Slashdot Mirror
FWD.us Wants More H-1B Visas, But 50% Go To Offshore Firms
theodp writes: "On the day the U.S. began accepting H-1B visa applications for FY2015, Mark Zuckerberg's FWD.us PAC stepped up its lobbying efforts for more tech visas even as ComputerWorld reported that the major share of H-1B visas go to offshore outsourcing firms that use visa holders to displace U.S. workers. 'The two largest H-1B users,' notes ComputerWorld, 'are Indian-based, Infosys, with 6,298 visas, and Tata Consultancy Services (TCS), with 6,258.' ComputerWorld adds that food and agricultural company Cargill is outsourcing IT jobs to TCS, including 300 in Minnesota, the home of Sen. Amy Klobuchar, sponsor of the I-Squared Act of 2013, which would allow H-1B visa caps to rise to 300,000 annually."
Management still doesn't understand why you pay for talent.
My ism, it's full of beliefs.
I'm not at all sure I understand the purpose of tech visas, but if the problem they're supposed to solve is that there aren't enough tech workers to fill the available jobs, then surely the upshot is the same either way? The visas issued to Infosys may be used to displace existing US tech workers, but those displaced workers are then available for Facebook to hire.
The American workers out of jobs, at least support American companies in the process, no? I'm not even American, I'm Canadian, so while I don't have a vested interest, I can see and understand the hate. Essentially it makes sense to bring in tech talent with the purpose of filling vacancies that can not otherwise be filled with the domestic talent. It isn't being used for that in many cases, though - rather is used to cut cost and 'get 'er done'. If the gov't is going to enable this cost-cutting advantage, it should make sense to at least offer it to American companies rather than foreign - why would they want to both displace more expensive workers as well as displace them with the intention of supporting a foreign enterprise in the process?
As software continues to devour the world, every industry becomes dependent on tech workers to continue to operate. Allowing the active participation of software outsourcing firms in the US labour market via H1B's helps manage wage inflation within the sector.
When foreign goods are sold locally cheaper because the foreign government subsidises their farmers, the local farmers are hit hard. The same with finished /consumer goods, local industries get hit. The US keeps pushing developing countries to open up their markets so that US made goods can be sold cheap.
So may be its always a give-take relationship. Not that I support hordes of H1B displacing US folks, but its almost analogous to what happens in other areas caused by US companies.
The H1B typically works for $10.00-17/hr - somewhere around $35k/year.
In addition, they live 3-4 to an apartment, and if they're in the country for
less than a certain number of days (I don't remember the exact number,
somewhere around 150 days), don't pay U.S. Federal income tax. That's
why they return / rotate home at regular intervals.
Not trying to be funny, but the H1B is rotate / passed to similar looking
workers, so 300,000 effectively becomes 600,000 or greater.
It's very hard for a U.S. citizen trying to support a family to compete against
this invasion.
... Klobuchar is a Democrat. And these tech CEOs are noted "progressives".
It seems that they think that paying low wages is a great idea ... for them.
Other businesses, mind you, we have to mandate that they pay their employees more. And claim that this will have no effect on the bottom line.
Instead of increasing H1b's which are abused by offshore firms, make a new category for foreigners who hold a graduate degree from a top US school. The US has by far the best Universities in most areas, but the best foreign students often leave the US because of the very restrictive H1b Visa system (employment-tied, application only on April for October start, dependents not eligible for work etc). Why provide world-leading education and then let the best talent go?
Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent. Polar Scope Align for iOS
Thanks. Here, let me just click on your spam link. Fuckwit.
Further proof that our government does not work for us, it works for the corporatocracy. They have no interest in the common man's problems. This however will be their undoing. Who is going to buy the goods and services these assholes are providing, when we are all broke and unemployed?
As someone who worked on an H1-B visa about 10 years back in Silicon Valley, i can confirm that these visas are being misused by IT consulting companies. They take the majority of these visas and then use them as baits in india for IT professionals. Most indian IT companies are nothing but cheap labour shops. If there is a dearth of IT professionals, make H1-B non-employer specific. All it does is make you a bonded labourer for 4-6 years with your employer who promises to process your green card while paying you a low salary. This is a big scam and i hope enough people take notice so that something is done about it. Most people on H1-B won't speak about it cause they don't want to go back home or lose their job. This is what keeps it going.
I donate a LOT of money to FWD.us to try to get the H1-B limits increased. Why? Because while my company does do business in the US, I despise US workers - who are generally a bunch of self-important, entitled brats who think they are God's gift to development. The worst part? They are simply lazy. My God are Americans lazy. Show up at 8:45... leave at 4:15... hour and half lunch.. sitting around surfing the Internet all day while finding a few minutes here and there to do some work in between facebook posts.
