Slashdot Mirror


Chinese Moon Rover Says an Early Goodnight

hackingbear writes "The Chinese moon rover, Jade Rabbit, encountered an abnormality in its control mechanism before its planned sleep during the 14-day-long lunar night. In the form of a diary, the Jade Rabbit said, "The shi-fu ('kung-fu masters,' meaning the scientists and engineers) are working around the clock trying to fix the problem and their eyes look like a rabbit's (red due to fatigue), but I may not be able to survive over this lunar night." (translated, original in Chinese.) The rover landed on the moon on Dec 14 and was designed to operate for three months."

69 of 284 comments (clear)

  1. Meanwhile, back in America by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Ours just keep going and going... like the Energizer bunny.

    1. Re:Meanwhile, back in America by jfdavis668 · · Score: 5, Informative

      Mars doesn't have 2 week long nights without an atmosphere. The Mars rovers get a nice helping of solar power each 24 hr period. If there is a software glitch, you can just fix it the next day. That doesn't work on the Moon.

    2. Re:Meanwhile, back in America by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 5, Insightful

      For perspective's sake, Spirit got stuck in a reboot loop on January 21, 2004, and was down until February 6th when they finished debugging what turned out to be a problem with the flash filesystem.

      If their fault turns out to be more serious, or their system lacks the failsafe systems that would allow recovery from a modestly serious bug, then some snarking may be in order; but they are still within the 'scrambling for a fix' window.

    3. Re:Meanwhile, back in America by Megane · · Score: 3, Informative

      If I read TFS right, this rover failed before even reaching the first night. So it's had 7/24 sunlight since landing.

      --
      #naabhaprzrag, #sverubfr-000, #agi-fcbafberq, negvpyr[pynff*=' negvpyr-ary-'] { qvfcynl: abar !vzcbegnag; }
    4. Re:Meanwhile, back in America by HouseOfMisterE · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Ours just keep going and going... like the Energizer bunny.

      Hopefully, that little guy will get to come home one day.

    5. Re:Meanwhile, back in America by jfdavis668 · · Score: 2

      And, on Mars, you would fix it the next day. On the Moon the rover would be frozen solid by then.

    6. Re:Meanwhile, back in America by sconeu · · Score: 4

      For some reason, that XKCD always makes me sad.

      --
      General Relativity: Space-time tells matter where to go; Matter tells space-time what shape to be.
    7. Re:Meanwhile, back in America by ralphsiegler · · Score: 3, Informative

      Mar's "atmosphere" has about a half a percent of the pressure of Earth's. The rovers do NOT get a nice helping of solar power while they hibernate for five months of martian winter.

    8. Re:Meanwhile, back in America by Artifakt · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Have too! Several in fact. The first two were named Neil and Buzz. Autonomous as all hell...

      --
      Who is John Cabal?
    9. Re:Meanwhile, back in America by cyfer2000 · · Score: 2

      I heard from unconfirmed source that the problem was mechanical. The solar panels of the "Jade Rabbit" can fold and can act as covers to prevent heat from escaping. One of the solar panels failed to fold.

      --
      There is a spark in every single flame bait point.
    10. Re:Meanwhile, back in America by Tablizer · · Score: 5, Funny

      Spirit got stuck in a reboot loop on January 21, 2004, and was down until February 6th.....problem with the flash filesystem

      From that came one of the greatest Biblical space jokes ever: "The Spirit is willing but the flash it weak".

    11. Re:Meanwhile, back in America by hey! · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Sure... except we had our shares of total or partial failures in our unmanned space program too. The first *six* lunar probes in the 1960's Ranger program failed. We lost Mariners 3 and 8 and Mars Observer. Oh, and we cocked up Hubble's primary mirror because somebody installed a test jig backward, which shows how big missions depend on countless small things to go right.

      Anyhow it's too early to count Jade Rabbit out. Glitches are a fairly regular feature of space missions, if you follow them. It's still quite possible they'll fiddle the thing back into operation.

