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Vintage 1960s Era Film Shows IRS Defending Its Use of Computers

coondoggie (973519) writes "It's impossible to imagine the Internal Revenue Service or most other number-crunching agencies or companies working without computers. But when the IRS went to computers — the Automatic Data Processing system --there was an uproar. The agency went so far as to produce a short film on the topic called Right On The Button, to convince the public computers were a good thing."

32 of 146 comments (clear)

  1. Uproar? by BitterOak · · Score: 2

    What was the uproar about actually? Were people afraid the computers would make mistakes and overcharge them or what?

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    1. Re:Uproar? by Darinbob · · Score: 4, Funny

      This party sadly came true.

    2. Re:Uproar? by SuperKendall · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The uproar was that with computers long term storage the IRS could do things like make you pay taxes on something your parents did 60 years ago, or use the power of tagging to harass specific organizations based on political leanings. What absurd notions those people of ancient times had!

      Chuckle.

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    3. Re:Uproar? by ChrisKnight · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The 70's are full of TV shows that had evil computer episodes. The plot would revolve around a billing error, and when the protagonist would bring it up with the store they would be told that computers don't make mistakes. Then they would trigger an error in their favor, and comedy would ensue. Partridge family, Eight is Enough, and I think the Brady Bunch. Those are the easy ones that come to mind.

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    4. Re:Uproar? by Tablizer · · Score: 2, Insightful

      ...[fear computers would] use the power of tagging to harass specific organizations based on political leanings. What absurd notions those people of ancient times had!

      To confuse computers with Democrats, how silly ;-)

    5. Re:Uproar? by im_thatoneguy · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Probably the same thing that spurs paranoia about automated taxes today. The government knows enough about us that they could easily auto-file/fill our forms every year but people are afraid of admitting how much is known about us.

      http://www.slate.com/blogs/mon...

    6. Re:Uproar? by DNS-and-BIND · · Score: 4, Interesting

      These attitudes persist today. A man used an ATM outside a bank, and the machine made noise but no money came out. His receipt indicated money had been withdrawn from his account, so he used his mobile phone to call the bank and report the problem. He was told there was nothing they could do, could not send anyone to look, etc. He then hung up and called back, reporting that the ATM had spit out too much money. A bank executive and repairman were on the scene in less than five minutes.

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    7. Re:Uproar? by LordLimecat · · Score: 4, Funny

      A bank executive... was on the scene in five minutes.

      Sounds legit. I know if I were a bank executive, Id be hanging out near my ATMs just in case "the people" needed me, like some sort of financial batman.

    8. Re:Uproar? by CodeBuster · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The IRS doesn't want to pre-populate your tax forms, aside from lobbying by self interested tax preparation firms like Intuit or H&R Block, because (1) it might be construed as an "official" invoice of what was owed and therefore "complete and correct" and (2) it might serve to tip off potential tax cheats as to what the IRS does and does not know about their income. The IRS enjoys certain advantages from forcing citizens to fill out the forms themselves, under penalty of law for failure to report, and remaining cagey about what they do and don't know to discourage cheating. It's similar in concept to the panopticon. You know that they could be watching anyone and anything at anytime even if they cannot as a practical matter watch everyone and everything all of the time. Because taxpayers are kept in the dark with regard to what the IRS knows about their income, they behave as if the IRS knows everything and that everyone and everything is being watched all of the time. This panopticon effect magnifies the effectiveness of limited IRS auditing and investigative resources because many people behave themselves, even though they aren't being given special attention, merely because they fear what will happen if the IRS does catch them in a deliberate lie.

    9. Re:Uproar? by oobayly · · Score: 3, Informative

      Reminds me of another joke:
      A man wakes up to the noise of a burglar in his garden shed, so he calls the police who tell him there's nobody available to respond. He hangs up, waits a minute and then calls the police and tells them "don't worry about the burglar, I've shot him". Very soon, the multiple police cars turn up and are able to catch the burglar in the act. A policeman accusingly says to the man "you said you shot him", he replies "you said nobody was available".

