Anonymous Coward]

A TV is substantially larger, heavier, and sturdier than an iPad,

Larger and heavier, yes. Sturdier, not by a long shot. An iPad is infinitely more sturdy than any TV I've ever seen.

Re:They should require refund window

[viperidaenz]

You mean the email alerts they read on the their iPad that the child is currently playing the game on?

Re:They should require refund window

[Anonymous Coward]

I wonder if there is an app to organize your app bills.

Re:They should require refund window

[immaterial]

I know I can't figure out my AT&T bill, no matter how I try. I imagine Apple has imitated that art.

It is truly complicated.

Re:They should require refund window

[KingOfBLASH]

I bought an app the other day that didn't work. I went to my apple account, clicked the "Report a problem with this purchase button" under recent purchases, explained the problem, and was issued a refund the same day.

I don't know if they'd do the same thing if you just said "hey this game sucks can I return it" but then how many stores will let you return video games after they've been opened?

Re:They should require refund window

[viperidaenz]

You haven't seen the 80kg theft-deterant-device in my living room that doubles as a TV.

Got to love lead filled CRT's! Who's going to want to steal that?

Re:They should require refund window

[viperidaenz]

Does that count for in-app purchases too?

Re:They should require refund window

[msauve]

So, your reasoning is that since you're a poor parent and you don't take the time to understand the things you're giving to your kid to play with, Apple owes you money.

Re:They should require refund window

[Anonymous Coward]

It boggles my mind that people actually spend money on those things.

Re:They should require refund window

[farble1670]

Granted if the parent is too stupid to check why they are getting 30 email alerts in a row after little johnny jumped on the ipad... That's their own fault.

yeah, because we are all sitting around watching our inbox constantly.

Re:They should require refund window

[farble1670]

the parents should have a 15 minute window in which they have to claim it

that's almost pointless as it requires you to figure out what has happened within 15 minutes of the action.

Re:They should require refund window

[farble1670]

apple gives you a refund, but you keep the in app purchase.

Re:They should require refund window

[AK Marc]

Meanwhile, if a parent is idiot enough to let their toddler play with a somewhat-fragile glass-faced $500+ electronic device? The parent(s) deserve the consequences, and should count themselves lucky that little Junior didn't slam it into the floor until the screen shattered.

My toddler takes better care of the iPad than the teen. And yes, we have all purchases turned off, to the maximum extent possible without losing functionality.

Re:They should require refund window

[AK Marc]

Drop an iPad onto unpadded carpet from 1 meter high. Do the same with your TV. I've seen the first. No damage. I've seen the second. Some damage. The iPad is "sturdier" for most definitions of sturdy.

Re:They should require refund window

[AK Marc]

Giving the kid a ball and ignoring them is good parenting, but handing them an educational game on an iPad and ignoring them is horrible parenting? Apple owes you a clue.

Re:They should require refund window

[Anonymous Coward]

You haven't seen the 80kg theft-deterant-device in my living room that doubles as a TV.

1) I'd bet heavily that even that is made out of plastic, which even if it's reasonably tough plastic is likely to be less sturdy than the metal iPad
2) I'd bet heavily that the screen is both larger than an iPad's and made of less tough glass (i.e. just glass, not gorilla glass).
3) I'd bet heavily (actually, I know, thanks to physics) that your TV will undergo more force when it decelerates in the same amount of time hitting the floor.

I find it odd that people equate weight with sturdiness, they're not the same.

Re: They should require refund window

[rmdingler]

I'm sitting at an intersection watching high school kids go by and at least 60% of the girls have a phone in their hand, which they are looking at.

Just be careful where you gather data there brother.

Because everyone is required to have a constant, always on internet connection tethered to them every moment of their lives?

There is a sacrifice in personality development, but there is truth in what you say.

Re:They should require refund window

[squiggleslash]

Sorry, but you're missing the fact that if a heroic jerb creating (in China) corporation does anything that results in you losing money because of anything that involved any decision on your part, regardless of whether you did it knowing that you'd lose money, or whether the corporation even used trickery or in some other way took advantage of the fact no reasonable person would think they'd lose money, then ITS YOUR FAULT AND YOUR DUMM HUH HUH.

*sigh* I don't understand the mentality either. Who the hell wants to spend their entire lives having a lawyer and army of technical experts look over every decision they make, just in case there's some hidden feature in there that's likely to screw you over.

Re: They should require refund window

[DexterIsADog]

Haven't met anyone under the age of 30 lately, have you?

Hmm, just guessing from your grasp of standard English, correct spelling and grammar, and your low UID that you perhaps came of age in the 60's...? If so, you know, glass houses. :-)

But don't mind me, I came of age in the worthless 70's.

Re:They should require refund window

[msauve]

No. Playing ball with your kid is good parenting. Giving your kid a toy so they don't bother you isn't.

And, somehow, I don't think all this "in-game purchase" stuff is about educational applications, except as defined by rationalizing pseudo-parents.

Re:They should require refund window

[ruir]

There is an option to disable in-app purchases, and is disabled both in my ipad and my iphone as protection from my kid, from myself and from potentially malicious apps.

Re: They should require refund window

[dk20]

1) allow you to create an account with out FORCING you to enter a valid Credit card.
I just created an ApplieID to update my mac. Guess what, it absolutely refused to allow me to move forward without a credit card number. Why? So i could download the free updates using the "app store"?
2) As others have stated stop calling them "magic berries" or such, its really money. You dont think this was intentional?
3) again as others have pointed out. Apple reviews and approves every app. How do you approve an app for that age ranage and allow "in app purchases"?

Re:They should require refund window

[AK Marc]

You are obviously not a parent. There's never a situation where the "best" response is to passify your child so you can deal with something else? Never? It may not be "good parenting" in your book, but it's at least sometimes necessary.

And, somehow, I don't think all this "in-game purchase" stuff is about educational applications, except as defined by rationalizing pseudo-parents.

If your comments don't stand up to the best case and worst case scenarios, then your argument fails.

Re: They should require refund window

[flieghund]

Based on my own anecdotal evidence, I would guess UID 218170 probably wasn't even a twinkle in someone's eye in the 1960s. Speaking of ackthpt: Do I get bonus points for recognizing the Bloom County reference?

Re:They should require refund window

[dk20]

Spoken as a parent?

So your logic is apple has no fault here even though they approve every app, and these apps with in-app purchases are approved for kids?

I know, apple is settling because they are correct but feel like handing over some money to reduce their cash balances and its in their shareholders interest?
PS. There is a huge difference between "owes you money" and "a refund".

Re: They should require refund window

[R3d M3rcury]

If they can't, like, stay connected then they would literally die!

FTFY.

Re:They should require refund window

[Plumpaquatsch]

When I buy an app and discover it is a steaming turd, I should be able to click to remove it and get a refund within 15 minutes.

You mean like on Google Play? Oh, no, wait - There is no 15-minute refund period [for In-app purchases] - all refunds are at the discretion of the developer

Re:They should require refund window

[msauve]

If you think there's ever a situation where the best response is to "passify" your child, you suck as a parent.

Re:They should require refund window

[msauve]

Apple is only settling for the cheapest way out. I have no sympathy for some shit parent who can't responsibly supervise their kids, and expects a corporation to be a babysitter.

Re:They should require refund window

[viperidaenz]

Throw iPad at screen of oldschool flat CRT TV, see which one fares better.
Its hard to even lift the TV a metre in the air.

You could also try the following test:
Drop iPad on TV, drop TV on iPad.

Re: They should require refund window

[Anonymous Coward]

Who said anything about a babysitter?

Simple question, are those apps aimed at kids. Yes or no?

Re: They should require refund window

[Nf1nk]

There is a trick to creating a AppleID account with no credit card. It does, however cost $5. First buy an iTunes gift card for $5 at the local grocery store. Next use that when you set up the account. It works great and is safe.

Re: They should require refund window

[ackthpt]

Based on my own anecdotal evidence, I would guess UID 218170 probably wasn't even a twinkle in someone's eye in the 1960s. Speaking of ackthpt: Do I get bonus points for recognizing the Bloom County reference?

Well played! It was my license plate for many years, as well.

Re: They should require refund window

[ackthpt]

If they can't, like, stay connected then they would literally die!

FTFY.

Like, you're not from California, are you, like?

Re: They should require refund window

[Plumpaquatsch]

1) allow you to create an account with out FORCING you to enter a valid Credit card. I just created an ApplieID to update my mac. Guess what, it absolutely refused to allow me to move forward without a credit card number. Why? So i could download the free updates using the "app store"?

http://support.apple.com/kb/ht2534 - "Creating an iTunes Store, App Store, iBooks Store, and Mac App Store account without a credit card"

The first hit from Googleing "creating apple id without credit card" - which is the third suggestion after typing "creating ap". Jesus, that was hard.

But why didn't you have an AppleID from registering your Mac in the first place? Too paranoid?

Re:They should require refund window

[ernest.cunningham]

Mod this person up, they speak the truth!I have two boys under 3 and in no way is there a situation where I need to "pacify" either of them.

Secondly, I buy an iPhone, I look through the settings and get to understand the device with all its features and settings.

My phone has restricted in app purchases adding and deleting apps. Now to make an in app purchase requires a 4 digit pin AND for me to sign in with my Apple ID. All subsequent purchases require the same action.

Still, if my young boys things because I put in my password and pin it is APPLE'S fault /s

Re: They should require refund window

[Anonymous Coward]

That is not a trick. That is a feature....

Re:They should require refund window

[Plumpaquatsch]

Giving the kid a ball and ignoring them is good parenting, but handing them an educational game on an iPad and ignoring them is horrible parenting? Apple owes you a clue.

So now you want Apple to pay for the windows your kid broke with the ball?

Re: They should require refund window

[DexterIsADog]

It didn't even occur to me that anyone would miss the reference. I guess I'm old.

Re:They should require refund window

[david_thornley]

My policy was that there was no reason not to be nice to the kid. Kids need to learn how to deal with adversity, but the world in general usually supplies all needed adversity.