      --
      Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
    12. Re:Meanwhile, back in America by Ford+Prefect · · Score: 3, Interesting

      It's entering its second lunar night - it landed on the Moon on December 14th.

      --
      Tedious Bloggy Stuff - hooray?
    13. Re:Meanwhile, back in America by dryeo · · Score: 4, Informative

      TFS said it landed on Dec 14th. Assuming it landed at dawn, sunset would have been about the 28th and the sun would have returned about the 11th with its second night starting about the 24th. Since this is the 25th, my numbers are probably slightly off but either way this has to be the second night and it did survive the first night. Not bad for a first attempt, took a few tries for the Americans and Soviets to successfully soft land on the Moon.

      --
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverted_totalitarianism
    14. Re:Meanwhile, back in America by Ford+Prefect · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Do we have any Mars rovers close enough to the poles to not get sunlight in winter?

      The non-roving Phoenix Mars probe landed sufficiently far north that reduced sunlight due to an approaching winter caused its (expected) failure. It most likely got buried by carbon dioxide ice later on anyway - orbital photos showed its solar panels got crushed...

      For keeping space probes warm, radioisotope heater units are pretty common. Apparently the Chinese Moon rover has them - but it sounds like it hasn't successfully closed itself up in order to keep heat inside.

      --
      Tedious Bloggy Stuff - hooray?
    15. Re:Meanwhile, back in America by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 4, Informative

      A fair few spacecraft are nuclear powered... Spirit and Opportunity were solar; but Curiosity is rocking an MMRTG around the Martian surface as we speak.

      I don't know why the Chinese decided to go solar, possibly weight, possibly difficulty in sourcing RTG fuel; but certainly neither the US nor the Russians have been squeamish about nuclear power in space when the mission called for it.

    16. Re:Meanwhile, back in America by Maritz · · Score: 4, Funny

      Spirit got stuck in a reboot loop on January 21, 2004, and was down until February 6th.....problem with the flash filesystem

      From that came one of the greatest Biblical space jokes ever: "The Spirit is willing but the flash it weak".

      Must be really something to fight its way to the upper echelons of great bible space jokes.

      --
      I do not want your cheap brainburning drugs. They are useless for work. And I am a working man today.
    17. Re:Meanwhile, back in America by skovnymfe · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Isn't that pretty much any developers dream?

    18. Re:Meanwhile, back in America by Joce640k · · Score: 4, Funny

      Damn those Pesky Facts!

      --
      No sig today...
    19. Re:Meanwhile, back in America by Grishnakh · · Score: 2

      The first *six* lunar probes in the 1960's Ranger program failed. We lost Mariners 3 and 8 and Mars Observer.

      I don't think this is quite fair. Technology in the 1960s was downright primitive; that was a time when computers took up whole rooms, and car engines had their fuel metered by Rube Goldbergesque all-mechanical contraptions rather than electronic control systems. Space exploration was brand-new. It's not too surprising that a bunch of late 50s/early 60s-tech space probes crapped out; it was amazing if they worked at all.

      Anyone launching probes these days has access to far more scientific knowledge and engineering expertise and technology. Anyone these days can buy an Arduino at Radio Shack and put it to use fairly quickly doing things that would have required a huge engineering team and lots of expensive hardware (taking up a lot more space) back in 1960. You can't really compare the two.

    20. Re:Meanwhile, back in America by geekoid · · Score: 2

      I'm not an exert on Chinese moon probes, but I thing it was solid when it left.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    21. Re:Meanwhile, back in America by ultranova · · Score: 2

      On the Moon the rover would be frozen solid by then.

      So? What's going to get damaged, exactly speaking?

      --

      Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.

  2. Made in China by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Funny

    They just don't make rovers like they use to

    1. Re:Made in China by The+Grim+Reefer · · Score: 2

      Made in China, means that it will fail prematurely, if not, it will explode, poison or kill someone in the process.

