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Most Alarming: IETF Draft Proposes "Trusted Proxy" In HTTP/2.0

Lauren Weinstein writes "You'd think that with so many concerns these days about whether the likes of AT&T, Verizon, and other telecom companies can be trusted not to turn our data over to third parties whom we haven't authorized, that a plan to formalize a mechanism for ISP and other 'man-in-the-middle' snooping would be laughed off the Net. But apparently the authors of IETF (Internet Engineering Task Force) Internet-Draft 'Explicit Trusted Proxy in HTTP/2.0' (14 Feb 2014) haven't gotten the message. What they propose for the new HTTP/2.0 protocol is nothing short of officially sanctioned snooping."

177 comments

  1. if you want a trusted proxy.. by gl4ss · · Score: 0

    ..why the fuck not just connect to the proxy over an encrypted pipe?!?

    --
    world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
    1. Re:if you want a trusted proxy.. by gbjbaanb · · Score: 4, Interesting

      someone didn't RTFM!

      and do what with the data then?

      The main point of a proxy here is to allow things like caching, so you connect to the proxy using an encrypted pipe and as the proxy is trusted, you allow it to de-crypt your data, do whatever network efficiencies it wants to do and then re-encrypt your data to pass on to the destination.

      I'm sure you can see why this might be a problem - your encrypted, secure data is automatically decrypted right at the point the NSA (or your ISP) wants it. Now if you trust your ISP or NSA to protect you and you don;t care if they are data mining your communications, then this is a great thing, let then do it as efficiently as possible.

      if on the other hand, you think that the data you encrypt is done to stop others from performing man-in-the-middle attacks, then you'd not want this to be used.

      Personally, I think its an ok thing as long as there's another mechanism for encrypting private data. I mean - you encrypt the boring stuff that you still don't want intercepted over a wifi link for example, but you still want your passwords to be properly encrypted and unreadable even by the trusted proxy. I would want the benefits of SSL on all my comms and have the benefits of proxy servers working with these, but still have my private data encrypted. I'm not sure how we could achieve this though, hopefully someone will enlighten me.

    2. Re:if you want a trusted proxy.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      That works for you, me, and maybe a few other people.

      For the billions of people online who don't/can't/won't think about what's actually going on, it doesn't work at all. In effect, all that matters is what Joe Sixpack does, and that's pretty clear. You can manipulate Joe into anything you want, by putting a shiny icon on it and telling him he can watch NFL Cheerleader Tryouts 15 in glorious High Definition.

    3. Re:if you want a trusted proxy.. by the_B0fh · · Score: 1

      Are you sure you understand what is being discussed?

    4. Re:if you want a trusted proxy.. by the_B0fh · · Score: 5, Informative

      You don't understand how things work, do you? This bypasses your "acceptance" requirement.

      They can just do it transparently.

    5. Re:if you want a trusted proxy.. by haruchai · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Lauren Weinstein is no lightweight; there's a good reason he's a Google consultant and have 400,000 followers. It's not for his singing & dancing.

      --
      Pain is merely failure leaving the body
    6. Re:if you want a trusted proxy.. by the_B0fh · · Score: 1

      Yes, I'm sure I'm not. Just like I know you're an AC idiot wanking away in your mother's basement.

    7. Re:if you want a trusted proxy.. by binarylarry · · Score: 1

      ORLY?

      From TFAbstract:
      "This document describes two alternative methods for an user-agent to
            automatically discover and for an user to provide consent for a
            Trusted Proxy to be securely involved when he or she is requesting an
            HTTP URI resource over HTTP2 with TLS."

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    8. Re:if you want a trusted proxy.. by binarylarry · · Score: 0

      That's a pretty impressive way to soak up mod points by saying nothing pertinent at all.

      Just throw in tons of "Joe Sixpack can't" and "poor oppressed people."

      --
      Mod me down, my New Earth Global Warmingist friends!
    9. Re:if you want a trusted proxy.. by Z00L00K · · Score: 1

      And the scenario where an ISP sets up a "trusted proxy" and forces all traffic to go through it - even your bank traffic.

      That proxy would be a goldmine for hackers and fraudsters.

      --
      If builders built buildings the way programmers wrote programs, then the first woodpecker would destroy civilization.
    10. Re:if you want a trusted proxy.. by binarylarry · · Score: 2

      It's only trusted by you if you assert that it is. This proposal formalizes the act of notifying of an available proxy and allowing the user to trust (or not trust) said proxy.

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    11. Re: if you want a trusted proxy.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Really? Because it seems he doesn't understand what is being proposed at all...

    12. Re:if you want a trusted proxy.. by X10 · · Score: 2

      If you don't *TRUST* the proxy, don't accept it's use.

      That's true. But then, if you're a user who's not very security savvy (like 95% of the people on the internet) and you think "https is secure, my isp can't see my data", and you think "secure proxy, sounds good!", then you're stuffed. Either the rfp should require isps to notify their customers that "secure" in this case means "secure, but we can see it", or the rfp should describe a solution where the isp really can't see the users data.

      --
      no, I don't have a sig
    13. Re:if you want a trusted proxy.. by binarylarry · · Score: 1

      That's true. However, the browser is going to be the technology that ultimately allows the user to act. So as long as Google, Mozilla, etc make the security risks clear, everything should be okay.

      The current set of browser security warnings are pretty effective (giant red screen with lots of scary text). If the end user still approves, it's their fault.

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    14. Re:if you want a trusted proxy.. by DAldredge · · Score: 1

      Ken Ham has lots of followers but that doesn't make most all of what he says true.

    15. Re:if you want a trusted proxy.. by the_B0fh · · Score: 1

      Consent can be as simple as logging in to a web portal. Think about it a little more. It'll come to you.

    16. Re:if you want a trusted proxy.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      IN ORDER TO READ THIS COMMENT, YOU MUST READ THE FOLLOWING 3 WORDS: "YES I ACCEPT"

      It will be yet another popup on your web browser, saying "security security security click here to access this website, if you don't click here you wont access this website"

      Guess which button people will be hitting?

      Protip: it isn't the one that denies them access to the website they were trying to go to.

    17. Re:if you want a trusted proxy.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There is no difference between this proxy; and an unsecure certificate.

      NONE AT ALL

      Unless it is a giant red screen saying: "HOLY SHIT THIS IS INSECURE DONT FUCKING DO THIS" it will be a failure. And; since we already have the giant red screen of BTW THIS AINT YOUR WEBSITE, then why are we standardising another way to do this?

    18. Re:if you want a trusted proxy.. by mellon · · Score: 1

      That's what the draft says. But it's NOT A BLOODY IETF STANDARD. It's an individual submission to the IETF. The IETF isn't working on this. Some IETF participants are. The IETF has a formal policy excluding work on lawful intercept technology or even allowing for it in our protocol specifications.

    19. Re:if you want a trusted proxy.. by mellon · · Score: 1

      What proxy would you trust with your banking details? Because this spec will let them see your private conversations with third parties including banks. Weinstein is correct to be worried about this proposal. However, this is not an IETF document. The IETF isn't trying to do anything here. This is a document some people have floated in the IETF. As written, I don't see it getting traction, because it's in violation of existing IETF policy.

    20. Re: if you want a trusted proxy.. by mellon · · Score: 1

      Did you read the draft? He's articulated quite accurately what's being proposed. Maybe that's not what the authors intend to be proposing, but that's what the document currently does in fact propose. (I say "authors" because the IETF has not adopted this work, so it's not accurate to say that the IETF is doing this work—the IETF is explicitly not doing this work at the moment.)

    21. Re:if you want a trusted proxy.. by tlambert · · Score: 1

      It's only trusted by you if you assert that it is. This proposal formalizes the act of notifying of an available proxy and allowing the user to trust (or not trust) said proxy.

      And if they simply redirect all port 443 traffic to their proxy by default so that they can cache content and optimize their network?

      You can either trust their proxy, or you can fuck off and not use https.

    22. Re:if you want a trusted proxy.. by sjames · · Score: 1

      In the vast majority of cases, when you are using an encrypted connection it is because the information you are exchanging is a private matter between you and the other endpoint. Mostly it's uncachable anyway since only you will have the page info filled in exactly that way. Why cache my bank account summary, nobody else should ever be able to fetch that exact page but me anyway and I already have it.

      So it's a 'feature' that is largely useless for it's claimed intent but tremendously useful for nefarious purposes.

    23. Re:if you want a trusted proxy.. by binarylarry · · Score: 1

      Sounds like a certain someone doesn't know how SSL/TLS works.

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      Mod me down, my New Earth Global Warmingist friends!
    24. Re:if you want a trusted proxy.. by haruchai · · Score: 1

      Ken Ham would think that the RFCs on Avian Carriers were groundbreaking science and is not a Google consultant with 20 yrs of IT under his belt.
      His followers are mostly led-by-the-nose idiots; Lauren's are largely grizzled geeks & distrustful nerds.

      --
      Pain is merely failure leaving the body
    25. Re: if you want a trusted proxy.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No he hasn't. He specifically mentions HTTPS, but the draft is about HTTP and *not* HTTP.

      If there was a caching proxy closer to the edge that made your wget of an ubuntu ISO 10* times faster, wouldn't you want that? No, you don't want your HTTPS Gmail to be cached and snooped - but that's perfectly ok, because that's NOT what is being proposed here.

    26. Re:if you want a trusted proxy.. by Hotawa+Hawk-eye · · Score: 1

      It's not going to be presented as a matter of trust. If the proxy bothers to ask the user to opt in, they will ask "Do you want us to use the SuperMegaFast approach to get this page or the normal way that's likely to be somewhat to much slower?" When phrased like that, I think most non-technical users (and even some technically-savvy users) would choose the fast MITM approach.

    27. Re:if you want a trusted proxy.. by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 3, Informative

      "someone didn't RTFM!"

      And apparently that someone was not alone.

      Right there on the first page it also says it calls for a mechanism for the person making the request to provde consent for the "trusted" proxy to, well, be a proxy.