I don't have these problems at our Bangalore design center. I do bring a lot of people over on L-1 visas, but we must have H1-B limits increased, or removed altogether, so we can engage talented resources already living in the US. It's inconvenient to hire someone in India for placement in the US on an L-1 since they have to work for a year before they are eligible.
I wonder if this guy would qualify for an H1-B?
He tried to kill me with a forklift!
Zuckerturd is in it with big government who are hellbent in ruining that country and any other Western country.
If the claim is that there is a shortage of talent, then simply add a fee to the process, that is roughly equivalent to a years worth of college education in the state where the job is located, for every year the H1B worker works, into a scholarship program for that industry/disipline. Facebook should jump at the chance to make college more affordable for CS majors, since they seem to need so many of them. And hey, if the student can graduate without "mortgage level" loans, they can actually afford to work for less money.
What are we going to do tonight Brain?
Thank Slashdot for putting the little white bird on a blue background icon next to spammers...
I am TheRaven on Soylent News
It's a bargaining chip in wage negotiations. "Don't ask for too much or we'll replace you with someone from overseas" is the implied argument.
If it was really about shortage then it would have gone away when layoffs added large numbers of experienced and skilled people to the pool of available employees.
The US government is for sale, and the highest bidders get what they pay for. You buy enough legislation (and legislators) and you can make anything legal.
Want to make more money in the short run by gutting STEM employment and destroying US based intellectual capitial? No problem! (Just look at IBM).
Want to pay no US taxes while you plaster US flags on your equipment? You don't even have to make the flags in the US! (Caterpillar, a proud US giant.)
It really is equal opportunity at work. You don't even have to be a US company to buy what you want.
Stop whining, it's unpatriotic. You obviously don't love the US if you can't afford to buy you own slice of the American Dream. Tata Consultancy Services is clearly a much more important American Enterprise then any of the mere citizens who do useless things like live, vote and pay taxes in the US.
It's not like there is a "Government of the People, by the People and For the People" or any other nonsense like that.
Why is Snark Required?
This is exactly why Zuck and his coven are such scum. It also proves that being filthy rich makes you more of an addict than a heroin user; you can *never* get enough money, and you'll fuck over your own fellow citizens to gain more.
Traditional outsourcing at least help India's economy. H1B is bad for americans with far less benefit for India. The solution is for poor countries to develop. Americans are crying while their bellies are full.
I am an American, but I was not born inside America. I am a naturalized American - so I think I might have something to add to this H1-B debate.
First of all, the entire H1-B scheme is ludicrous but it was a necessity, because the immigration system for America is totally fucked up.
What America needs (and what the world needs) are talents, *REAL* talents, but the American immigration laws have been fucked up, thanks to the liberals.
Now, as I have already mentioned, I am a *NATURALIZED* American citizen - which means, I also went through the official immigration channel to obtain my American citizenship. The only difference is that I got it some 30-odd years ago.
At that time, migrating to America wasn't easy - especially for non-Whites. One can say that it was "biased against the non-Whites" (if you prefer to look it that way) but what I see (and I have been through this) is that the process in that time, yes, *VERY TOUGH* for Asians, but that had a very strange side effect --- *MOST OF THE ASIANS ACCEPTED AS CITIZENS BACK IN THOSE TIMES WERE REAL TALENTS*.
And after those Asians (me included) got their citizenships, they re-invest in the American society, starting businesses or invent new stuffs - and in the process, most of the Asians who obtained citizenship created *MORE JOBS FOR THE AMERICANS* after they have become citizens.
But as I said - the immigration system has been TOTALLY FUCKED UP - and it is so bad now that if one Tom, Dick, or Harry gets his citizenship he can legally *IMPORT* an entire *CLAN* into America.
Now I am not going to talk about other races who got into America - I am a Chinese, and I will only talk about Chinese.
Last time, most Chinese I know lived in Chinatown. Most of them worked very very hard, earned enough money and they put their second / third generations through college.
Today, most of the Chinese from back then, who still stay in America are professionals. They are bankers, doctors, engineers, lawyers, business persons, and so on.
Those Chinese are in contrast with the *NEW CROP* of Chinese who are coming into America.
Most of the new crop of Chinese who are going to America are *REJECTS* from China - in a way, I was a "reject from China" too, back then, but I digress - what I am saying is this --- these Chinese coming into America are not the typical hard working type, not those who can use their body as well as they use their mind.
I have seen with my own eyes how some of the new crops of Chinese immigrants into America are doing - they are abusing the welfare system.
