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David Cameron Says Fictional Crime Proves Why Snooper's Charter Is Necessary
An anonymous reader sends this story from TechDirt:
"You may recall the stories from the past couple years about the so-called 'snooper's charter' in the UK — a system to further legalize the government's ability to spy on pretty much all communications. It was setting up basically a total surveillance system, even beyond what we've since learned is already being done today. Thankfully, that plan was killed off by Deputy Prime Minister Nick Clegg. However, Prime Minister David Cameron is back to pushing for the snooper's charter — and his reasoning is as stupid as it is unbelievable. Apparently, he thinks it's necessary because the fictional crime dramas he watches on TV show why it's necessary. Cameron said, 'I love watching, as I probably should stop telling people, crime dramas on the television. There's hardly a crime drama where a crime is solved without using the data of a mobile communications device. What we have to explain to people is that... if we don't modernise the practice and the law, over time we will have the communications data to solve these horrible crimes on a shrinking proportion of the total use of devices and that is a real problem for keeping people safe.'"
Its the same reason that we should be increasing our ability to hunt down hobbits. If they get control of that ring again it could be the end for us all!
have you seen my sig? there are many others like it but none that are the same
By that logic, the best way to prevent 9/11 would have been to cover up the small thermal exhaust port on the World Trade Center that led directly to the main reactor.
If we can't see your mobile data, the terrorists will murder you, and we won't be able to find them.
Techdirt is honest reporting at its finest, rivaling even Slashdot's journalistic integrity. They're both very upfront and clear about their biases.
...his reasoning is as stupid as it is unbelievable.
You do not have a moral or legal right to do absolutely anything you want.
Warp drive. Lawyers with a conscience. Guns which never need reloading. And magic infinite photo enhancement. When do we get those, huh?
Of course, the stories I'm following are the ones that picture totalitarian governments. We should therefore pass laws barring any government agency (there than very local law enforcement) from having any powers.
âoeAny society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both.
We already know that things which happen in soap operas come to pass, in real life - as programmes like those set the agenda for what "ordinary people" assume is socially acceptable: both for their own behaviour and that of others. Those programmes (and cop shows, too) also tell people what is an acceptable reaction to given situations.
Some (non-viewers) might say that these are fictional drama and therefore should be treated as non-real and non-realistic, but just check out TV forums and see how many posters refer to actors by their characters' names. For a lot of people, TV is real-life: just as Google IS the internet as far asa they're concerned.
politicians are like babies' nappies: they should both be changed regularly and for the same reasons
Well, at least he admits his madness. His reality is fantasy.
"Reality" is the only word in the language that should always be used in quotes.
Brave Sir Robin ran away. ("No!") Bravely ran away away. ("I didn't!")
Just a different path. Politics / democracy today is a one way road running along two footpaths all going the same direction.
The biggest fools are the votes who are suckers and fall for the biggest con in the book.
The biggest fools in the world are the yanks, they are, and I don't like to admit it, the worlds last hope for a free world, they have the guns, the constitution, but, unfortunately for the rest of the world, theyre too fat and dumb to understand it. They keep saying... "One more straw and we call to arms!"... yah.. .well, so far we have had thousands of final straws and yet we wait on the call to arms.
You all may as well lay down now.
He should watch more of the shows where a halfway decent hacker and a computer can sniff out any kind of information, whether it's somewhere on the internet or not, even if it's hidden on a standalone computer in some godforsaken place of the marble we're on, a truly good hacker can dig it up.
So what does he need those laws for? He should hire a few more of those wonderful hackers.
Given the right price, I'm for hire, btw...
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
As Regan looked at the world through the fog of dementia and dirty windows at the White House he couldn't distinguish between movie scripts and reality. (Remember the refit of the New Jersey?) It seems that Cameron has lost more than a few brain cells too.
Cameron notices his butler has a tv and spends time watching it, realises this could be a way to communicate with the proles "on their level"
Your TV prviledges are revoked, go to your room!
"Enjoy what you're doing! If it becomes drudgery, you're doing it wrong!" - Jim Butterfield
It seems to me, from the British TV I watch, that the UK is clearly in need of a Time Lord's Charter, authorizing the use of the Tardis and associated technology in solving existential threats to the Earth.
When did "keeping us safe" become the primary function of government? Oh, that's right, George Bush and John Ashcroft used that as an excuse to make us live in a police state right after 9/11. Now it has spread to the whole democratic West. Good thing the terrorists didn't win.
Im convinced that if people in congress or this administration (or any administration in the past 20 years actually) tried to use this same argument, the polls would show over 1/2 of the us here in the USA would also be all for it
have you seen my sig? there are many others like it but none that are the same
who says that tv shows and movies are heavily not influenced by government agencies doings or their manipulation? You get full circle, we need to defend from what we are actually doing, or need to defend to the boogeyman we just put in front of you. And you will be convinced because you just saw it on tv. Never seen such political way to say "you are all retards and i will take advantage of that".
