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Feds Issue Emergency Order On Crude Oil Trains

Hugh Pickens DOT Com (2995471) writes "Joan Lowy writes for AP that the Department of Transportation has issued an emergency order requiring that railroads inform state emergency management officials about the movement of large shipments of crude oil through their states and urged shippers not to use older model tanks cars that are easily ruptured in accidents, even at slow speeds. The emergency order follows a warning two weeks ago from outgoing National Transportation Safety Board Chairwoman Deborah Hersman that the department risks a 'higher body count' as the result of fiery oil train accidents if it waits for new safety regulations to become final. There have been nine oil train derailments in the U.S. and Canada since March of last year, many of them resulting in intense fires and sometimes the evacuation of nearby residents, according to the NTSB. The latest was last week, when a CSX train carrying Bakken crude derailed in downtown Lynchburg, Va., sending three tank cars into the James River and shooting flames and black smoke into the air. Concern about the safe transport of crude oil was heightened after a runaway oil train derailed and then exploded last July in the small town of Lac-Megantic in Canada, just across the border from Maine. More than 60 tank cars spilled more than 1.3 million gallons of oil. Forty-seven people were killed and 30 buildings destroyed in the resulting inferno. Hersman says that over her 10 years on the board she has 'seen a lot of difficulty when it comes to safely rules being implemented if we don't have a high enough body count. That is a tombstone mentality. We know the steps that will prevent or mitigate these accidents. What is missing is the will to require people to do so.'"

50 of 211 comments (clear)

  1. Environmentalists eat your heart out. by danbert8 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    You know, a PIPELINE would be a lot safer way of transporting crude oil around the country... Stopping the construction of pipelines results in more of these rail car accidents you know.

    --
    Yes it's an anecdote! Were you expecting original research in a Slashdot comment?
    1. Re:Environmentalists eat your heart out. by i+kan+reed · · Score: 5, Informative

      Yeah, we've obviously never had major pipeline spills.

    2. Re:Environmentalists eat your heart out. by timeOday · · Score: 3, Funny

      That's an interesting spin on the recent spate of oil disasters.

    3. Re:Environmentalists eat your heart out. by sinij · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I assume you are capable understanding that there is no such thing as perfectly secure system or completely bug free software? If so, then why does your brain takes a vacation when we start talking about petroleum?

      Our civilization is built on oil-derived products, we do not have a choice of not shipping it. If we stop shipping oil significant portion of human population will starve and/or freeze and die.

      Given our available shipping choices, pipelines are by far safest and energy efficient way to do it.

    4. Re:Environmentalists eat your heart out. by boristdog · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Yes, I've been saying this for a while. Pipelines are way safer but we also need stricter pipeline regulations.

      I have three oil pipelines that go through my property. While they are pretty solid, the pipeline companies refuse to do any maintenance (such as when one becomes uncovered in a creek bed where it's supposed to be at least 3 feet underground) until you call the news crews out.

    5. Re:Environmentalists eat your heart out. by i+kan+reed · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Our civilization is built on oil-derived products, we do not have a choice of not shipping it.

      In the short term. We should construct incentive networks that slowly migrate off fossil fuels while the costs are reasonable. We are not doing that, and it's going to be hazardous to our entire system.

      Building pipelines, while occasionally useful and necessary, should be done with due attention for the long term economic incentives it creates.

    6. Re:Environmentalists eat your heart out. by geekoid · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Let me know when the people whose ares have a pipeline get a piece of the action.
      Rails are already built.
      And a rail accidents is trivial spill next to a pipeline accident.

      But hey, lets take all the risk and damage so some company can make more money, and put the risk on the people.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    7. Re:Environmentalists eat your heart out. by danbert8 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      You're right, pipelines built in the 1930s do fail from time to time. Mainly because it's so hard to build new ones that pipeline companies try to run old pipelines at as high pressure as they can get away with. You should see the difference in how pipelines used to be constructed vs how they are built now. A new pipeline is an amazing feat of engineering. Old pipelines were just whatever pipe they could find laid in the ground.

      To make an obligatory Slashdot car analogy: I am suggesting we make new planes so people will be able to travel safer than driving a car. You come back with "yeah, we've obviously never had major plane crashes".

      --
      Yes it's an anecdote! Were you expecting original research in a Slashdot comment?
    8. Re:Environmentalists eat your heart out. by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 3

      Yeah, we've obviously never had major pipeline spills.

      Major pipeline spills are less common and don't kill dozens of people.