      Granted, there could be problems with people consenting when they shouldn't. There might also be problems with essentially coerced "consent", as in a situation where that is the only avenue for accessing that resource. But those are different problems than that of someone just inserting themselves in as a man-in-the-middle.

    28. Re:if you want a trusted proxy.. by tlambert · · Score: 1

      Sounds like a certain someone doesn't know how SSL/TLS works.

      Sounds like someone has never heard of "router level redirect to proxy" and "deep packet inspection" so that you can either use their proxy and let them see your traffic, or you don't get to negotiate a connection.

    29. Re:if you want a trusted proxy.. by binarylarry · · Score: 1

      Oooh "router level redirect" that sounds serious. I bet it never occured to the creators of SSL/TLS that *routers* could be involved with transferring the traffic.

      Heavens no.

      --
      Mod me down, my New Earth Global Warmingist friends!
    30. Re:if you want a trusted proxy.. by tepples · · Score: 2

      TLS would indicate a man in the middle by means of a certificate warning. Now imagine getting a warning that the certificate is signed by your ISP for every single HTTPS site you visit other than your ISP's own site. You check the knowledgebase on the ISP's site and find a statement to the effect: "Either you accept our proxy certificate or you don't get to connect."

    31. Re:if you want a trusted proxy.. by epyT-R · · Score: 1

      Argument from authority and popularity are fallacies.

    32. Re:if you want a trusted proxy.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's not for his singing & dancing.

      Speak for yourself.

    33. Re:if you want a trusted proxy.. by haruchai · · Score: 1

      Not always. Especially when the person in question is something of an expert and the rebuttal consists entirely of "he's wrong"

      --
      Pain is merely failure leaving the body
    34. Re: if you want a trusted proxy.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      consent can be working for an employer who requires proxy use, or living in a country that does.

      Should we be helping to enable such things?

    35. Re:if you want a trusted proxy.. by dbIII · · Score: 1

      Some workplaces are already in that situation due to those stupid "SSL accelerator" boxes.
      Personally I think that is insane even if 100% of the traffic is work related - do people really want a nice handy little box where an outside contractor, the new kid helping out with cabling, the vendors of the device and anyone who knows the backdoors in such a never patched appliance get only confidential traffic nicely sorted and giftwrapped for them?

    36. Re:if you want a trusted proxy.. by Luckyo · · Score: 1

      Please log into your account and press yes to agree that you want to use internet though our ISP and to use out transparent proxy which is an integral part of our service. Thank you.

    37. Re: if you want a trusted proxy.. by WaffleMonster · · Score: 1

      If there was a caching proxy closer to the edge that made your wget of an ubuntu ISO 10* times faster, wouldn't you want that?

      There are a million ways to do this already.. CDN's, anycast, redirects... how is operating a proxy at scale a viable alternative to all the other shit that stays out of the data path?

      No, you don't want your HTTPS Gmail to be cached and snooped - but that's perfectly ok, because that's NOT what is being proposed here.

      No it is just ISO of your new operating system that will be used to access your gmail account. Oh yea those **MD5** checksums on Ubuntu's.. I give up.

    38. Re:if you want a trusted proxy.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Lauren" is a guy? If you google that name you just get photos of a lady.

    39. Re:if you want a trusted proxy.. by VernonNemitz · · Score: 1

      Even if the proposal became a Standard, that doesn't mean EITHER web-server developers, or browser developers, must actually implement it.

    40. Re:if you want a trusted proxy.. by dbIII · · Score: 1

      There's a book with a crab on the cover that you probably should read so you can get an idea of what we are discussing here.

    41. Re:if you want a trusted proxy.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Won't happen unless the workplace actually plans it this way. Internet traffic volumes will dwarf disc capabilities of your typical proxy unless recording all was specified from the start (and that's not the same budget at all).

      Even simple stupid event logs to identify infected systems that connect to command and control servers can weight a lot on a busy site.

      The only people that budget this kind of storage are the NSA or data miners like Google or Facebook and you know what? They don't need proxies to get your traffic, they already own your browser and the most visited US web sites.

    42. Re:if you want a trusted proxy.. by gbjbaanb · · Score: 1

      sure, "by connecting to ISP x's network you agree to provide consent to our use of trusted proxies to provide you with enhanced network facilities. Do you want to proceed?"

      That assume they don't just bury it in the small print and so you "agree" to its use permanently.

      The whole point of the article was own to this - trusted proxies will be inserted everywhere by your ISP and your data will be mined by them. Maybe its a bit paranoid,but its probably best to be quite clear right from the start.

    43. Re:if you want a trusted proxy.. by haruchai · · Score: 1
      --
      Pain is merely failure leaving the body
    44. Re: if you want a trusted proxy.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Even if the proposal became a Standard, that doesn't mean EITHER web-server developers, or browser developers, must actually implement it.

      I agree, the decision of how to configure my proxy settings belongs where it has been for the last decade: with malware authors.

    45. Re:if you want a trusted proxy.. by hr+raattgift · · Score: 1

      Sure, Terry, but what's worse, an MITM DOS ("you don't get to negotiate a [n https] connection") or an MITM that allows full inspection and modification of data that one (typically the server-side) or both ends think is an HTTPS connection?

      The server side has lots of standardized and/or developed tools to protect the integrity and privacy of data between the server and the browser that does not rely upon perfect (or even any) HTTPS. The assumption that HTTPS is perfect -- or even close enough -- has been holding back deployments of such tools for more than a decade.

      Apart from opening doors to greater network efficiency along several axes (caching and other deduplication and localization approaches, distribution away from single front ends, greater concentration of resources on single NLA addresses), deliberate trusted proxy ought to push people into reconsidering whether only-the-server-side-has-a-certificate TLS is *sufficient* for integrity and privacy. (I don't think it is, and I suspect that view is shared by at least some people behind two-factor authentication etc.)

      However, the safer bet is that the proposal is likely to be strangled by people with a very narrow view of HTTPS, or by a lack of engagement on the way deliberate trusted MITM affects the security model of the whole WWW (few people will ask if it can actually *improve* overall security compared to the many people who will argue that it necessarily erodes it). It's a pity, because separating integrity (arbitrary chunks of data with some signed checksum) and privacy is likely to be a clear win on energy where integrity-but-not-privacy-required data are popular enough to warrant being highly distributed and/or highly cached.

      Finally, another question that ought to be addressed is that a lot of eggs are in the HTTPS basket, and not all of them have been inherited from everything-over-HTTP. That deliberate trusted MITM exposes this question is not a bad thing, I think. However I would again bet that the consensus will be that the convenience of everything-over-HTTPS will trump that of a standard approach to making (especially) HTTP inside HTTPS amenable to caching, ad-removal, virus-removal, and whatever else a "middlebox" might do with HTTP now. After all, if someone really wants to do that, they can simply disallow (well, "break", even) HTTPS negotiation altogether...

      Thus, my own answer to my question at the top: where there is agreement to enable a trusted MITM to act, then an MITM DOS is much worse; but for any other case it's the lesser of two evils. The key thing here is in how to determine agreement and trust; where that's not clear to either the client side or the server side (which is likely a harder problem), surely it's not enormously different from an MITM DOS ("can't establish a valid HTTPS connection" because of anything from TCP port blocking to pinned certificate mismatching).

    46. Re:if you want a trusted proxy.. by hr+raattgift · · Score: 1

      Also, by way of self-followup, the internet-draft proposes a mechanism to distinguish between https URIs over encrypted http2 connections and http URIs over encrypted http2 connections, with the goal that only the latter will be subject to manipulation by an explicitly trusted proxy, and that the client, the server, and conforming proxies all take steps to avoid unnoticed manipulation or examination of https URI related data. (The client, server and proxy all have opportunities to "opt out" of the proxy's manipulation or examination of http URI related content).

    47. Re:if you want a trusted proxy.. by coolsnowmen · · Score: 1

      If the argument is, "trust me, I'm a popular authority" then sure, that isn't convincing.

      If the argument is, "Here is my argument _page_of_text_, oh, COUPLED WITH I'm an authority on the subject because thousands of other people have a history of listening to me, (aka 'this is not my first rodeo')" then perhaps your should at least listen.

      This is the core of "who do you trust". You trust people because of their history that got them to their current position of authority, not just because they are currently in a certain position.

  2. Opt out by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    At least it is possible to opt out.

    1. Re:Opt out by johanw · · Score: 1

      But possibly with the side effect of loosing your connection, or the ISP makinbg it slow for you like they do with Netflix.

  3. heard of WCCP? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Nothing new.

  4. user transparency? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    The draft seems to read the opposite of what the summary is saying.

    1. Re:user transparency? by Zero__Kelvin · · Score: 1

      It proposes an Un-trusted Proxy?

      --
      Guns don't kill people; Physics kills people! - John Lithgow as Dick Solomon on Third Rock From The Sun
    2. Re:user transparency? by binarylarry · · Score: 0

      No, the summary is fucking retarded and sensationalist.

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      Mod me down, my New Earth Global Warmingist friends!
  5. Re:And in some cases, you get to do this. by Zero__Kelvin · · Score: 1

    I read the summary. I even read the article. It wasn't until I read what you wrote that I had a true WTF moment. Nothing you wrote makes any sense to me. Seriously. It is to the point where I would really like to know what the hell you were trying to say.

    --
    Guns don't kill people; Physics kills people! - John Lithgow as Dick Solomon on Third Rock From The Sun
  6. Re:Cluelessness and hyperbole combined by Zero__Kelvin · · Score: 4, Funny

    Also, she really needs a shave.

    --
    Guns don't kill people; Physics kills people! - John Lithgow as Dick Solomon on Third Rock From The Sun
  7. Well for one... by Junta · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Pretty much anyone can submit an IETF RFC if they really want. The existence of a draft does not guarantee a ratified version will exist someday.

    For another, it could be much worse. There is explicit wording at least here about seeking consent from the user and allowing opt-out even in the 'captive' case, as well as notifying the actual webserver of this intermediary, and that the intermediary must use a particular keyusage field meaning that some trusted CA has explicitly approved it (of course, the CA model is pretty horribly ill-suited for internet scale security, but better than nothing). Remember how Nokia confessed they silently and without consent had their mobile browser hijack and proxy https traffic without explicitly telling the user or server? While something like this being formalized wouldn't prevent such a trick, it would be very hard to defend a secretive approach in the face of this sort of standard being in the wild.