      If it manages to poison or kill someone from the moon, I'll be impressed.

      Anyone know how to say "I surrender" in Mandarin?

  3. Good luck by oldhack · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I don't know. Something like this supersede geopolitics, nationalism, etc., at least for now.

    Good luck, Chinese comrades.

    --
    Fuck systemd. Fuck Redhat. Fuck Soylent, too. Wait, scratch the last one.
    1. Re:Good luck by tippe · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I think I agree with this. If the big picture is having humans become space faring (in a meaningful way; not just doing a handfull of short visits to a nearby lifeless rock), then having the Chinese be successful at their space endeavours should be as important to us as it is to them. In the big picture, we are all human, and if the Chinese are successful of conquering space (in a way that the US, Russia, Europe, etc., haven't been able to do), then we all win. Also, if they fail, then so too do we.

      Gook luck, Chinese comrades indeed.

  4. Enought with the nationalist crap by Art+Challenor · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The Jade Rabbit is an awesome piece of scientific equipment, and it's on the moon. Let's hope if makes it through the night and continues to send data that will benefit all of humanity.

    1. Re:Enought with the nationalist crap by CrankyFool · · Score: 5, Informative

      Just as an FYI because you may appreciate knowing, it's actually "hear hear." See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H...

    2. Re:Enought with the nationalist crap by tippe · · Score: 3, Funny

      Maybe we should just use "hear here", just to cover all of our bases. That's what I do, anyway.

    3. Re:Enought with the nationalist crap by Rick+Zeman · · Score: 5, Funny

      Maybe we should just use "hear here", just to cover all of our bases.

      Their, there, now.

    4. Re:Enought with the nationalist crap by ihtoit · · Score: 5, Informative

      it was a visual inspection, in situ, of Lunar regolith that added weight to the theory of Lunar origin being a result of an impact event on Earth.

      How does this benefit all of humanity? Well, it adds credibility to the many and repeated proposals to exploit the Lunar surface for mineral resources which are demonstrably similar to the proportions found here on Earth, with obvious exceptions being fossil fuels. There is a wealth undreamed of, of such elements as gold, silver, uranium, thorium, lithium, platinum, silicon, lead, even the much lighter and exotic elements such as helium-3 (which alone occurs in quantities enough to solve the energy demand until the sun dies), just waiting for Humanity to quit with the fighting over specific claims over resources on this planet. When (if) that ever comes to pass, then we will be one step closer to expanding our influence for good or bad across the rest of the Solar system.

      --
      Political debates have me rolling my eyes so much I think I got optical whiplash. I should sue. - Foamy The Squirrel
    5. Re:Enought with the nationalist crap by 93+Escort+Wagon · · Score: 2

      What could Jade Rabbit teach us that wasn't already learned by Kim Jung Il during his trip to the moon?

      --
      #DeleteChrome
    6. Re:Enought with the nationalist crap by ElectricTurtle · · Score: 3, Insightful

      What do you even know about China? Did you know that it was home to the largest and most advanced city humanity would ever see until 19th century London?

      --
      I support the Slashcott and will not be reading or commenting from 2/10/14 to 2/17/14. Beta is steaming pile of dog shit
    7. Re:Enought with the nationalist crap by rvw · · Score: 2

      What could Jade Rabbit teach us that wasn't already learned by Kim Jung Il during his trip to the moon?

      How we can keep him there next time!

  5. I do hope they resolve it by msobkow · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I do hope they resolve the problem and keep going. It would be such an embarassment to China to have it fail on it's first night out.

    You can make all the jokes you want about "Cheap Chinese Crap" you want, but you know as well as I do that when it comes to stuff that isn't intended for the dollar store sale bins, China can make as good a piece of hardware as anyone else. They wouldn't have made it to the moon in the first place if their rocket had been built with toy-maker electronics instead of mil-spec.