Last time when I first came to America, the Chinese, even the very poor ones, refused to apply for any welfare aid, because to them, "welfare" means "beggars", and those Chinese preferred to work their ass off, day after day, struggling through lives with meager wages, and *STILL* refuse to apply for any kind of welfare aid.
The new crops of the Chinese immigrants to America ? Huh !
As soon as they are eligible for *any* kind of welfare aid, they make sure they get it, because, to them, if everybody is abusing the system, and if they don't, that would be *STUPID*.
No more dignity, everything comes down to "what I can get from the system", not "what I can contribute to the system".
Do *NOT* get me wrong, though.
As bad as the *NEW CROP OF CHINESE IMMIGRANTS INTO AMERICA*, they are still rated *AMONG THE MOST EFFECTIVE IMMIGRANTS*.
Which means, no matter how much these new crops of Chinese immigrants abusing the welfare system, they still end up contributing to the system *FAR MORE* than what they got from it.
As for other groups of immigrants, I have seen worse !
I have seen Muslims who came from Morocco or Egypt or Turkey or India or one of those "stan" countries have as many as 10 children.
Yes, TEN FUCKING CHILDREN !
And they have no work.
They do not need to.
The American welfare system *PAYS THEM WELL*. With their 10 children, they got all the money they get, p
Muchas Gracias, Señor Edward Snowden !
People frequently claim in slashdot that there is no quality in 3rd world software development. The problem I see as someone living in Brazil is that outsourcing firms limit their search for people that speaks english with fluency. And there are very few people that speaks english here.
The whole concept of "they stole our jobs!" is so short sighted and stupid.
As long as skilled workers enter the country the country as a whole benefits. It does not matter if they replace local workers or not. The skilled local workers will find employment elsewhere.
Jobs are also not static, it's not like there are 100 jobs and if 12 are taken by foreigners then there are only 88 left. Thinking in these categories is just ridiculous.
Jobs are dynamic and (with a time delay) are created by supply and demand. If 12 skilled people immigrate then these 12 people will spend their wages and increase demand for other jobs. They will productively add to the economy and the country as a whole benefits.
Getting as many skilled people as possible into the country while at the same time getting rid of as many unskilled people as possible should be the goal of employment politics. Which jobs they replace and whether locals could do these or not should not at all be a factor.
That being said there are pretty good arguments against H1B, mainly the "be a slave to the company that hired you" parts of it.
The ideal solution would be a work permit for anyone with a higher income than [factor bigger than 1 times average national income], no matter where they are from. In case of job loss they have one year to find a different job which still places them high enough above the average income or they have to leave the country.
Not a nice system, but efficient and it maximises benefits to the national economy. With the added benefit of not discriminating against anyone.
At the end of the day, this is simple economics. Given the current talent pool, the market has reached a price point deemed fair. At that point, we may not use 100% of available talent, and not 100% of possible jobs may be filled, but this is the balance. If the price lowered we may see more of the resources utilized or if price increased we may see more of the jobs left unfilled.
This debate is all about introducing a new dynamic into this market. By adding to the labor pool, prices are artificially lowered and more of the jobs are filled (jobs which were not willing to pay the market rate previously). This is not unlike how illegal immigration has lowered the price point of so called low skill labor jobs and now we have a problem that citizens in that labor pool struggle to survive (though most of those jobs are filled and it results in lower priced goods).
A great parallel is the argument on the other end of the labor market that we need immigration reform to provide labor for the jobs that "Americans just won't do". Perhaps, these are simply jobs that "Americans just won't do for low pay". I suggest we let the market dictate the wages (in both tech and unskilled labor).
There are still good jobs for American tech workers, in America.
Just wait until we hit the next economic bump.
When wages really get depressed, Americans will stop studying for tech. Then US employers will point to the declining enrollment and scream that Americans are too stupid, and lazy, to study tech subject. The only answer will be to import more visa workers.
The more visa workers the US lets in, the more US workers will feel out of place in their own work environments. Then it will get easier to offshore tech jobs for even bigger savings. Then, due to technology transfer, foreign companies will take over - this is already happening in China.
If you think things are bad now, just wait for about ten years.
A good amount of management salary is based on performence/ percentage of profits and stock options
That has been blatently untrue for years as boards practice "repricing" and back-dating of these ostensible stock options http://www.nysscpa.org/cpajournal/2007/1007/perspectives/p6.htm
Those practices of making stock options into can't-lose forms of compensation haved moved them squarely out of the category of "pay for performance".
Shortages of skilled labor happen because people don't want to move to states or locations where jobs are. When company has closed it's office in Illinois and offered jobs in Kentucky not one engineer signed up to move. Some went to CA some to FL and most took a pay-cut and stayed in Illinois.