    Keep in mind that in a large number of cases in mobile, the carriers are handing people the device including the browser they'll be using. A carrier could do what Nokia admits to in many cases without the user being the wiser and claim the secretive aspect is just a side effect today. If there was a standard clearly laying out that a carrier or mobile manufacturer should behave a certain way, that defense would go away.

    I would always elect the 'opt out' myself, but I'd prefer anything seeking to proxy secure traffic be steered toward doing things on the up and up rather than pretending no one will do it and leaving the door open for ambiguous intentions.

    --
    XML is like violence. If it doesn't solve the problem, use more.
    1. Re:Well for one... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Pretty much anyone can submit an IETF RFC if they really want. The existence of a draft does not guarantee a ratified version will exist someday.

      What you are trying to say is right, but what you actually said is wrong. Only the IETF RFC Editor (who is actually a committee, rather than a single person) can publish ("submit") RFCs, and once an RFC has been published it can't be changed. Internet drafts can be submitted to the RFC Editor by anyone, so long as they follow the IETF rules for submission, but an IDS is not an RFC. RFCs are not ratified, as an internet draft only becomes an RFC when it is published by the RFC Editor, and the decision of the editor is based on rough consensus, rather than a formal vote (as the IETF does not have formal membership).

      Furthermore, an RFC is not an Internet standard. IETF publishes Internet standards as STD-nnn, and in addition publishes best current practices BCP-nnn. Many internet protocols are only published as RFC, with the terminology "Recommended", or "Proposed Standard", but such RFCs may only be labelled as such with the permission of the IESG, IRSG, or a relevant active working group chair.

    2. Re:Well for one... by WaffleMonster · · Score: 1

      Remember how Nokia confessed they silently and without consent had their mobile browser hijack and proxy https traffic without explicitly telling the user or server? While something like this being formalized wouldn't prevent such a trick, it would be very hard to defend a secretive approach in the face of this sort of standard being in the wild.

      Except the consumer of this ID would be anyone with a browser which is potentially billions of people. The only question that matters in my opinion is can you explain the concept of "trusted proxy of untrustworthy content" to an average person (e.g. cookie baking oracle) ... if not essentially you are asking the user to provide an answer to a question they don't understand. A stupid and pointless question I might add.

      If there was a standard clearly laying out that a carrier or mobile manufacturer should behave a certain way, that defense would go away.

      Providing legal cover for illegitimate behavior I suspect is the whole point. See the user said it was ok (Even though they have no fucking clue) so now we have legal cover to continue with our bullshit without fear of retribution.

      It is not the fault of those who originally wrote the SMTP, HTTP W3C standards that their shit is constantly abused to screw over and scam millions. This was all done in an era of implicit trust and technical sophistication.

      It is however our fault for decades later continuing to allow this shit that passes for basic communications today to be so easily coopted by scum. This ID does nothing to fix anything... It just pours more fuel on the fire by asking users TOTALLY USELESS questions they are incapable of answering.

  8. Re:And in some cases, you get to do this. by the_B0fh · · Score: 2, Informative

    You have no clue what you are talking about. The "legally required" shit is already being done. There's no need to do any IETF crap.

    This is for ISPs to do it to you, without you being able to prevent it.

  9. Please correct me if I'm wrong... by cardpuncher · · Score: 2

    But as I read it, the issue seems to arise from the fact that HTTP2 will permit TLS to be used with both http: and https: URLs. If it is used for http: URLs, then existing proxy and caching mechanisms will simply break. I think this is a proposal for "trused proxies" to be permitted where an http: URL is in use and TLS is also employed, I don't think it's proposed that this should apply to https: URLs.

    In other words, it doesn't make things any worse than the current situation (where http: URLS are retrieved in plain text all the time) and does permit the user to control whether they want some protection against interception or potentially better performance. And it doesn't appear to change the situation for https: at all.

    Or that's how it appears to me.

    1. Re:Please correct me if I'm wrong... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      TLS SNI extensions already exist for secure connections, allowing for proxying of HTTPS traffic.

      You don't get to see anything other than the hostname, and it sure as shit is useless for caching, but your proxy can proxy the (encrypted) data.

      If you want caching, then you need to start distributing trusted certificate authorities, and providing secure certificates that fake out other websites as the traffic leaves your building. If you are BigCorp you have this sorted (you deploy and manage the hardware, you can install your CA there fine - you don't even get an error popup!). If you are anyone else you pretty much shouldn't be seeing secure traffic data ever, so... why would you want this?

    2. Re:Please correct me if I'm wrong... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's exactly what's being purposed. HTTP will be encrypted, but trusted proxies (e.g. caches) can be part of that call flow. HTTPS will be encrypted end to end, and proxies cannot be part of the call flow at all.

      This draft actually increases security: *EVERYTHING* is encrypted - but stuff that you don't trust proxies to handle is encrypted end to end.

      The original HTTP 2.0 draft leaves HTTP URIs encryption optional. There are two problems with that. 1) Some user agents have stated that they desire encryption always on, even for HTTP URI, and will revert to HTTP 1 is TLS is not available, thereby removing the advantages of HTTP 2 (like head of line blocking). And 2) If encryption is always on it means that caching proxies, and corporate policy proxies and/or school proxies become unusable.

      The problem that the HTTP 2 in its original draft form creates for caching proxies is obvious: it kills them.

      The problem that HTTP 2 creates for corporate policy proxies is more nuanced. It forces these organizations to either block HTTP 2, or to man in the middle all TLS traffic using dynamic signing under corporate / education installed root certificates. This in turns results in less privacy - because now even your HTTPS stuff that your employer before was just passing through is now being snooped...

      At the end of the day the draft proposal is really simple: HTTP for stuff that you don't care about being snooped (just like today), and HTTPS for stuff that you want to be private between your user agent and the content provider (again, just like today). The only difference is that even your HTTP stuff is now encrypted, and only your trusted proxies can decrypt it.

    3. Re:Please correct me if I'm wrong... by WaffleMonster · · Score: 1

      But as I read it, the issue seems to arise from the fact that HTTP2 will permit TLS to be used with both http: and https: URLs. If it is used for http: URLs, then existing proxy and caching mechanisms will simply break. I think this is a

      My understanding using TLS for HTTP via "HTTP2" is accomplished via *untrusted* opportunistic encryption. Nothing breaks if your operating a proxy supporting HTTP2. Proxy would simply terminate the encryption from the client and setup a separate equally useless "encrypted" channel to the server. The proxy would act as a middle man.

      proposal for "trused proxies" to be permitted where an http: URL is in use and TLS is also employed, I don't think it's proposed that this should apply to https: URLs.

      Basically what they are proposing is to provide a "trusted proxy" for completely untrustworthy http transactions. How is this not an oxymoron? What is the security value? Value to the user? Who benefits?

      It seems all this does is add more complexity while accomplishing nothing. And about consent good luck explaining "secure proxy of insecure data" doublespeak to an average human being who has better things to do with their time than read IETF ID's... more likely this will only confuse the hell out of people causing them to assume things about the content they are consuming which are false.

  10. The current solution by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

    If you want to do this now, you're typically in one of two situations:

    You need to proxy the traffic for all users of a company, in order to filter NSFW content and to scan for viruses and other malware. In this case you add your own CA to all company computers. Then you MITM all SSL connections. This doesn't work for certain applications which use built-in lists of acceptable CAs, but mostly the users will be none the wiser.

    The other situation is that you want a reverse proxy in front of your hosting infrastructure. In this case you just have the proxy operator install your certificate and make it look like the proxy is your actual server.

    In both cases, the Trusted Proxy extension would make more transparent what's actually going on, instead of pretending that there is no proxy when in fact there is.

    1. Re:The current solution by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      As someone that has been implementing transparent SSL proxies for network security appliances used primarily at corporate perimeters, the current state of affairs has been pretty bad. Trusted Proxy mechanism would make it less kludgy, and hopefully in general, more mature.

      Prevention of standardization now that HTTP/2.0 with more widespread encryption is shaping up is not a solution that would be particularly beneficial to anyone. Quite the opposite, in my opinion. I don't like the idea that deep packet inspection systems run by owner of the network and with consent of its' users need to be some sort of giant hacks.

  11. Hidden problems with proxies by MobyDisk · · Score: 4, Informative

    My employer uses a MITM HTTPS proxy. The IT department pushed down a trusted corporate certificate, and most people don't even know their HTTPS connections aren't secure any more. The real problem is when some application, other than a browser, needs internet access and it fails. This includ sethings like web installers that download the app during installation, automatic update systems, secure file transfer software, or things that call home to confirm a license key. On occassion a developer curses some installer for not working, then we inspect the install.log file and find something about a certificate failure.

    IT departments forget that HTTPS is used for more than just browsing the web.

    1. Re:Hidden problems with proxies by timeOday · · Score: 2

      Same at my company, but I take issue with "people don't even know their HTTPS connections aren't secure any more". Corporate machines are "rooted" in the first place, they generally install whatever new software the employer wants during each reboot or login. Probably half the cycles on my work computer are wasted on Symantec spyware. So, you can't lose the privacy you never had.

    2. Re:Hidden problems with proxies by smash · · Score: 1

      IT departments forget that HTTPS is used for more than just browsing the web.

      No, not necessarily. Some IT departments are just more paranoid than others about letting un-filtered https go through the firewall, due to the new generation of malware which is typically doing C&C over HTTPs to thousands of randomly generated and not blacklisted URLs.

      You have a choice - you MITM/inspect HTTPs, you allow only whitelisted HTTPs connections (which is not really practical due to the ever changing whitelist), or you allow any and all malware C&C straight through the corporate firewall. Option 3 is not really acceptable.