Not to defend him by any means, but in this instance his statement is no more stupid than invoking 1984 or other dystopian works of fiction as the reason the Snooper's Charter is to be avoided. Fiction they may be, but these works portray possibilities that inform how things might turn out in reality given a course of action, even if the actual outcome resembles the fictional scenario only in kind, not in actual detail. The ability to gain insight into ourselves is one of the many reasons we find works of art valuable in the first place. The key is not to confuse fiction with reality which admittedly many do.
"...over time we will have the communications data to solve these horrible crimes on a shrinking proportion of the total use of devices and that is a real problem for keeping people safe."
Ahh, yes, the spectre of bad things that could happen in the future. We can't show any actual evidence of the value of these kinds of programs right now, because it is fictional, but think of what might happen tomorrow! As Wimpy would say, "I will gladly protect you Tuesday for your liberty today."
Stop-Prism.org: Opt Out of Surveillance
Let's face it, 90% of people are fucking stupid, and believe everything they see on TV, including "crime dramas" where unbelievable feats of forensic science are achieved in every episode. People eat this shit up, and most of this stupid underclass believes it is necessary to prevent or solve crimes.
This is why the revelations that these ubiquitous, omniscient surveillance systems exists generated nothing more than enthusiastic yawns among the populace.
People... just... don't... care...
Honestly, the people who do care, even being as vocal as they can be, make an almost imperceptible noise against the drums of big tyrannical government - like an annoying mosquito in the ear of the underinformed, low-information majority who just wants to know when the next episode of the Kardashians or Property Brothers or CSI or other mindless drivel will be on.
Instead of pointing out what is wrong with the proposed law(s), the article jumps to name calling and insult throwing.
I suppose they could not be bothered to read the law and provide a meaningful response... Must not be a bad law if they can't provide an example of abuse, or problems, the law would create.
TV can show us what may be the future all the time. Everyone on slashdot (should) appreciate this concept, Star Trek/Star Wars, and many Sci-Fi programs. TV may blow it out of proportion, but not always. Sometimes shows us what, ideally, would happen. Crime happens in the middle of nowhere? Dump the cell tower for the 5 names on the list. Presto, you may have solved an otherwise unsolvable crime because they had a cell phone on them. (Yes, serious criminals may turn off their phone, or use burners, but there are solutions to that too)
keeping people safe.
This is the big problem. You can't keep people safe and there's on need to strive to do so to the absolute. You can keep them safer, and the trick is to strike the right balance between their security and their freedom.
If only there was some apposite quote from an elder statesmen of a bygone age...
systemd is Roko's Basilisk.
I like you.
What Britain really needs is a real Sherlock Holmes. He can only invade your privacy if you're within his sight.
I think we can officially declare the UK a lost cause.
It's been fun!
Where have you all been? Let's all skirt around the issue, let's pretend we don't know who it is behind all of this... I just can't imagine... what secretive group of people would possibly want to CONTROL everything that their 'cattle' write and say?
Who took away our right to free speech?
http://balder.org/judea/Hate-Speech-Laws-Immigration-Jewish-Influence-Britain.php
Is that not enough to convince you?
All the UK really needs is for someone to send in a team comprising of Jessica Fletcher, Adrian Monk, Dr. Mark Sloan, Father Frank Dowling and Constable Benton Fraser, RCMP.
And if that doesn't work, send in Daphne, Fred, Scooby, Shaggy and Velma.
In other news, the UK PM Sir Mortimer Chris (played by David Cameron) said:
"It's all because of the invisible leprechauns. It's true, because I saw it in a film. We have to be much tougher on everything and everybody in order to eradicate this terrible pest. The Snooper's Charter is just the beginning; I'm now working on the draft Wear Your Underpants On The Outside For Hygiene Law (WYUOTOFH law).
Most of my cabinet ministers have agreed with me, and those who haven't (because the leprechauns subverted them) have agreed to be publicly crucified in Wembley stadium to atone for their weirdness and sins.
I have instructed our nuclear submarines to go to code Red. Death to leprechauns. God will save us!"
To be, or not to be: isn't that quite logical, Slashdot Beta?
Why not have Cameron tout the magical ability of technology to keep the State safe; St. Reagan the Senile went about for most of a decade telling the world how his fictional space-based ray gun would save the world from nuclear devastation.