    --
    I do not fail; I succeed at finding out what does not work.
    1. Re:I do hope they resolve it by Rick+Zeman · · Score: 2

      I do hope they resolve the problem and keep going. It would be such an embarassment to China to have it fail on it's first night out.

      You can make all the jokes you want about "Cheap Chinese Crap" you want, but you know as well as I do that when it comes to stuff that isn't intended for the dollar store sale bins, China can make as good a piece of hardware as anyone else. They wouldn't have made it to the moon in the first place if their rocket had been built with toy-maker electronics instead of mil-spec.

      Or if they hadn't raided the US aerospace industry with APTs.

    2. Re:I do hope they resolve it by The+Grim+Reefer · · Score: 2

      Except they get their tech from the Russians (while we still are scrounging around with the stuff we stole from the Germans after WWII).

      Uh huh. And just where do you think the Russians got their tech from?

  6. Shi-fu doesn't equal 'Kung-Fu Master' by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

    Shi-fu/Sifu is not a term specific to a 'kung-fu master'. It is refers to someone who is skilled in a profession or of high experience. Likewise, in Japanese the term 'sensi' doesn't equate to a 'karate master', it too is used to refer to someone skilled or experienced, such as a doctor, teacher, or even mentor.

  7. Only one page of comments by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting

    and already this USA #1-bullshit. Your country is the biggest melting pot of foreign scientists and researchers in the world, and there is nothing made in the USA today which does not build upon and directly involve talent from all over the world. You are not entitled.

    The Chinese have made the whole world proud with this achievement, and you should not let your envy and superiority complex get the better of you.

    1. Re:Only one page of comments by DahGhostfacedFiddlah · · Score: 5, Interesting

      This is a really weird feeling. I'm 90% sure you're a Chinese propagandist, but I 100% agree with your words.

    2. Re:Only one page of comments by ElectricTurtle · · Score: 4, Informative

      Well, let's see, they invented movable type printing, a calendar that was as accurate as the Gregorian but developed hundreds of years earlier, percussive cap drilling that was capable of the deepest wells in the early 19th century, paper currency, watertight compartments partitioning ships, dental fillings, dominoes, clockwork escapements, forensic entomology, multi-stage rocketry, pontoon bridges, toilet paper, electronic cigarettes, Non-invasive prenatal diagnostic testing for Down's Syndrome, Synthesis of crystalline bovine insulin, and I know it's cliche, but since you arbitrarily set the period at 1500 years I have to include gunpowder.

      --
      I support the Slashcott and will not be reading or commenting from 2/10/14 to 2/17/14. Beta is steaming pile of dog shit
    3. Re:Only one page of comments by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

      Yes, but other than movable type printing, a calendar that was as accurate as the Gregorian but developed hundreds of years earlier, percussive cap drilling that was capable of the deepest wells in the early 19th century, paper currency, watertight compartments partitioning ships, dental fillings, dominoes, clockwork escapements, forensic entomology, multi-stage rocketry, pontoon bridges, toilet paper, electronic cigarettes, non-invasive prenatal diagnostic testing for Down's Syndrome, synthesis of crystalline bovine insulin, and gunpowder what have the Chinese ever done for us?

  8. Re:(insert bad lip sync here) by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 4, Informative

    Rover talk like Kung-Fu Panda's dad

    Only because of the bad translation. For instance, although "shi fu" can mean "kung fu master", it can also mean any master or expert, and that is clearly what it means in this context. Note to Slashdot editors: Next time, instead of using cut-and-paste from Google translate, find someone that actually understands the language.

  9. Good Luck by SuperKendall · · Score: 4, Insightful

    With the recent successes of the Mars rovers it's hard to remember that conditions in space are a super difficult thing to deal with. It's a huge feat all by itself to land on the moon with a functioning rover at all, as China did... so if this rover falters hopefully they'll learn from it and build another.

    Better still it wakes up again and keeps going for them.

    Good Luck China!

