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Ask Slashdot: Practical Alternatives To Systemd?
First time accepted submitter systemDead (3645325) writes "I looked mostly with disinterest at Debian's decision last February to switch to
systemd as the default init system for their future operating system releases. The Debian GNU/Linux distribution is, after all, famous for allowing users greater freedom to choose what system components they want to install. This appeared to be the case with the init system, given the presence of packages such as sysvinit-core, upstart, and even openrc as alternatives to systemd.
Unfortunately, while still theoretically possible, installing an alternative init system means doing without a number of useful, even essential system programs. By design, systemd appears to be a full-blown everything-including-the-kitchen-sink solution to the relatively simple problem of starting up a Unix-like system. Systemd, for example, is a hard-coded dependency for installing Network Manager, probably the most user-friendly way for a desktop Linux system to connect to a wireless or wired network. Just this week, I woke up to find out that systemd had become a dependency for running PolicyKit, the suite of programs responsible for user privileges and permissions in a typical Linux desktop.
I was able to replace Network Manager with connman, a lightweight program originally developed for mobile devices. But with systemd infecting even the PolicyKit framework, I find myself faced with a dilemma. Should I just let systemd take over my entire system, or should I retreat to my old terminal-based computing in the hope that the horde of the systemDead don't take over the Linux kernel itself?
What are your plans for working with or working around systemd? Are there any mainstream GNU/Linux distros that haven't adopted and have no plans of migrating to systemd? Or is migrating to one of the bigger BSD systems the better and more future-proof solution?"
Unfortunately, while still theoretically possible, installing an alternative init system means doing without a number of useful, even essential system programs. By design, systemd appears to be a full-blown everything-including-the-kitchen-sink solution to the relatively simple problem of starting up a Unix-like system. Systemd, for example, is a hard-coded dependency for installing Network Manager, probably the most user-friendly way for a desktop Linux system to connect to a wireless or wired network. Just this week, I woke up to find out that systemd had become a dependency for running PolicyKit, the suite of programs responsible for user privileges and permissions in a typical Linux desktop.
I was able to replace Network Manager with connman, a lightweight program originally developed for mobile devices. But with systemd infecting even the PolicyKit framework, I find myself faced with a dilemma. Should I just let systemd take over my entire system, or should I retreat to my old terminal-based computing in the hope that the horde of the systemDead don't take over the Linux kernel itself?
What are your plans for working with or working around systemd? Are there any mainstream GNU/Linux distros that haven't adopted and have no plans of migrating to systemd? Or is migrating to one of the bigger BSD systems the better and more future-proof solution?"
PolicyKit specifically can be compiled to use consolekit instead of systemd for session tracking (this is actually the default, you have to explicitly compile policykit with systemd support).
Unfortunately this is kind of the downside to binary based package management. Either PolicyKit has to be modified to support both as configurable options, probably involving a maze of symlinks and wrapper scripts, or separate policykit-systemd and policykit-consolekit packages have to be provided.
If Debian has decided to to go with systemd, this is probably going to be a common issue on that distro, as when given the option of compiling something with it, they probably will.
Aside from joining us over on the gentoo side (open-rc is life but using something else is easier as it's just a use flag for most packages), or maintaining your own sizable collection of custom-built packages, don't know what to tell you!
I wish people who wanted windows would just stick to windows instead of infecting linux
It isn't just the boot. Lennart now calls it "Core OS" and he means it. NetworkManager was crap, admit it. After years it still couldn't do everything the software it replaced did but it no longer matters. Latest systemd now even nukes it and replaces it with a all new Core OS replacement that won't work. Which is part of the pattern of destruction that defines Pottering's way of working. PulseAudio is still mostly broken and that was his first project that got any widespread attention. Guy is leaving a trail of destruction wherever he goes and for some strage reason he being allowed to go everywhere.
Wow....someone asks what they can do about having a software package shoved down there throat and your response is just open wide and swallow? I thought this was supposed to be about freedom. Wait, GNU/Linux is about freedom, as long as it's what they want you to do....
On a more serious note, any software that wants UNIX compatibility will keep supporting SystemV/BSD init. I get the distinct feeling that Oracle and especially the BSD guys don't want anything to do with systemD.
I'm starting to think GNU is the problem with "GNU/Linux" these days.
Your immediate recourse is, indeed, to try and sample the *BSD offerings. Their rc.conf approach I find a lot simpler to deal with than sysv's kludgy linkfarming ever was. It works very well without imposing all sorts of requirements on the rest of the system.
But the problem is political, and so the solution isn't technical. On the political side, I'm highly annoyed by the approach that resulted in this damage, but it's actually endemic in the linux world: Identify problem, then go berserk on the over-re-design-engineering like you're deliberately aiming for a strong case of second-system effect. One (and my pet-) example is the "better replacements" to their broken ifconfig, incompatible with everyone else (and three mutually incompatible attempts down the road there's no end in sight), but there are many more. The latest batch just have taken the previous failures to new heights of technically working incompetence.