Therefore, if I was going to do something that didn't involve the kid, I wanted the kid to have something to play with. Being considerate to the kid was likely to result in the kid being considerate to others (well, as soon as the kid figures out what consideration is, anyway), and this seems to have succeeded very well. In return, the kid exercised patience when necessary, I think partly because he knew we wouldn't be leaving him bored for no reason.

I was rarely sure I was doing the best thing, and I don't know how our child-raising methods would have worked with anybody else, but I'm very happy with how they worked in my son's case.

That you can devote all your time to your kids is good. That you check out your gadgets thoroughly is good. Not everybody is going to be willing or able to do those. Sucking money out of a parent's account because he or she missed something is evil.

Re:They should require refund window

[AK Marc]

Your wife fell and is bleeding out, your child runs over and is trying to hug, momma, exacerbating her injuries as you are trying to stabilizer her. What should you do? Let your wife die from the unintentional damage the child is doing? Ignore your wife to deal with the child, also resulting in her death? Or pacify the child so that you can save your wife?

I'm sure that in that situation, you'd pacify the child, but for argument sake, you'll make up something else. Turning it into a teaching moment? Ideally yes, but in reality, the stress of the situation will likely eliminate that as an option. But feel free to tell me how I'm wrong. The fact that you can't conceive of any situation that it's acceptable is a problem with your imagination and reasoning skills

Re: They should require refund window

[Anonymous Coward]

Sit in public place in USA watching kids - is this at al least?

Re: They should require refund window

[Anonymous Coward]

Mod parent up. Being a parent is always a work in progress with levels of complexity. My wife takes my son with her to the gynecologist one day because there is nobody to take care of him and she is a stay at home mom. Giving him a phone to play on with a new game versus him sitting in this tiny office listening intently instead of passively to questions about female genitals? Its lose lose and you can call us terrible parents but life isn't perfect so sacrifices are made to keep moving forward.

Re:They should require refund window

[sjames]

It's not the specifically authorized purchases that parents are protesting. It's followup purchases in the inadequately documented 15 minute window following that specifically authorized purchase that they're complaining about.

Stupidity should be punished and it is indeed quite stupid to assume that if someone authorizes a specific purchase that they are also authorizing additional purchases for the next 15 minutes unless they specifically say so.

Re:They should require refund window

[Pi1grim]

Very little incentive. Which is a good thing. I don't want crappy free games, that nag me to buy content on every corner. I want the full package for the full price. Current in-app purchase business model hides all the costs in extra items so in total the price comes up to a rather high number.
Can't wait till writers implement something like that. "to read how our hero defeated the magic dragon please buy this 5-page abstract". "to get a clue about how the villain tricked the police, please buy this 2-page abstract".

Re: They should require refund window

[sjames]

It shouldn't require a trick. I set up my android without a credit card.

Re: They should require refund window

[_Shad0w_]

And American, I suspect. I didn't get the reference; I don't think I ever saw a Bloom County comic in the UK when I was growing up.

Re:They should require refund window

[Anonymous Coward]

I think the refund window should start only after all portions of the app or game have been completely downloaded. There have been a couple of times where I bought a game on Google Play and it only sends me the launcher, which then needs to run and download an additional 1 to 3 gigs which takes more than fifteen minutes. I end up not liking the game, but I'm screwed because they unfairly start the timer the instant you click "buy" instead of when I am first able to actually see what I paid for.

Re:They should require refund window

[thetoadwarrior]

The no password buy window is 15 minutes. If parents are irresponsible enough to allow kids free reign of their iphone with their card details for 15 minutes then a 15 minute window probably isn't enough.

Re:They should require refund window

[thetoadwarrior]

I think it's to avoid sending out dozens of emails for people who do buy a lot. If I buy 15 songs off itunes it would annoy me to get 15 receipts so it makes sense.

Re:They should require refund window

[thetoadwarrior]

How many TVs hold all your personal details, allow you to spend hundreds and can be dropped in the toilet by a 5 year old?

Re: They should require refund window

[jo_ham]

Cool story bro, where's the "-1 hilariously wrong" mod.

You absolutely 100% do not need to enter a credit card to set up an Apple ID - I just created two apple IDs for my cousins on new computers that they purchased. Number of credit cards I needed to enter to set up two new, unique Apple IDs: Zero.

Re: They should require refund window

[jo_ham]

You don't even need to do that. Setting up an Apple ID does not require a credit card. It costs $0, and takes about 5 minutes.

Re:They should require refund window

[Lumpy]

Mine show up 8 seconds after in my email. how in the world are yours taking 2 days to get the purchase recipt email?

Re: They should require refund window

[jo_ham]

It shouldn't require a trick. I set up my android without a credit card.

That's why it doesn't. You do not need a credit card to set up an Apple ID. The original poster claiming that Apple "forces" you to put in a credit card is lying.

Re: They should require refund window

[Lumpy]

Worthless? Quaaludes were still only $0.10 each in the 70's you could get enough to keep you baked for a solid week for 2 bucks.

Re:They should require refund window

[Lumpy]

That was pre scubag things like "in app purchases"

Allowing that opens the door to scumbaggery. All mobile platforms need to slam the door shut on the "in app purchase" crap.

Re: They should require refund window

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't know what to say here. I had lion and decided to move to mavericks. A box came up asking for my applied and I hit create a new one. Then we got into this whole credit card thing. I didn't see any option to bypass. Each time I tried to enter something it authenticated and determined it was an invalid card.

May have missed something, but certainly not lying...

Re:They should require refund window

[Lumpy]

You use your ipad as your smartphone? That will look really silly when you answer a phone call.

Re: They should require refund window

[Anonymous Coward]

And my motiviation for lying would be?

Old mac pro G5 never asked for an "appleID" to get updates.

Intel mac pro, same thing for the most part.

Now even updates are tied to the "app store" and it needs an id?

Re: They should require refund window

[Anonymous Coward]

So you are on my side and apple should have made it more clear on the apple ID creation site instead of makign me google how to create an ID without a credit card?

To Paranoid?
Why do i need to have some "enduring relationship" with them?

Because i have some of their equipment i need to hand over my CC and other details as well?

PS - WIndows update has never asked for any of this....
PSS - any Linux distro has never asked for it eaither

Re:They should require refund window

[mjr167]

I let my 3 year old play with my iPad and she doesn't slam it into the floor and treats it pretty nice. She also can't read so every time she gets into a screen that isn't her app she comes running to me cause it's "broken". You are much more likely to have a teenager or other school aged child purchasing things than a toddler.

Re:They should require refund window

[mjr167]

Cause parents don't need to cook dinner, pee, buy groceries, or clean up all the poop that just exploded out of the baby's butt without the three year old dancing in it?

Re:They should require refund window

[squiggleslash]

I guess you're either not a parent, or you've never been a child, or perhaps you don't understand English. Or maybe you are a parent, but your kid has some kind of brain damage whereby she's incapable of showing emotion.

In the real world, parents need to do everything from prepare food for the kid to clean up her diaper. If she's acting up, that's a problem for a variety of reasons, one of which is that it means the child isn't being stimulated. Children of all ages act up. They do. Mine doesn't like bibs. She doesn't like being strapped into a high chair. She doesn't like waiting with nothing to do. She doesn't like lying down for a diaper change.

Of course, she's my kid, so she's smart, so she gets bored if not stimulated in some way. Yours, I'm assume, if you have one, is not so much, so is easily left strapped into a high chair with nothing to do with her thinking nothing but "Uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.". It's the only way to explain your position.

In fact, it's hard to see how you're anything other than 180 degrees wrong. If you think there's ever a situation where you shouldn't be attentive to your kid, you suck as a parent. Seriously.

Re:They should require refund window

[Anonymous Coward]

I actually agree with this guy.

I have been an advocator of iPad shouldn't be for kids since the iPad began to trend that parents were using it to distract their kids with it.

I'm not sure if I can give a machine worth half a grand to a kid and have him break or play with it. They don't know any better and you can't blame Apple fully for this. Notice the richer parents aren't chiming into this argument at all. They give their kids their own iPad to play with and promptly lock it down so they can't do any unnecessary purchases. While the rest of the parental populace are not in mind to get separate iPads but share the one they use (and inherently are too lazy to enter the apple ID and password each time) and leave everything unlocked. Being lazy is ok if you're the only user.

And to the idiots using "Giving their kid a boy" reference. Are you guys dumb-asses; obviously those use that reference are not parents.
1) Any parent would giving them a ball to play would have ran the basics of what not to do with the ball. Do they do the same with the iPad, of course not; kids probably wouldn't understand. So you learn to lock down the iPad (which is your responsibility).
2) You child-proof the cabinet with chemicals under your sink, the edges of tables, why not the iPad?

Apple isn't technically at majority of fault; they do a review of the app to make sure there is no stealing of your information, the app isn't some scam, and it follows guidelines on additional in-game purchases with confirmations screens and labeling of prices in a clear way. It is technically up to the user (which they never advertised that babies should be using it in any of their commercials).

Re: They should require refund window

[Anonymous Coward]

https://discussions.apple.com/thread/3955842?tstart=0

Maybe there was a step i missed as well, or something wrong with how i did it?

I recall it telling me i had two id's (itunes and apple ID) or such. I was then presented with a form with the top section being for CC details.

I dont recall seeing an option to skip this, and when i tried it just highlighted things in red indicating an error in the form.

Re: They should require refund window

[Anonymous Coward]

https://discussions.apple.com/thread/3955842?tstart=0

15,062 Views

So me and 15,062 people have a similar issue then?

I know, me and 15K people are wrong?

Re:They should require refund window

[Anonymous Coward]

Did apple know to take their 30% cut?

Re: They should require refund window

[DexterIsADog]

Worthless? Quaaludes were still only $0.10 each in the 70's you could get enough to keep you baked for a solid week for 2 bucks.

You're right, I forgot about that. Rorer 714, mmm mmm good!

Re:They should require refund window

[viperidaenz]

So everyone with an iPad requires an iPhone?

Re:They should require refund window

[Anonymous Coward]

So now you want Apple to pay for the windows your kid broke with the ball?