As a hardware and software professional of many years standing even back then, I'd go down the pub with my colleagues (HW and SW) and we'd all have a good laugh about the utter infeasibility of SDI, but that didn't stop ol' Ronnie. We'd joke about how if one missile got through, we'd have to refactor the code that failed and all we could do was hope that the original coder hadn't been living in the area where the missile got through or had written well-commented code...
So now, why not in England: "Well, last night DCI Banks caught a baddie using new magic electronics and CCTV, so clearly it is a national priority to have more of both, with emphasis on the magic stuff we won't/can't tell you about."
I, for one, feel safer for such statements as Cameron's. But then, the electroshock treatments ol' Maggie T. forced on me probably had something to do with that.
The mainstream media exists for one reason, and one reason only- to sell propaganda campaigns to the sheeple. For instance, in the UK, shortly after 9/11, the BBC ran a pro-torture campaign that featured propaganda in every form of BBC output- news, drama, discussion, etc. The basic premise was always the same. IMAGINE that a terrorist has planted a bomb in some school, and only by torturing the terrorist can you prevent the death of hundreds of innocents.
The BBC was set up, as the propaganda arm of MI5 (before it was known as MI5), right from its beginning. During the 70s, a switch was thrown at the BBC, and a broadcaster that had previously been 'racially' sensitive since the late 1950s suddenly unleashed the most foul racism into its popular shows. As a consequence, the ultra-right wing party (a creation of MI5), the National Front came into being and grew in electoral power UNTIL the election of Margaret Thatcher, after which it 'mysteriously' collapsed as a significant political force.
Of course, you may well ask how Cameron could be so very thick, that he'd refer to this propaganda method in such a moronic and self-revealing way. Well Tony Blair, the real power over the UK, has two puppets running the country day-to-day. Cameron is the brainless, upper-class twit who fronts the Conservative Party. He is even thicker than Obama, and cannot be trusted to say or do anything that requires at least one working brain-cell. The REAL Prime Minister of Britain, and Blair's trusted lieutenant, is Clegg. For you Yanks, Clegg heads what was Britain's 'true' Liberal/Libertarian Party, but once in power, Clegg adopted the policies of the hyper-Right, and set in motion the most extreme program of new police state laws- each of which had been detailed on Blair's wish-list when Blair was 'officially' PM, but that Blair lacked enough clout back then to get passed into law.
Technically, Britain is today ruled by a 'coalition', but Blair outlawed 'VOTES OF CONFIDENCE', and created a de facto American style presidency for the person/people who take power following a British national election. The House of Commons is supposed to be a democracy, where each elected Member has an equal vote, and the Prime Minister ONLY rules with the 'consent' of parliament. However, under Blair's coup, the Members lost their right to withdraw support from the PM, so the PM rules, even if he/she loses the confidence of the majority of Members, for Blair's new fixed FIVE (or is it six) year term.
Blair's change ENDED even the flaky version of 'democracy' that Britain had enjoyed for centuries. In the UK, unlike the USA, there is no national vote for a 'leader' (PM or President). The people vote ONLY for their representative (Member), and send this person as their proxy to the House of Commons. Now this proxy has ZERO say over the leader. Instead, the party (or collection of parties) with the majority of Members take control of the nation, and they may place whomsoever they wish into control (and change that person at a whim WITHOUT an election). By Law, British people DO NOT vote for political parties, even if their choice has a party affiliation. The Member elected is FREE to change his political affiliation at any time, without triggering a by-election, because in the UK you vote for the man (man or woman), not the party.
99.999% of current Britons have no idea that Blair tore up all the rules covering parliamentary democracy, and replaced rule by Member with rule by 'party'.
Anyway, Britain's PM, Cameron, no longer needs to win the support of the House of Commons, which is why he is free to be this moronic and mouthy, dribbling ever more extreme nonsense as each day passes. It serves Clegg (Deputy in title, but the real PM on behalf of Blair) to have the person the sheeple thinks is in charge to be such a useless buffoon. This fact makes it easier for Clegg to operate behind the scenes. .
we need to triple funding for creating GUI interfaces in Visual Basic! Hurry!!!
I have left slashdot and am now on Soylent News. FUCK YOU DICE.
If Camoron wants totalitarianism, he should leave Britain. The British people don't want a greatly expanded form of Stasi style spying.
I can't believe that anyone would actually want to propose more Nazi style spying, particularly in light of the extensive criminality that has recently been discovered at the heart of the American Regime.
In a related story, President Obama urged the stockpiling of garlic and to curtail its civilian use as a spice due to its effectiveness in combating vampires. How does he know? How do we ALL know? Movies and televisions shows about vampires have consistently agreed that garlic is a super weapon against the vampire problem. There. Any questions?
Donald Regan was Treasury Secretary and later Chief of Staff for Ronald Reagan, an actor who played the President of the United States.