    9. Re:Environmentalists eat your heart out. by danbert8 · · Score: 4, Informative

      I just hope you call before you dig... The biggest single cause of pipeline releases is 3rd party excavation damage:
      http://primis.phmsa.dot.gov/co...

      --
      Yes it's an anecdote! Were you expecting original research in a Slashdot comment?
    10. Re:Environmentalists eat your heart out. by MightyMartian · · Score: 4, Insightful

      And what other choice is there? Even if AGW isn't happening (and all but the smallest fraction of experts in fields related to climatology say it is), sooner or later the economics of using a non-renewable energy source are going to kick us in the balls.

      --
      The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
    11. Re:Environmentalists eat your heart out. by mlookaba · · Score: 2

      As long as we are willing to include nuclear in that equation, than I agree.

      Without a cheap storage mechanism, solar/wind/etc. cannot satisfy the baseline demand of the power grid. Yes, there are ways to do that. They also impact the environment and come with a steep cost.

    12. Re:Environmentalists eat your heart out. by sinij · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Most of your food is shipped from far away places and this is economically feasible only due to cheap energy derived from oil. Most of your food is grown with use of fertilizers produced from oil, without fertilizers yields will be greatly reduced. Reduced yields + less fertile climate = a lot less food.

      Sure, we can learn to live in sustainable-energy-using urban centers and bike to work, but we can't learn to not eat. This is why oil is so crucial for our civilization.

    13. Re:Environmentalists eat your heart out. by danbert8 · · Score: 3, Informative

      http://www.manhattan-institute...

      Plenty of studies done... According to this one rail is about 4x more likely to have an incident per weight-mile. Which is still ahead of the 40x more likely when transported by road!

      --
      Yes it's an anecdote! Were you expecting original research in a Slashdot comment?
    14. Re:Environmentalists eat your heart out. by i+kan+reed · · Score: 4, Interesting

      There is enough material on the planet, and enough insolation on the planet to provide well over 100% of our energy needs by means of solar. That's a bit of a pipe dream, so reasonable migration steps with nuclear and slowly diminishing fossil fuel dependency is entirely doable. And it would cost us a fraction of our GDP.

      Of all major industries, energy is the field with the lowest ratio of research funding to revenue(most are about 5%, medicine is about 15%, energy is like 1-2%). It's entirely clear we're just not trying much.

    15. Re:Environmentalists eat your heart out. by i+kan+reed · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Nuclear is absolutely fantastic, because when done correctly, you create your next generation of fuel using this generation. Potentially thousands of years of energy supply.

      Solar and wind are superior outside of financial constraints, because they don't have any catastrophic failures possible from poor maintenance.

      Properly disincentivize fossil fuels gradually over the course of a couple decades, through taxes, tariffs, and regulations, and let the slack get picked up in whatever way is most market friendly.

    16. Re:Environmentalists eat your heart out. by Charliemopps · · Score: 2

      The vast majority of oil is shipped by pipeline or boat. The amount shipped by rail and truck is very small. It's only been used recently because of environmental opposition to pipelines. We're talking a few percent of what's shipped by pipeline or boat.

      Yet train derailments and truck crashes spill more oil than pipelines. The spills are smaller, a few hundred barrels, so they don't make a lot of news. When pipelines or boats spill, its usually either a major national news event because of the volume, or its a slow leak that goes unnoticed for years and adds up over time. With trains/trucks the spills can often be worse because they are often traveling through heavily populated areas and interstates that pass through wild-life preserves. Pipelines and boats aren't allowed near those areas other than their end-points. So the pipeline spills are often in areas where it's not as damaging. Train/truck spills may be of smaller amounts but could be in very bad locations (i.e. next to your kids daycare)

      Further reading:
      https://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/mi...

    17. Re:Environmentalists eat your heart out. by danbert8 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Not the most efficient method, and historically one of the worst environmentally and the most dangerous to large populations when there is a failure. Don't get me wrong, I am a huge proponent of hydro power, but it's not without severe disadvantages.

      --
      Yes it's an anecdote! Were you expecting original research in a Slashdot comment?
    18. Re:Environmentalists eat your heart out. by i+kan+reed · · Score: 3, Insightful

      It already kind of kicked the commuter society in the balls through gas prices. "Peak oil" happened, and we all just kinda grinned and bore it through extremely rapid commodity inflation.

      We didn't listen, when it would have been cheap to do so, so now it's a little more expensive to address(and we're still not doing anything about it).