What is new-ish is that the damage is spreading, in the sense that by design systemd is linux-only yet now various programs that previously worked on Unix in general are starting to depend on it. Apparently a certain bunch of influential people in the linux-sphere want to become their own vendor-lock-in-enabled bubble, to be the next redmond. This is... not good.
There really is very little recourse other than starting your own lobby war to stop the bunch. Because the problem is mostly politican, the technical side is but a symptom, almost a sideshow.
Without political pressure, soon linux will be akin to macosx, except with poorer code quality and less unified design: Technically some Unix-heritage, in practice it's its own thing, incompatible with the world. So if you'd like a Unix, your route is to *BSD. If not, you can stay and put up with the slowly mounting pile of crap of which systemd is but one thing, if possibly a tipping point-inducing thing. The *BSD people will still have to find some sort of answer, and soon, or they'll have to decide that everything depending on systemd+friends will be a lost cause anyhow and find alternative software with similar functionality, for the current crop no longer works outside of this brave new linux.
If you really must avoid systemd, then Slackware is probably the way to go. Alternatively, FreeBSD/PC-BSD are prettly much safe from ever getting systemd. For now you could stick with Debian Stable or Ubuntu LTS, both of them will run for years on the older init systems. So, really, you are pretty safe from systemd for at least three to five years, even in the Debian/Ubuntu corner of the Linux ecosystem.
But, really, you might ask yourself why go to all the trouble? Is it a philosophy issue? Is it just hating change? Is there something technical causing problems with your computer that is caused by systemd? A lot of people claim to hate it, but rarely give any practical reasons. Sure, there are plenty of philosophical issues with systemd (and lots of personal issues where its developers are concerned), but take a good long look at why you don't like systemd before you try to avoid it.
And I wish people that want Linux to stay frozen would just stop upgrading or move to a system that sure to stay in 1970.
To be fair, LILO is very primitive and sensitive. It doesn't read filesystems; it has an installed map (the result of running lilo) that lists the exact blocks to load for a given entry. You cannot load anything that's not in its map. Touch any of those blocks and it can fall apart. GRUB was a vast improvement, but also adds a great deal of complexity. (GRUB2 even more so.)
Thanks for OpenRC. I *love* how it works on my Gentoo system. The ability to load custom variables for any script with /etc/conf.d files is wonderful.
I've gone a bit crazy with my /etc/conf.d/net, automatically setting up a ssh tunnel home if it sees that it's on an outside network (and trying several methods to get the tunnel working). If it's on ethernet, it switches the WiFi to being an access point. Lots of fun. I just wish the preup()/postup() functions were part of all the init scripts, not just the net script.
I also make use of /lib/dhcpcd-hooks to clean things up if the local network is unfriendly. If the provided DNS server mangles entries for non-existent domains, and if it doesn't block Google, it switches over transparently in my local script.
The paradigm of letting the user modify the behavior through regular shell scripts is extremely powerful. Thanks for keeping it alive.
Hate to break it to you, but when you install a distribution, you have a lot of software "shoved down your throat." It is what a distribution is, after all, and has been the case since forever. The maintainers decide what functionality is in the base system, what packages are installed in meta packages, what versions, what optional features to compile in. The only way around it is to use a source distribution like gentoo.
the systemd init may be brilliant, if it would be isolated. But its mixed up with udev, syslog and even gnome to some extent. This cannot be an good idea, because stuff like init needs to KISS.
http://wizardofbits.tumblr.com...
It's a theme on the Internet. If you don't qualify every minor nuance of your statement, or carve out an exception for every conceivable corner case, someone calls you out on it. Nothing can be left as an excercise for the reader, because too many readers are pedantic or intellectually dishonest.
Usually it's intentional equivocation masked as an attempt to sound intelligent or continue the argument when they no longer have a real point. Often they boil down to syntactic or semantic arguments, belaboring point after point until those with solid points are swarmed by nits. Unfortunately, that makes it very difficult to tell when someone is being obtuse versus when they are being curious or have a legitimate point.
The road to tyranny has always been paved with claims of necessity.
"The author is basically saying: we shouldn't take the risk of writing complex software."
No, he's saying you shouldnt write software that is more complex than it needs to be *for a critical system component* - and he's right. Get as complex as you want to be in your application, but things like init systems need to be taken more seriously.
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Friends don't let friends enable ecmascript.
If you think sysv init is not broken, then you must not have been using unix systems in earnest.
It is only simple till you want to have a reliable boot without races... BSD init is way simpler, true, but then that was deemed to be too inflexible already in the golden times of Unix. You really want to go back to that? Seriously?
