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Mathematicians Are Chronically Lost and Confused

An anonymous reader writes "Mathematics Ph.D. student Jeremy Kun has an interesting post about how mathematicians approach doing new work and pushing back the boundaries of human knowledge. He says it's immensely important for mathematicians to be comfortable with extended periods of ignorance when working on a new topic. 'The truth is that mathematicians are chronically lost and confused. It's our natural state of being, and I mean that in a good way. ... This is something that has been bred into me after years of studying mathematics. I know how to say, “Well, I understand nothing about anything,” and then constructively answer the question, “What’s next?” Sometimes the answer is to pinpoint one very basic question I don’t understand and try to tackle that first.' He then provides some advice for people learning college level math like calculus or linear algebra: 'I suggest you don't worry too much about verifying every claim and doing every exercise. If it takes you more than 5 or 10 minutes to verify a "trivial" claim in the text, then you can accept it and move on. ... But more often than not you'll find that by the time you revisit a problem you've literally grown so much (mathematically) that it's trivial. What's much more useful is recording what the deep insights are, and storing them for recollection later.'"

24 of 114 comments (clear)

  1. That settles it by immaterial · · Score: 4, Funny

    I was the best mathematician in my university math classes. Who knew?

    1. Re:That settles it by ackthpt · · Score: 2

      I was the best mathematician in my university math classes. Who knew?

      Genius ahead of its time.

      I know I was hard at work involving the subtraction of beer from a case, addition to empty bottles, dividing time between drinking and the necessary room and multiplying the number of pink elephants surrounding me.

      Heady times.

      --

      A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
  2. Re:Learning != linear? by CapeDoryBob · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Math should not be taught as a linear process, but as a spiral. Visit the topics at first, so the student can understand why something is important when it is presented rigorously.

  3. Failing as a math teacher by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    All too often I've encountered math teachers who failed to properly explain advanced mathematical concepts because to them it was obvious and trivial.

    Gee, thanks.

    1. Re:Failing as a math teacher by jones_supa · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I have sometimes thought that the best teacher might be another student who has just a moment ago barely (but still correctly) grasped the concept.

    2. Re:Failing as a math teacher by 93+Escort+Wagon · · Score: 2

      An alternative explanation is those math teachers didn't actually understand the concept, and therefore were unable to properly explain it.

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    3. Re:Failing as a math teacher by techno-vampire · · Score: 3, Insightful

      What's worst is a teacher who defines a new term in a way that only makes sense if you already understand the concepts behind it. As an example, Rudy Rucker once defined a cardinal number (in a book) as, "A number is a cardinal number if it doesn't share its cardinality with any other number." Now, if you know what a cardinal number is, and what "cardinality" means, that's true. If you don't, as most of the readers of that book wouldn't, it's useless.

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    4. Re:Failing as a math teacher by esldude · · Score: 2

      I think you are right. Psychology learning investigations even with toddlers found in a natural environment (non-classroom) people learn by watching or interacting with those just very slightly more advanced than them. People who know just a little something they don't. This is actually obvious. Two people like that can communicate very easily as they are at a similar point of learning. The person knowing the extra thing or two learned it recently. Making it easy to help someone else replicate the aha! experience with new concepts.

    5. Re:Failing as a math teacher by ColdWetDog · · Score: 3, Funny

      Wow. He must write a lot of computer documentation.

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    6. Re:Failing as a math teacher by the+phantom · · Score: 2

      That is a good argument in favor of instructors giving time for students to work together in class (though this is often difficult to do in large lecture sections in a university setting, where contact hours are limited), and for students to form study groups outside of class (something that I strongly encourage my students to do whenever possible). I remember a time when the concepts that I am teaching were difficult to understand, but, frankly, that was 15 or 20 years ago, and I have forgotten what I had to do to make it click. I do what I can, but peer interactions are often far more productive than anything I can do.

    7. Re:Failing as a math teacher by Vyse+of+Arcadia · · Score: 2

      This is how definitions work. Definitions would get absurdly long and difficult to read if we defined everything in terms of first principles. I could concisely describe a solvable group as a group having a subnormal serious whose factor groups are all abelian. If I have to go back and explain group and subnormal series and factor groups and abelian it ballloons to a page in length, and those are all concepts that are useful elsewhere is well.

