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Why US Gov't Retirement Involves a Hole in the Ground Near Pittsburgh

Increasing automation worries some people as a danger to the livelihood of those who currently earn their livings at jobs that AI and robots (or just smarter software and more sophisticated technology generally) might be well-suited to, as the costs of the technology options drop. The Washington Post, though, features an eye-opening look at one workplace where automation certainly does not rule. It's "one of the weirdest workplaces in the U.S. government" — a subterranean office space in what was once a limestone mine, where 600 Office of Personnel Management employees process the retirement papers of other government employees. The Post article describes how this mostly-manual process works (and why it hasn't been changed much to take advantage of advancing technology), including with a video that might remind you of Terry Gilliam's Brazil. As the writer puts it, "[T]hat system has a spectacular flaw. It still must be done entirely by hand, and almost entirely on paper. The employees here pass thousands of case files from cavern to cavern and then key in retirees’ personal data, one line at a time. They work underground not for secrecy but for space. The old mine’s tunnels have room for more than 28,000 file cabinets of paper records."

32 of 142 comments (clear)

  1. What could possibly go wrong? by cold+fjord · · Score: 4, Interesting
    --
    much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
    1. Re:What could possibly go wrong? by schlachter · · Score: 3, Funny

      remove the oxygen from the mine so things won't burn. then the people can work without fear of fire.

      --
      My God can beat up your God. Just kidding...don't take offense. I know there's no God.
  2. Not surprising by Megahard · · Score: 3, Insightful

    My wife worked 30+ years for two different government agencies. Getting OPM to figure out her pension correctly was a nightmare.

    --
    I eat only the real part of complex carbohydrates.
  3. Makes perfect sense by Dan+East · · Score: 5, Interesting

    This makes perfect sense. Who are people eligible for retiring? People who have worked for the government longer than 30 years (lesser time depending on age). Thus a lot of the records having to deal with these employees are on paper, because that was what was in use when they were hired.

    So there are two options - spend a ton of money all at once and digitize everything, or simply process the old paper records only as needed when those long-term employees retire. The first option is very inefficient because a significant number of the records will not be needed by the Office of Personnel Management for individuals who have died or no longer work for the government.

    As time goes on, more and more people retiring will have all digital records, and eventually the whole paper thing can go away. As the article quickly glosses over, only 15% of the cases require referencing the old paper records actually stored in the mine. And that number will constantly be dropping as those older employees retire.

    So the current method is more cost effective and will naturally "go away" on its own after another decade or so.

    --
    Better known as 318230.
    1. Re:Makes perfect sense by pseudofrog · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Did you even read what he said? Or did you just seize up with anger when you read the word "government"?

      I mean, he gave a thoughtful comment pointing out that this system is probably the cheapest way of dealing with the move to digital records. Why did you then respond with "Herp derp! Government sucks!"

      You libertarians don't seem to even care if your rants are on topic these days.

    2. Re:Makes perfect sense by guruevi · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Not necessarily. I know at least one institution where day-to-day purchase orders have to be submitted in writing, signed off by two or three people, in triplicate, sent by inter-office mail, typed up into a minicomputer, printed out (using a daily batch print job), sent back by inter-office mail for verification, sent back again by inter-office mail with confirmation after which they'll create a purchase order send it back by inter-office mail after which you can send it to the vendor. Then once you got the product, the vendor sends an invoice where it has to be processed again in the minicomputer, printed out, sent out for verification, sent back with confirmation after which they'll write a check, send it back to you for sending to the vendor. Then once the vendor cashes the check, there is a final verification sent out and sent back.

      Oh and none of these processes are connected with a database. If you send them anything at any step, you have to include the entire purchase order because they won't know what you actually ordered when you simply say Purchase Order Request 135595. This process is supposed to take 2 weeks however they currently have a 3 week backlog.