Everyone will have different reason why they didn't want to live in Kentucky but for few of my friends with kids it was school system. Businesses settle where taxes are low or where they they get most tax incentives which means states that, to keep taxes low and spend little for social services (like education, medical). And, other states are too religious for people with science degree.
Boeing was a highly sofisticated peice of software and even Ameican companies and developers have problems with that - See Lockheed and F-22: MAJOR pr,oblems and there were no H1-bs because it's a defense project.
Now as for other companies and businesses, it's a different story. I have witnessed the problems you mentioned first hand. Example, back in the Y2K days the Indian firm who was charged with fixing the date problem did so EVERYWHERE regardless if it was needed or not; meaning, they broke some code that worked.
Here's the rub - even though we had to go through and fix their screwups, it was still cost effective because of the amount of code that DID have to be changed.
I wish - really wish - I could say that the parent is 100% that offshoring is not cost effective, but the fact of the matter, for most rojects, it is. And when you consider that the norm in the software industry is to give the customer shit and fix later, there is not any reason to change.
There are hundreds of millions of smart people in this World and tens of millions of very smart people - most are very very poor. We are doomed to spiral down to the bottom - except for the people who own the businesses that arbitrage the labor - in the short term.
It was driven by groups representing medical specialists lobbying the Liberal Party and was actually against the wishes of the AMA. The person who made the decision to cut training numbers was the Minister of Health, Dr Michael Wooldridge (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Wooldridge). A bit of a "character". He got into a little bit of trouble when he redirected the funding for rural specialists into funding for a building that was to be his new workplace after he left politics and the Prime Minister (John Howard) had to step in to reverse the situation, so in the end there was nothing for him to do jail time for. He's been in up to his neck in dodgy investment schemes, may soon be banned from managing companies (the penalty hearing will begin early next year (http://www.asic.gov.au/asic/asic.nsf/byheadline/13-339MR+Prime+Trust+directors+found+to+have+breached+duties?openDocument)) and recently sold his services to the anti-windmill lobby.
Successive health ministers did not revert the training numbers back up to the earlier level until a change of government so Australia was left with a shortage of doctors that will take years to make up.
Everybody I hang with in Minnesota loves Klobuchar. She has that nerd girl with glasses look and does photo ops out bicycling with the family. Probably eats granola. Always AWOL on any serious issue where anybody might have a different view so she'd have to defend herself on a reelection, she's always present for the photo op when she brings some tax money back for a women's shelter or something. In other words, the definitional example of a pork barrel populist. My point being that people in Minnesota who consider themselves Democrats and "progressive" seem happy with her _image_, so don't expect any blow back on this _issue_. And it highlights the embarrassing point that Democrats aren't much deeper than FOX Republicans.
Lets issue another 535 H-1B visas, take the first 535 people off of the streets in New Delhi and replace congress with them.
I bet they would come to every session, special investigation, ad-hoc committee and all have perfect attendance. They would probably do a MUCH BETTER job, since there would be little in-fighting, and they would not be indebted to some controlling political group.
Just a thought...
- I live the greatest adventure anyone could possibly desire. - Tosk the Hunted
.... and we have lots of H1-B workers. I've never understood why there is a critical shortage of accounting personnel.
Americans looking for work remain unemployed.
I've always said English was my second language. Had Romeo and Juliet been written in C, I might have understood it.
It doesn't work. Pure and simple. You just kill the geese with all their golden eggs. People in the USA will simply stop working in technology, and/or studying STEM. Smart people will elect to become doctors, lawyers, business people or *anything* that generates more money.
Want a country packed with lawyers and MBAs? Keep on importing H1-Bs.
Median earnings of lawyers in the US: $113,530
Median earnings of engineering MBAs in the US: $124,870
Why wouldn't we want a country packed with people earning 6-figure incomes?
Corporate greed is what is behind this; nothing more.
The movie made AMrk look like a better person than he is.
Anecdotally I can say there are definitely legitimate vacancies US tech companies have that can't be filled by US workers.
My girlfriend being American, I looked for jobs with US companies likely to sponsor visas. I was lucky enough to get interviews and offers from two large cloud providers. I have a linux HPC sysadmin background and these were similar devops roles. Unfortunately after my immigration petitions were looked at by the firms immigration attorneys, they found I would not qualify for the visa as my education was considered vocational and my experience did not make up the difference.
In my view, the visa is a pain in the ass for a regular company and they would only go ahead if there was a real need. They need to fly me in for site interviews, pay up to $10,000 for the law firm to put together a visa, then research and pay me above the prevailing wage. And after this there is a good chance I will miss out on the lottery. All going well I wouldn't be able to start until Oct 1 anyway. Frankly, I'm surprised they bother.