Of course not, Microsoft should pay! What does Apple have to do with windows?

Re:They should require refund window

[Anonymous Coward]

When I buy an app and discover it is a steaming turd, I should be able to click to remove it and get a refund within 15 minutes. That way the parent should see the charges and then reverse them easily. Granted if the parent is too stupid to check why they are getting 30 email alerts in a row after little johnny jumped on the ipad... That's their own fault.

Totally their fault. Any parent who does not have their eyeballs literally superglued to their email client for fifteen whole minutes is a subhuman untermensch who should be consigned to the ovens. Sympathy and empathy are for the weak. I'm glad we can see eye to screen on this, Mr. Lumpy, and with your language skills there's a place for you in modern politics I must say.

Re: They should require refund window

[jo_ham]

https://discussions.apple.com/thread/3955842?tstart=0

Maybe there was a step i missed as well, or something wrong with how i did it?

I recall it telling me i had two id's (itunes and apple ID) or such. I was then presented with a form with the top section being for CC details.

I dont recall seeing an option to skip this, and when i tried it just highlighted things in red indicating an error in the form.

Literally the first result on google for how to do it: http://support.apple.com/kb/HT2534?viewlocale=en_US&locale=en_US

I googled "how to set up apple id without credit card" and pressed "I'm feeling lucky".

Seriously, this is not hard.

Re: They should require refund window

[R3d M3rcury]

Not originally, but now I'm like totally into it, y'know?

Re: They should require refund window

[jo_ham]

Literally the first result on google (I assumer you've heard of it?) is how to do just that.

So I assume you and 15K people are too stupid to press "I'm feeling lucky" on google.

Don't worry, it happens.

Re: They should require refund window

[Anonymous Coward]

Guess we cant all be as smart as you ;)

Re: They should require refund window

[Anonymous Coward]

And my motiviation for lying would be?

Is that a trick question? But yeah, you could simply be that dumb.

Re: They should require refund window

[Anonymous Coward]

To Paranoid? Why do i need to have some "enduring relationship" with them?

Because you want to keep getting updates to your OS? Because you have to do the same fucking thing even for updating Linux?

Re: They should require refund window

[Plumpaquatsch]

https://discussions.apple.com/thread/3955842?tstart=0

15,062 Views

So me and 15,062 people have a similar issue then?

I know, me and 15K people are wrong?

That's not much compared to 575 million iTunes accounts (last June).

I'll believe it when I see it

[vinn01]

Apple was pure evil about this. I got my kid an iPod touch a few years ago. I set him up with his own AppleID, and loaded his iTunes account with a generous iTunes gift card. I told him that there were lots of free apps and he should save his money by playing the free apps.

A couple months later he complained that he could not download any more free apps. I checked his account and he had spent his entire iTunes gift card. You need money in your iTunes account to download a free app. He got very upset and pleaded with me that he had only downloaded free app and he had not gone crazy downloading high priced junk.

I was able to generate a detailed listing of his iTunes purchases. All the gift card money has been spent on in-game purchases. He had no idea that he was purchasing anything. He showed me. The game would ask if the player wanted something (more time, more bullets, more lives, etc.) and ask for the AppleID password. It was entirely unclear that he was spending real money. No sales receipt was ever generated. I complained to Apple and was told that they don't control in-game purchases and that since we didn't buy anything from "Apple", they could not refund anything. I'm sure that didn't stop Apple from collecting fees on the in-game app purchases.

Will my son get his gift card money back? I doubt it.

Re:I'll believe it when I see it

[Penguinisto]

You need money in your iTunes account to download a free app.

1) They changed this behavior at least since 2010 - you don't even need a card (of any type) to open an account nowadays.
2) App Store and iTunes are two different entities.
3) If the kid is younger than 13 or so, why the hell did you not control the password?
4) FYI: kids at that age lie. A lot.

Re:I'll believe it when I see it

[Anonymous Coward]

You need money in your iTunes account to download a free app.

Bullshit. You do not need any money (CC#, gift card, or otherwise) attached to your Apple ID to download free apps.

He got very upset and pleaded with me that he had only downloaded free app and he had not gone crazy downloading high priced junk.

I was able to generate a detailed listing of his iTunes purchases. All the gift card money has been spent on in-game purchases. He had no idea that he was purchasing anything. He showed me. The game would ask if the player wanted something (more time, more bullets, more lives, etc.) and ask for the AppleID password. It was entirely unclear that he was spending real money.

Bullshit. From the start, in-app purchases popped up a notification confirming the purchase, with the dollar amount right there in the confirmation.

No sales receipt was ever generated.

Bullshit. Apple sends purchase receipts (for apps, in-app purchases, everything) to the primary email address you registered with the Apple ID.

This here is a perfect example of how stupid and inattentive a parent had to be to allow a kid to rack up crazy charges. You put money on your kids account, and gave him full access to spend it all - and, despite notifications that he was spending actual money (which he and, apparently, YOU both clicked through without even reading), he went ahead and spent it all. And now you're whining about it.

Re:I'll believe it when I see it

[Roogna]

See, and I handled this problem by using MY AppleID, turning off the App Store, In-App Purchases, and setting the password timeout to immediately and turning on parental controls. Then, if my 6 year old daughter wants something she has to *gasp* ask her parent, just like I had to when I was a kid. Which means that I can then look at it and make an informed decision about that purchase. Yes it means I have to turn back on some things, type in my password, and turn them back off, but it also means I get to monitor what she's buying and discuss the purchases with her. Like... a parent.

Or do you also just hand your obviously young kid gift cards and drop them off at the mall?

Re:I'll believe it when I see it

[KingOfBLASH]

I call BS.

In app purchases clearly say that they cost something. $0.99 for more energy or whatever you're buying.

The problem is that giving a kid an iphone with an apple account is like giving them a credit card. And, given the self control of most children, even if you think yours is different, it's a very dumb idea to give them a credit card.

Re:I'll believe it when I see it

[KingOfBLASH]

Exactly. It's the exact same as if you give your kid a $20 and he goes to the arcade. There's no "free" games and it's highly likely that he'll want more money. That's not really evil on Apple's part.

The prevalence of in app purchases is disappointing though. I'd prefer to pay a couple bucks for an app and have it work all the time (without any "energy" issues). But because some users have more money that good sense, the business model of give the app away for free charge a shit ton is for some strange reason prevalent.

Re:I'll believe it when I see it

[gerardrj]

Minor correction:
You do need a payment method to open the iTunes Store account. After 24 hours you may remove the payment method from the account, but the CC is a form of identity and age verification in the process.

Re:I'll believe it when I see it

[Anonymous Coward]

1) Pretty sure you don't need money or a credit card attached to your iTunes account to download a free app.

2) In-game purchases are, and have almost always been sneaky. I used to work at a gaming company. We do this shit because it's easy and everyone demands freemium games these days. So it's not exactly Apple's fault there. You should blame the gaming companies. Or, you know, blaming yourself for not educating your son about those slimy bastards we are. And spending time with him and watching him play games and stop him before he makes purchases.

Or, spend the money you spent on the gift card and buy him a real nanny or babysitter.

Re:I'll believe it when I see it

[Joe_Dragon]

that screen shot should have USD or other in front of the price.

Re:I'll believe it when I see it

[knarf]

And this, dear reader, is why you don't give iDevices to children. If you insist on giving them a touch-screen thing, get something running Android, don't activate a Google account on it - or even better install an alternative Android distribution and keep the thing Google-free - and side-load a few free games which you downloaded on another device through the Play store. Android runs fine without Google, you do not need anything else than the device and some software to run on it. No credit card. No 'iTunes gift card' equivalent. No Google account. Just hardware and the software you want to run on it.

Any computing device which comes with a mandatory credit account is off-limits in my opinion. It is the equivalent of a slot machine or a pay-to-play arcade game, not a personal computing device.

Re:I'll believe it when I see it

[alen]

i have 2 iphones and 2 ipads which my kids also use
the oldest one knows not to do any in app purchasing and there it asks for a password every time you buy something. not only that you have to tap the area that says spend this much for so much coins or new level or whatever. apple makes sure the devs are clear. and there is always an email about something being purchased

do some parenting next time

this is like a kids in the 80's ordering porn and other pay per view and telling their parents that they had no idea they did it

Re:I'll believe it when I see it

[Anonymous Coward]

You need money in your iTunes account to download a free app.

This part, thankfully, is no longer true. I set up my dad with an iPad for his birthday last March, and he steadfastly refused to add his credit card. He can still download and play all the free cribbage apps he wants.

Re:I'll believe it when I see it

[vinn01]

Yes, I have been known to give my kid a Target gift card and drop him off at Target.

And I review his purchases - like a parent. I call it "trust, but verify". Unlike Apple, Target provides a sales receipt. Also unlike Apple, Target puts a price tag on things. They don't call anything "free", when it's not.

Re:I'll believe it when I see it

[vinn01]

The BS is Apple calling it a free app.

When you're playing a game, the concept of money is game money. A lot of games let you earn and spend money. Why would anyone playing a game, and presented with a choice like "do you want more energy for $0.99?", think that they are spending real USD money? Especially in a "free app".

Re:I'll believe it when I see it

[Anonymous Coward]

IT HAS A DOLLAR SIGN you blind idiot. This is why we have ten fluorescent warning stickers affixed to everything we buy nowadays - people are grossly incompetent and are happy to sue over it.

Re:I'll believe it when I see it

[Anonymous Coward]

Apple provides a sales receipt to the email address you set the account up with. If you're too fucking stupid to check your email (or stupid enough to use a throwaway email account for something involving monetary purchases) you deserve what you get. On top of that, you can check the account's purchase history online or on the device.

The in-app purchase dialog explicitly tells you what things will cost before you buy them. Nobody is lying to you about anything.

You have no excuse, you incompetent boob.

Re:I'll believe it when I see it

[farble1670]

No sales receipt was ever generated. I complained to Apple and was told that they don't control in-game purchases and that since we didn't buy anything from "Apple", they could not refund anything

i had a similar situation, where my son spent $100+ of real money on in-app purchases. i emailed apple and they refunded it, with a stern warning that this would be the last time i'd get a refund ... which seemed completely fair.