    --
    "There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
  10. 3 month warranty! by assemblerex · · Score: 3, Funny

    Limited warranty, 90 days.

    1. Re:3 month warranty! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

      Yea, just return it in original packaging for a full replacement.

  11. Brief translation from Chinese by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

    Mars doesn't have 2 week long nights without an atmosphere. The Mars rovers get a nice helping of solar power each 24 hr period. If there is a software glitch, you can just fix it the next day. That doesn't work on the Moon.

    Greetings, everyone ! Today is the 42th earth day since I've arrived on the moon. I have several good news and one bad news. Which one do you like to hear first ?

    The first good news is that after the 42 days of endeavor I've travelled more than 100 meters. the scientific equipment that I've brought with me - the radar, the panaromic camera, the x-ray scanner, the infra-red scanner, and so on, - have gathered a lot of useful data.

    The second good news is that at dawn time 2 days ago I communicated directly with Ms. Chang'e 3, who is some 20 meters away from me, using the UHF antenna for the first time, without the aid of the "Shi Fu". Although Ms. Chang'e 3 couldn't reply to my message, but I know she would be extremely happy to receive my "love letter". As this was a private message between me and Ms. Chang'e 3, hope that you guys can give us some privacy ...

    The third good news is Ms. Chang'e 3 already went to bed early morning yesterday, preparing for the arrival of 2nd lunar night.

    Now, the bad news.

    I should have gone to bed this morning, but before I went to bed, the "Shi Fu" discovered some abnormalies within my control mechanism, resulting in part of my body isn't responding to command. Right now the "Shi Fu" are cracking their heads to solve this problem, even to the stage of forgoing their beauty nap. Rumor has it that their eyes look more and more like the ones on rabbits.

    Even though with the intervention of the "Shi Fu", I understand that there is a distinct possibility that I may not survive this lunar night....
     
    ....

    Good night, Earth ! Good night, Earthlings !!

    1. Re:Brief translation from Chinese by LifesABeach · · Score: 4, Funny

      So, when is the next China mission to the Moon?

      I guess cheap knock offs don't work well on the moon either.

    2. Re:Brief translation from Chinese by petermgreen · · Score: 2

      Is it normal in china to write news about a rover as if the rover was writing it?

      --
      note: i'm known as plugwash most places but i screwd up registering that here somehow in the past and now can't register
    3. Re:Brief translation from Chinese by ElectricTurtle · · Score: 3, Informative

      It's not just China, East Asia as whole loves to anthropomorphosize things. Jesus... have you seen all the x-tans that come out of Japan?

      --
      I support the Slashcott and will not be reading or commenting from 2/10/14 to 2/17/14. Beta is steaming pile of dog shit
    4. Re:Brief translation from Chinese by taiwanjohn · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Since this is their first lunar rover, there's no precedent either way. However it is normal for Chinese to speak of themselves in 3rd-pers in some situations. This is due to their emphasis on titles instead of names. For example, a parent might say, "Daddy wants you to brush your teeth," instead of "I want you to..." This general pattern is used whenever there is a title of some sort, such as boss, uncle, doctor, mayor, etc..

      That said, I have no idea whether the GP's translation is authentic. I haven't been following this news in the Chinese press. It's a bit over the top, but I wouldn't put it past them, especially as a tactic to engage children with STEM education. It strikes me as the sort of thing Western broadcasters do at Christmas, showing "Santa's sleigh" on the weather radar.

      --
      XML is like violence. If it doesn't solve your problem, you're not using enough of it. --AC
    5. Re:Brief translation from Chinese by Ford+Prefect · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Is it normal in china to write news about a rover as if the rover was writing it?

      No idea, but probes from other places have a peculiar tendency to write about themselves too.

      --
      Tedious Bloggy Stuff - hooray?
    6. Re:Brief translation from Chinese by RabidReindeer · · Score: 2

      Japanese tech is the high-priced stuff these days.