Instead I may just be working from London, in the same role, where I can easily get a visa. This has the same outcome of "taking an american job", without the whole, living there, paying taxes, buying stuff.
... ComputerWorld reported that the major share of H-1B visas go to offshore outsourcing firms that use visa holders to displace U.S. workers.
I can't buy my own congressman, so I'm fighting back the only way I know how: I will never buy anything from companies such as Macy's that have outsourced their IT organizations.
The hollowing out of the middle class is part of the country's downward spiral; it must be stopped.
It's not that being filthy rich makes you into a scum
The traits of a scum just happens to be very helpful in acquiring riches.
This is the part where people jump in and say how their honest hard work has led them to success and you don't have to be a scum. And you'll be right. Look, I'm not saying nice guys finish last. I'm just saying that cheaters, gamblers, and scoundrels are usually the ones who win big. And lose big. No pain no gain. Greater risk, greater reward. etc.
Ask not, "why are the lion's share of visa quotas going to offshore companies?" Ask, "why are there visa quotas?"
America's rise to become a great nation was driven by unlimited immigration. Let everybody in. Everybody.
The argument about local workers being displaced aside...its a slap in the face for foreign workers who can't get an H1B and are actually the original target audience for those visas.
I have friends who Canada with credentials up the wazoo, who have been working on TN1 visas for a bit, and want something more permanent. Those are 150-300k/year jobs (lead software engineers and architects) that aren't easy to fill outside of California.
And they have to hit the lottery like anyone else, and more likely than not they won't get their H1B...and so they have to stick with TN or looking for an american to marry =P
Not cool.
As someone who's worked closely with Cargill's internal IT before:
Normally I'm all against shuttling IT jobs offshore, but Cargill's internal IT is well known to be terrible. It takes those imbeciles 4-5 weeks for a damn firewall change. Projects that they should have been able to handle have had to been given to other (US) vendors. This isn't a small company IT group that needs to outsource to deal with some strange and rare technology like MS Project Server or Lync. This is the largest privately held company in the US. Cargill is looking for a large company that can do efficient deployment of things like datacenters, trunk lines, and servers without given them the runaround. While they probably won't get this from a second rate Indian IT H1B Visa hostage firm, they definitely won't get it from their internal IT.
Why doesn't Zuckerberg take what amounts to beer money for him and give out a few hundred full four-year scholarships for STEM programs to native-born Americans? He could take the interest alone (at 1%) for one year on his net worth and foot the bill for probably a thousand students.
The real problem with H1B is not that it is given to too many off-shorers, but that it makes the process difficult for legitimate candidates. Let's consider a hypothetical/fictional Xiao from China, graduated at the top of her class from one of the best schools in China. Moved to the US and got a PhD from a top 20 school. What is the path for her if she chooses to work in the industry? She is lumped with offshorers into the H1B category, albeit in the pool of 20k 'higher education' visas. But hey, the 20k is too small a number. There are always more candidates than 20k. She goes through the 'random selection' scheme and may or may not get the visa. What's hurting her through the process is how conversations are hijacked by claims of "too many visas for off-shorers". What about legitimately qualified, American educated aliens who are hired because their domain knowledge and skill-set makes them indispensable for their company? It is unfortunate that such problems with the H1B are glossed over with blanket claims of "too many off-shoring visas!" There are additional problems like the spouse of the H1B employee not being allowed to work, etc.
The grouse is not limited to 'off-shoring' vs. PhD. Taking it further, if there is a world expert in say, SAP that a company wants to hire, irrespective of whether they are a MS or a PhD or whether they were educated in the US or not, the person still has to go through the flawed H1B visa process (granted, L1 is an option in certain cases, but it's scope is quite narrow).
These are the actual problems with the H1B visa system- the genuine talent that has to suffer independent whether off-shoring beneficiaries are gaming the system.
Taking it further, there is the draconian process of obtaining employment-based green cards. Admittedly, this is a bit easier for certain people with PhD degrees. However, candidates with American or foreign undergraduate or masters education with indispensable skill sets also suffer.
1 - Bangalore is not in Asia.
Well okay, but I'm only listening to your other two points because you clearly know the details of your subject.
Facebook's Wealth Demands Unlimited Slaves
"When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
I see how this is insightful, but rather racist
I just do not understand you guys anymore.
Why are you guys looking at things at the *RACE* level instead of the level of what the American society REALLY NEEDS ?
As I have told you guys I am a Chinese, I used the experiences of the Chinese community in America as an example.
Is that "racist" to you ?
Furthermore, when I talk about the danger American society will face in the future because of the infiltration of hundreds of thousands, if not millions of those who subscribe to the "Infidel must convert or die" ideology - I am *NOT* talking about any *ONE RACE*.