      Replacing the system hasn't been done because (back in the day) they decided to go with a closed source solution and all that data is forever locked in a binary system. They're attempting to replace it with a closed source cloud-based system from an Australian vendor (this is in the US) which will take 2 years and 7 Aussie developers on-site (at ~$250/h each + room and board) just to implement the business processes, data extraction is done by another vendor to the tune of ~$1M. Your tax dollars at work!

      --
      Custom electronics and digital signage for your business: www.evcircuits.com
    3. Re:Makes perfect sense by plopez · · Score: 2

      I was working for a uni. on a mainframe system doing maintenance programming. One of my co-workers had the job of getting old records off of 7 track tape and migrating them onto an IBM OS380/MVS system in EBCIDIC. It took her 6 months to figure it all out.

      --
      putting the 'B' in LGBTQ+
    4. Re:Makes perfect sense by alen · · Score: 2

      RTFA article, it's a business rules problem
      due to lots of laws on the books calculating pensions differently for different agencies and different years of service it's almost impossible to code the business rules to take in different factors into account

    5. Re:Makes perfect sense by InvalidError · · Score: 2

      The point he was probably trying to make is that if the government wanted to make things more efficient, they should have converted most of those 30 years of paper backlog to digital form since they probably have to do that to make things fit with current administrative systems anyway.

      Doing as-needed data entry spares the trouble of converting documents before they are necessary but has more overhead for hunting down files on a case-by-case basis while bulk data entry spares the trouble of hunting down individual files at the expense of filing some data that might never get called up for. Bulk entry done right would also have the benefit of automated cross-checking to highlight discrepancies and potentially dead files.

      In other words, if the government wanted to be efficient about it, they would re-file data electronically for their primary working set and keep paper records for backup/reference purposes in case someone disputes electronic records instead of relying on paper records as their primary source.

    6. Re:Makes perfect sense by dbIII · · Score: 2

      Meanwhile in geophysics we just send the old stuff on reels to people that transcribe tapes like that onto new media nearly every month. However some current geophysical standards still have EBCDIC file headers and a lot of current software can read the old stuff, so that's probably only replacing the easiest bit of the above process.
      Vim can be used to edit EBCDIC and "dd" can convert it to ASCII.

      What is hard is getting stuff from low contrast scans of dot matrix printouts, or even from the original printouts if they have faded a lot. Reels of tape hold up better than some uses of paper.

    7. Re:Makes perfect sense by swillden · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Thus a lot of the records having to deal with these employees are on paper, because that was what was in use when they were hired.

      So there are two options - spend a ton of money all at once and digitize everything, or simply process the old paper records only as needed when those long-term employees retire.

      Because there are no personnel-related actions between hiring and retirement which could benefit from automation?

      And, in any case, the fundamental assumption behind your argument -- that records were all paper-based 30 years ago -- is simply false. I know from personal experience that one significant federal employer, the Department of Defense, managed all personnel records electronically 30 years ago. And, in general the notion of any large organization not having digitized such record-keeping in 1984 stretches credulity. Even in 1954 automation wasn't rare in large organizations, though it was of the punched card variety (and the punched card processing was often mechanical, not electronic). In 1964 it would still have been unsurprising to find a large organization that did everything on paper. In 1974 it would have been surprising and a bit backward, but not shocking. In 1984? No.

      In fact, the article even quotes a man who oversaw the system in the early 80s and upon discovering the fact -- in 1981 -- he was shocked and dismayed, and concerned that being near such backwardness would destroy his reputation. 30 years ago was well past the point when everything of the sort was all electronic.

      --
      Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
    8. Re:Makes perfect sense by tlhIngan · · Score: 2

      And, in any case, the fundamental assumption behind your argument -- that records were all paper-based 30 years ago -- is simply false. I know from personal experience that one significant federal employer, the Department of Defense, managed all personnel records electronically 30 years ago. And, in general the notion of any large organization not having digitized such record-keeping in 1984 stretches credulity. Even in 1954 automation wasn't rare in large organizations, though it was of the punched card variety (and the punched card processing was often mechanical, not electronic). In 1964 it would still have been unsurprising to find a large organization that did everything on paper. In 1974 it would have been surprising and a bit backward, but not shocking. In 1984? No.