Re:I'll believe it when I see it

[vinn01]

Before you call "Bullshit", maybe you should consider the possibility that Apple has changed it's back-end processing since "a few years ago".

When I said "You need money in your iTunes account to download a free app.", I was not saying that the Apple system currently works this way. But it did work that way "a few years ago".

Do you really think that the Apple system works identically today as it did "a few years ago?"

/ get off my lawn.

Re:I'll believe it when I see it

[immaterial]

False.

Re:I'll believe it when I see it

[hondo77]

Why would anyone playing a game, and presented with a choice like "do you want more energy for $0.99?", think that they are spending real USD money?

Because they have a clue.

Re:I'll believe it when I see it

[AK Marc]

Bullshit. You do not need any money (CC#, gift card, or otherwise) attached to your Apple ID to download free apps.

Having had an iTunes account (Apple ID) fail to download free games after a CC expiration date passed until I followed the instructions to update the payment method, I think you are wrong. Perhaps there is a way to make it work, but not easily, and certainly not in the Apple-no-hassle way Apple users come to expect.

Re:I'll believe it when I see it

[Em Adespoton]

Minor correction:
You do need a payment method to open the iTunes Store account. After 24 hours you may remove the payment method from the account, but the CC is a form of identity and age verification in the process.

This makes no sense... you can open an account using a gift card -- which says absolutely nothing about identity or age verification.

Re:I'll believe it when I see it

[AK Marc]

When you walk out of the Target, you get the receipt. With Apple, you get the receipt days later, after they batch your purchases together. That's close enough to lying. Why not give an immediate email confirmation? Oh, then people might notice and cancel the purchase.

Re:I'll believe it when I see it

[Mr.123]

I've opened a lot of accounts in the last 3 years with nothing attached to them for older people. It can absolutely be done.

Re:I'll believe it when I see it

[Em Adespoton]

Apple doesn't provide a receipt? Funny... I've always got a (delayed) email receipt that aggregates the month's purchases, and have been able to review purchases in iTunes. ...

However, I just double checked, and iTunes appears to be the ONLY!?!?! way to review purchases -- if you use your device OTA and make purchases OTA, the only way you can review purchases is when Apple emails the transaction receipt -- there appears to be no other means of getting at your purchase info other than via iTunes.

Re:I'll believe it when I see it

[Em Adespoton]

The BS is Apple calling it a free app.

When you're playing a game, the concept of money is game money. A lot of games let you earn and spend money. Why would anyone playing a game, and presented with a choice like "do you want more energy for $0.99?", think that they are spending real USD money? Especially in a "free app".

Well, the prompt that you're about to spend real money and do you want to authorize this, followed by a prompt for your account ID and password should be a clue. The prompt is very obviously not a game prompt.

Re:I'll believe it when I see it

[geekoid]

"In app purchases clearly say that they cost something. $0.99 for more energy or whatever you're buying."
false... unless Apple has made some changes.
There where a lot of games geared towards young children that had in app purchase that just look liked you were playing.
The were in indistinguishable as spending money to any young person. Like a game where you op[en chests, but every once in a while one of the chest would cost money and the user would get a message like 'The will cost 399 star points, do you want it?" Bang, yo are dinged for 3.99 in an email 2 days later.
But wait, there is more!
While play, there would be several off them, and in the game you could also get something called Strr Points' which were different then the star point that cost money.

I know, becasue I got an email 2 days later saying that has spent over 500 dollars. I looked at the game, and you need some life skills toy even consider what they where doing was actually charging money.
I called Apple, they started to bulk and I said 'My child is under 13' at which point the immediately refunded me.

It wasn't star points, but it's been a few years and all I remember is the word 'money' or anything like it appeared.
My child was 7 and knew enough that if the work money had appeared, or it looked like a purchase, she would have asked.

There are a lot of sleazy developers out there creating apps that look fine for kids, but after a while of playing they try to trick people into doing something that costs money.

Re:I'll believe it when I see it

[geekoid]

Fuck you.

The email comes days later, and for a long time some games gave no indication you were spending money becasue the devs could call it what ever they wanted.

It's not about parenting, its about some apps worked hard to disguise the fact the user were spending money.

"this is like a kids in the 80's ordering porn and other pay per view and telling their parents that they had no idea they did it"
No, it's nothing like that.

Re:I'll believe it when I see it

[perpenso]

Do you really think that the Apple system works identically today as it did "a few years ago?"

The requirement for a CC or money in the account may very well have changed. However in-app purchases have ALWAYS been performed by Apple's App Store app and have ALWAYS included a confirmation that showed the item and its price. The game may offer an in-app but it can't perform the purchase, only the Apple App Store app can do that.

Re:I'll believe it when I see it

[alen]

don't give your kids the password and approve every purchase

every single app page lists the top IAP for that app and every app i've seen it clearly says how much it costs to buy in game money, gems or whatever. and then it asks for your itunes password to approve it.

kids will lie. my 6 year old is learning how to lie to get his way

Re:I'll believe it when I see it

[dk20]

I created an "appleID" a week ago, it absolutely refused to move forward until i entered a VALID credit card. I tried to enter one and it was unhappy as it was a US card and said i was in canada at the time. Clicking the small "change this location" allowed me to proceed. Granted this was on "Mavericks" and all i wanted was the updates so unsure about the credit card requirement.

Re:I'll believe it when I see it

[Anonymous Coward]

click sort by price and see the ones listed as "Free"?

Re:I'll believe it when I see it

[sjwt]

Sure, as the mall gift card wont magically increases to keep eating at my credit card.

For a more appropriate analogy..
You and your kids go to target, you buy something, then 10 minutes later they walk though the check out with what ever the hell they want and Target automatically charges you. At no point did they advise that they setup a system that automatically tracks who you enter the store with and will bill all purchases to you.

You can opt out, but having not been advised of this in the first place, good luck

Re:I'll believe it when I see it

[Plumpaquatsch]

that screen shot should have USD or other in front of the price.

Because an 8 year old will know what "USD" means, but that "$" means real money?

Re:I'll believe it when I see it

[vinn01]

> every single app page lists the top IAP for that app and every app i've seen it clearly says how much it costs to buy in game money, gems or whatever. and then it asks for your itunes password to approve it.

Do you really think that the apps, every single app, has always had those features? Is the world full of sunshine and rainbows in your world?

The app devs were forced to add those features because Apple was taking some serious heat from angry people who were tricked by apps that had none of those features.

Re:I'll believe it when I see it

[vinn01]

> Because they have a clue.

Of course, in app purchases have been around since the dawn of computing. People are so clueless about new features that apps develop. People should be born knowing what app features are currently in development.

I bet in app purchases have been around your whole life.

Re:I'll believe it when I see it

[KingOfBLASH]

Technically it IS a free app.

It used to be games had "cheat codes" to allow people who didn't want to put in the time and energy to master a game to move to the front of the row.

Then someone figured out if you get rid of the cheat codes you can make people pay.

I do understand though. It is frustrating that since the introduction of the iPhone shareware has been passed off as fully functional software.

Re:I'll believe it when I see it

[KingOfBLASH]

Do you even own an iPhone?

I've had an iPhone for a couple years now, and it's always been clear to me when an app wanted my money.

Re:I'll believe it when I see it

[Firethorn]

Because they have a clue.

I have clue. You have clue. We're adults. It takes time, and often being burned, for kids to develop 'clue' because it's more than just deductive reasoning, it requires knowledge of how the world works.

Mom's told me that as a very young child when I learned that 'paper money' was more valuable than 'coin money' I got upset and wanted paper money in exchange for things I bought when I gave them paper. Learning relational stuff, like how the item I was getting was in exchange for the money took a bit more time. On the other hand, I apparently took to the idea that I only got a limited amount of money to spend on what I wanted very seriously, and it drastically cut down on whining for cheap stuff*. When you only have $2 suddenly that toy that costs $2 but I knew even then would likely break before we get home doesn't look like a deal anymore.

Re:I'll believe it when I see it

[Joe_Dragon]

needs both to help it be disconnected from in game cash that may use an $

Re:I'll believe it when I see it

[immaterial]

Will my son get his gift card money back? I doubt it.

Apple sent out offers to refund any and all in-app purchases anyone thought were inappropriate a year ago the first time they settled this (the class-action suit). They contacted you both via email to the address registered to the affected account, and by physical mail to the physical address registered to the account. I think you missed the boat.

Re:I'll believe it when I see it

[Anubis IV]

He had no idea that he was purchasing anything. He showed me. The game would ask if the player wanted something (more time, more bullets, more lives, etc.) and ask for the AppleID password. It was entirely unclear that he was spending real money.

It sounds like you may have simply not gotten to the point where you were spending real money. With my iOS device, clicking on an IAP prompts me to enter my Apple ID credentials, then prompts me with an OS-level notification to confirm that I want to spend X amount for a purchase. That's been the behavior since day one of IAP in iOS, as far as I can recall, and that prompt will show up regardless of if you're in the 15-minute window or not. That you didn't see that prompt suggests to me that you may have stopped before you entered your Apple ID credentials. That your son says he received no notification suggests to me that he either ignored it or is intentionally misleading you (without knowing your son, I'd be more inclined to believe the former).

No sales receipt was ever generated.

Again, it sounds like you may have not actually spent any money, which would explain why no receipt was generated. Because otherwise, what you're saying doesn't line up with the e-mails I have in my archives that indicate the opposite. I just double-checked, and I was able to find receipts from Apple for IAP as far back as January 2012, as well as receipts for items that were purchased using store credit I had received from gift cards (note: the gift card only covered part of the purchase, so I will admit that I cannot provide sufficient evidence to exclude the possibility that if the purchase is wholly via a gift card a receipt may not be generated).

Re:I'll believe it when I see it

[gnasher719]

Apple was pure evil about this. I got my kid an iPod touch a few years ago. I set him up with his own AppleID, and loaded his iTunes account with a generous iTunes gift card. I told him that there were lots of free apps and he should save his money by playing the free apps.