The /g isn't strictly correct, because sometimes somebody might actually want to refer to Regan, but it's probably 99% correct.
Bill Stewart
New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
I think using Knight Rider and Macgyver as reference for national security policy would be far more effective that the murder porn shows.
The Feds really did have to raid Steve Jackson Games, because otherwise dangerous computer hackers might use their site to learn dangerous hacking techniques, like "Roll 3d6. If you get better than 15, your probe breaks through the firewall undetected!".
Bill Stewart
New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
Firstly, Cameron didn't say it was necessary. He merely used that example to illustrate what he was saying.
Cameron's first act as PM was to repeal Labour's ID Cards Act (which was compulsory fingerprinting, numbering and recording on a national database to hook up all govt databases) and destroy the hard disks Guardian-style. Maybe this is where he got the idea.
He also attended the inception meeting of NO2ID, the immensely successful campaign that Labour's Home Minister Secretary at the time, David Blunkett, acknowledged in his final speech.
The Tory Snooper's Charter was a mess. Expert after expert (including industry data-rape experts from Google et al) slagged it off in official proceedings and even an open letter. We're kinda used to Govts being clueless about IT but what was properly disturbing was how the Home Office ignored all this clear and helpful feedback. So certainly, Theresa May should be sacked.
I'm not sure Cameron ever stepped in until now. Under pressure from his party, Clegg eventually said he wasn't going to support any such Bill and so that killed it for this Parliament.
We badly need an Act clawing back some of the surveillance powers of the state. They can do already do any surveillance at the ISP level they want as well as lock up people for not disclosing their public keys. There are no checks on that power whatsover in this country bar possibly The Guardian.
So that's a summary of where we are. The debate I wanted to highlight is how do we assess Cameron's views on this:
Few people know this but Cameron used to write a column for the left-wing Guardian. And he was far more liberal a couple of years before he got into power.
Has he gone from liberal to totalitarian in 3-6 years? If so, why? Is it merely scary-sounding intelligence reports or is it possible that our secret services are blackmailing him?
Or is he merely trying to shift the cost burden of surveillance from the state to the ISP/customer? And if so, why is he talking about a dead Bill which he has almost no chance of reintroducing (since he'll almost certainly be kicked out in 2015)?
Right, like we should really base real world policy on the products of hack writers that can't come up with anything new to save their lives.
You do of course know that most of the B.S. they pull on those shows is impossible? For example, enlarging the digital photos to find the reflection in somebody's sunglasses of the license plate of a car across the street. It's about as realistic as having a wizard summon Santa Claus to tell you what the secret combination to the safe is.
(I could explain the technical details of why there is no more information to pull out from a digital pixel than that which resides in each pixel, but either you already know, or this isn't the right place to explain that much technology and physics.)
Rule 1 : of spook mind application therapy should read
1 say Paranoia breeds paranoia
2 goto 1
Hit run if you care...
oh 6417 or sumthing.
It does make one think about who is to blame for all the miss-trust.
He could bring David Cameron's administration down with two words... Ok, not two. Six.
"Don't you think he looks tired?"
Worked for Harriet Jones.
My sci-fi novel, Ghost Thief, is now available from Amazon.com.
Are the vampires also Muslim extremists or just the plain old bloodsucking variety? It could make a difference you know. Or if they are citizens, which political party are they affiliated with?
I think he's wrong and his policies are misguided. But it doesn't look to me like he said the fictional stories proved that these methods were useful, just that they illustrated how they were useful.
I suggest the media industry starts producing works where obviously innocent people are harmed through legal means by misleading information from extensive spying. This allows for a lot more creative stories than person-gets-killed-murderer-found or similar.
We would all be better off if just ruled by a coin flip.
Cameron also claims we (i.e. the public) approve of his spying on us.
Not sure what happened to conservative in Conservatives but they seem to be behaving like a little like the communists used. Vote UKIP next election.
Yeah, we need to stop these damn mutants before they appear in the world OR... tell the government to add gamma ray irradiation to the health insurance plans so that we all get a chance to develop superpowers.
It's all perfectly well explained in a lot of TV shows and flicks, they just need to copy the technology.
I would definitely go for some Incredible Hulk style of mutation, it would save me a lot of training time and gym fees.
but he seems on track to becoming a bigger dumb ass than his predecessor, just not as big a suckup to usa
Where someone will INSIST that torturing someone is good because "What if they had put a bomb in a school to set off in the next six hours and only they know where it is?!?!".
Forgetting that you, the viewer, KNOW that the dude in question did it because there was a film crew there filming it. This, unfortunately, is never the case in the real world that isn't "24". However, it does beg the question: why not just ask the cameraman which school they filmed this dude wiring up the bomb in? Somehow this never occurs to them.