      --
      I run: Windows, OS X, Linux, FreeBSD. Just because you have a hammer, doesn't mean everything is a nail.
    3. Re:Hidden problems with proxies by silas_moeckel · · Score: 1

      Those applications are broken. If they fail to respect the OS proxy and CA settings they are the ones at fault.

      In a corp environment nothing should be calling home ever, that is what they made licences servers for.
      Updates should be gotten from an update server, ya know something that IT approves.
      Installers calling home again should never happen.
      Post SOX/HIPPA there is no secure file transfer your IT dept has a legal requirement to look and record things coming in and out the door.

      --
      No sir I dont like it.
    4. Re:Hidden problems with proxies by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      IT departments forget that HTTPS is used for more than just browsing the web.

      They don't forget (at least the decent ones don't). They simply see browsing as covering (say) 95% of the situations and optimize for it.

      And any other "non-standard" situations they want to know about to reduce the chances things getting in and things getting out.

      Dual-horizon DNS and blackhole (internal) routing is pretty good for finding malware.

    5. Re:Hidden problems with proxies by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      The real problem is when some application, other than a browser, needs internet access and it fails.

      Correct if wrong, but I thought that if the IT department installed the certificate in Windows itself, most outside programs use this library for their certificates?

    6. Re:Hidden problems with proxies by drolli · · Score: 1

      That depends on what the purpose of this application is. There are purposes for which you may prefer an application failing instead of accepting another certificate. If the application promised end-to-end safety, with a very specific *certified* configuration ending on the target (i imagine Software updates for the development of embedded systems in cars), then failure by default is the right behaviour until sombody signs of a sheet of paper that he/she/the company takes responsibility to the end customer (e.g. the development department) for anything transmitted in the wrong way.

    7. Re:Hidden problems with proxies by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      or you allow any and all malware C&C straight through the corporate firewall. Option 3 is not really acceptable.

      Depends on how paranoid you are; if you control what is installed and have the machines locked down against foreign (employee) installations. How can something call home if it doesn't exist on your systems?

    8. Re:Hidden problems with proxies by silas_moeckel · · Score: 1

      Anything like that is not running on a GP computer, as the hardware is very much part of the solution. Nor should it be connected to the general corp lan, an environmental system would be a good example it goes in a DMZ gets holes punched through to exactly what it needs and can not access anything else.

      --
      No sir I dont like it.
    9. Re:Hidden problems with proxies by drolli · · Score: 1

      The development systems for embedded software *are* running on GP computers. Simulink embedded coder etc require windows PCs. And yes, these developers dont transfer everything by floppy/sneakernet.

    10. Re:Hidden problems with proxies by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      By assuming you have it locked down against all possible installations of malware or otherwise - you have already lost the battle.

      Assume the machines that are in your control but not your direct line of site (and even then!) will be compromised. Plan to mitigate the effects of the compromised machine from the start (not after they have stolen thousands of credit card numbers from your POS machines).

    11. Re:Hidden problems with proxies by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Absolutely false.

      The CA system is deeply flawed. There is no way to create a list of "trusted entities" where each and every one of those entities is allowed to issue a certificate for any secure communication.

      No secure communications can use CA settings. The applications ARE NOT BROKEN.

    12. Re:Hidden problems with proxies by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      By assuming you have it locked down against all possible installations of malware or otherwise - you have already lost the battle.

      A battle with whom? The NSA ?

      AC, I see that you're paranoid, you may want to tighten that tinfoil hat a bit.

    13. Re:Hidden problems with proxies by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Consider yourself corrected. Take, for example, an application that downloads updates that *must* be secure. (Doesn't matter why, but let's say it's for a life-critical safety system and legislation requires it.) As best practice it confirms the CN and fingerprint of the SSL server it's trying to connect to but instead of getting the SSL certificate it expected it gets the certificate generated by your dodgy IT department's MITM proxy server.

      Unfortunately most applications are inherently insecure because they don't bother checking either the CN or the fingerprint of presented certificates, they rely on the crypto library throwing errors if the expiry dates have passed or the certificate was signed by an unrecognized/untrusted CA. And almost none of them check the CA's Certificate Revocation List URL to see if the presented certificate revoked.

    14. Re:Hidden problems with proxies by Richard_J_N · · Score: 1

      As a website operator, I want to know if my content is being MITMd en route to the user. I know about the SSL fingerprint trick that lets a really technical user discover proxying, but I want to automate this process server-side, and stick up a big banner to say "Your employer is snooping on this connection, please log in from a trusted machine" (and then I'll prevent the user from logging in).

    15. Re:Hidden problems with proxies by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not corrected sir, you miss the fundamental aspect of the OS itself has a certificate store, which I believe is closely tied to MSIE and the amount of software that uses this library is mind boggling. I suppose you have software that uses its own certificate system (rare).

    16. Re:Hidden problems with proxies by steelfood · · Score: 1

      The IT department didn't forget. The higher ups never knew, never bothered to find out, and never was interested in the answer anyway.

      --
      "If a nation expects to be ignorant and free in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be."
    17. Re:Hidden problems with proxies by WaffleMonster · · Score: 1

      As a website operator, I want to know if my content is being MITMd en route to the user. I know about the SSL fingerprint trick that lets a really technical user discover proxying, but I want to automate this process server-side, and stick up a big banner to say "Your employer is snooping on this connection, please log in from a trusted machine" (and then I'll prevent the user from logging in).

      What you just wrote makes about as much sense as: "My Internet is currently down so I'm sending a nasty e-mail to my ISP demanding they fix the problem."

    18. Re:Hidden problems with proxies by dbIII · · Score: 1

      A battle with whom? The NSA ?

      This sort of thing is their ideal wet dream whether it came from them or not.

    19. Re:Hidden problems with proxies by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You don't loose any security on corp systems. Your employer could preinstall a keylogger and you'd be none the wiser.

      The interop problems with non browsers are due to the way proxies are whoefully underspecified in http1. Let's hope this proposal (or another better) will avoid the same "proxies sort of work, except when they don't" problem in http2 (which is the topic of the workgroup the submitter is agitating against)

    20. Re:Hidden problems with proxies by Richard_J_N · · Score: 1

      Why? If the connection is being MITMd, then both sides need to be able to figure this out.
      There was a long discussion on this (regrettably rejected by the browser vendor) to allow the SSL fingerprint to be obtained in JS. That would make it reasonably easy for the site operator to verify that the SSL cert hadn't been tampered with. (Of course, a really evil proxy can scan for the JS, but that game of whack-a-mole is usually easier for the good guys to win, at least sometimes).

    21. Re:Hidden problems with proxies by MobyDisk · · Score: 1

      Post SOX/HIPPA there is no secure file transfer your IT dept has a legal requirement to look and record things coming in and out the door.

      Ironically, HIPAA requires that they NOT recording things coming in and out of the door. Yay for regulation!

    22. Re:Hidden problems with proxies by MobyDisk · · Score: 1

      In a corp environment nothing should be calling home ever, that is what they made licences servers for.
      Updates should be gotten from an update server, ya know something that IT approves.
      Installers calling home again should never happen.

      Thinking like that is why everyone hates IT departments. You are saying that applications should be designed to support the IT departments way of doing things. In reality, lots and lots of apps call home and perform their own licensing. There's nothing wrong with that except that it interferes with the IT departments "vision" of perfect control.

      Post SOX/HIPPA there is no secure file transfer your IT dept has a legal requirement to look and record things coming in and out the door.

      Actually, HIPAA states the exact opposite. That is why our company has specific file transfer rules in place to prevent snooping. If our IT department intercepted that they would be out of compliance with our own policies!

    23. Re:Hidden problems with proxies by MobyDisk · · Score: 2

      Apps that don't use the Microsoft certificate store:

      • Anything Java-based
      • Firefox
      • Foxit Reader
      • Active Reports
      • Putty
    24. Re:Hidden problems with proxies by WaffleMonster · · Score: 1

      Why? If the connection is being MITMd, then both sides need to be able to figure this out.

      You answer your own question in the next paragraph.

      You have a compromised communication channel and you are making decisions based on content of data communicated over that channel. It's broken so lets use it anyway and hope for the best.

      There was a long discussion on this (regrettably rejected by the browser vendor) to allow the SSL fingerprint to be obtained in JS. That would make it reasonably easy for the site operator to verify that the SSL cert hadn't been tampered with. (Of course, a really evil proxy can scan for the JS, but that game of whack-a-mole is usually easier for the good guys to win, at least sometimes).

      If you want servers to validate clients use client certificates or TLS-SRP to log-on to a site. All MITM countermeasures need to be cryptographically bound to session encryption or they are useless. "whack-a-mole" scenarios do not prove security and security without meaningful trust is an illusion.

    25. Re:Hidden problems with proxies by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm still willing to bet that the list that DOES use the MSIE engine for their certificates is far larger.

      Firefox is a web browser, I thought we were talking about standalone web programs as opposed to browsers (What is with this 'App' buzzword in recent years?)

    26. Re:Hidden problems with proxies by smash · · Score: 1

      Exactly. Defense in layers. Sure, you do best effort to ensure that hosts inside the firewall don't get compromsied. But you still design your edge on the basis that they HAVE been compromsied either via drive-by malware or intentional compromise by a user who may have been granted sufficient privileges on their own individual machine to do so. BYOD only makes this even more of a concern - the consequences for the LAN of malware C&C exiting your network can result in your network being added to various block-lists.

      --
      I run: Windows, OS X, Linux, FreeBSD. Just because you have a hammer, doesn't mean everything is a nail.
  12. I don't see what the fuss is about. by SuricouRaven · · Score: 5, Interesting

    It's already quite easy to add a * certificate to a browser to allow a proxy to intercept SSL. This is a standard practice in many LANs to allow the web filter to work on SSL pages - otherwise it'd be impossible to perform more than the most basic DNS/IP filtering on HTTPS sites, which would let a *lot* of undesired content through - google images alone would be quite the pornucopia.

    All this proposal does is formalise the mechanism that people are already widely using. The end user still needs to explicitly authorise the proxy, no different than adding a * certificate today - and that's something so common, Windows lets you do it via group policy. The author's big fear seems to be that ISPs could start blocking everything unless the user authorises their proxy - and they could do that already, just be blocking everything unless the user authorises their * certificate!