Here's the mistake you made (maybe only obvious in hindsight): You gave him _one_ _generous_ gift card. The kid then made a mistake, and because he had one _generous_ gift card, it was an expensive mistake. He probably learned something. But he would have had the same learning experience from a cheap gift card, and then would have fun with some more cheap gift cards. I think a good strategy for parenting is to let the kids make their mistakes and learn from them, but make sure that the mistakes are not too expensive.

Re:I'll believe it when I see it

[gnasher719]

I created an "appleID" a week ago, it absolutely refused to move forward until i entered a VALID credit card. I tried to enter one and it was unhappy as it was a US card and said i was in canada at the time. Clicking the small "change this location" allowed me to proceed. Granted this was on "Mavericks" and all i wanted was the updates so unsure about the credit card requirement.

You can't open an account with an invalid credit card (or one that isn't accepted in that country). You _can_ open an account without a credit card.

Re:I'll believe it when I see it

[gnasher719]

Having had an iTunes account (Apple ID) fail to download free games after a CC expiration date passed until I followed the instructions to update the payment method, I think you are wrong. Perhaps there is a way to make it work, but not easily, and certainly not in the Apple-no-hassle way Apple users come to expect.

Said that before: You can't have an account with an invalid credit card. You can have an account without a credit card. At that point, you could have removed the credit card completely.

Re:I'll believe it when I see it

[gnasher719]

The BS is Apple calling it a free app.

For example, Candy Crush is a decent game that you get for free if you ignore all the in-app purchases. You can play 35 levels, and if you are happy improving your high scores, you get a lot of fun for nothing.

You can buy more levels, which is fine for me because they give value for money, and you actually have to finish the previous levels before you can buy more. Your 10 year old will take months to spend $10 on new levels.

There are of course purchases that are much too expensive. They are also for things that I would consider "cheating".

Re:I'll believe it when I see it

[jo_ham]

I created an "appleID" a week ago, it absolutely refused to move forward until i entered a VALID credit card.

No you didn't. You can drop the lies, you're only fooling people who automatically assume you're correct without checking.

You do not need a credit card to create an Apple ID. You don't even need a gift card.

If you couldn't figure that out, then maybe the problem is with your reading comprehension?

Re: I'll believe it when I see it

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't you worry, apple is perfect and everyone else is wrong (or lying).

Unlike Google where there is an option to skip a cc I did struggle with this and my applied of around a week ago.

Re:I'll believe it when I see it

[Plumpaquatsch]

needs both to help it be disconnected from in game cash that may use an $

Prove that it can.

Re:I'll believe it when I see it

[gnasher719]

No you didn't. You can drop the lies, you're only fooling people who automatically assume you're correct without checking.

In defense of the previous poster, he tried to open an account with an _invalid_ credit card, and Apple does indeed insist that a credit card must be valid. He may have completely missed that having _no_ credit card is OK, but if you enter a credit card, it must be valid.

Re:I'll believe it when I see it

[gnasher719]

When you walk out of the Target, you get the receipt. With Apple, you get the receipt days later, after they batch your purchases together. That's close enough to lying. Why not give an immediate email confirmation? Oh, then people might notice and cancel the purchase.

When you get the receipt, days later, every single purchase is individually listed, and has a link where you can report problems and get your money back. So what exactly is your problem here?

Re:I'll believe it when I see it

[gnasher719]

Will my son get his gift card money back? I doubt it.

Did you try it? Like, by clicking on the link "report a problem", problem description "my kid had no idea that this purchase would actually cost real money".

Re:I'll believe it when I see it

[Anonymous Coward]

And the instructions for removing the credit card are where? I know, google it and get the link others have posted as well?

if you are not buying something why does it matter if the CC is expired?

Re:I'll believe it when I see it

[UncleRage]

No, you don't.

I've created thousands of iTunes accounts and I just bashed out 70 Monday morning (I'm an Apple sysadmin with over 4 thousand iPads in a large school district, no underlings, minions or temps at my disposal. How I wish Apple would allow for a simple .csv import to create accounts...).

You don't even need to specify a "free" account as it now defaults that way -- as long as you begin the process by "buying" a free app. All you need is an email address to receive the verification email.

My workflow starts with iBooks. It's free, so the follow up "payment options" is defaulted to "None" when building the account itself.

Re:I'll believe it when I see it

[david_thornley]

Excellent. You obviously know how to handle something like this well.

Most people don't, and it isn't obvious how to do that. You and I are comfortable digging in Settings until we find what we want. Not everybody is.

Re:I'll believe it when I see it

[david_thornley]

don't give your kids the password and approve every purchase

Did you know that, when you enter your password for a purchase, it allows you to make more purchases without entering it for the next fifteen minutes? I do, because I observe how these things work, and I know where to turn it off because I'm comfortable digging through Settings to find some obscure option or other. I don't remember ever seeing Apple announce the fifteen-minute window, and I don't remember being told where to turn off the window.

The window is convenient for when I want to buy several apps, or make several in-app purchases, at a time. It's also convenient for unscrupulous game designers who write freemium games for young children and hope to dupe them into making purchases.

If you knew how to disable the window, and that you had to, you were in no danger here. If not, well....

Re:I'll believe it when I see it

[AK Marc]

That the purchase and receipt are not temporally related. How hard is it to email an order acceptance, rather than waiting for the financials to be processed?

Re:I'll believe it when I see it

[AK Marc]

How do I remove a credit card? It isn't an obvious option when it gives you an "invalid card" error.

I looked up the instructions just now, and it appears you must have a valid card to remove a card, so the directions (second hand, as Apple gives no explicit instructions I could find) "At that point, you could have removed the credit card completely." is factually incorrect.

Prove me wrong. Please. Tell us the directions on how to remove a card from an account when the card attached to it is invalid. You said it like it was trivial, so you should be able to back that up with something, right?

Re:I'll believe it when I see it

[Anonymous Coward]

Maybe, but you don't even need to enter a credit card number at all to set up a new Apple ID. I just tried it with one of my alternate email addresses. If you go to the website and create a new Apple ID, all it wants is your name, email address, mailing address, and a password. I successfully created a new AppleID and it never once asked me to enter a credit card. It wasn't even an optional line. Maybe this is different if you're trying to do it from a mobile device? I was using my desktop computer.

Re: I'll believe it when I see it

[jo_ham]

How did you struggle with something that takes 5 seconds to google?

I'm genuinely curious how so many supposed "tech experts", i.e. comfortable enough with technology to be posting on a site like slashdot, can struggle so desperately with something as simple as setting up an Apple ID with no credit card - the answer to which is literally the first result on google when you search "how to set up apple id without credit card".

They struggle so much that they feel the need to post their ignorance for the world to see, and for the easy karma.

Re:I'll believe it when I see it

[serialband]

False.

While those instructions exist, they don't always work. I've signed up without needing a card before. I've also signed up my son without a needing a credit card, but it took several tries. I couldn't get the same thing to work for my wife's account later on, even after following that page's instructions step by step. I've tried several times on OSX & Windows, then iPhone & iPad. I even created new email accounts to test it, but that none button just didn't exist for me. I had a card that was expiring at the time, so I just broke down and entered that information after wasting an hour trying, but they do lie with that page when it doesn't always work.

I've even had to create a new account for myself one time because my first one started prompting me for a credit card for updates, when I've never installed anything but free apps. It's deceptive business practice, if they provide instructions for something that sometimes works and sometimes doesn't. I really wish all those free apps would remain available on their home pages instead of moving to the App Store only.

Re: I'll believe it when I see it

[serialband]

How did you struggle with something that takes 5 seconds to google?

I'm genuinely curious how so many supposed "tech experts", i.e. comfortable enough with technology to be posting on a site like slashdot, can struggle so desperately with something as simple as setting up an Apple ID with no credit card - the answer to which is literally the first result on google when you search "how to set up apple id without credit card".

They struggle so much that they feel the need to post their ignorance for the world to see, and for the easy karma.

Because those instructions don't always work. I've used them to create accounts without a need for a credit card, but sometimes it's a struggle to get it to work. There are times when you follow the instructions to the letter and the none button just never appears. In those cases, sometimes starting over with a new email address allows it to work, but sometimes it doesn't. I've encountered this problem helping other people and it's basically deceptive that they have those instructions that don't always work.

Re:I'll believe it when I see it

[serialband]

They might have different servers and some have the none button available and some don't. I've followed those instructions before to create accounts and it sometimes just doesn't work. The most recent one was during September 2013 when I finally just entered an expiring credit card number. It took several tries in August 2013 to finally get that button to appear, but it took 2 hours and a few new email & appleID account creations to finally see the none selection.

I've learned long ago that just because they post instructions, doesn't make it true.

Re:I'll believe it when I see it

[dk20]

SO you checked?
Perhaps you can also explain why when i entered my email address it determined i have two accounts and asked me to select which i wanted to become an "apple ID"?
Not sure who i am "fooling" as clearly others have similiar issues. Dont worry, as you posted elsewhere on this thread everyone else is wrong.

Here are a few new questions for you:

1) why do you have such a vested interest here? You have posted multiple times on this thread normally taking the classic "positional bargaining approach" where you call me a liar or stupid.
2) you seem to gloss over the other items i listed, why is that?

B) As others have stated stop calling them "magic berries" or such, its really money. You dont think this was intentional?
C) again as others have pointed out. Apple reviews and approves every app. How do you approve an app for that age range and allow "in app purchases"?

Is that because they are valid?
Candy Crush for example has a age rating of "6". Do 6 year olds understand the concept of money and paying for things?

Re:I'll believe it when I see it

[Anonymous Coward]

Purchase and receipt aren't temporally related because they're not temporally related. You get the receipt when you walk out of Target in order to prove that you have paid. You get the receipt for an online purchase for the same reason--to prove that you have paid, which is when the charge is completed, whether that's before, concurrent to, or after receiving the item. You get an order confirmation only when you have both not yet paid and also not yet received the item.