Geeesh, guys/gals ! Please gimme a very BIG fucking break !!
Muchas Gracias, Señor Edward Snowden !
... is no talent at all.
We *MUST* look at this matter at the level of *WHAT AMERICA NEEDS* and not what kind of talents that we might lose if we do not allow them to import the entire clan with him/her...
Even a primary school child can tell you that if you have to sacrifice so much for ONE thing that ONE thing must be more valuable than all the sacrifice you have put forth.
By importing an entire of his clan into America - that "talent" better be 100 times more smarter than Einstein, and if he/she is not, then, we can do with that that individual.
That is all to it.
Muchas Gracias, Señor Edward Snowden !
You bitched and whined and said everything is fucked up but you didn't say how to fix it?
OK so let me help you with that:
You have three choices:
1. Leave things the way they are. End result: chain immigration of brothers, sisters, parents without regard for talent and no easy way for talent to get in except a massive flow of Indians (because Tata et al won't sponsor anybody but Indians and they have all the visas). Also any talent that does get in is squelched because they are at the mercy of the H1B employer because they can't work for anybody else and have no right to stay after the visa finishes.
2. "Fix it" by banning immigration entirely. Then you will only end up with wives and children coming in. Better than the way it is today by not allowing massive flow of idiots but worse because no actual talent can get in unless your spouse is talented.
3. Fix it by rejigging the system to favor talented individuals. The easiest way to do that is a points based system like all the other progressive English speaking countries have. Canada has it, Australia has it, New Zealand has it, heck even the UK has it. The points required to enter could be adjusted from time to time to fit the needs. Dropped in the good times and raised in the bad times.
H1B is supposed to be a last resport when you don't find a US worker that can do the same work but has to go abroad. This is when companies like google or MS etc hires somebody how is really sharp -- this is how Linus came over to the US.
When Infosys, Tata and Cognizant gets 15000+ H1B visas it's a simple way for them to get very cheap labour which they can rent out to US companies and low cost still makeing huge profits on each contractor. It's no coinsident that all three of them are Indian based companies, emplying cheap indian labour. H1B going to Infosys, Tata and Cognizant and abosolute nothing to do shortage of talent in the US period!
Maybe it is time for American companies to hire Canadian (and Mexican) high tech workers with NAFTA TN-1. There is no quotas restrictions with NAFTA TN-1 plus it is easier for Canadian, American and Mexican whose jobs is listed under NAFTA to get TN-1 work visa.
How about slowing down these Visas and hiring the mass amounts of students graduating school with large debt loads and put them to work rather then having them work at Wal-Mart
Slaveowners have reciprocal obligations to slaves. They must feed, clothe, and house their slaves, they must provide their slaves with medical care, all of this even if their slaves get injured and can no longer work.
They would much prefer an arrangement where they extract the most work for the smallest price and have no further obligations.
Paying a wage under the table to an illegal alien or a legal alien who has a visa to work for your firm is the best arrangement an employer could possibly ask for.
Take a look at the history of technology over the last 150 years.
It is absolutely no contest what-so-ever. USA absolutely slams India, and easily holds it's own against anybody else.
Funny how such stupid, lazy, people can do that - especially in computer technology. When it comes to computer technology, practically every major innovation has come from the west, with the USA way out-innovating everybody else. Look at the major tech companies: Apple, Microsoft, Cisco, HP, IBM, Intel, and so on down the list, how many were started in India?
So-called "technology companies" in India are just staffing companies. Any actual technology they have, they bought.
I am not saying that people in other countries are not smart, or hard working. But mountains of evidence clearly show that Americans are no slouches either.
Why do people consistently forget that there are two kinds of H1-Bs and mix them up in the same context all the time.
You have the 65,000 for the foreign workers.
And there is the 20,000 for U.S. educated graduate students.
Facebook, MSFT, Google, etc want the U.S. educated foreigners. They are usually better and are better to work with because they have had 1.5 to 5 years of acclimatization. The 65,000? Run hard if it's one in the 65,000 who also got a U.S. MBA, which just reinforces their "I deserve this" attitude, plundering jobs from the U.S. while hiring more H1-Bs.
We can do without the 65,000.
And even 20,000 might be too much. That's the number of student enrolled in 8 elite Ivy league schools, combined, each year. source
> My God are Americans lazy. Show up at 8:45... leave at 4:15... hour and half lunch
Funny about the articles claiming that programmers are being forced to work 80 to 110 hours a week - and for no overtime pay. I guess all those articles are outright lies, right?
Funny that Sillie Vally execs got a law passed stating that tech workers - just tech workers - do not get OT pay ever. Why lobbie for such a law, when US developers are only working six hour days?