    And either way, they won't. For reasons of simple practicality. Sure, they could make the proxy authroisation process easy by giving a little 'config for dummies' executable. Easily done. Now repeat the same for the user's family with their three mobile phones (One android, one iOS, one blackberry), two games consoles, IP-connected streaming TV, the kid's PSP and DS (Or successor products), the tablet and the internet-connected burgler alarm. All of which will be using HTTP of some form to communicate with servers somewhere, and half of them over HTTPS, with the proportion shooting *way* up if HTTP/2.0 catches on.

    1. Re:I don't see what the fuss is about. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you want to remain relatively secure in your data, you would run these through your OWN server, and filter packets sent out to the internet. Preferably you have some sort of management to potentially 'secure' devices (computer, phone) and 'unsecure' devices (consoles, handhelds). Why the fuck you would ever want to plug a television into the internet (excepting a critical system update and the obvious that the tv is designed to update only from internet connectivity) is beyond me. I believe there is an LG tv out there that phones home and tells the motherserver what you're watching, including the title of movies from a usb stick. I would also cover the camera (with something totally opaque, like a strip of duct tape) and daub a good bit of epoxy into the microphone cavity.

    2. Re:I don't see what the fuss is about. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Before MITM HTTPS spying, some places blocked port 443 altogether, so Google images wouldn't work anyway; as well as all credible shopping sites.

    3. Re: I don't see what the fuss is about. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Samsung SmartTVs do also a tremendous amount of spying and reporting to unnamed third parties.

    4. Re:I don't see what the fuss is about. by x0ra · · Score: 1

      The NSA, GCHQ and other acronym agency are already spying everybody, so let's just formalize that even more. HTTPS MITM very basics is wrong, formalized or not.

    5. Re:I don't see what the fuss is about. by SuricouRaven · · Score: 1

      Because some televisions come with built-in netflix streaming support.

    6. Re:I don't see what the fuss is about. by SuricouRaven · · Score: 1

      Not an option with HTTP/2.0. Encryption is required - something it inherited from SPDY. This is because the SPDY designers very much do not want proxies getting in the way and potentially causing all sorts of screw-ups - it's just awkward when a string of perfectly innoculous data happens to trigger a profanity filter and causes a web-app to fail without obvious cause. Also, Google is an ad company, so they are naturally opposed to the other great function of HTTP proxies: Ad filtering.

    7. Re:I don't see what the fuss is about. by tlambert · · Score: 1

      It's already quite easy to add a * certificate to a browser to allow a proxy to intercept SSL. This is a standard practice in many LANs to allow the web filter to work on SSL pages - otherwise it'd be impossible to perform more than the most basic DNS/IP filtering on HTTPS sites, which would let a *lot* of undesired content through - google images alone would be quite the pornucopia.

      So, if I understand you correctly, this proposal does nothing which it is not already possible to do, and should therefore be discarded...

    8. Re:I don't see what the fuss is about. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I am interested about that as it didn't appear to cause many problems when I was at college when they blocked said port..

    9. Re:I don't see what the fuss is about. by SuricouRaven · · Score: 1

      Sort of. Nothing that isn't possible to do right now. But the MITM-via-trusted-cert isn't the tidiest approach. It's an administrative headache - every OS has its own method for adding a trusted cert, and some don't permit it at all, and it doesn't allow clients to validate the server's certificate if the proxy doesn't accept it. I'm not sure quite what this proposal is, but it appears to be something to build in properly from the beginning support for trusted cert interception so it won't be such an inconvenience.

    10. Re:I don't see what the fuss is about. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I agree with you with respect to the fact that it's easy for companies to add certificates to browser that allow them to man in the middle HTTPS and that companies often do this.

      The draft being discussed, however, has absolutely nothing to do with HTTPS. Basically the idea in the draft is this:

      HTTP and HTTPS become TLS encrypted

      For HTTP, when the user agent connects to a website, it'll start the TLS handshake first. The ALPN for that handshake essentially says "I allow trusted proxies." If the proxy sees the trusted proxies ALPN, then it responds back with its own Server Hello and Certificate, becoming the "secure proxy" in the middle of the call flow. If the ALPN is not present, then the assumption is that this is to be end to end encrypted (bypass the trusted proxy). The proxy then opens up a connection to the remote site on the correct port, flushes the TLS Client Hello, and TCP proxies the content.

      The point of this draft is that "encryption is good, and we should do it when we can - but there are scenarios, like for example caching large objects, where a caching proxy is useful".

      And again, this draft proposal affects HTTP and *NOT* HTTPS in any way - HTTPS is still end to end encrypted.

    11. Re:I don't see what the fuss is about. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Incorrect, the HTTP/2.0 proposal *as is* leaves encryption optional for HTTP URI (but mandatory for HTTPS). This proposal makes encryption mandatory for HTTP and HTTPS, but HTTP allows for trusted proxies for things like caching, or as in the case you mention ad filtering...

    12. Re:I don't see what the fuss is about. by dbIII · · Score: 1

      otherwise it'd be impossible to perform more than the most basic DNS/IP filtering on HTTPS sites, which would let a *lot* of undesired content through

      So? That's not really enough of an excuse to record what the users have flagged as purely private conversations by using https in the first place. IMHO it's just as immoral as installing cameras in motel bedrooms and bathrooms to make sure the guests don't get up to any private acts that the motels terms of service forbids.

      If I was in possession of one of these stupid SSL accelerator boxes, and the police decided to look at it and found details of online banking for users personal accounts then there's a pretty good case to send me to jail, even if site policy forbids users from personal web access. Even if you don't look at the stuff the fact that it is recording the information, even just for the purpose of caching, and that it can be read by those with access to the appliance is enough to crash up against the spirit of plenty of laws if not the actual wording.

  13. Misleading summary by claytongulick · · Score: 1, Interesting

    From the *actual* draft:

    This document describes two alternative methods for an user-agent to
                automatically discover and for an user to provide consent for a
                Trusted Proxy to be securely involved when he or she is requesting an
                HTTP URI resource over HTTP2 with TLS. The consent is supposed to be
                per network access. The draft also describes the role of the Trusted
                Proxy in helping the user to fetch HTTP URIs resource when the user
                has provided consent to the Trusted Proxy to be involved.

    The entire draft is oriented around user consent and transparency to the user... where is the problem here?

    The linked article by Lauren Weinstein is very heavy on sarcasm, scorn and flippant one-liners, but pretty light on technical details. From what I can discern, her primary concern is that ISP's will force all of their users to consent to them acting as a trusted proxy or refuse to serve them.

    This is pretty far fetched, imho. First of all, the backlash from the average consumer would be staggering. If, every time they go to their bank's web page, they get a scary security notice "do you want to allow an intermediary at "trustedproxy.verizon.com" to see your private data?" they answer, every time, will be "hell no". And if they are then unable to access their bank account because of this... well, that's not going to be a pretty picture for L1 support.

    Second, the *last* thing most ISPs want is to have to deal with yet more PCI concerns. If they end up storing your cc number and ssn in a plain-text cache, that introduces all sorts of potential problems for them.

    It seems like the primary use case for this technology is in serving media-heavy content that SSL screws up, like streaming video over ssl etc... so, it would allow caching etc for various media streams that really don't need SSL. And the user could make the decision for whether they want to do it or not.

    This seems like a pretty smart thing to me, I'm not sure what all the hand-wringing is about. Maybe I'm missing something obvious?

    --
    Drinking habits can be dangerous. You can choke on the cloth and the nuns will wonder where their clothes are.
    1. Re:Misleading summary by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It is like saying "We supply condoms to all people who work closely with children." It is fundamentally missing the point. There are so many things wrong with JUST the idea that proposing this draft on any day other than April 1st was out of line.

      Perhaps someone got trigger happy on this year's April Fools RFC.

    2. Re:Misleading summary by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      This is also from the *actual* draft:

      7. Privacy Considerations

      Notice how it's empty? The author(s) plainly don't give two hoots about use privacy.

    3. Re:Misleading summary by dbIII · · Score: 1

      From what I can discern, her primary concern is that ISP's will force all of their users to consent to them acting as a trusted proxy or refuse to serve them

      From what we've seen with the SSL proxies in workplaces that is a very legitimate concern.

  14. A Question by turkeyfish · · Score: 2

    What is going to happen to all those secure credit card transactions that are the life-blood of internet commerce, when third parties figure out how to decrypt packets en-route by infiltrating the procedures of ISP's and alter them to "achieve efficiencies"?

    You would think capitalists have a lot to loose if this proposal goes forward.

    1. Re:A Question by smash · · Score: 1

      You mean playing man-in-the-middle with your HTTPS? It's already been going on for years.

      --
      I run: Windows, OS X, Linux, FreeBSD. Just because you have a hammer, doesn't mean everything is a nail.
    2. Re:A Question by Rick+Zeman · · Score: 1

      What is going to happen to all those secure credit card transactions that are the life-blood of internet commerce, when third parties figure out how to decrypt packets en-route by infiltrating the procedures of ISP's and alter them to "achieve efficiencies"?

      You would think capitalists have a lot to loose if this proposal goes forward.

      No kidding. Every day brings more and more proof that the bad guys are smarter (or at least way more motivated) than the good guys.

    3. Re:A Question by TheGratefulNet · · Score: 2

      if I didn't install the OS and I'm inside a corp LAN, I assume the worthless little 'lock' icon doesn't mean shit anymore.

      I would use my own laptop and my own purchased and installed VPN.

      these days, if you are in corp LAN, you have to assume you are being logged and traffic sniffed. this isn't 10 yrs ago when it was new and hot to do this; I would assume any company bigger than 10 people have this 'proxy' shit going on (mitm ssl).

      and about 10 yrs ago, I had an interview at bluecoat when I was informed by a manager there that they were SO PROUD of the sniffing and fake certs they make users accept (crafted to look very much like 'real' ones) and that the lock icon is worthless from now on. I didn't take the job (it was too creepy) but that was a huge eye-opening for me. I did post about it and got lots of disbelief. well, NOW there isn't so much disbelief anymore. turns out I was right (or rather, BC was right when they showed me this demo at the interview).