    19. Re: Environmentalists eat your heart out. by Scowler · · Score: 2

      Pipelines only reduce the need for rail transport, not eliminate it altogether. Only high production areas like the Alberta sands and the Bakken will get pipelines... the smaller fracking sites dotting the country will still need rail. Your post unnecessarily detracts from the main issue, about the need for stronger regulations.

    20. Re:Environmentalists eat your heart out. by Trailer+Trash · · Score: 2, Informative

      You know, a PIPELINE would be a lot safer way of transporting crude oil around the country... Stopping the construction of pipelines results in more of these rail car accidents you know.

      Right. The problem is that President 1%'s buddy Warren Buffett owns a railroad, not a pipeline.

      Do the math.

    21. Re:Environmentalists eat your heart out. by bluefoxlucid · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Pipelines can ship solids, liquids, and gasses, Some pipelines are fully capable of transporting crude oil, then immediately transporting refined gasoline, then natural gas, then transporting coal, without huge maintenance cycles between. A client need only purchase transport from the shipper and their load will go through the pipeline.

      It surprised me that you could switch between mediums without decommissioning, fully cleaning, and then recommissioning the pipeline at great expense. Quite the opposite, pipelines do allow for low-cost changeover of medium in normal operation. You cannot pipeline water or other food-grade materials in this way.

    22. Re:Environmentalists eat your heart out. by WillAffleckUW · · Score: 2

      There's also compressed air storage (CPES) which is more efficient, but it's a technical solution that requires a higher infrastructure.

      Most energy use in the US is for heating and cooling buildings. Converting existing coal plants to cogeneration could address most of that, by doubling efficiency, as most First World nations do.

      --
      -- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
    23. Re:Environmentalists eat your heart out. by WillAdams · · Score: 2

      Contemporary industrial farming practices consume (via combustion or conversion into fertilizer) 10 calories of petro-chemical energy for every 1 calorie of food energy produced.

      --
      Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
    24. Re:Environmentalists eat your heart out. by interkin3tic · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Just so we're all clear about what is bullshit and what is actually the concern: some environmentalists such as myself don't care about safety of moving the stuff around. If you manage to make a new carbon sink that can eat up all the carbon being pumped out by the gas, you could deliver it across the country by strapping tanks to the back of baby seals and throwing them via catapult towards crowded cities for all I care. But you won't, and if gas prices stay artificially low, we won't stop driving for any trip longer than a half a block, which is why I'd prefer to stop the pipeline AND see the rails stopped.

    25. Re:Environmentalists eat your heart out. by jythie · · Score: 2

      Unlikely. While it makes for good science fiction, all we will likely see is a gradual increase in cost resulting in decrease of luxury, and as that happens other materials will become more economically viable. All that will really change is which industries the money flows into, the actual impact on the average person will be imperceptible.

    26. Re:Environmentalists eat your heart out. by TubeSteak · · Score: 4, Informative

      A new pipeline is an amazing feat of engineering. Old pipelines were just whatever pipe they could find laid in the ground.

      All the engineering in the world means dick if you never inspect it and actively lobby against mandatory spill detection technologies because they make pipelines more expensive.

      To make an obligatory Slashdot car analogy: I am suggesting we make new planes so people will be able to travel safer than driving a car. You come back with "yeah, we've obviously never had major plane crashes".

      Airplanes have been having a lot more problems since the airlines started off-shoring maintenance.
      It's been an ongoing problem for ~10 years now.

      It's no surprise that the cheaper route is not the safer route when it comes to planes and pipelines.

      --
      [Fuck Beta]
      o0t!
    27. Re:Environmentalists eat your heart out. by danbert8 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Never inspecting things is not allowed actually... http://primis.phmsa.dot.gov/co...

      Spill detection is present on every pipeline, it's just a matter of how sensitive it is. It is in a pipeline's best interest to keep product in the pipe as a leak is lost product even if you didn't have to worry about disasters and cleanup.

      Airplanes have the same problem as pipelines. A lot of them were made a long time ago, and people have been trying to string them along past their design lifespans. New pipelines are far safer than old pipelines. Trying to block construction or replacement of pipelines is counter to making pipeline disasters less likely.

      --
      Yes it's an anecdote! Were you expecting original research in a Slashdot comment?
    28. Re:Environmentalists eat your heart out. by i+kan+reed · · Score: 2

      Population growth isn't the big deal we make it out to be. Sort of. The first world has very slow-to-negative population growth. The third world shows signs of slowing down, and, currently, at least, much lower per capital energy usage.

    29. Re:Environmentalists eat your heart out. by danbert8 · · Score: 2

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L...