      The DoD is probably a special case - most fhe 'employees' it manages are probably there for under 10 years, and the number of "lifers" is relatively few. Plus, DoD gets a huge budget every year and they can afford to modernize. They probably digitized the information because they found some loose change after the war, and the ones that weren't digitized mostly cleared out through attrition.

      Meanwhile, you have podunk departments who probably are staffed by people for 30, 40, 50+ years, whose budget rarely exceeds $100K, and all that, and you have to manage their information somehow. You could digitize it (it's at most 2 employees), but given it's just two people who probably know each other very well, doing it by paper is just as efficient. And they were probably there since the 70s and 80s (really, that's only 30-40 years ago) where they only time t hey saw a computer was when they bought a Commodore 64 for their kid.

      Yeah, you could digitize it all, but you'd probably need a whole new department of people whose sole purpose is entering data into a computer. For information which for 99.99% of the time, will never be looked up ever.

      Paper works just fine in that case - the probably is you don't know WHICH 0.01% will be needed, so you have to do it all, but you also know doing it all is pointless as the vast majority of it will just rot away on some hard drive somewhere.

      And really for that 0.01% case, the cost of looking it up manually probably is lower than entering in the bulk of the data.

      Especially as the problem will work itself out in the end.

      It reminds me of the xkcd that shows how much time one can spend automating something versus how much time it will save. The government probably did the calculation and saw it wasn't beneficial. The records are old, seldom looked up, and the more recent stuff is in the computer already.

    9. Re:Makes perfect sense by DNS-and-BIND · · Score: 2

      Remember back before January 20, 2009? When the government was automatically bad because Bu$hitler was in charge? Yup, everyone spun on their heels and suddenly the government was a force for good and anyone who opposed it was doubleplusungood. We have always been at war with Eurasia, we have always been allied with Eastasia.

      --
      Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
    10. Re:Makes perfect sense by jimbolauski · · Score: 2

      If you cared to RTFA you would know that there were two failed attempts to digitize the records one in 1987 that was canceled in 1996 and the second in 1997 which had a delivery date of 2008 that was scrapped because it didn't work. The first attempt failed because of lack of technical oversight as an English lit PHD was in charge of the oversight. Both programs had issues processing the vast array of documents with slight variations to them. Large government IT projects have a history of failing miserably, Obama care is the most recent, a research group found only 5% of these large projects succeed. I imagine the scope of the project is not clearly defined due to lack of technical expertise when writing the requirements, the technical oversight is lacking, and the magnitude of the project is underestimated in most of these cases. Anybody that has experience managing these large projects is not going to take a huge pay cut, move to Pittsburgh, and work in a cave. It's not lack of desire that these projects fail it's lack of expertise to get these projects to succeed.

      --
      Knowledge = Power
      P= W/t
      t=Money
      Money = Work/Knowledge so the less you know the more you make
    11. Re:Makes perfect sense by swillden · · Score: 2

      You should RTFA. The records are digitized already. A big part of what the "hole" does is turn them all into paper, then process them, then re-enter them in the computer.

      --
      Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
  4. Re:Mutants by nitehawk214 · · Score: 4, Funny

    Mutants living below New New York? That is New Pittsburgh...

    Actually that is the regular Pittsburgh. We call them "yinzers".

    --
    I'm a good cook. I'm a fantastic eater. - Steven Brust
  5. Re:This is a glitch in the Matrix...... by rmdingler · · Score: 2

    ... insert witty comment about government secrecy and overreach */

    Government secrecy and overreach aside, I'm not certain the power of technology is ready to challenged an entrenched army of bureaucrats.

    Long after every assembly line job is automated, government functions will still be as efficient as they were in the fifties.