      --

      --
      "It is now safe to switch off your computer."
    4. Re:A Question by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nah, they're fine with it because their brand of capitalism is heads they win tails we lose. They don't give a shit about security because it falls on the consumers.

    5. Re:A Question by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I would use my own laptop and my own 4G dongle

      I feel this would be more secure, in the event that VPNs are blocked at said workplace.

    6. Re:A Question by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Your scenario is based off the idea that trusted proxies are able to intercept traffic for HTTPS URIs: but they don't. The proposal in this draft leaves HTTPS alone, and instead encrypts HTTP, allowing for encrypted proxies. See the distinction?

    7. Re:A Question by UnderCoverPenguin · · Score: 1

      Valid point.

      Originally, SSL/TLS and HTTPS were developped and deployed to provide pprotection for this small amount of snesitive data.

      Now, for various reasons, we have HTTPS protect pages that contain a lot of "rich" content that actually doesn't need this protection. This has the side affect of creating a lot of extra, uncachable content. I can understand why ISPs would want a way handle that.

      So, is there a way to securely protect the sensitive stuff while leaving the rest unencrypted? Perhaps the non-sensitive stuff could be validated* with secure hashes, so could then be cached without need to decrypt anything?

      *As I understand, one of the current problems with mixing HTTPS and non-HTTPS content on the same page is that the non-secure content can affect how the secure content is handled.

      --
      Don't try to out wierd me, three-eyes. I get stranger things than you, free with my breakfast cereal. --Zaphod Beeblebr
    8. Re:A Question by smash · · Score: 1

      If it isn't the company doing it, don't worry, I suspect very much that the NSA can/does MITM SSL traffic. My suspicion is that they only relaxed the crypto export restrictions when they either compromised the algorithm or compromised one of the CAs so they can generate bogus certs that will be validated correctly as desired.

      --
      I run: Windows, OS X, Linux, FreeBSD. Just because you have a hammer, doesn't mean everything is a nail.
  15. Re:Cluelessness and hyperbole combined by Rick+Zeman · · Score: 1

    And she looks really butch on the motorcycle with the ape hangers.

  16. Re:Cluelessness and hyperbole combined by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Maybe her father was listening to Johnny Cash when she was named.

  17. "Alarming"? by BlueStrat · · Score: 0

    Yes, to those who believe that there should be limits to government power.

    It's certainly not surprising or unexpected for those who've been paying attention.

    At it's root, the cause is simple.

    People want government to provide more and more stuff and do more and more things.

    In order to do all that, government must have the wealth and powers to accomplish it.

    Because human nature is what it is, giving any person or group that much power insures eventual corruption, and ultimately, results in an authoritarian/totalitarian regime if left unchecked.

    It's like gravity, in that one cannot set in place any set of laws/rules/etc to change it. That's why the writers of the US Constitution tried to make as much of government as possible a strictly local matter and leave very little for the central government to do except things like treaties and wars. We left that behind in the early-1900s thanks to Woodrow Wilson, FDR, and the Progressive movement, and haven't looked back.

    In order for government to grow, individual freedom, choice, and wealth must suffer, as it is only from limiting/taking the people's wealth, freedom, and power of choice that government is able to act.

    Everybody is born free, government can only limit that freedom just as government creates no wealth and can only take it from those who create actual wealth.

    More government = less freedom. It's a zero-sum equation. More of one necessitates less of the other.

    How much less-free do you want to be today?

    Bastardizing or just plain ignoring the Constitution to grow government since the 1950s at a nearly geometric rate to feed the entitlement bread-and-circuses to buy votes and paying for it by enslaving future generations with our bills and loss of freedoms and choices has been working out *great* so far.

    $17 trillion in debt and an emerging authoritarian police/surveillance state with thermonuclear/biological weapons and one of the top3, if not the top, military in the world, great.

    The world needs to pay attention, because once those in the US government have secured their power here and raped the domestic economy, that military will be sent out to secure more wealth from other countries to feed the beast.

    You people in other countries had better pray to whatever/whoever you hold dear that those citizens in the US fighting to try to reduce the size and power of the US Federal government succeed or, and heed my words well, what will be coming your way if they fail will make the Nazi reign of terror and death look like a Cub Scout jamboree and George Orwell's "1984" look like an independent-thinker's and truth-lover's Utopia.

    Be afraid. Be very afraid.

    Strat

    --
    Progressivism (aka US 'Liberalism'): Ideas so good they need a police/surveillance-state to enforce.
    1. Re:"Alarming"? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You a thinker, ain't ya? We don't do none of that thinkin stuff round these parts, boy.

    2. Re:"Alarming"? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, sirree! Everyone, make sure to vote Republican, we have to make sure these unconstitutional powers are used the right way! We have to make sure people only have approved sex and ingest approved substances, and make sure they do nothing to upset our corporate masters.

      Wake me when the tea party is dead and the social "conservatives" have impaled themselves on a Jesus dildo so we can vote for some real conservatives.

    3. Re:"Alarming"? by BlueStrat · · Score: 1

      Yes, sirree! Everyone, make sure to vote Republican,

      Sorry to ruin your fun at my expense, but the Republicans are just as guilty as the Democrats.

      It's not an (R)/(D), Left/Right. Liberal/Conservative thing.

      It's a "basic civil rights all humans are born with" thing.

      Sell that partisan (R)/(D) crapola somewhere else. I'm not buying.

      Strat

      --
      Progressivism (aka US 'Liberalism'): Ideas so good they need a police/surveillance-state to enforce.
    4. Re:"Alarming"? by BlueStrat · · Score: 1

      You a thinker, ain't ya? We don't do none of that thinkin stuff round these parts, boy.

      My apologies, Senator.

      Strat

      --
      Progressivism (aka US 'Liberalism'): Ideas so good they need a police/surveillance-state to enforce.
  18. every firewall is already doing this by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    most firewalls that decrypt SSL session already do this. Their method is slightly different. They launch a MITM attack by faking the digital certificates of websites. Bet you didn't know this.

    1. Re:every firewall is already doing this by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And most workplaces install the fake certificates so the firewalls don't cause any popup errors like "ZOMG BROWSER CERTIFICATE MISMATCH" with the famous two options, "Proceed"? or "Get Me Outta here"?

  19. My Favorite Part by redshirt · · Score: 3, Funny

    Is that Section 7, "Privacy Considerations," has no content.

    1. Re:My Favorite Part by bussdriver · · Score: 1

      Should we trust anything coming out from the US Department of Commerce?

    2. Re:My Favorite Part by Alsee · · Score: 1

      Actually there is an extensive section on Privacy Considerations, but it has been deemed classified under U.S. National Security.

      -

      --
      - - You can't take something off the Internet! That's like trying to take pee out of a swimming pool.
  20. Heck no stay out of the middle by mattr · · Score: 1

    Call me old school but transparent interception of https does not increase my feeling of safety. It breaks the net and any security I might imagine in a transaction. This technology will make it really easy for anyone to do what for example Microsoft does to Skype connections (which is why Skype isn't allowed in my company). It provides for any number of decryption points to be created between you and your bank or whatever. The doc suggests that it can be used for both anonymization and deep inspection, positing that both are "good". I think it depends on who the user is whether one is desirable or not. As for a company pushing corporate certificates down its users' throats without them knowing it, I think this is pretty dangerous. The Internet is such a pervasive part of life now that if not informed, a user has a reasonable expectation that his or her communications will not be intercepted and possibly reformulated. It is like an operator listening to your conversation and being able to interject words into the conversation that you both think the other has said. Perhaps some people who don't remember a time when there was no social media don't get it. However I think a company should trust its employees and not intercept communications leaving the company, it is despicable immoral and weakens human dignity.

    If there are such overarching security issues like multimillion dollar contracts or secret plans that are worth alienating your workforce, then you should tell them and also install other demeaning but powerful security technology like biometrics, laser fields, strip searches, etc. The idea that some guys sat down to write this document and imagined that the "good" uses of this would not be massively overshadowed by the horrible uses of it is just so appalling it nauseated me to read it.

    Yes this sort of thing is going on now. But no, I don't think it is a good direction for society, I am not talking about national security forces but about corporations who will find plenty of reasons to implement this, so that while the desired "responsibility to management" i.e. load balancing, security monitoring, whatever is performed, there will become much more generally available back doors into any available communication ready waiting for someone who thinks it might be neat to open the door. The technology works regardless of whether there is a court order or anyone responsible in the vicinity. You may think I am paranoid but I think it is one thing when the police need wiretapping to catch mobsters. (I doubt they would catch any terrorists that way but who knows.) But it is another thing when the campus police, the kindergarten babysitter, every tom dick and harry with a web/phone/video startup is going to see this as a fresh new playing field. If they want to outlaw ssl fine. But I don't want to be using ssl and not know if it really is working or not because my ISP or phone company or cable company feels a need to be a man in the middle. Must the net be infinitely porous? They just can't leave shiny toys alone.

    1. Re:Heck no stay out of the middle by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      SSL was never meant to provide actual security. It was only meant to provide the illusion of security.

      Go look at the laundry list of CAs your browser trusts. It's a mile long, and any one of those companies can insert itself between you and the website you are visiting and get your login credentials, bank account numbers, personally identifiable information, and whatever other information you THINK is secure.

      SSL is defective by design.

    2. Re:Heck no stay out of the middle by WaffleMonster · · Score: 1

      Go look at the laundry list of CAs your browser trusts. It's a mile long, and any one of those companies can insert itself between you and the website you are visiting and get your login credentials, bank account numbers, personally identifiable information, and whatever other information you THINK is secure.

      Not to mention SHA1 signature algorithm all CAs currently using has been known to be broke for years. Would be amusing if a cluster of PS4's were used this time to demonstrate that which had apparently not already been learned five years ago.

      SSL is defective by design.