      North Dakota has a total of 80MBBL/day refining capacity. Louisiana has 3,310MBBL/day capacity. Texas also has a huge amount. Oh you want to build a new refinery? Would that be easier or harder than approval for a new pipeline? A new refinery hasn't been built in the US since 1976.

      --
      Yes it's an anecdote! Were you expecting original research in a Slashdot comment?
    30. Re:Environmentalists eat your heart out. by Mashiki · · Score: 2

      So why don't they ship this oil by boat then?

      Because landlocked states and provinces aren't on the water, unless you live in another universe where places like North Dakota and Alberta have places that are deep enough to carry fuel loaded ships, or are on a coastline. And in other cases, because the environuts block building pipelines to...did you guess the coastline? Well big shock on that one huh...

      --
      Om, nomnomnom...
    31. Re:Environmentalists eat your heart out. by Darktan · · Score: 3, Funny

      Because oil tankers never call on ports in North Dakota or Alberta. It's a conspiracy, I tell you.

    32. Re:Environmentalists eat your heart out. by JoeMerchant · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Of all major industries, energy is the field with the lowest ratio of research funding to revenue

      which they more than compensate for via ownership of a major political party.

    33. Re:Environmentalists eat your heart out. by JoeMerchant · · Score: 2

      All in all, pipelines are safer than trains are safer than supertankers, but each has its place and none are perfect.

    34. Re:Environmentalists eat your heart out. by JoeMerchant · · Score: 2

      There was a pipeline from Miami International Airport to Homestead Air Force base carrying jet fuel.

      A small leak under Cutler Ridge shopping mall went undetected for years, until somebody noticed the storm drains were all flammable.

    35. Re:Environmentalists eat your heart out. by Minwee · · Score: 2

      And a rail accidents is trivial spill next to a pipeline accident.

      Whatever you say.

    36. Re:Environmentalists eat your heart out. by sinij · · Score: 2

      Have you looked at consumption in China? Energy use keeps growing and they have strong demographic reasons to weaken/cancel One Child policy. I think framing this problem as first vs. third word is what lead you to mistaken conclusion - nether camps are static, plus there are a lot of places that are in-between these classifications and are growing both population and energy use.

      In the past we had wars and epidemics to keeping population in check. We largely mitigated these problems. Can you suggest something that would have comparable impact? Or are you suggesting that humanity suddenly changed over only couple generations?

    37. Re:Environmentalists eat your heart out. by rsborg · · Score: 2

      Of all major industries, energy is the field with the lowest ratio of research funding to revenue

      which they more than compensate for via ownership of a major political party.

      Just one? They one at least one and a half - because they seem to get whatever they want regardless of who's in majority.

      --
      Make sure everyone's vote counts: Verified Voting
  2. This is why we need the government regulation by sinij · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Shipping crude oil by railroads is not the case where industry was willing to engage in meaningful self-regulation. Railroads showed complete unwillingness to properly classify cargo (some forms of crude are outright explosive) or use proper equipment (modern tanker cars that resist spills/ruptures during derailment) or follow proper safety measures (multiple operators and not shipping through high-density urban areas). Instead, they are playing shell game where liability outsourced to low-asset holding company that rents everything from the mother company.

    1. Re:This is why we need the government regulation by Eunuchswear · · Score: 5, Funny

      And, in the oxymoron stakes:

      meaningful self-regulation

      is a clear winner.

      --
      Watch this Heartland Institute video
    2. Re:This is why we need the government regulation by GameboyRMH · · Score: 2

      I thought the same thing...

      Also an interesting fact about the Lac Megantic disaster: some people near the source of the explosion are assumed to have been vaporized. Nobody knows for certain, but that's the best guess as to what happened to these people who completely disappeared.

      --
      "When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
    3. Re:This is why we need the government regulation by MarkRose · · Score: 2

      You're blaming railroads for a lot of things they have no control over:

      • Railroads don't classify the goods being shipped, shippers do.
      • Railroads can't refuse to take dangerous goods. They're classified as common carries and have to carry anything that's allowed by regulation, including hazardous materials.
      • Railroads do own older, less safe equipment, such as older DOT-111 tank cars and can reasonably be blamed for spotting the cars they own to industries shipping volatile chemicals. However, they cannot refuse to move cars delivered from other railroads, or leased by the industries. Furthermore, the factories making replacement vehicles are backed up for two years. Even so, railroads are replacing the cars they own. They are being responsible.
      • Most rail lines were built in rural areas, and the cities grew up around them. Don't blame the railroad when a city builds up next to a transportation corridor that transports dangerous goods. In the cases where railroads have rebuilt outside of cities, the cities have again crowded around the lines. What do you expect railroads to do? They were there first.