      Presumably that author wasn't just defining things cyclically and had defined cardinality elsewhere. You'd just have to go back and look it up.

    8. Re:Failing as a math teacher by ldobehardcore · · Score: 2

      When I was in high school, I was very good at math but couldn't be bothered to actually apply myself and take the highest level classes. I picked up everything pretty quickly, and I remember it being hellish when the teacher would say "break into small groups." Nobody cared to actually do the work. Most of the time it would be me and 1 or 2 other people in the class who actually got the concept, and everyone else would beg us to let them just copy off of me. I never consciously let anyone copy off of me. Most of the time, the other people who got the concepts would let everyone copy off them though. To this day that kind of laziness sticks in my craw, and I simply refused to let people copy. I offered to re-teach the concepts one on one, with the stipulation that they teach what they learned one on one to the others. This made it so I only had to re-teach the class once, then I could do my own homework. It was nice in that I was recognized for my abilities, and I was a decent teacher. I'll be damned if my students just copy off of me, so I did my best to make them prove they could do the math along the way. I think the biggest problem was probably that none of my math teachers actually gave a damn about math. They were all football/basketball coaches, and teaching math was just their night job, really. So the jocks and the cheerleaders always got passing grades, (at least C-) and everyone was left to flounder, since the coaches were too busy chatting with their favorite quarterbacks, pointguards, and cheerleader captains.

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  4. An old mathematicians' joke by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    There are two types of theorems: trivial and unproven.

    1. Re:An old mathematicians' joke by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

      There are two types of theorems: trivial and unproven.

      Actually, there are 3. Proof left for the reader.

  5. Re:"Trivial" by Jeremy+Erwin · · Score: 3, Funny

    I suppose you can reduce arithmetic and geometry (both quadrivia) to logic (trivia), but the liberal arts are seven in number for a very good numerological reason.

  6. Bizarre advice by AthanasiusKircher · · Score: 4, Insightful

    He then provides some advice for people learning college level math like calculus or linear algebra: 'I suggest you don't worry too much about verifying every claim and doing every exercise. If it takes you more than 5 or 10 minutes to verify a "trivial" claim in the text, then you can accept it and move on. ...

    While I agree that one shouldn't waste time questioning every statement you encounter, there's a very ancient and useful tradition in math pedagogy that emphasizes these sorts of things. See, for example, gradually building up geometrical theorems from a few axioms, a la Euclid.

    Often, the process of working out complex proofs for yourself is crucial to understanding why things work, not to mention developing and practicing logic skills that are essential in math and elsewhere.

    I'm not saying one should waste time trying every exercise or redoing every proof, but some of my greatest insights into the inner workings on math have come from exercises that took me a couple hours to work out or textbook passages I went over a number of times and really dug into how the details worked. If I skipped everything I couldn't do in 5-10 minutes, I doubt I'd ever have developed the more advanced skills and intuitions that would be necessary to see why some results are "trivial."

    1. Re:Bizarre advice by vdorie · · Score: 5, Interesting

      I came here to post a similar sentiment. I think it is a terrible idea to just blow ahead every time an assertion is too confusing. Getting the big picture and developing mathematical intuition is great but it doesn't mean that you'll actually be able to do math. For that, practice.

      I actually advise the opposite, to bang your head against a problem over and over until it breaks (the problem, that is). I don't think that we as a society or a species or whatever deal with confusion very well, and tend to take it as some sort of personal deficiency. We've also done a great deal of dumbing math down, so that when someone tries to make the jump from, say, AP calculus to real analysis, minds get blown and souls shattered. It's probably not that mathematicians enjoy crushing students, but rather that higher levels of math are just plain confusing for most people. They're based on abstractions that are pretty far removed from the human experience. None of this is to say that people who are good at math are better somehow, but it usually means that they put in a lot of time. I suspect that a lot of people who are math-phobic would get over it if you locked them in a room with nothing but math books to keep them busy.