    10. Re:Uproar? by BanHammor · · Score: 2

      whooosh?

    11. Re:Uproar? by K.+S.+Kyosuke · · Score: 2

      Were people afraid the computers would make mistakes and overcharge them or what?

      They were afraid that the computer will send them a bill asking them to either pay $0.00 or to go directly to jail.

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    12. Re:Uproar? by K.+S.+Kyosuke · · Score: 2

      That makes me wonder...if I'm already putting my heart and my soul into my work, is that tax-deductible?

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      Ezekiel 23:20
    13. Re:Uproar? by BiIl_the_Engineer · · Score: 2

      you can't turn 50000 steelworkers and car makers into coders in the space of a year.

      Most likely, you can't turn most of them into *good* coders at all; that takes intelligence and aptitude that most people don't have.

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  2. Context? by MikeBabcock · · Score: 2

    What else would the public be familiar with computers doing in the late 50's that would help them have context for this decision?

    It seems to me that the computer was still an unknown entity to most people at the time.

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    1. Re:Context? by JustOK · · Score: 3, Funny

      Yah totally. We was still in amazement of the printing press! Now computers!

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  3. Original Source by nmb3000 · · Score: 5, Informative

    For those not interested in helping useless middle-man ad farms, here's the original source on the National Archives website (including the YouTube video):

    How Computers Changed the Tax Game

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    /)
  4. "Feel Like a Number" by chriswaco · · Score: 4, Insightful

    People were afraid of being treated like numbers rather than human beings. It was a very different era.

    1. Re:"Feel Like a Number" by PPH · · Score: 4, Funny

      Thank goodness that never came to be, #37809.

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    2. Re:"Feel Like a Number" by techno-vampire · · Score: 2

      "I am not a number, I am a free man!" Not any more, you're not!

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    3. Re:"Feel Like a Number" by swb · · Score: 3, Funny

      "I am not a man, I am a free number!"

  5. Computers are a passing fad by jfdavis668 · · Score: 4, Funny

    They will go away in a few years.

  6. I guess they were wrong by slashmydots · · Score: 3, Insightful

    If you're about to say they were correct, hold on a minute. Without the aide of computers, the tax laws wouldn't be this complicated. No human could ever interpret and correctly follow tax law as it sits right now. So all these computers caused it to grow completely insane and waste small business owner's time.

    1. Re:I guess they were wrong by El+Puerco+Loco · · Score: 2

      That's a load of crap. Give one example of computers interpreting tax law. Fact is the tax code is pretty simple for the vast majority of individuals and small businesses. It does become complicated for big business, largely as a result of all the arcane loopholes and exemptions those businesses themselves had written into the tax code. Most tax "reformers" want to simplify the tax code by simply doing away with taxes on big businesses and as a result there would be no need for all the associated complications.