    --
    Happiness in intelligent people is the rarest thing I know.

    Ernest Hemingway

  6. Re:Cue The Jokes... by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 3, Funny

    "Isn't a "Hole in the Ground Near Pittsburgh" that is full of government employees funny enough without resorting to rectal humor?"

    To be honest, I thought they fit together rather well.

  7. Re:Does the video play for anyone by scarboni888 · · Score: 3, Informative

    Played for me in FF 28 under 64-bit UBUNTU Desktop 13.10.

    Check your add-ons. Sometimes I have issues with Ad-block plus or No-Script blocking stuff.

  8. Re: This is a glitch in the Matrix...... by peragrin · · Score: 2

    The NSA is the exception. Still snowden proves the NSA relies on 50's era trust for documents. Why wasn't secure connections established for Hawaii? How many other sites does the NSA allow full access to their documents.

    Also the NSA fired 90% of their Admins shortly afterwards. If they were that overstaffed what else is their bureaucracy screwing up?

    --
    i thought once I was found, but it was only a dream.
  9. Re:This is a glitch in the Matrix...... by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 5, Insightful

    if that isn't efficiency, I'm not sure what efficiency looks like...

    The NSA may be efficient at amassing lots of data. But I doubt if that is an efficient way to achieve their real mission of identifying useful intelligence. They are efficient at creating haystacks, but that doesn't mean they are finding many needles.

  10. Not that bad by Animats · · Score: 4, Interesting

    This clerical shop processes once in a lifetime events. Once the retirement data for an employee has been calculated, it goes into a pension payout system that automatically generates the checks every month. So it's not bad that it's mostly manual.

    Some years ago, I got a look at the USAF Satellite Control Facility, which until the mid-1990s controlled all USAF satellites from a big blue building in Sunnyvale, CA. They "drove the bus" - handled orbital insertion and adjustment, stabilized the satellite orientation, monitored solar panels and batteries, and handled operational problems. (Payloads, such as cameras, radars, and such were controlled elsewhere by the owning agency over separate data links. Very USAF.) The systems used were so antiquated that one was a custom-built emulator for a tube computer. For each satellite pass, physical patchcords had to be set up to interconnect three computers (one to buffer data, one to decode it, and one to compute orbital mechanics) to process the data for the pass. The consoles looked and worked exactly like the 1960s ones from the Apollo program. The operation took about 600 people to run.

    Yet they never lost a satellite through an error made at that faciilty. The USSR has lost satellites through such errors. NASA has. COMSAT has. But not all those old guys in Sunnyvale.

    There were two attempts to modernize the facility; one using mainframes, and one using VAX computers. Both failed. It was finally replaced, cautiously, with a new facility at Falcon AFB. I have no idea what they're using. I wouldn't be surprised if some of the old software for some of the older satellites is still running in emulation.

    1. Re:Not that bad by Beyond_GoodandEvil · · Score: 2

      Yet they never lost a satellite through an error made at that faciilty. The USSR has lost satellites through such errors. NASA has. COMSAT has. But not all those old guys in Sunnyvale.
      How'd they do all that while being on top of a Hellmouth? Didn't the frequent vampire attacks make their jobs difficult?

      --
      I laughed at the weak who considered themselves good because they lacked claws.
  11. Re:This is a glitch in the Matrix...... by NettiWelho · · Score: 2

    The NSA may be efficient at amassing lots of data. But I doubt if that is an efficient way to achieve their real mission of identifying useful intelligence. They are efficient at creating haystacks, but that doesn't mean they are finding many needles.

    But is NSA's job really to 'idenfity useful intelligence' or create the databanks ready for when they do actually find a needle throught other means, that all they have to do is write the needles name into the search box and they get a list of needles friends and relatives and all juicy little dirty secrets as well, unabridged, in-detail history of you and your relations?