      Because it kicks butt?

      Because they don't do cheap junk anymore. That's what China is for, these days.

    7. Re:Brief translation from Chinese by crakbone · · Score: 2

      Evidently you don't know what the Chinese are going to do to the Quality Control Engineer for the project.

  12. It''s a shame by umask077 · · Score: 2

    Those kids that they had build that will be so disappointed. Might have to go back to building iphones.

    --
    --- Always remember. 99.36% of all statistics are inaccurate.
  13. Re: Figures by Rick+Zeman · · Score: 3, Funny

    I'm curious what made in USA piece of electronics you're using to write that comment ...

    How about a Lenovo on its 3rd motherboard?

  14. Re:Might do China good. by amiga3D · · Score: 2

    China's regime doesn't scare me although I feel sad for those who suffer under it. The bad direction my own government is headed in worries me far more. I'm not under China's domain but the idiots in D.C. who are dismantling the Constitution because they're worried about some terrorists are a threat to my future freedom. While it's hardly at Tiananmen Square leve,l I resent every step in that direction. Trading liberty for security is a shitty bargain in my view.

  15. Re:USA Media sucks by clovis · · Score: 3, Informative

    What newspaper do you read?

    If by "US media", you are talking only about television, then I have to agree.
    The only time I watch news on TV is when I'm on the treadmill at the gym. I assure you that CNN had noted the Jade Rabbit mission before the launch, during the launch, and after the landing. Nothing in-depth, but what can you say about the mission anyway?

    Here's some links (below) from the Atlanta Journal. I think they did a decent job of reporting on it. It's similar to the coverage in most mainstream newspapers.
    http://www.accessatlanta.com/v...
    http://www.ajc.com/videos/news...
    http://www.ajc.com/ap/ap/inter...
    http://www.ajc.com/ap/ap/top-n...
    http://www.ajc.com/ap/ap/top-n...
    http://www.accessatlanta.com/v...
    http://www.accessatlanta.com/v...
    http://www.ajc.com/videos/news...

  16. Re:(insert bad lip sync here) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

    Rover talk like Kung-Fu Panda's dad

    Only because of the bad translation. For instance, although "shi fu" can mean "kung fu master", it can also mean any master or expert, and that is clearly what it means in this context. Note to Slashdot editors: Next time, instead of using cut-and-paste from Google translate, find someone that actually understands the language.

    Remember all the jokes about the silly English translations you see when traveling in China? Well, that's because when China was poor, they have to do the translation to satisfy English visitors. So it was *always* some Chinese's fault when Google Translate gave something stupid.

    Now that China got richer, well, we started to see cases when the table was turned, we see translation errors just as silly. Only now, in these cases, you cannot point at some Chinese and laugh at how stupid they were.

    And, yes, "shi fu" is a general term of "master" of any kind. English natives like Americans usually take it to mean "kung fu master" because that's the only kind of master from China that they can see on TV shows and movies. "Shi fu" is commonly used as a respectful title for referring and addressing to technical workers, including plumbers, electrician, drivers, and of course, programmers and other high-tech workers. Such as asking a plumber: "Shi fu, can this be fixed? how much would this cost?" Nobody in China would automatically take "Shi fu" to mean "Kung fu master", unless you are already in a kung fu school.

  17. Re:(insert bad lip sync here) by The+Grim+Reefer · · Score: 2

    And, yes, "shi fu" is a general term of "master" of any kind. English natives like Americans usually take it to mean "kung fu master"

    Actually most Americans think "shi fu" is a gray coated Red Panda. That also happens to be a Kung Fu master.

  18. I don't because he's a fucking moron by Sycraft-fu · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I mean let's see what's in the thread right now: An energizer bunny joke about the US mars rovers, someone saying good luck to the Chinese and how this transcends politics, someone saying Jade Rabbit is awesome, someone who hopes they resolve the problem, someone correcting the use of shi-fu, and then this.

