One Person Successfully Removed From US No-Fly List

An anonymous reader writes "In February, Judge William Alsup ruled in favor of Rahinah Ibrahim, who sued the U.S. government in 2006 after she was mistakenly added to the no-fly list and subsequently denied entry to the country. Now, the Department of Justice has finally decided it won't appeal the ruling, making Ibrahim the first person to challenge the list at trial and get herself removed. 'But Ibrahim's case, as just one of hundreds of thousands of individuals who have been placed on such lists, shows the system's opacity. First, the only surefire way to even determine if one is on such a list in the U.S. is to attempt to board a flight and be denied. Even after that happens, when a denied person inquires about his or her status, the likely response will be that the government "can neither confirm nor deny" the placement on such lists. The government's surrender in Ibrahim comes on the heels of a new report by the American Civil Liberties Union that shows just how insanely difficult it is to contest one's status on the government blacklists (PDF).'"

Comments

Fun fact

[pegr]

Judge William Alsup also ruled on the Oracle/Google case. The more you know! ;)

Re:Fun fact

[Daniel Hoffmann]

The guy is the patron saint of common sense. One would think that common sense would not need a patron saint, being, you know, common...

Re:Fun fact

[kylemonger]

Too bad getting to common sense took eight years.

Hack it to add American names like "John Smith"

[romanval]

I'm not too sure how a no-fly list works since many people can have the same name.
If that's the case, what's stopping someone from legally changing their name to something more american/western-european and re-issuing their passport?

Re:Hack it to add American names like "John Smith"

[Anonymous Coward]

No-fly lists simply shouldn't exist, regardless of whether or not they can work. The idea that you can be considered too dangerous (Without a trial!) to fly and yet not dangerous enough to arrest is absurd. As others have said, this is just used for oppression.

Re:Hack it to add American names like "John Smith"

[Anonymous Coward]

No fly lists where you can not get off but only can add names is even worse. At some point the list just gets long and worthless. If everybody is on the list then no terrorist can do harm with a airplane...

By the way: I have a friend who's son is on the no-fly list since he's 3 years old! He's twin brother is not. Doesn't make a lot of sense to me. No way to get him off. There is just nobody responsible you could apply to.

Re:Hack it to add American names like "John Smith"

[spire3661]

"No papers? State to state?"

"No papers."

"Then i will live in Montana...."

Re:Hack it to add American names like "John Smith"

[Anonymous Coward]

It is interesting to look at this in the perspective. The one that shows the reasons and arguments used by founding fathers of the republic to make something different than opaque, corrupt and inefficient regimes of old continent to create something different: where transparency, the rule of the law etc are basic principles. Now look at what happened: this funny secrete courts of which decisions you may not talk, the no-fly lists which you cannot question because you will never know you are on one. Add to this: enhanced interrogation techniques, extrajudicial killings, the whole nonsense of war on drugs, the violence and inefficiency of US judicial and penal systems as well as lies used to send troops all over the planet (Collin Power etc). I wonder if that was unavoidable (I think it was). Every being and republic too gets old and starts seeing ghosts generated by the old brain, accumulated fat causes the body to stop functioning properly, Just wondering. Right now even Germany is more transparent and has more efficient state than US does. I guess the only branches of US gov. that still work kind of well are military and 'security' industry. I wonder how does that feel to become what one tried to escape from?

Re:Hack it to add American names like "John Smith"

[un1nsp1red]

I have a friend who's son is on the no-fly list since he's 3 years old! He's twin brother is not. Doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

Makes sense to me. There's *always* an evil twin. Always....

Re:Hack it to add American names like "John Smith"

[radarskiy]

The evil twin is the one NOT on the list, because he submitted false evidence about his brother.

2006-2014

[Rosco P. Coltrane]

So, 8 years for one person to be taken off the no-fly list. At this rate, ,by around 1,000,000 AD give or take, all innocent citizens denied their basic constitutional right to travel freely without trial will finally be allowed to board an airplane. Good news!

How is the no fly list legal?

[Anonymous Coward]

Can someone explain how the government can impose penalties on a person without providing the evidence against them? Is the entire premise that you can't show standing because you can't know you're on the list? It seems we have a shitload of that going on right now, whereas we shouldn't have any.

Re:How is the no fly list legal?

[pegr]

Can someone explain how the government can impose penalties on a person without providing the evidence against them?

No.

Face Palm

[Patent Lover]

The whole concept of a no-fly list so utterly asinine that it boggles the mind. Too dangerous to fly in a plane after going through security, not dangerous enough to arrest. Riiiiiiight.

Re:Face Palm

[Minwee]

It gets better. Would you believe that people who actually are suspected terrorists are kept off of the list to avoid tipping them off?

Re:Shocked and saddened

[Rosco P. Coltrane]

Tell that to the poor sods in Gitmo still awaiting trial - or charges, for that matter.

Didn't our current Glorious Leader promise to close down that shame of a concentration camp years ago, incidentally?

Re:Shocked and saddened

[Holi]

He did, and he tried, but some ass hats in Congress made it impossible. Please if you gon to cast blame, cast it in the right direction.

There are still similar names and copies of lists

[UnderCoverPenguin]

Besides the possibility of a match to a similar name, even if only "official" copies of the the no-fly list are consulted, I would not be surprised if copies of her entry linger in the various copies of that list.

(A friend of mine who has a name similar to someone on a sex offenders' list was mistakenly added as a variant spelling of the original listing. Even after getting a court order to remove his listing, it had propagated to other copies and was eventually merged back in to the original as updates were passed around the various government agencies. He then got an order to amend his listing to state it was invalid, but (A) that merely added a new entry, with no guarantee which entry would show first, and (B), most checkers don't look beyond seeing of there is a match.)

Idea for replacing the lengthy appeals process

[Anonymous Coward]

Given that the Supreme Court has upheld freedom of travel is a right, and given that the no-fly list violates that right of anybody whose name is on it:

Make the first step in the appeal process very confrontational:
Either the government describes in open court, within a short time (say, 72 hours) of the person being denied travel, that they have better-than-probable cause to prevent this person from flying -- more than just a matching or similar name -- else the government representative in court (or the first-level manager at the airport who denied travel, if the gov't is a no-show) gets locked up for contempt until the person is removed off the list and all copies.

In essence, the gov't has to submit prima facie evidence why they deny this person the right to travel; if they fail, they go to prison. And AFAIK there is no maximum limit on how long somebody can stay in prison for contempt of court.

Re:Shocked and saddened

[currently_awake]

put them on trial. If you have proof of criminal activity then that should be easy. If you don't have proof then send them home. Better a hundred criminals go free than a single innocent man languish in jail.