You are aware that udev is part of that tree you are proposing to delete? With eSATA harddrives coming and going, projectors that get attached at random times, all kinds of gadgets with USB connectors? No thanks, I want something that I do not need to change a the boot script and then reboot when I plug in a mouse.
Let me keep systemd and go straight for a beer instead of bombing my system back into the 60s.
That way I can also update all the software I care about (much of it already depends on systemd or will do so soon), I get /var/log,
* the journal instead of a set of randomly formatted text-dumps all over
* a convenient way to kill apache with all the crap that it started,
* a more robust boot process that is not sprinkled with sleep 5 statements to give daemons enough time to be fully up before bringing up services that depend on them being there.
* a more secure system by being able to isolate daemons from one another and the rest of the system.
* a lot of convenient system config tools that work on (almost) all modern Linux distributions and do so even better that the "do one thing and do it well" tools that got replaced by them
Sheesh:-)
Regards, Tobias
"First, I have to ask, what is wrong with systemd?"
It's a massive, complicated, and very poorly behaved substitute for a simple, robust, and well behaved program. And it's not just a regular program, it is (if used as intended) a critical system component that will take your entire system down when it goes wrong.
If it were just a bad program, that's no big deal in and of itself, there are plenty, you just avoid them. But these people are not hackers, they have a marketing engine and are aggressively attempting to push themselves into a position where it WILL become impossible to avoid them and still use many new programs. That's beyond offensive. That's an attack on the Free Software ecosystem itself.
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Friends don't let friends enable ecmascript.
I like how people automatically assume change == good. Maybe I'm getting old, but it seems to be a young person thing (as is the rewrite everything from scratch mentality).
Change is change. It can be good, it can be bad. I'm not an expert on such things, but from everything I've read, the change to systemd is bad. And it seems to be a bad change in much the same ways the examples of change you gave (Metro, Unity, etc.) have turned out to be bad.
The Unix philosophy has always been to do big things by using little pieces. To violate this philosophy is not necessarily bad, but it would seem like trying to fit a round peg into a square hole. Sure, if you hammer it in hard enough, the thing will fit. But your square hole might have trouble fitting square pegs through afterwards, and your wooden board might crack after you fit more things through the hole irrespective of shape.
I'd have used a car analogy, but the best I could come up with is using the wrong kind of motor oil, which when put that way, doesn't seem quite as severe as the systemd problem.
"If a nation expects to be ignorant and free in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be."
BSD init is way simpler, true, but then that was deemed to be too inflexible already in the golden times of Unix
These are the golden times of Unix.
You really want to go back to that? Seriously?
You sound like its a bad thing. Its not.
the journal instead of a set of randomly formatted text-dumps all over /var/log,
I'll take the text-dumps any day, thanks. And since they're usually created via *syslog*, they may not even be stored locally. And they are easy to manipulate with the available shell tools (grep; cat; awk; etc). If you want a database-driven syslog, there are plenty around.
a convenient way to kill apache with all the crap that it started,
It seems you're getting closer to the real problem. Apparently you don't know how to operate a vaguely modern unix system.
a more robust boot process that is not sprinkled with sleep 5 statements to give daemons enough time to be fully up before bringing up services that depend on them being there.
Usually the sleeps are for hardware settling, not for script startup. Eg. when you plug a USB device that may take a couple of seconds to be available after powering on. This will be needed *regardless* of what script is running the show. And dependency management on start scripts is a solved problem. Have a look at FreeBSD/NetBSD rc.d system, or Solaris SMF.
a more secure system by being able to isolate daemons from one another and the rest of the system.
So, its a startup daemon AND a kernel, huh?
a lot of convenient system config tools that work on (almost) all modern Linux distributions and do so even better that the "do one thing and do it well" tools that got replaced by them
Convenient for who? For you, because you cannot be bothered into using the existing tools? You may have some unusual requirements, it doesn't mean everyone else has the same needs. And while I'd applause a sort-of-standard way of bootstrapping Linux distros, adding complexity seems to be a pretty stupid approach.
Systemd COULD be a good thing if it would stick to starting up the system. It should START udevd, not BE udevd. It should START dbus, not BE dbus. It should be trivially easy to do any of:
Switch from systemd to SysV, switch from SysV to systemd, use systemd but honor the SysV init scripts. With a bit of work fron the systemd folks, it should even be fairly easy to use SysV and have it start systemd to monitor select daemons.
Do that and every single objection would go away immediately.
the journal instead of a set of randomly formatted text-dumps all over /var/log,
Yes, those would be called, errr, yes, LOGS.......
As a sys admin I want something I can read when my system goes wrong and I don't want to have to get a retarded web server up and running to read them.