    So basically, he's making shit up. The higher rated comments are nearly all encouragement, and the one referencing the US rovers is a joke. This moron wants there to be a bunch of US nationalism for him to hate on, but there's not, so he just pretends like there is anyhow. He's making up reasons for US hate/China strong.

    Also there's the stupid crap of trying to make the US look bad because "Your country is the biggest melting pot of foreign scientists and researchers in the world." As though the US is so stupid and has to import foreigners to do any work. No, quite the opposite actually: American universities are still some of the very best research institutions in the world, despite all the cuts and problems, and people come from around the world to work at them and do research. The US is a melting pot precisely because of the excellence of its research institutions, and in allowing people from all over to come, it helps to continue that excellence and enrich the world's knowledge.

    The grandparent is just a jackass. He really wants this to be some kind of China hate thread so he can hate on that to try and deflect things from the rover's problem. Instead it is a thread largely of people saying "Good luck China, we hope you fix the problem and your rover continues to work."

  19. Lasted longer than than appliences I buy nowadays by austinhook · · Score: 2

    Lasted longer than than the US brand name appliances I buy nowadays...

  20. Re:Enough with the ad hominem crap by ihtoit · · Score: 2

    I don't usually respond to ACs, but you take the biscuit of one who completely fucking misses the point of the parent post.

    I didn't mention anything about manifest destiny, you did. What I was alluding to was the fact that the similarities between Lunar samples and Terran samples was essentially the same, implying that they originated from the same place.

    To piss all over your claim, there is no trace of heavy elements in the Sun - the heaviest element so far detected in the solar spectrum has been oxygen, the most abundant non-hydrogen/helium element being carbon. Elements heavier than iron are found nowhere else but supernova remnants and in the rock of nth generation planetary systems. During the accretion process, heavier elements are drawn towards the centre of the system to form rocky planets, lighter elements either into the star itself or to the outer regions forming gas giants and smaller ice bodies. Ergo, the distribution of proportion of elements throughout the Universe is ANYTHING BUT uniform.

    But of course you knew all that, didn't you, because you're a smart fucker, aren't you.

    --
    Political debates have me rolling my eyes so much I think I got optical whiplash. I should sue. - Foamy The Squirrel
  21. Native peoples of the New World rallying together by Derling+Whirvish · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Hmm, we have a sort of precedent for that. Did the native peoples of the New World put aside their petty differences, rally together and be on the same side for once when the Europeans came over or did they split apart, some siding with them, some siding against them, some forming temporary alliances for quick gain, some shifting with the wind depending on which side was winning, fighting each other etc? Same for the native peoples of Africa.

  22. more nukes now by globaljustin · · Score: 4, Interesting

    No new plutonium is allowed to be manufactured

    I hope this ends soon. Robert Oppenheimer and others proposed a central global authority to control the world's plutonium. Since we know we only have so much left, each interested country could take part in a new organization that starts from scratch with no historical precedents hanging over it and use the plutonium only for space exploration.

    Each country could & would want to contribute because everyone wants to get back into space & nuclear power helps alot.

    In general I think nuclear power's time has come. You can list all the dangers but we have the same vulnerability with anything. Just look at the recent rail cars carrying oil products that crashed and burned in Canada almost destroying a whole town & killing 30+ people.

    --
    Thank you Dave Raggett
    1. Re:more nukes now by AmiMoJo · · Score: 2

      The problem is cost. Governments are increasingly unwilling to fund nuclear and it isn't economically viable without heavy subsidy. For example in the UK the government has to provide insurance since no commercial insurer would even consider it, and guarantee very high wholesale prices for the electricity generated.

      There are too many competitive alternatives now. The only reason we are having more nuclear is because it makes friends of the politicians in power richer and helps meet our environmental targets, and because the extremely powerful newspapers hate all the alternatives. Logically it makes little sense.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    2. Re:more nukes now by Code+Yanker · · Score: 4, Interesting

      The problem is cost.