      The solution is to put hydrocarbons (and other dangerous liquid goods) in pipelines that are statistically far safer. Pipelines, carrying one a single product, can be routed far away from urban areas. But those in power refuse to allow it, in cases stalling for over half a decade.

      Or blame the shippers, who purposely make their shipments more volatile and mislabel the contents.

      Railroads can be blamed for runaway trains, like the one that got away in Lac-Megantic (a train that had safely passed through Toronto earlier). Derailments happen, despite the best efforts to prevent them (they cost a lot of money, so no railroad wants them). But most of the blame for the explosive situations that have resulted cannot be placed on the railroads: their hands are tied.

      --
      Be relentless!
  3. Feds Issue Emergency Order On Crude Oil Trains by danielpauldavis · · Score: 3, Insightful

    What I call the "suffering quotient": if 1 person dies, that 1 unkonwn person's death is largely ignored. If 50 or 100 die, we might do something about preventing the next accident (we might not.) Conversely, if a famous person dies, we pay attention and deal with the problem that killed our celebrity. We need to get some famous people killed by these crude oil spills or nothing will be done.

    --
    Cranky educator.
    1. Re:Feds Issue Emergency Order On Crude Oil Trains by Sarten-X · · Score: 5, Funny

      I nominate Justin Beiber for this heroic endeavor.

      --
      You do not have a moral or legal right to do absolutely anything you want.
  4. holy crap by geekoid · · Score: 2

    "requiring that railroads inform state emergency management officials about the movement of large shipments of crude oil "

    there not doing that now? that's the most basic courtesy and emergency preparedness. It's irresponsible.

    --
    The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
  5. Re:Set 'em up, knock 'em down by kenaaker · · Score: 2
    Why don't you take your tin-foil hat brigade somewhere else. Maybe Syria, Somalia, you know someplace that has no effective government.

    Could we at least number the anonymous cowards, I'd like to know if the crap is coming from one blabbermouth or if there's a team of sock puppets at work.

    It would make it easier to get a better signal to noise ratio.

  6. Re:U.S. Railways by jbeaupre · · Score: 2

    "Amtrak's passenger services are sparse compared with Europe's. But America's freight railways are one of the unsung transport successes of the past 30 years. They are universally recognised in the industry as the best in the world."

    http://www.economist.com/node/...

    --
    The world is made by those who show up for the job.
  7. Energy in Train load: 11 Tanker Cars = 1 nucBomb by RichMan · · Score: 2

    So how much energy is there in a train load of Cude Oil?

    Energy denisty of crude oil ~46MJ/Kg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_density)
    DOT-111 tanker car of Lac Magantic fire is 131,000 L (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DOT-111_tank_car)
    Assuming 1L/1Kg - some of these oils float some of the really thick stuff sinks.

    Per Tanker car 6.026x10^12 J/ Tank Car.
    Little Boy explosion was equivalent to 16,000 tons of TNT (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Boy)
    16000 tons of TNT is 66944000 MJ of energy (http://www.kylesconverter.com/energy,-work,-and-heat/megajoules-to-tons-of-tnt).
    Or 1 Litte Boy = 66.944x10^12 J
    or 1 Little Boy = 11.11 Tanker Cars of Crude Oil

  8. Re:I have an idea by Wookact · · Score: 2

    As someone who lives in the state holding up the Keystone, I will tell you we don't want it here unless you can route it around environmentally sensitive areas like the sand hills and the Ogallala aquifer. That and the fact that we gave eminent domain rights to a foreign company, how perverse is that. A foreign company gets to take away your land. You'd think that those on the right would hate it. They don't its worth too much money for them.

  9. Re:Rail line routes by onkelonkel · · Score: 2

    Around here the railroads have been doing diversions around towns where it makes sense. The city trades land with the railroad. The city gets the relatively more valuable downtown railway lands (right of way plus railyards), gets to close a whole lot of at grade road/rail crossings (better traffic flow, much safer), plus no more noisy stinky trains downtown, and in return the railroad gets a corridor around the town plus a bunch of extra land on the outskirts of town to build a new (bigger) yard. A lot of times the city and railway get together to build a big-ass industrial park (with railway service) near the new yard, and usually if you do it right the new industrial park has convenient highway access for intermodal (containers) traffic. The only downside for the railway is a slightly longer route, otherwise it's a win, win, win for everybody.

    --
    None of them can see the clouds; The polished wings don't care.