      One that is clear, however, is that most mathematicians have no fscking clue what the word "obvious" means. There are some brilliant, dead authors that I would love to punch in the face.

    2. Re:Bizarre advice by AthanasiusKircher · · Score: 2
      Sorry -- accidentally hit submit before finishing my post.

      A lot of early math courses are trying to teach the mechanics of established principles so that you can solve specific, common problems and situations.

      If the only point is to teach someone how to apply some precise algorithm to a specific type of problem, why bother teaching math at all? Just say --if problem type X, type numbers into computer and run program A, if type Y, run program B, etc. There's no point teaching someone how to act like a glorified calculator anymore... this thinking is a couple decades out of date.

      There is a lot of basic stat you can do if you don't know why the standard deviation formula is the way it is,

      For frack's sake, no! If you don't know how standard deviation actually works, you are doing more harm than good by using it. There's more nonsense propagated by people using statistical measures without knowing what they are doing than just about anything else. I'd go so far to say it's the biggest problem in science today, aside from too much corporate influence in some areas. The derivation of statistical formulas often tells a lot about the assumptions each makes... which are essential to understand if the conclusion drawn are to be meaningful.

      or a lot of practical calculus you can do without knowing how to do a delta-epsilon proof.

      Those are only one way to derive basic calculus. And besides, there is a lot of room between deriving all of calculus from the fundamental axioms of the real number system rigorously, and not knowing anything other than some algorithmic symbolic manipulation without knowing what goes on "under the hood." I'm not saying everyone needs to do the former, but we should not assume the latter is fine either. I've seen a lot of crap done by people using basic math (or even educated folks using calculus or diff eqs) without realizing the assumptions of what they are doing.

    3. Re:Bizarre advice by Zero__Kelvin · · Score: 2

      Perhaps, but those of us who can figure out how to create an account and log in are even better!

      --
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  7. Any Good Scientist Knows This by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    We must all learn to exist in that exquisitely uncomfortable place where everything we know is always up for reassessment. Otherwise, we miss change, and change is the only constant.

  8. RIP Philosophy of Mathematics by Myu · · Score: 2

    If this is how things stand, then the Philosophy of Mathematics to date is a catastrophic failure. When there is no better methodology than "fumble around in the dark a bit until suddenly you're convinced" then the project of attempting to guide students in understanding maths has done no work at all.

    Is this the fault of the philosophers or the mathematicians? I'm inclined to think that the philosophers have at least failed in their advocacy, if not in their actual subject.

    --
    Myu: ... The map's upside down...
  9. Similarly with Engineering and Programming. by Michael+McClary · · Score: 2

    Some similar effects occur with engineering and programming. For instance:

    An engineer is ALWAYS working on something that's broken. That's because, when he gets it fixed, he moves on to the next thing that's broken. (It's like the thing you're searching for always being in the last place you look. It's not Murphy's law, It's becaue, when you find it, you stop looking.)

    A good programmer doesn't come to a problem with all he needs to solve it. Instead he comes to it with a big toolbox, SOME domain knowledge, and the skills needed to learn the rest during the project. This will be mostly stuff related to the project, but may include more programming tools as well.

    Designing/architecting a program or system is like handling a black bag with the solution inside, in the form of blocks connected by strings. You squeeze it around until you get it into two lumps with very little string running through the thin neck. Then you it into two bags and document all the strings that went through the cut. Repeat unti the bags are small enough to understand easilyj and keep the entire explanation in your head. (In the case of a program that means the code itself fits on a page, with over half of the page being comments.) Then you can open the little bags and grok each one - which by now will be either trivial or maybe embody a single deep concept or "neat hack". (But avoid "neat hacks" if they're not obvious or if something straightforward does the job just fine.)

  10. Re:Another student? by the+phantom · · Score: 2

    There is nothing like teaching a topic to force you to learn it.

  11. Re:you heard the one about ... by ClickOnThis · · Score: 2

    the constipated mathematician ?

    He worked it out with a pencil.

    Old School.

    Nowadays, he'd work it out ... [*dons sunglasses*] ... digitally.

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