Seriously, people suggesting this kind of retarded shit don't know Unix, don't know Linux and don't have the faintest idea whatsoever. Go and read a Windows registry file, have fun and knock yourself out but don't bring that retarded crap so an operating system that actually works.
the journal instead of a set of randomly formatted text-dumps all over /var/log,
I'll take the text-dumps any day, thanks. And since they're usually created via *syslog*, they may not even be stored locally. And they are easy to manipulate with the available shell tools (grep; cat; awk; etc). If you want a database-driven syslog, there are plenty around.
You can wire up syslog to the journal. Why would you want to convert rich information into a string and shove it down a pipe before you make use of it? Let's start with a useful format and use lossy conversion methods on that when needed, not the other way around.
You are not ripping your CDs to mp3s either so that you can burn other CDs by converting those mp3 files to WAVs either, do you?
a convenient way to kill apache with all the crap that it started,
It seems you're getting closer to the real problem. Apparently you don't know how to operate a vaguely modern unix system.
So please enlighten me: How do you kill apache with all the php/ruby/whatnot crap it directly or indirectly spawned? With systemd it is just one convenient systemctl stop apache
Please do not assume that I am too young or too stupid to know the good old ways. I have been around for a while, even though I still have not managed to learn not to get into discussions at slashdot that are bound to end up in namecalling.
a more robust boot process that is not sprinkled with sleep 5 statements to give daemons enough time to be fully up before bringing up services that depend on them being there.
Usually the sleeps are for hardware settling, not for script startup. Eg. when you plug a USB device that may take a couple of seconds to be available after powering on. This will be needed *regardless* of what script is running the show. And dependency management on start scripts is a solved problem. Have a look at FreeBSD/NetBSD rc.d system, or Solaris SMF.
I was more thinking about starting postgres before the server that uses that DB to store its stuff. Grep for "sleep" in the init scripts of the sysv-init distribution of your choice: You will be surprised.
a more secure system by being able to isolate daemons from one another and the rest of the system.
So, its a startup daemon AND a kernel, huh?
Check out http://www.freedesktop.org/sof... , especially all the options starting with "Private" there.
a lot of convenient system config tools that work on (almost) all modern Linux distributions and do so even better that the "do one thing and do it well" tools that got replaced by them
Convenient for who? For you, because you cannot be bothered into using the existing tools? You may have some unusual requirements, it doesn't mean everyone else has the same needs. And while I'd applause a sort-of-standard way of bootstrapping Linux distros, adding complexity seems to be a pretty stupid approach.
Convenient for everybody. Just try the things that come with systemd. Most are a real improvement over the existing tools to manage hostname/date/time/timezone/locale/service/network/efi boot loader/virtual machine/whatnot. At the very least they are way more consistent in how they work and they work on all modern Linux distros in the same way. That was never possible before.
Yes, I know: Just suggesting to look into systemd is sacrelegious:-) Sorry, I won't do that again.
Let's just wait a year or two. By then all the hotheads that are running for the BSDs now will be back, everybody will be using systemd (including gentoo and slackware) since it clearly is the best approach available right now. When somebody finally comes along in 10 or 15 years with a good idea to replace systemd she will be yelled at for breaking away from the tried and true systemd that has been good enough for everybody this past decade.
Regards, Tobias
I just spent a merry 45 minutes trying to get Fedora 20 back up and running after a reboot. Systemd kept knocking it into Emergency Mode with no indication as to why. I'm still not certain whether it was a failing mount or a video card acting up. Or something else I don't know about yet.
SysV init is unquestionably feeble when it comes to controlling systems with complex daemon interdependencies. But putting stuff into sealed packages with No User Serviceable Parts Inside is not the way to go. I had to deal with that under OS/2 and it's one of the things I hated most about OS/2.
There is a tendency these days to offer a "complete solution" and to sneer at the ungrateful unwashed masses. But complete solutions never turn out to be complete enough. And these "Complete Solutions" are infamous for eliminating popular features that were in their predecessors. The systemctl facility admits that there are certain things that it cannot at present do that the cruder, but more flexible scripts of SystemV supported, and it's far from the worst offender.
Unix was developed on the philosophy that you didn't attempt to make one program do everything, you strung together simpler tools. Likewise, it logged to plain text files, which makes them accessible to a whole raft of text utilities, instead of a handful of specialized log utilities a la IBM. Besides which, a text file has to be seriously mangled before it's totally useless when everything's shot to Hell. Most binary files break far more easily and are far harder to repair.
If we forget where we came from, we're going to end up acquiring many of the same faults as Windows.
Do one thing well. Build more complex actions by putting smaller parts together. Swiss army knife system utilities need not apply. That is the Unix way.
Mount -a is the perfect way to mount filesystems needed to init the machine. The rest can be mounted by a daemon as they become available. My / filesystem resides on an HDD that is bolted in to the system, if it's not there, there is nothing to boot, so why does it need to be 'monitored'?