    2. Re:I guess they were wrong by Artifakt · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I do taxes professionally for part of my income, and it's a mix of personal or estate returns and corps, up to a couple of companies with 500+ full time employees.
      The tax code is pretty simple for many people, but I certainly would not say the vast majority of either individuals or small businesses. I can make quick, easy money by examining a few typical returns done on a free website or $ 39 software. About 6 out of 10 will have done something wrong or missed something entirely. That's higher than the industry average reported (which is about 33%), but I'm presorting by cases where the person has either a schedule D, E, or F, or got a K1. I could probably find significant mistakes on 45% or so of the self filed Schedule A's or EITC forms out there, but those are usually dealt with by people who have only been with the firm I work for for a few years before I ever see them.
      Three mistakes I see that can have extreme consequences are:
      1. people filing schedule E for rental property and thinking amortizing the property is optional (yes, it is technically optional as the tax code is phrased, but if you don't do it, the law wiill treat it as if you did, and 'recover' some of the money you never got in the first place. when you sell the property - it's 'optional' in the same sense as a parachute is optional in skydiving). I also see the vast majority of people who have other things than rent to report on an E (authorial royalties, natural gas wells, and such), have absolutely no idea what to do.
      2. people filing a schedule D for sale of stock. The minor mistake about 50% of the self filers make is to spend up to 30 hours or so filling in tons of individual lines for each transaction - almost nobody who isn't a pro knows how to report groups of transactions the way the IRS wants, and the personal software will gladly let you type in every single entry from a typical 15 page brokerage statement manually if you want. By they way, I have heard from IRS agents that going to all this extra trouble increases your chance of an audit - they figure that anybody giving them all those details just might be trying to hide something among them. The major mistake is not knowing the difference between long term and short term and/or covered and non-covered transactions, and all those things that are not sales of stocks but involve capital gains and so get reported with stocks. And I have never, ever, not once in my career, seen a case where someone got a K-1 that led to an entry on schedule D, and they got it right filing with Turbo-tax or similar.
      3. Schedule C for self employed income. I see people getting a 1099-Misc with some other box than 7 filled in and thinking they have to do a C, all the time. I also see young people who get paid with a 1099 that does require Schedule C for the first time and think it's basically just like a W2 and report it that way. In both cases, this puts the person in a mess immediately, because if self employment taxes get done wrongly that means the IRS and the Social Security administration both have issues with the filer, and any corrections have to propagate to both agencies before it is really fixed. I've seen way too many cases where someone spends months or even years paying off their self employment taxes, gets straight with the IRS, and then 5 years later the person gets injured, needs to collect disability and, finds out they never got credit with the Social Security Administration for working some years, and so are considered not elligibile. But the biggest mistake I see on Sched C is people claiming meals when they don't travel outside their local area or entertain clients - that happens way more often with young people new to the construction industry, than most people think, and the IRS treats every case like the taxpayer is a con artist and couldn't possibly be really that stupid. (And there's no polite way to put it, but a lot of these people are). The IRS also tends to treat this error as though the taxpayer thinks the IRS agent

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    3. Re:I guess they were wrong by leonardluen · · Score: 2

      so...to paraphrase, what you are saying is that tax law is excessively more complex than it needs to be and should be simplified greatly.

      i mean no offense to you, but taxes should be simple enough so that people like you aren't needed for the majority of people to complete their taxes. and for that matter tax software shouldn't be needed either.

  7. This was NOT about people fearing computers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

    This was the era of excitement about supersonic flight, men flying into space on rockets, and so on. The fear was NOT about circuit boards and software (or vacuum tubes and relays and patch panels), but rather about POWER and CONTROL. People were worried about giving more power to the one part of the US government that, by DESIGN, considers itself above the Constitution and insists the people have no rights.

    People were concerned that this would further de-humanize things and further encourage the government to think of the citizens as numbered parts in a machine rather than free people in charge of their government. If you are a free person, the government answers to you, but if the government assigns you a part number, you are just a gear in the machine.... the government that stamped a number on you is clearly your master. When Social Security was created, one of the things critics warned about wasd that the "account number" assigned to each person would, over time, become a citizen ID number that would be used to track people and control and regulate them. The critics were called loony, and the people pushing Social Security made it illegal for the numbers to be used for anything but Social Security (a typical fake big-government advocates like to use to pass bad policy). Years later, government removed the prohibition, justifying the action by pointing out the savings in money and bureaucracy if all of government could use the same unique number for citizen ID. Now, after decades, no American citizen can vote, bank, get a job, etc without having a "Social Security Number" (citizen ID number? part number?) and a person's entire life can be turned upside-down if somebody else starts using that number. The critics who predicted bad side effects of such a system and its assigned citizen numbers, as loud as they were, actually under-predicted what would happen.