BTW: I have worked in IT for over 30 years, I have worked for over a dozen companies, as well as the federal government. I have never seen the type of situation that you describe. Never - not once.
I wish there was a better organization to fight against the visa worker scam, but I don't think there is.
NumbersUSA is about 90% dedicated to fighting illegal immigration from Mexico, and about 10% dedicated to fighting against the visa worker scam. But, they do more than any other organization that I am aware of.
In DC: money talks and BS walks. Techies need to organize, and raise enough money to lobbie congress. Like it, or not, that is how things get done in the USA.
2) India alone has 4X the US population, and China has 5X times the US population, and the US already has an unsustainable number of immigrants from Mexico. Clearly, we cannot let in everybody in the world who wants to live here.
3) US students, and workers, are going to eventually ask: "why bother studying tech, or working in tech, when there is no way to compete with 3rd world wages." When that happens, the US loses it's technology edge, and that will lead to an economic nose dive.
4) Other countries will learn our technologies, and use that knowledge to create their own companies. When they have the trained workers, and they have the technology, then who needs the USA? This is already happening in China.
5) The overwhelming number of immigrants are not great scientists, or engineers. In fact, a huge number of welfare recipients. During earlier immigration waves, we were not a welfare state. Now about 47% of the population get some kind of government assistance.
6) The techie visa workers, are usually no great scientists, or engineers either. They are just the grunts of the tech world. We already have the O-1 visa for the truly gifted.
I'm looking to leave the USA, it's too fucked-up here. Seems everyone want programmers and they are starting to make it easier for us to immigrate.
If Cargill does not hire correctly, or manage correctly, that should be their problem. It is not fair to blame their bad management on all US tech workers.
I have worked in IT for over 30 years. I can tell you that there are plenty of competent, and hard working, US techies.
That has been proved over, and over again.
Even if there were not enough US workers, all you would have to do is create good jobs, and you could be 100% certain that US workers would train for those jobs. No shortage of US students competing for med school.
They find someone in the district, and are required to serve for some amount of time.
In addition, what we have seen is the wholesale undermining of one facet of production - i.e. labor. When labor becomes a unit of focus for reduction, it reduces the size of the consuming public. ..."That is the nature of a system. Unintended consequences result from too narrow a focus on a single subsystem. In this case wages, taken in isolation. Context in systems matter. Reducing wages has local and systemic impacts. Balance matters. Don’t undermine the social safety net at the same time you lower wages unless you want to create a larger underclass. Many people today never thought that they would fall into that underclass. Maybe, eventually, even you." (this quote taken from a comment in a forum on the impact of robots, from the website Naked Capitalism - it's apropos, because importing more H1-Bs is just one more step to eliminating labor as an equation, in production. http://www.nakedcapitalism.com...
What's galling is that Mark Zuckerberg continues to be a focus of accolades, but his FWD.us PAC represents Zuckerberg, yet again, as the sleaze that he shamelessly continues to prove he has always been. I know it's untoward to attribute unflattering adjectives to someone whom one disagrees with, but Zuckerberg continues to show how two-faced, lying, and hypocritical he really is. I wonder where he sits on a sociopathy scale. How is it that this guy and the groups that support his FWD.us shenanigans (re: the H1-B issue) are considered honorable, given their blatant distortions around the issue of (i.e. their outright lies about) the non-existant shortage of STEM workers in America.
Sure, this may have helped some H1-Bs improve their lot, but it has also helped to decimate the lives of many individuals that get aced out of work by H1-B workers who are not as qualified to do the work. Go ask anyone who has worked with H1-Bs in quantity. By and large, the quality isn't there; the curiosity isn't there; the talent isn't there; and, oddly, the so-called "education" isn't there, because H1-Bs regularly distort their qualifications.
In fact, the Indian government helps in this distortion game because it's too corrupt to find genuine ways to expand opportunity in India. The whole thing stinks, from corrupt Indian politicians, the Zuckerberg's lying, smiling persona, to the corrupt corporate executives and American legislators that continue to game the American worker, and American middle class.
Judging from the outsourcing job that's been done on my company, the motivating philosophy behind it is that, with enough formalization of the 'process', all work is grunt work. This is horribly untrue. The Indian outsourcers that got all our software dev jobs are pretty good at process. The problem is they're really bad at actually programming. And the turnover is horrendous. Apparently they think that training developers to work on a large, complex system is also just a 'process'. Problem is, they're not very good at that one.
Posted from my Android phone. Oh, I can change this? There, that's better...