      Please join my campaign of pushing browser support for TLS-SRP. Tell all of your friends, have them spread the word, bug the sh1t out of browser vendors to commit the SRP patches already in many of their ticket systems. While it is no panacea it is a useful option where CA's and their planet scale trust anchors are completely optional.

  21. Not your computer by dackroyd · · Score: 1

    The author who says that this is 'most alarming' is missing one key thing; sometimes people use computers that belong to someone else.

    Any company that needs it's employees to be able to use the internet, but also want to be able to detect any employee that is sending documents via the internet to outside of the company would love to use this, as well as have every permission to install this on their own computers. They could then have the employees computers trust the SSL proxy, and it could easily detect any documents being transmitted.

    Poul-Henning Kamp covers this at the end of his talk at http://www.infoq.com/presentat... from 14:40 .

    --
    "Free software as in beer, copy protection as in racket" - Telsa Gwynne
    1. Re:Not your computer by tlambert · · Score: 1

      The author who says that this is 'most alarming' is missing one key thing; sometimes people use computers that belong to someone else.

      Any company that needs it's employees to be able to use the internet, but also want to be able to detect any employee that is sending documents via the internet to outside of the company would love to use this, as well as have every permission to install this on their own computers.

      Alternately, they put in a transparent https proxy, and sign a trust certificate for the proxy, and install the cert on all the corporate computers. Attempts to access port 443 from interior computers which do not already have the cert installed are redirected to a download page for the cert, and have a one-time "opt in". Making the proposal totally unnecessary for this use case.

    2. Re:Not your computer by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Companies already do that by doing SSL/MITM, which they can do because they install their own CA on all company-owned machines, so those machines will trust anything the company signs.

  22. The blind leading the blind by LostMyBeaver · · Score: 2

    While the article justifiably blows a whistle on what could be an abuse or power, the premise of the article is BS at best. It suggests that the tech could be used to maliciously snoop on people without their knowledge. The spec says nothing of the sort. It allows a user to make use of a proxy. In the case of a TLS only HTTP 2.0, this is needed. Without it, people like myself would have to setup VPNs for management of infrastructure. I can instead make a web based authenticated proxy server which would permit me to manage servers and networks in a secure VPN environment where end to end access is not possible.

    Additional benefits of the tech will be to create outgoing load balanced for traffic which add additional security.

    How about protecting users privacy by using this tech. If HTTPv2 is any good for security, deep packet inspection will not be possible and as a result all endpoint security would have to exist at the endpoint. Porn filters for kids? Anti-virus for corporations? Popup blockers?

    How about letting the user make use of technology like antivirus on their own local machine to improve their experience? How many people on slashdot use popup blockers which work as proxies on the same machine.

    This tech adds to their security end-to-end instead. After all, it allows a user to explicitly define a man-in-the-middle to explicitly trust applications and appliances in the middle to improve their experience.

    What about technology like Opera mini which cuts phone bills drastically or improves performance by reducing page size in the middle.

    Could the tech be used maliciously? To a limited extent... Yes. But it is far more secure than not having such a standard and still using these features. By standardizing a means to explicitly define trusted proxy servers, it mitigates the threat of having to use untrusted ones.

    Where does it become a problem? It'll be an issue when you buy a phone/device from a vendor who has pre-installed a trusted proxy on your behalf. It can also be an issue if the company you work for pushes out a trusted proxy via group policy that now is able to decrypt more than what it should.

    I haven't read the spec entirely, but I would hope that banks and enterprises will be able to flag traffic as "do not proxy" explicitly so that endpoints will know to not trust proxies with that information.

    Oh... And as for tracking as the writer suggests... While we can't snoop the content, tools like WCCP, NetFlow, NBAR (all Cisco flavors) as well as transparent firewalls and more can already log all URLs and usage patterns without needing to decrypt.

    So... May I be so kind as to simply say "This person is full of shit" and move on from there?

    1. Re:The blind leading the blind by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      This tech adds to their security end-to-end instead. After all, it allows a user to explicitly define a man-in-the-middle to explicitly trust applications and appliances in the middle to improve their experience.

      I think you need to re-examine your use of the word "security" and "end-to-end".

      This does precisely the opposite of what you said, to achieve the aim you stated.

      "This tech reduces their security end-to-end, to improve their experience" is what it does. I admit, it has the potential to improve their experience, if cached content is more important that secure content. But it can only *reduce* security end-to-end. There is no possibility whatsoever that it could ever maybe slightly increase security. It can only possibly improve their experience, as long as that experience is wholly devoted to page-load-times due to cached content and content compression.

      If their "experience" is ever tainted by things such as, information leak or third party malware injections, then this technology can only ever reduce security, since there is an additional place to target for such things that never existed before.

    2. Re:The blind leading the blind by jarfil · · Score: 1

      I guess it depends on where you consider the "end" to be.

      If it's at the user's computer, and all software inside is considered to be trusted, having one of these proxies to scan for malware on the "end computer" could actually improve security.
      Or if it's at the user's company, then being able to scan all traffic incoming/outgoing might increase (the company's) security.
      On the other hand, if you consider the "end" to actually be a person, with software in the computer not being 100% trusted, then you're right, this could only reduce the amount of security.

      Personally, I'm not that sure about any of these two to be right. Maybe a better way would be to have some traffic proxy-able, some marked as "don't proxy", and running your browser/tabs in a VM... but there might be several different scenarios with different requirements.

    3. Re:The blind leading the blind by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There is an aditional place to deploy stuff like anti-malware scanning

      And before you tell me you just have to deploy anti-malware on endpoints, because end-to-end-crypto is the solution to every problem (why?), and the average user will be able to keep his local anti-malware up to date, how many of you are relying on gmail malware filters instead of getting your non-google mail directly and keeping up your endpoint malware filters up to date?

      Mail is already functionning with intermediaries like proposed in this draft, and most of the fear-mongering people here are already using them all day round.

    4. Re:The blind leading the blind by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But, it _can_ improve security. The use case of the proposal is that the user is setting up a http connection, not https. Thus, there is normally no reason to assume the server even supports TLS for such connection. But with the draft, you will _at least_ get security between the user and the proxy. And the user _knows_ he has security to the proxy, rather than opportunistic (un-authenticated) security with "someone".

  23. Not Sure this is particularly alarming by the+eric+conspiracy · · Score: 1

    It seems to me this is just an attempt to standardize what people are already doing with fakey hackish methods involving bogus certs etc.

  24. If users blindly follow ISP instructions by nmoore · · Score: 1
    How would most users respond if their ISP told them "You must add these certificates to your browser" (with instructions, or even a little installer program)? They could then use their bogus CA to MitM every use of facebook/google/whatever.

    This seems no different, since it's up to the browser (not just the ISP) to enable the trusted proxy stuff. If a browser enables it without your consent (just as if they deliberately add a bogus CA to the trusted cert list), the browser is being evil and needs to be fixed. If it is left to the user, who enables it without understanding, that's unfortunate, but no worse than what can currently happen.

  25. Take it or leave it by tepples · · Score: 3

    Sure, you have a "choice" whether or not to trust a particular proxy, but in many cases it's a Hobson's choice: "Trust us or we block all your packets." If all ISPs willing to offer service to you offer a choice between their proxy or no Internet access, are you willing to take no Internet access? Would enough other home users agree with you to make serving them profitable?

  26. Did you look at the authors? by slincolne · · Score: 1
    The authors for this RFC are interesting.

    You have a team from Ericsson (as in SONY Ericsson). It's not like any business worth its salt would seek advice regarding security from Sony.

    You also have authors from AT&T - who have probably been passing customer data on since the days of Teletypes and morse code.

    Section 7 (Privacy Concerns) is blank - you have to ask why (too hard, or not a concern).

    1. Re:Did you look at the authors? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There is no Sony Ericsson. There's now Sony (who owns Sony Ericsson) and Ericsson. Totally different companies.

    2. Re:Did you look at the authors? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ericsson is on its own in network infrastructure. They are big player in this field, like Nokia.

  27. Requires consent of the user, sky is not falling. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "...when the user has provided consent to the Trusted Proxy to be involved..." and
    "The user-agent then SHOULD secure user consent."

    The way it is going to work is that a certificate is installed, via a trusted authority, that is flagged as being used for proxyAuthentication. The client software attempts to connect to a server through a proxy, usually on purpose. Examples: caching server for speeding up transit, tor-like proxy for conveying anonymity, corporate network for preventing malware or tracking usage, etc. The client software is required to notify the user they are connecting through a proxy, present the certificate to them for verification, and ask them if they give consent to the proxy to decrypt their data. The user can at this point, reject the connection.

    This is being blown out of proportion, it is not intended to be used in MITM attacks unbeknownst to the user. Let me summarize the draft in english:

    1) It requires user consent before it can happen.
    2) The user is informed it is happening, so they're aware of the proxy.
    3) The IETF draft even requires that the consent is only active for the current session, future sessions will requires consent by the user again. Unless the user explicitly requests to permanently provide consent. But, again, the user is involved int he decision.
    4) If the user does not provide consent, then the proxy connects the user and the destination server directly. The proxy is just passing encrypted messages it cannot read to the server for the client at this point.
    5) On the other hand, a captive proxy although it sounds scary, directly presents the user with a webpage requesting consent before allowing access to the connection provided by the proxy.
    6) The user can opt of the proxy.
    7) The draft requires the headers provided by the server indicate their is a proxy in between.
    8) Not just anyone can generate one of these proxy certificates, it requires extended validation.

    Nothing to see here, move along citizen.

  28. Re:And in some cases, you get to do this. by mellon · · Score: 1

    Actually if your TLS implementation is solid, there is no way for the ISP to do this to you. They don't have access to the keys. They can prevent you from using HTTPS, but if they do you will stop using them, because you won't be able to do online shopping or online banking, or even log in to Facebook.

    Also, TLS and HTTP are "IETF crap." Whereas the document Weinstein is up in arms about is not—it's a document that's been proposed as work in the IETF by a couple of people, but it is not work the IETF has adopted.