    This was also a further exposure of the basic lies that were used to create the IRS and the tax system in the first place. When the income tax was first instituted (as a temporary tax to fund a war) the politicians in Washington DC insisted that the tax would only apply to the rich and it would only take 1% of their income. By computerizing the IRS, the government was essentially admitting the lies and preparing to analyze, monitor, and tax the formerly-free people of the United States like never before. Back when the income tax began, people who warned that it would gradually evolve into a tax on everybody and it would inevitably rise to something really outrageous like 5% were denounced and ridiculed. As is so often the case, the politicians pushing thier big new policy were the real liars and the people who sounded like chicken little with their warnings about inevitable growth were in fact not only right but they actually underestimated how bad it would be. The income tax eventually went over 90% for the rich (who bought lobbyists and politicians and got lots of "loopholes" and never actually PAID those rates) and plenty of middle-class pay over 15% (THEY cannot afford to buy politicians to get their own "loopholes").

    There's a pattern here for those who care to notice it. The people who keep warning about growing government control over individuals are more-often right than the meat puppets of the growing BigBusiness-BigGovernment enterprise who generally lie to get their way. In 1961, WWII (with Hitler's Germany and Imperial Japan) was fresh in the public memory and Nikita Khrushchev was threatening the west with his Soviet military, so Americans were much more worried about the down-side of big government's potential to number people, treat them as things, and then use them.

  8. Were The People Wrong? by LifesABeach · · Score: 2

    When one looks at the use of Offshoring, and Entitlements for Hedge Fund Mangers, Oil Companies, and Tax Havens. One is compelled to ask, "when is enough, enough?"

  9. Re:Excuse me? by drkim · · Score: 2, Informative

    We all know we only have computers because of NASA and space. Although computers can be used to add and subtract vast reams of numbers, back then governments and corporations were too stupid to see this. Only though space exploration do we have the computers we have today. Charles Babbage? Konrad Zuse? All lies. There were no computers before about 1961.

    Alan Turing 1941?
    John von Neumann?
    ENIAC 1948?
    Anything?
    No?

  10. Computers have not made the IRS more efficient. by aberglas · · Score: 2

    The amazing thing is that the IRS today is no more efficient then it was in the 1950s before any computerization.

    Certainly in 2007 the Australian tax office's internal budget was AU$11.4 billion, or 1.23% of GDP. In 1955 it performed essentially the same task without automation for A£66.7 million which was 1.33% of the 1955 GDP. The difference is not statistically significant. (Normalizing by GDP (essentially the sum of everyone's earnings) accounts for the growing population and inflation.) US figures will show a similar effect.

    The only effect of computerization has been to enable the rules and regulations that govern us to become an order of magnitude more complex.

    See below for the sad details. http://berglas.org/Articles/ImportantThatSoftwareFails/ImportantThatSoftwareFails.html

  11. Re:Excuse me? by The123king · · Score: 2

    Pretty sure the only reason we have computers is because they're so good at working out ballistic trajectories. Oh, and of course the Lorenz cypher.

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  12. Anecdote: you're wrong about the IRS... by mmell · · Score: 3, Interesting
    They caught me in 1983 for failing to file taxes in 1979. Long story short - I told the IRS auditor that I hadn't filed because my income was less than five thousand dollars and I believed with such a small income that year I didn't have to. Dopey me!

    Turns out I was due a two hundred dollar refund that year. The IRS had a check in my hand within a month for over three hundred dollars - even though the error was entirely mine, my money earned interest while in the government's coffers. Upon detecting my error, the IRS promptly corrected the situation in accordance with their rules.

    A tiny, anecdotal example: but I have to say that the IRS is, on the whole, honest. What they do may (IMHO) be offensive, but the agency itself is merely an aspect of the current US Government. It is not inherently good or evil by itself. Closing caveat - this is a personal anecdote, your mileage may vary, past performance should not be taken as an indicator for future performance, etc.