So why bother with a pointless email? All it can do is tell you either what you already know or what has no immediate effect. You can't take any action based on that information. You can't issue a refund until the charge posts to your bank account. You don't need an order acknowledgment when the order is filled immediately. You can't undo the transaction any faster by getting a redundant email.

Re:I'll believe it when I see it

[AK Marc]

At Target, you get the receipt when you pay. That's temporally related. With Apple, you get it sometime later.

So why bother with a pointless email? All it can do is tell you either what you already know or what has no immediate effect. You can't take any action based on that information. You can't issue a refund until the charge posts to your bank account. You don't need an order acknowledgment when the order is filled immediately. You can't undo the transaction any faster by getting a redundant email.

So you are asserting that the people who had the children buy multiple items wouldn't have stopped it after the first, if they were timely notified? That's a pretty stupid argument to be making.

Re:I'll believe it when I see it

[Plumpaquatsch]

That the purchase and receipt are not temporally related. How hard is it to email an order acceptance, rather than waiting for the financials to be processed?

You want an email for every single song you buy? Right when you buy it? Annoying you with a "you've got new mail" message sound when you are still looking around in the store?

Would you also want Target to give you a new receipt whenever you put something in your shopping cart?

Re:I'll believe it when I see it

[Plumpaquatsch]

Yeah, and when credit cards were new, people assumed they didn't pay with real money when they used them.

Re:I'll believe it when I see it

[Plumpaquatsch]

"In app purchases clearly say that they cost something. $0.99 for more energy or whatever you're buying." false... unless Apple has made some changes. There where a lot of games geared towards young children that had in app purchase that just look liked you were playing. The were in indistinguishable as spending money to any young person. Like a game where you op[en chests, but every once in a while one of the chest would cost money and the user would get a message like 'The will cost 399 star points, do you want it?" Bang, yo are dinged for 3.99 in an email 2 days later.

Care to provide some evidence?

Re:I'll believe it when I see it

[Plumpaquatsch]

The app devs were forced to add those features because Apple was taking some serious heat from angry people who were tricked by apps that had none of those features.

[citation needed]

Re:I'll believe it when I see it

[vinn01]

"We heard from some customers with children that it was too easy to make in-app purchases, so we moved quickly to make improvements. We even created additional steps in the purchasing process, because these steps are so helpful to parents."

- Apple CEO Tim Cook

Re:I'll believe it when I see it

[jo_ham]

I didn't "gloss over" the other sections of the argument, I'm simply not arguing those points (I agree that it was a terrible system as set up by default and that these in-app purchase "freemium" games are a cancer on the face of the app store), so there's that. You appear to have assumed I am totally pro-Apple because I disagree with you.

The reason I am posting is that your (and others) information is provably factually incorrect, based on very simple google searches that link directly to sources provided by Apple.

I've then been challenged that these instructions "don't always work", in a move-the-goalposts argument (the previous argument being that they are "forcing" you to use a credit card and that "there's no way to do it without one", and when they get called on the bullshit it's suddenly "oh, we;ll it's deceptive practice because it doesn't always work". Those two arguments are not the same.

The "doesn't always work" argument also seems fishy, but I am obviously not able to directly refute that except with anecdotal evidence. I have set up perhaps 10 or 12 different Apple IDs for various people over the past few years and none of them have ever run into this problem. I always set them up without a credit card so they can get going, and tell them they can add one later if they want to purchase things. So, in my personal experience it has always worked, but obviously a dozen or so data points is not enough to say definitively. However, it is enough to point out that the original argument, as stated (that is is impossible, and that Apple forces you to put in a CC with no way to get around it) is totally false.

Re:I'll believe it when I see it

[AK Marc]

But they do. I have a record of everything in my cart, live. It's visible in my cart, I can see it.

The issue is that Apple deliberately made it easy to make follow-on purchases. The Target analogy is that when you are finished checking out, everyone using the line behind you for the next 15 minutes can say "put it on that guy's tab", and Target will send you an invoice later. If you got a purchase text as you were headed to the car, you'd run back in the store to figure out what was going on. The instant reminder wouldn't stop the first follow-on purcahse, but would help limit the extent of the "damage". You could also turn off the notification, if you like.

The real complaint boils down to purchases being as permissive as possible, with minimal notification. That increases the chance of error on the part of the user.

Re:I'll believe it when I see it

[Plumpaquatsch]

But they do. I have a record of everything in my cart, live. It's visible in my cart, I can see it.

And you have the same thing in the "purchased items" page of the iTunes store. Even before the download ended. Do you have any actual problems apart from hating Apple?

Re:I'll believe it when I see it

[Plumpaquatsch]

IOW, no you don't have any evidence for what you claimed.

Re:I'll believe it when I see it

[AK Marc]

I'm forced to review the list before every purchase is processed in Target. Apple has no such checks.

I don't hate Apple. I'm just pointing out the user-hate on Slashdot. Why do you hate users?

Re:I'll believe it when I see it

[Plumpaquatsch]

Will my son get his gift card money back? I doubt it.

Apple sent out offers to refund any and all in-app purchases anyone thought were inappropriate a year ago the first time they settled this (the class-action suit). They contacted you both via email to the address registered to the affected account, and by physical mail to the physical address registered to the account. I think you missed the boat.

Ahh, you are assuming he didn't make the whole thing up.

Re:I'll believe it when I see it

[Plumpaquatsch]

No you didn't. You can drop the lies, you're only fooling people who automatically assume you're correct without checking.

In defense of the previous poster, he tried to open an account with an _invalid_ credit card, and Apple does indeed insist that a credit card must be valid. He may have completely missed that having _no_ credit card is OK, but if you enter a credit card, it must be valid.

That reminds me of the often repeated insistence that Apple requires you to provide an email address to download iTunes - when you only needed one when you had the "send me news by email" option checked.

Re:I'll believe it when I see it

[vinn01]

See if you can follow this -

Apple says: ""We heard from customers ... we moved quickly to make improvements... we created additional steps in the purchasing process"

- and apps changed. Features around in app purchases have changed. Behavior around in app purchases have changed.

- you STILL believe that it's a coincidence? Apple gave directions to app devs about how they needed to behave for in app purchases. They own the protocol. If an app wants to sell, they have to follow the protocol.

Some apps made in app purchases look like part of the game. Using the same look and feel as the game. That changed. I believe that Apple had something to do with those changes.

Re:I'll believe it when I see it

[Plumpaquatsch]

See if you can follow this -

You have already proven you can't. Which is the only thing you have proven.

Re:I'll believe it when I see it

[Plumpaquatsch]

I'm forced to review the list before every purchase is processed in Target. Apple has no such checks.

So you want Apple to show its users a list of every purchase they ever made at all times. Why do you hate users?

Re:I'll believe it when I see it

[Plumpaquatsch]

I'm forced to review the list before every purchase is processed in Target.

So Target's stormtroopers force you to? Why don't you hate Target?

Re:I'll believe it when I see it

[AK Marc]

Target's stormtroopers don't do it. I do. The checkouts aren't full service. I have to pick them out, and once they are in the cart, I have to touch them all again before checkout. Yes, I've found things in the cart that the kids tossed in, and I could set it aside at the checkout. Why can't I do that with Apple?

Re:I'll believe it when I see it

[AK Marc]

I want to be notified when I make a purchase. That's not hating users. Hating users is refusing to even offer that as an option. They could have kept the "regular" way as a default, and added the ability for people who like more information to be able to get it, rather than hiding and delaying the information until it's less useful.

Re:I'll believe it when I see it

[Plumpaquatsch]

How do I remove a credit card?

I heard Windows Phones are much better suited for morons. And if going to the ACCOUNT page and clicking on CHANGE PAYMENT is not fucking obvious to you, you clearly are a moron.

Re:I'll believe it when I see it

[Plumpaquatsch]

So why don't you force yourself to see what you purchased from Apple? Do you suffer from selective self-forceing syndrome?

Re:I'll believe it when I see it

[Plumpaquatsch]

That the purchase and receipt are not temporally related.

That's because payment and receipt are. Just like at Target.

Re:I'll believe it when I see it

[Plumpaquatsch]

At Target, you get the receipt when you pay. That's temporally related. With Apple, you get it sometime later.

Wrong.

Re:I'll believe it when I see it

[AK Marc]

You are wrong. I don't get the receipt when *I* pay, I get it when Apple decides to process my previous payment. Why are you so adamant in arguing with me when you are the one who is wrong?

Re:I'll believe it when I see it

[AK Marc]

Where is the option to receive an email whenever something is ordered, without regard to when payment is processed?

Re:I'll believe it when I see it

[AK Marc]

Nope. When *I* pay (authorizing payment is paying legally, if the payment later fails, the transaction is considered completed - legally), I get a receipt at Target, but not Apple. Note, Target doesn't process the payment until that night, same as Apple, but gives an instant receipt for their acceptance of my "unpaid order" (to use you legally incorrect terms).

Re:I'll believe it when I see it

[Anonymous Coward]

At Target, you get the receipt when you pay. That's temporally related.

No, you get a receipt when you receive the goods. The hint is right there in the name. The receipt is the final settlement--proof of money exchanged for items received.

If you pay but don't receive, no receipt--just an order confirmation. If you receive but don't pay, no receipt--because your possession of the items is adequate proof that you possess the items.

So you are asserting that the people who had the children buy multiple items wouldn't have stopped it after the first, if they were timely notified? That's a pretty stupid argument to be making.

The stupid argument is that a parent who isn't watching their kid's on-device purchases would be any more likely to be watching for an instantaneous email confirmation, when the whole point of giving away the password is because the parent can't be bothered to monitor the child's activities in the first place. Stopping it the same day or a day or two later doesn't change the outcome one bit.

You still haven't provided a reason that explains the actionable function of this redundant email you so desperately seem to want. If you're really concerned, you can just check the purchase history yourself, where transactions appear immediately. What you're complaining about is the equivalent of not getting an email when someone sits down at a bar and opens a tab with your credit card, instead having to wait several hours or overnight for it to be closed before you find out what was spent. It's absurd.