  12. Re:This is a glitch in the Matrix...... by JimSadler · · Score: 2

    I believe that law enforcement catches as many criminals as it can afford to catch. There are probably millions of Americans who could feel a hand on their shoulder at any moment but the simple truth is catching a criminal creates a huge expense in many cases. It is rather like an IRS auditor who can easily catch far more cheaters than the system could ever hope to deal with. It is also part of the reason that arrests are sometimes seen as racial in nature. If you were running a cop shop and knew that one segment of the public could afford good lawyers while another segment almost had to plea bargain due to lack of funds from a tax payer perspective you simply don't want to arrest those with enough money to fight back. Racial issues and money issues are welded together and it is only when a society is willing to hurt itself economically that the cops can go after well heeled citizens.

  13. I wonder what world that author lived in by Casandro · · Score: 2

    I mean paper doesn't have to be inefficient, in fact it rarely is since paper based workflows are often optimized. Everybody working with paper understands the process and can therefore come up with ways to optimize it.
    I once worked at a hospital which had paper files. It makes sense since the documents in there can be in a lot of different types. The process of dealing with it was rather efficient on the paper side, you had some numbers and got the file with that number from a cabinet. The actual bottleneck was the computer based indexing system. We had something similar to E-Mail called "Outlook/Exchange". We ended up printing out those pseudo E-Mails, looking up each number individually in the indexing system, and writing the number of the file next to it. There was no way of sorting the entries to be able to reach them efficiently, nor was the system well designed. (it had SQL injection bugs!)
    This is just one example of how badly designed computer based workflows can be.

    Then there is the other point of governments being supposedly less efficient than companies. I have no idea where that idea comes from. I have 2 retirement funds, one run by a private company, the other one run by the government. While the government one manages to pay out millions of pensions every month and flawlessly adapts to any changes in my life, the private one can't even get a simple address change right, twice in a row!

    Why should companies change? Companies mainly act to self-preserve. Any change is not just constructive, but also destructive. For a company to change it would need to have a vital reason, without that reason it cannot change.
    Some people claim that there is the magic hand of the market which will somehow fix the problem though something called "competition". Those people go on citing exotic areas where their dogma actually worked and there was competition. However look around you. Go to an electronics store with a list of brands that come from the same manufacturer and then look at how many different prices exactly the same product gets sold. If there was competition, everyone would buy the cheapest of the otherwise identical products. There is no competition on many markets.

  14. Re:This is a glitch in the Matrix...... by Sique · · Score: 2

    Then the NSA does a hell of a non-job. It wasn't able to find the nadle named "Tsarnaev brothers", though there were warnings about them. Same with "Abdulmutallab", which seems to have turned up nothing despite even his own father was warning about him.

    --
    .sig: Sique *sigh*
  15. Re:Mutants by TimMD909 · · Score: 2

    Their pontifications about the Steelers make it an amusing town to live in 'n'at. Yinz don't even know...

  16. Re:This is a glitch in the Matrix...... by oji-sama · · Score: 3

    I believe that law enforcement catches as many criminals as it can afford to catch. There are probably millions of Americans who could feel a hand on their shoulder at any moment but the simple truth is catching a criminal creates a huge expense in many cases.

    Considering the prison population in the USA in comparison to many other countries, the American law enforcement would seem to be rather well funded.

    --
    It is what it is.
  17. I'm here all week... by Hognoxious · · Score: 2

    Wow. What was it like before you implemented SAP?

    --
    Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
  18. Re:This is a glitch in the Matrix...... by bluefoxlucid · · Score: 2

    General deterrents don't exist. If they did, the death penalty would be a deterrent.

  19. Re:This is a glitch in the Matrix...... by Captain+Hook · · Score: 2

    Did they look similar to thousands of other warnings about others that never panned out into anything? If so, then it was just noise.

    With the benefit of 20-20 hindsight that warning was proved to be accurate. That means it wasn't noise, it was actually a signal lost in the noise.

    --
    These comments are my personal opinions and do not necessarily reflect the opinions of the other voices in my head.