      The problem is IMPOSED cost. We IMPOSE cost on nuclear because, despite it's amazing track record of safety normalized for Terawatt-hours produced, the one accident where fewer than 70 people actually died from the radiation (despite the fact that its primary purpose was for enriching weapons grade nuclear material, not energy and had third-world safety controls) was heavily publicized. 70 people fall of their roofs in different parts of the world for a trickle of solar power and it is as "statistic." 70 people die from radiation for the oceans of energy nuclear has produced, and it is a "disaster."

      in the UK the government has to provide insurance since no commercial insurer would even consider it.

      Insurance companies profit by dispersing the risk of low-frequency-high-cost events over multiple parties. For any given event, the frequency multiplied by the cost of the event must be less than the premium. Nuclear meets this requirement! But there is a second requirement called "ruin capacity" that derives from a statistical nicety in the central limit theorem: The cost of a single event must be much lower than the operating cost of the risk-aggregating party, so that the off-chance of a single event wouldn't put the company at risk of going out of business.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R...

      This is not true for any single insurer in the UK, but it is true for the government. Thus, an insurer could not profit from a nuclear power plant, but the government could.

      There are too many competitive alternatives now.

      There are no alternatives that are as safe and reliable as nuclear power. Fossil fuels? Not nearly as safe as nuclear. Hydro? Not nearly as safe as nuclear. Wind/Solar? Not reliable enough to generate base load electricity without energy storage. Energy storage? Not even close to becoming economically viable yet. Germany is the closest any major power has come to ditching fossil fuels for renewables, with a whopping 25% reduction in fossil fuel dependency.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R...

      But renewables can't produce energy on-demand without expensive energy storage mechanisms. So Germany can't actually CONSUME that energy without the help of rate agreements from their nuclear-producing neighbors like France.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E...

      France, by contrast, ditched fossil fuels for a primarily nuclear-based strategy a long time ago. The result? 90+% reduction in fossil fuel usage.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E...

      By all measures, nuclear is winning.

      because the extremely powerful newspapers hate all the alternatives.

      [Citation needed]

    3. Re:more nukes now by AmiMoJo · · Score: 2

      The problem is IMPOSED cost. We IMPOSE cost on nuclear because, despite it's amazing track record of safety normalized for Terawatt-hours produced

      That's now how insurance works. They look at the potential risk, and as Fukushima demonstrated that potential (in monetary terms) is rather high. Sorry, but if you irradiate someone's property and make it worthless, or destroy their business and livelihood, you have to compensate them. That's not an imposed cost, that's how society works. You can't externalize the cost of an accident by saying "too bad".

      Ruin theory doesn't really apply here. It is based on the potential for a large number of accidents to cause huge financial losses, where as with nuclear a single accident could easily bankrupt even the largest insurers.

      Thus, an insurer could not profit from a nuclear power plant, but the government could.

      Only if the premiums made the energy produced ridiculously expensive. Keep in mind that the UK has already had to guarantee above market rate prices.

      As for all your other stuff about renewables, you make the classic mistake of considering a single type or single generator on its own. Sure, a particular wind farm may not produce the same amount of energy all year round, but over the entire country there is always a base load of wind energy. Storage systems are already viable, such as the 50MW batteries they have deployed in Japan, and are of course improving rapidly. Yes, there are challenges, but we are meeting them and developing a lot of cool new tech along the way, rather than just trying to build the same old stuff we build 40 years ago.

      Germany isn't even half way through it's transitional period yet, and has already made incredible progress. Far beyond what the nay-sayers said was possible when they started. Look at it another way, there is plenty of money being invested in new renewable energy sources, but very little in nuclear. Investors only care about their returns, so that should tell you something.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
  23. Re:The difference by asylumx · · Score: 2

    the Chinese see everything through the eyes of 'how can we exploit this for further gain'

    I know an awful lot of Americans who see everything through those same eyes.