Re:I'll believe it when I see it

[Plumpaquatsch]

Nope. When *I* pay (authorizing payment is paying legally

Nope. You already lost. http://thelawdictionary.org/payment/

Re:I'll believe it when I see it

[Plumpaquatsch]

Where is the option to receive an email whenever something is put in the cart at Target?

FTFY

Re:I'll believe it when I see it

[AK Marc]

I get a vmail. It's visually in front of me at all times. That you don't understand reality will not change it.

Re:I'll believe it when I see it

[AK Marc]

What is PAYMENT?
The [...] promise [of] the delivery of money[...]

Nope, your link agrees with me, and not you. Yes, I had to heavily edit the sentence for readability, as it had lots of inapplicable "or" statements.

Sad when all you can do is link to things you claim contradict me, but support me and prove you wrong. What, were you hoping I wouldn't follow the link? You are 100% wrong, based on the evidence you provided.

Re:I'll believe it when I see it

[Plumpaquatsch]

Good thing you're not blind - well apart from against every company but Apple.

Re:I'll believe it when I see it

[Plumpaquatsch]

What is PAYMENT? The [...] promise [of] the delivery of money[...] Nope, your link agrees with me, and not you.

BY. Not OF. Nice way to manipulate the "quote". Are you a professional liar? Who pays you?

Re:I'll believe it when I see it

[AK Marc]

Who's paying you? I simplified the quote. It isn't incorrect. Why do you care so much? Apple didn't include reasonable checks to prevent undesired charges. They were sued and lost. Your opinion has been proven wrong in a court of law. So why do you insist on insisting that everyone who disagrees with you is wrong? Can you not accept a world where more than one opinion is held? You should seek therapy.

Re:I'll believe it when I see it

[Plumpaquatsch]

Who's paying you? I simplified the quote.

You CHANGED the "quote" to have a different meaning. You must be a politician.

why need an password for free apps? needs more

[Joe_Dragon]

why need an password for free apps? needs more control like say no password for free / updates and or an pin / password for buying stuff.

I think cable vod systems now have the free stuff not need to use the same buy screen with a price of 0 that PPV VOD gets.

 

Re:why need an password for free apps? needs more

[Anonymous Coward]

Because virus apps are all free. You require a password to request a higher level of thought processing before installing that virus.

Re:why need an password for free apps? needs more

[gnasher719]

why need an password for free apps? needs more control like say no password for free / updates and or an pin / password for buying stuff.

If you didn't need a password for free apps, then anybody with access to the device could download any malicious app as long as it is free.

Re:why need an password for free apps? needs more

[Anonymous Coward]

However, one could have a device password which was purely local --- not authenticated with Apple, and not used to initiate any commercial transactions. Making the sign-on to install free apps identical with the sign-on to authorize purchases (then encouraging/requiring use of this everywhere, so you're constantly at risk of unwanted transactions) is a slimeball move (i.e. business as usual for corporate capitalism).

Re:why need an password for free apps? needs more

[alen]

its like OS X
you need a password to install anything as a form of security

UAC in Windows is annoying but the same thing is OS X is beyond awesome and cool

Re: why need an password for free apps? needs more

[Anonymous Coward]

How would said malicious app penetrate the walled garden Apple has established so helpfully "to protect us" ?

In Capitalist Amerika...

[Anonymous Coward]

Does the government get the refund for things your kids charged to their phone and not the parents.

Yeesh.

Apple is not your child's parent

[jmcbain]

Perhaps you should have applied better parental supervision and not just check up on him after "a couple months later." Apple is not in the business of being your child's parent.

Re:Apple is not your child's parent

[vinn01]

Perhaps you should apply better English supervision if you think that a "free app" should cost money to download - or money to play. I'm on firm ground on thinking that "free" means not just free to download, but free to play.

Do I really need to sit and watch him play "Plants and Zombies?". Is there too much sex or violence? It's normally not conceivable that him playing that game would be costing me money.

Re:Apple is not your child's parent

[theArtificial]

Perhaps you should apply better English supervision if you think that a "free app" should cost money to download - or money to play. I'm on firm ground on thinking that "free" means not just free to download, but free to play.

It is free to play. Another title like this, which is entirely free to play and also offers in app purchases is Candy Crush. I've sunk many hours into this title over the last year. You pay to speed things up, and bonuses. Not all games are like this, and it isn't a requirement to play. Keep an eye out for the "Offers In-App Purchases" which appears below the app title in the store. Your argument is strikingly similar to those who misunderstand what free software is in the OSS sense.

Do I really need to sit and watch him play "Plants and Zombies?". Is there too much sex or violence? It's normally not conceivable that him playing that game would be costing me money.

No, you don't need to sit and watch him play, but if you did this whole situation would've been avoided. I'd use this as a teachable moment for both of you. I think a far more interesting topic to investigate would be how did this business model come about?

Isn't it outrageous that people want to make money, especially in an ecosystem that has annual costs for a developer to participate in? Do you see the humor in someone plunking down money for an Apple device and complaining about costs? It's pretty rich! ;)

Re:Apple is not your child's parent

[Lord Lemur]

Similar to how those with out kids will begrudge helicopter parents, some portion are astonished that parents do not have 24/7 indepth surveillance of everything their kids do. Parents have to depend on kids to self sooth and self entertain some art of their day. When many of us were kids we prefered computers, but they didn't have a dump money valve attached. I know my parents never read the EULA. It is really rational to expect non-technical parents to be infront of deceptive kid targeted ads hiding in Hello Kitty vs. SpongeBob Saga?

Re:Apple is not your child's parent

[vinn01]

> Your argument is strikingly similar to those who misunderstand what free software is in the OSS sense.

Free apps share nothing with "free as in speech" OSS. Don't even try.

The business model would have never passed "compliance" at any reputable software company. The fact that the FTC is forcing refunds verifies this fact.

It has been a teachable experience. My son is much more attuned to scams.

Re:Apple is not your child's parent

[serialband]

No, you don't need to sit and watch him play, but if you did this whole situation would've been avoided. I'd use this as a teachable moment for both of you. I think a far more interesting topic to investigate would be how did this business model come about?

It sounds like you're advocating helicopter parenting to handle a deceptive business practice that the FCC has fined Apple for doing. Let's watch your kid every waking hour and every waking minute of every single day. [sarcasm]They're expected to magically become an adult once they've turned 18. [/sarcasm]

On the other hand, I also don't understand why it's imperative that parents give their children iPhones/iPads/(other expensive electronic crap). Kids don't need them to grow/learn/socialize. Lazy parenting indeed.

Re:Apple is not your child's parent

[theArtificial]

It sounds like you're advocating helicopter parenting to handle a deceptive business practice that the FCC has fined Apple for doing.

Is it really that difficult when below an app it says "Offers In App Purchases". The words Purchase and Buy, when paired with dollar signs have pretty clear meanings. Then the whole entering your Apple ID to confirm the transaction is a hint and a half. People like this are the reason why we have as many ridiculous warnings as we do. Personal responsibility. It doesn't require 24/7 supervision, how about a quick play through? Sounds like this guy didn't even do that with his kid...

Lets make a list!

[zacherynuk]

Give me examples of good in app purchases!
I'll start with:
Maps for air, sea and land navigation

Re:Lets make a list!

[microcars]

extra lives for Candy Crush
chocolate balls for Candy Crush
Coconut things for Candy Crush
anything and everything else for Candy Crush

/ as long as someone else is paying for them, all these are good in app purchases!

Apple CEO Tim Cook quoted as asking:

[Sir Realist]

"Have you got change for $100 mil? I don't really carry small change."

also some games have in game money

[Joe_Dragon]

also some games have in game money and other stuff that can mask the fact that it's costs real money.

also if you played older games some had unlimited funds / auto loans / I think they may of been a few with a not so hidden cheat to get more as well.

Re:also some games have in game money

[Anonymous Coward]

The In-App Purchase confirmation always tells you you're spending real money.

Re:also some games have in game money

[AK Marc]

Yes, and the kid that bought the in-app purchase without realizing it cost real money would do what? Hand the game back to daddy? Or click "yes" to any question asked to be able to play the game. I know my kids clicked yes on everything. The 7 year old just finally got to the point of understanding.

Re:also some games have in game money

[sjames]

And if humans were born literate and understanding how money works, that would be fine.

you can win free games on pinball not so much

[Joe_Dragon]

you can win free games on pinball not so much on there games there.

Response to all the complaining parents

[jddeluxe]

No one above specifically mentions the actual age of the child, but instead of handing them a mobile device to play Plants vs. Zombies on, hand them (as age appropriate):

- Legos
- A book
- A musical instrument
- A "300 in 1" electronics set
- Whatever the latest cool educational toy is
- Better yet, send them out to the backyard to play so their BMI doesn't doom them before they're teenagers.


This would not be an issue if your idea of "parenting" was to hand your child a device to use in an unsupervised state. That makes a good marketing opportunity which usually gets exploited...

Re:Response to all the complaining parents

[geekoid]

- Legos
it's Lego, not Legos. My kids have thousands, and they know the plural form of Lego is Lego.
-A Book
Yes, they read it on an iPad, or kindle. And they have read hundreds of books.
- A musical instrument
It's hard to make someone practice in any way that won't make them hate it later. However; music instrament are available in my house hold. AS an example to them, I am learning how to play Bass. I use the iPad for sheet music, tabs, and recording.

- A "300 in 1" electronics set
well, we have Arduino's, and basic electronic is mandatory learning in my house. Just enough top see if they are intersted. Build something simple, soldier a little, and know the Basics of Ohm's law. They also use in iPad to get info and learn electronics.

"- Whatever the latest cool educational toy is"
that would be the iPad.

"- Better yet, send them out to the backyard to play so their BMI doesn't doom them before they're teenagers."
Going outside doesn't changes weather or not the kid will have high BMI. Their eating habits do. A child the plays simply eats more.

Also, they play game on the iPad.

The issue here is you. You seem oblivious that for a while there where a loit of apps that disguised in game purchase. I understand Apple may have recently made changes to stop that.