H1Bs encourage foreigners to come to America, take what they can get, and leave. The only Americans that benefit are the corporate elite, and even they will only benefit in the short term. Eventually foreign corporations, started using U.S.-derived IP brought home, will take over if the U.S. keep up this practice. Then the corporate elite will fall as well, but they are too blinded by greed to see it. America will become a country of bankers and lawyers, professions that to nothing for the advancement of society.
We should only allow people to work in the U.S. if they are ready to renounce citizenship to their home country and become a citizen of the U.S.
There shouldn't be any H1-B visa for programmers. There are tens of thousands of computer science grads and unemployed programmers looking for jobs. Until their unemployment rate reaches 3% we shouldn't be bringing in programmers. I also don't want to hear Americans don't have the required skill sets because all of that is BS.
Obama didn't cause it- he's trying to cure it! He wants a cure for everyone's erectile dysfunction, even if they don't have penises. Broken, Broken, Broken!
She is ready to step on your neck, as long as there's some good campaign donations in it. A quivering authoritarian, that thinks that the punishment should be far more than the crime.
Felony for watching a copyrighted stream? She sponsored it, and many others.
She's on the wrong side of every tax, IP, or liberty issue, and she's a scourge on Minnesota.
Instead of stopping reading the post because of a point you don't agree with, why not read all the post and perhaps learn something from a differing point of view. Your smarmy comment of "erectile dysfunction" adds nothing to the conversation and only points you out to be a closed minded person - just as you accuse the poster.
People have a right to live work and pay taxes where they please, to sell any good or service to anyone, and to buy any good or service from anyone, at any agreed price. NO ONE nor ALL PEOPLE have the right or the power to prevent or limit or regulate it.
If this behavior gos unchecked it is only a matter of time until the whole country falls Nothing stays up without legs.
They can start with the CEO's, who are the most globally uncompetitive. ... go to Canada and get a CEO for about 5% the cost of a US one.
With US CDOs you're not paying for work. You're paying for being politically connected. This is mainly connections to financing sources - the closer to the FED, the more financing you can get and the less you pay for it. But it's also about being able to influence governnent policy and lawmaking. There's also being able to recruit people for other executive suite positions. Then there's managing news coverage: Setting stock market expectations so you can continually exceed them, not getting smeared, getting publicity that encoruages people to buy the product rather than trash the company, and so on.
Actually running the company comes in maybe fourth or lower.
Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
How much more? When will the House stop these Billionare Entitlements that Zuckerberg, and Tata throw in our faces?
I've had to deal with code written by Tata contractors. It and the code written by their competitors BFL (aka butt-fucking losers), Cognizant(sp?) and Mphasis is absolute shit. They will try to scam you into believing that a project takes 30 days to complete when in reality a local developer can do the damn thing in 30 minutes. I cannot comprehend why management at companies around the world continue to hire these clowns.
That means any exports that have an imported component are at a disadvantage in comparison with other places. Protectionism is a blunt instrument that hurts while it is trying to help.
Are you guys starting to get the point that successful governments tend to feed across a wide range of an economy instead of hitting one area hard and killing the golden goose?
In short, the xenophobes (bigots) were right all along. Don't be ashamed to tell the truth even thought it may make you unemployable.
If you meet anybody from India ask him "What Is Your Caste?" If he answers it, then you're doomed. Because he has already injected Cancer into your society. Caste is like Cancer. It cannot be Cured. It has to be Cut-Off.
Your "chinese" friends must be from Hongkong.
The Hongkies fit your description to a "T".
Whenever they see a white-skin people, they bow. They kiss the earth the white foot stepped on. The worship their "White God".
They have to. They have been brainwashed in thinking that the Whites are SUPERIOR. They were under the rule of the Brits for a full century.
'nuff said.
Not a scam. There are bad eggs everywhere, and no doubt there are companies that abuse the system. HOWEVER, accepting an H1-B position at a lower salary than US Person (citizen or permanent resident) peers is more than reasonable. After all, you are trading some salary for the privilege of a path to Permanent Residency and eventually citizenship. US Persons hire on with bad companies all the time. If you're being abused by your hiring company, sue the bums; the bigger the company, the higher the odds of getting a firm to take on your case with payment out of damages. But don't whine about lower salary. It's part of the deal with most companies - and it's a deal in which zillions of your peers back home would LOVE to replace you.
So these guys work for 6 years and then get a green card. Do all of the people working for their green card feel scammed? Or are they happy when they fnally get their green card? The real solution to the problem is to not use foreign labour at all but instead to invest in our own people to do these jobs and then start exporting the output of the industry to other countries. But hey, that would be too simple, so let's exploit Indian's and fail to invest in our own citizens. Let's see where it gets us 20 years from now when the only expertise we have left is in lining up at the benefits office.