  29. Re:And in some cases, you get to do this. by Bengie · · Score: 2

    You have no clue what you are talking about. The "legally required" shit is already being done. There's no need to do any IETF crap.

    This is for ISPs to do it to you, without you being able to prevent it.

    Really? Because the draft says that the end user must explicitly given permission for every session(no "always agree" option). You really think FireFox and Chrome will not prompt the user and ask them if they want to use the proxy? If they didn't, I guarantee that someone would immediately fork the projects and make them work that way.

  30. HTTPS and avoiding broken proxies by bk2204 · · Score: 1

    One of the benefits of using HTTPS currently is that it avoids broken proxies. There are all sorts of implementations that claim to support HTTP 1.1, but don't support 100 Continue, content negotiation, or other important features you might need to use. If you use HTTPS, it currently avoids all the breakage (unless the destination server itself is actually broken). Besides the security issues inherent in this model, you have to worry about all the cases in which somebody installed some broken proxy that doesn't actually implement half the standard, breaking all sorts of sites.

  31. Re:And in some cases, you get to do this. by the_B0fh · · Score: 1

    Have you ever used a hotel wifi? When you login, they can use that to as your "agreement" to use the proxy as well. Did you read the draft? They can set it up such that if you disagree, you are stuck in limbo hell.

  32. Securing the session cookie with TLS by tepples · · Score: 3, Informative

    In the vast majority of cases, when you are using an encrypted connection it is because the information you are exchanging is a private matter between you and the other endpoint.

    Even if the only private piece of information is the session cookie identifying the logged-in user to the site, that's still "a private matter between" the user and the site. Since the Firesheep tech demo became public, it has become common for some web sites to go all HTTPS all the time to prevent intruders from snooping and replaying session cookies. Facebook and Twitter do this, and Wikipedia turned it at the end of August of last year. The biggest historical obstacle to HTTPS implementation for any site on a VPS or bigger has been mixed content introduced by ad networks, but in September of last year, Google finally enabled HTTPS for AdSense.

  33. Re:Requires consent of the user, sky is not fallin by EmagGeek · · Score: 2

    So does installing the Ask Toolbar, but I'll be damned if I can find anyone who knew they had consented to installing it...

  34. You are a bit of a kook by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Well, perhaps "bit" is perhaps minimizing that you are obviously challenged in both critical reasoning as well as verbal expressiveness.

    I'll bet you can't find a job. And you probably have no idea why. You probably blame "the man".

    1. Re:You are a bit of a kook by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sorry but you're all ate-up with the ad-hom, no factual response,

      FAIL.

  35. Re:Requires consent of the user, sky is not fallin by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The difference is that the Ask Toolbar doesn't ask you every time that it wants to run if you want to allow it to run. It just runs. Whereas, this trusted proxy draft requires that client software ask the user again each time a new network session is established. The user will not only be made aware of the connection, but be allowed to prevent it. And, the client will also state that you are connected to a proxy, for example a browser will show the certificate issued to the proxy. You'll know you're not connected directly to the server. In addition, you'll notice that you can opt out of proxy connections, the draft includes this. That means you'll be able to set a flag in a client to prevent a proxy from ever even asking you if you want to provide consent. This proposal is obviously intended to a workaround for people who need an encrypted proxy for some reasonable purpose that they actually want to consent to. It is not intended for surreptitiously slurping communications as all of the consent and opt requirements show. It is being blown way out of proportion by people who did not actually read the draft.

  36. This is the "http?" question with HTTP2/SPDY by matthewv789 · · Score: 1

    This is the same question as what to do with "HTTP" (not HTTPS) requests when transported over HTTP2 (which is supposed to be all TLS) and SPDY (which is already all TLS, and which HTTP2 is based on). Usually it's framed in the context of "do we need to authenticate and verify TLS certificates when the user didn't originally request HTTPS?"

    Some people are of the opinion that "TLS is TLS, and if you can't 100% trust it, there's no point." And I can see the logic in that. Obviously that should always be the case when you've explicitly requested an HTTPS connection, and ideally, at some point in the future, it would be nice to be the case for all network connections, all the time.

    But when you step back, you have to realize that those connections are currently completely unencrypted and untrusted - they're HTTP, not HTTPS. And that the march to encryption is slow. The majority of websites have no TLS encryption capability at all, maybe as many as 20% of the remainder are self-signed, and quite lot of the rest may have certs which don't match the domain being requested. (The same is no doubt true of apps, mobile or otherwise.) And the latter problem, particularly, is quite difficult to solve for technical reasons in a lot of cases critical to the orderly and economical operation of the internet, such as CDNs.

    This goes beyond the usual lament that sites will need to pay $100+ per year to get a cert - that's not really the problem, though from my experience most site owners will have to be dragged kicking and screaming before they bother to install a cert and get HTTPS running properly. Even if a cert is installed, most of them want to redirect back to HTTP at any opportunity.

    Besides performance, cost, and administrative hassle, the big problem is the royal pain that it can be to take care of all the issues of trusted certs across hosting providers, CDNs, lead generation partners, etc. That's because in a lot of cases, those providers are hosting assets under a variety of domains - sometimes hundreds or thousands of domains - on single shared servers (or many copies of shared servers), each with a single IP address shared among the various domains. It's shared hosting all over again, this time writ large across global CDNs and the like. Even with your own hosting provider, you might face the same problem on development and staging environments even if not on production, making testing difficult. And while they're working on the problem, so far HTTPS does not play well with shared hosting. (On top of that, a lot of ad networks don't support HTTPS at all, so they introduce the mixed content problem into your pages. If your site depends on ads, you might not be able to serve them over HTTPS connections, which is why some sites offer HTTPS only to paying customers.)

    The whole idea of SPDY or HTTP2 being "TLS-only" is laudable, to gain opportunistic encryption even when the user didn't request HTTPS. But by so thoroughly breaking sites with mixed content or untrusted certificates (either expired or self-signed or for the wrong hostname or whatever), I'm of the opinion that all it's doing is delaying the adoption of TLS for websites. Rather than going "oh well, to get HTTP2, we'll have to fix this", most sites, faced with the hassle and resulting broken pages, will drag their heels adding HTTPS or enabling HTTP2, forcing downgrades to HTTP 1 for many years to come.

    Encryption absolutists portray the question in simple terms: why would you not want to trust your encrypted connection? You'll be vulnerable to man in the middle attacks, therefore they should always be authenticated and verified. But the real question is: when users haven't specifically requested HTTPS, is it better to have those connections mostly be COMPLETELY unencrypted and untrusted (which are even more susceptible to MITM), but when they are encrypted to trust them (even if the user can't see that they're encrypted or trusted)? Or for a larger proportion of them to be encrypted, but not necessarily always trusted in the f

    1. Re:This is the "http?" question with HTTP2/SPDY by matthewv789 · · Score: 1

      My apologies, the second to last paragraph should read "in order to use SPDY or HTTP2 even for "HTTP" requests"...

      The extra "HTTPS" is nonsensical in this context and should not be there.

    2. Re:This is the "http?" question with HTTP2/SPDY by matthewv789 · · Score: 1

      Also, I could point out that requiring validation of TLS certificates for SPDY/HTTP2 prevents actual shared hosting from opportunistically encrypting all the zillions of sites they host, which would be trivial right now (chances are they DO have a certificate installed... in the ISP's name... but not for every site they host). While this wouldn't allow real trusted "HTTPS" connections, it would allow for a LOT of sites to suddenly be using encryption routinely without either the site owners or the end users even knowing it. All the hosting provider would need to do would be to enable SPDY, or later HTTP2, on their servers, and it would start opportunistically encrypting all the hosted sties using the hosting provider's certificate.

  37. Much ado about nothing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It's simply a way to keep existing proxy functionality for HTTP 2.0, since all of HTTP 2.0 is encrypted by default. If you configure a proxy in your browser and give it "trusted" status as this draft proposes, then it's doing the SSL work for you and has access to your data. Now the proxy can cache files and do it's general thing.

    Don't want that? Don't configure a trusted proxy. This is mostly useful for corporate networks and some other places that either are bandwidth constrained or need/want to log all access and run policy against it.

  38. Pure FUD by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The "article" is pure FUD with appeal to emotion, witch hunting and lack of any serious analysis.

    The "more crypto to the rescue" was thoroughly debunked by PHK in its FOSDEM 2014 keynote (and got ovations from several thousands of tech-savy floss-oriented people).

  39. Unfortunately it only takes one to abuse this. by upuv · · Score: 1

    This is laughably a bad idea.

    This will be abused the instant it hits code. The temptation is too great. This will sink the adoption of http 2.0 and 1.1 will live for a far greater time.

    With all of the news around man in the middle attacks I just can't believe this will be a feature.

    This needs to be amended. I can see trusted chains, Where you would trust a chain from end to end, but just the proxy? With each node in the chain being able to cache.

  40. Yeah by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    In this case you add your own CA to all company computers. Then you MITM all SSL connections

    That's why the first thing you do on any company machine is remove any company CA certificates from the certificate store.

  41. Not True by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    That's why I unplug the Ethernet cable before boot every morning and don't plug it in until after I'm booted to the desktop. I have a tiny wired router running Tomato acting as the firewall between my machine and the corporate network to fend off their usual hidden VNC or remote desktop assistance spying and remote registry changes. If they do something to the PC while I'm not at work, I just roll back to a previous state using snapshots I save to a TrueCrypt volume on my removable HDD.

  42. The Register FTW by CmdrTamale · · Score: 1

    From the fine artiicle at http://www.theregister.co.uk/

              "...the proposal is sponsored by AT&T..."

    We should be alarmed. No good will come of this, except perhaps to wake a few innocent slashdot readers from their dream of a safe friendly internet.

    Things have changed on the webs - there is evil out there.

  43. Re:And in some cases, you get to do this. by the_B0fh · · Score: 1

    How do you think companies, and even countries intercept https traffic?

  44. Consider the scale seriously instead of giving up by dbIII · · Score: 1

    Did you miss the "get only confidential traffic" - it's going to take a hell of a lot of normal traffic before you get 1TB of encrypted stuff.