Apple claims to vet all apps, so when an app geared toward 7 year olds is on their store, and that app disguises in app purchase, I ave a hrd time blaming the parents.

Re:Response to all the complaining parents

[Anonymous Coward]

What is it with the moral superiority police attitude? Do you feel smarter? Better? What makes your opinion and interpretation more valid than the actual situation at hand?

Wave your magic wand around and wish the world was the way you want all you choose. Reality is this shit was going on and people pushed back. That's exactly how things should work in a society.

You're very welcome to be an uptight wonk and take things ever so seriously in your own life. But do stuff the preachy bullshit straight up your arse.

Re:Response to all the complaining parents

[david_thornley]

Fortunately, I always carried about a thousand Lego pieces, books, musical instruments, electronics kits, educational toys, and a back yard in my shirt pocket. Parenting is frequently about dealing with unexpected situations right then, sometimes with little time to consider options. People who try to scam money out of that situation are scum.

Re:Response to all the complaining parents

[Plumpaquatsch]

Pardon the question: is your beef with playing games, or just with not playing them on the device you played games on when you were a kid, like god intended them to be played?

I hate to post 84th.

[rmdingler]

My unlucky number.

I remember switching cellphone carriers multiple times after this or that premium service was exploited by one of the kids' failure to understand the minutes limit, the texting limit, or the data limit. At the time, I remember thinking I would keep looking until I found an honest cell carrier.

Poor Diogenes.

15 minute authorization window closed long ago ...

[perpenso]

Game purchase authorized. What Apple didn't in general tell people is that that authorization would last past the initial purpose, unless the user dug deep in Settings to turn that feature off.

I believe this was fixed long ago in an iOS update. The app authorization no longer works for in-app authorization. Once in the app a second authorization is always needed for an in-app purchase. This second authorization for the in-app purchase does seem to create a window of approval for subsequent in-app purchases, however the original app purchase no longer creates such a window. In any case the parent is aware that the app has in-app purchases.

Apple App Store app does ALL in-app purchases ...

[perpenso]

He had no idea that he was purchasing anything. He showed me. The game would ask if the player wanted something (more time, more bullets, more lives, etc.) and ask for the AppleID password. It was entirely unclear that he was spending real money. No sales receipt was ever generated.

The game NEVER asks for the Apple ID or password(*). The purchase confirmation is ALWAYS done by the built-in Apple App Store app.

Apps display an offer but they have to turn over the purchase to the Apple App Store app once the user indicates that they want to buy. Then the App Store app independently asks for confirmation and shows the item being purchased and its price.

(*) Well unless its malware that got past Apple's review process. In-app purchases are submitted and reviews just like app.

Game can not hide actual purchase price ...

[perpenso]

Like a game where you op[en chests, but every once in a while one of the chest would cost money and the user would get a message like 'The will cost 399 star points, do you want it?" Bang, yo are dinged for 3.99 in an email 2 days later.

No, the game can only offer you the purchase. For the actual sale to take place the game has to create a purchase request and turn this request over to the built-in Apple App Store app. The Apple App Store app will then independently confirm the purchase showing you the item and the price in your local currency. Only the Apple App Store app can make a purchase. The game can not hide the fact that an actual purchase is going to take place.

Re:Game can not hide actual purchase price ...

[Firethorn]

The game can not hide the fact that an actual purchase is going to take place.

1. I'm an android user, not a Apple user.
2. Multiple people have given stories like this, and I've used a few 'kid' games as relaxing entertainment that pulled stuff like geekoid mentioned, and while as a scam-aware adult I recognize the ploys, I don't expect everybody to.
3. They try to make this as transparant as possible, such as the 'auto-purchasing' of 'X points' via real money if you don't have enough. It might no longer be possible to do this without the app store independently confirming every purchase, but in the old days?
4. I've seen enough scummy 'You have to click this little box 3 pages down to NOT install this adware along with the program I want', then it asks you twice to confirm that you DON'T want to install it, and it's like a logic game with the phrasing 'Are you sure you don't want to install X with BLAH BLAH BLAH BENEFITS' along with 'We'd really like to install X for you, can we?'.

Re:Game can not hide actual purchase price ...

[perpenso]

3. They try to make this as transparant as possible, such as the 'auto-purchasing' of 'X points' via real money if you don't have enough. It might no longer be possible to do this without the app store independently confirming every purchase, but in the old days?

I am an app developer. I implemented in-app purchases soon after they were added to iOS.

The app only controls the offering of the in-app purchase. The user interface and code for this offer is implemented by the app, it could conceivable present things in a confusing way. However it can't go too far in doing so since in-app purchases have to be submitted and reviewed by Apple before they go live. If the user interface was too deceptive presumably it would not pass review.

All an app can do is create a purchase request and submit this request to the iOS In-App Purchase API. iOS will then invoke Apple App Store app code to authenticate and communicate with the iTunes App Store. The user interface and code is all Apple's, nothing from the app. The app is eventually notified if the purchase request was completed or not.

Re:Game can not hide actual purchase price ...

[Plumpaquatsch]

The game can not hide the fact that an actual purchase is going to take place.

1. I'm an android user, not a Apple user. 2. Multiple people have given stories like this, and I've used a few 'kid' games as relaxing entertainment that pulled stuff like geekoid mentioned, and while as a scam-aware adult I recognize the ploys, I don't expect everybody to.

Wait, you've seen games like this on Android and thus stories about it being true on iOS must be true?

Re:Game can not hide actual purchase price ...

[Firethorn]

Wait, you've seen games like this on Android and thus stories about it being true on iOS must be true?

Not saying it's true, saying I believe others who've stated it. The games I was thinking of were obviously ported to both systems, so I figure the scummy things they were doing on Android were also present on IOS. While I figure that IOS cleaned it up on a regular basis, I'm also aware that scummy app developers, like scummy lawyers and telephone 900 numbers(back in the day) will skirt the rules any way they can.

Re:Game can not hide actual purchase price ...

[Plumpaquatsch]

Wait, you've seen games like this on Android and thus stories about it being true on iOS must be true?

Not saying it's true, saying I believe others who've stated it.

Oh, so you also believe the Moon landing was a hoax.

Re:Game can not hide actual purchase price ...

[Firethorn]

Nope, because I view the credibility of those that say the landing was a hoax as lower than the credibility of those that say it actually happened.

Thus how it goes in this thread - I view the credibility of those that say they've seen it happen higher than those that say it's impossible, especially when it's pointed out that Apple has changed how the market operates several times. In addition, I have *vast* faith in how scummy scummy app developers can be.

Re:Game can not hide actual purchase price ...

[Plumpaquatsch]

Nope, because I view the credibility of those that say the landing was a hoax as lower than the credibility of those that say it actually happened.

Considering the things they said in this thread, I don't. But feel free to believe obvious liars.

Dev asking question - fully paid and lite version?

[perpenso]

Give me examples of good in app purchases!

I have a calculator app that offers scientific, statistics, business, hex and bill/tip functionality in a single app, Perpenso Calc. There are two versions. A fully paid version and an upgradable lite version.

The fully paid version includes everything, there are no in-app purchases and there are no ads. It is offered at a bundled price point so that it is less expensive to purchase the fully paid version than to buy all the in-app purchases separately.

The upgradable lite version only includes the scientific functionality. However this scientific mode does include fractions, complex numbers and other things not found in the built-in calculator. Statistics, business, hex and bill/tip functionality are each available through separate in-app purchases. You may tailor the app's functionality to your specific needs. Again, note that at some point it may be cheaper to purchase the fully paid app given its bundled pricing.
This lite version also displays ads. There is an upgrade to full mode via an in-app purchase that removes ads, enable RPN entry and some other features.

Personally I like this two app strategy. A fully paid app at a bundled price point and an upgradable lite app. The upgradable lite app's built-in scientific mode serving as a trial for those considering the fully paid app if they are unsure.

I plan on continuing to use the two app strategy in the future. I would be very eager to hear any criticisms of this approach or any alternatives?

1-900-PSYCHIC $2.99/Minute

[IgnorantMotherFucker]

Back in the day I became quite good friends with a homeless mentally ill woman. She was out of her damn tree, but really quite pleasant, friendly and good-looking. She'd been sleeping on my couch for a month when my housemate received his phone bill. While he and I were out of the house, she had rung up $7,000.00 in 900 and 976 psychic hotlines. I was eventually able to convince Pacific Bell to reverse ALL of the charges, but my housemate was hopping mad.

Well...

[Anonymous Coward]

I just shit my pants. I'm going to blow up the moon.

You know you read too much crypto-currencies news

[ArcadeMan]

You know you read too much crypto-currencies news when you read the title as "Apple Will Refund $32.5M To Settle In-App Purchase Complaints With FeatherCoin".

How does Google Play handle this?

[MobyDisk]

With Google Play, if you enter your password for a Play Store purchase, does that authorize in-app purchases too?

Re:Dev asking question - fully paid and lite versi

[Anonymous Coward]

Cool idea, thanks for sharing.

Payback

[Anonymous Coward]

If you were affected and upset by this, you can now update your Apple account to remove your payment method.

Apple is benefitting now from the network effect of so many people having already provided them their payment information.

Use the googles

[Anonymous Coward]

I created an "appleID" a week ago, it absolutely refused to move forward until i entered a VALID credit card.
I tried to enter one and it was unhappy as it was a US card and said i was in canada at the time. Clicking the small "change this location" allowed me to proceed.

Granted this was on "Mavericks" and all i wanted was the updates so unsure about the credit card requirement.

Google "itunes account no credit card"

You're welcome.

idiot?

[internerdj]

My parents trusting me with far more expensive computers as a toddler played a key role in my love of technology and eventual career. A few hundred bucks today is going to be much cheaper than having to keep a lib-arts major in my basement till he's in his mid 30s.

How it will be the refund

[Anonymous Coward]

I do not know how to ask for the reimburse

This just in

[Plumpaquatsch]

http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/news/2014/01/google-play-store-lets-your-kid-spend-like-a-drunken-sailor/index.htm

Once you approve a purchase, a child can shop unsupervised for 30 minutes—and ring up big charges