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Belief In Evolution Doesn't Measure Science Literacy

cold fjord writes: "Dan Kahan at the Yale Law School Cultural Cognition Project says, 'Because imparting basic comprehension of science in citizens is so critical to enlightened democracy, it is essential that we develop valid measures of it, so that we can assess and improve the profession of teaching science to people. ... The National Science Foundation has been engaged in the project of trying to formulate and promote such a measure for quite some time. A few years ago it came to the conclusion that the item "human beings, as we know them today, developed from earlier species of animals," shouldn't be included when computing "science literacy." The reason was simple: the answer people give to this question doesn't measure their comprehension of science. People who score at or near the top on the remaining portions of the test aren't any more likely to get this item "correct" than those who do poorly on the remaining portions. What the NSF's evolution item does measure, researchers have concluded, is test takers' cultural identities, and in particular the centrality of religion in their lives.' Kahan also had a previous, related post on the interaction between religiosity and scientific literacy."

22 of 772 comments (clear)

  1. Wait a sec by eclectro · · Score: 5, Insightful

    There is no "belief" for evolutionary principles. It is not a system of religious thought.

    --
    Take the cheese to sickbay, the doctor should see it as soon as possible - B'Elanna Torres, "Learning Curve"
    1. Re:Wait a sec by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 4, Insightful

      There is no "belief" for evolutionary principles. It is not a system of religious thought.

      Not terribly relevant in most cases: virtually nobody can personally validate, or even hit the primary sources, for more than a tiny fraction of what we collectively know. Their relationship with the rest is pretty much a belief state (though, of course, there is a very significant difference between "I believe X because recognized X experts suggest that X is the best available theory, given their understanding of the data" and "I believe X because $HOLY_BOOK says so.")

    2. Re:Wait a sec by pla · · Score: 4, Insightful

      There is no "belief" for evolutionary principles. It is not a system of religious thought.

      You can still "believe" in true things. I fully expect the average Joe's belief in how electricity makes their lights work as substantially similar to belief in $Deity - They have no clue at all about the underlying principles at work, and just blindly repeat the same things their parents did out of indoctrinated habit.

      Ask ten random people whether TVs "attract" lightning (as opposed to your antenna simply counting as the highest good conductor in the immediate area), and you'll probably weep for humanity at how many of them say "yes".

    3. Re:Wait a sec by Opportunist · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Actually, people can "believe" in science. Just as they can believe in anything else, including religion. Most people actually do that.

      They hear that some scientist found out something awesome. Like, say, how a laser works. And they might use a DVD player which incidentally use a laser, without having the slightest clue just how that thing works, or what the science behind it is. For all they care, or know, it could as well work with pixie dust and magically operated by faeries.

      The difference is that they have the option not to believe but to test what is scientifically produced. They can build their own laser (time, money and skill provided) and it WILL work.

      It's not that easy for stuff that you can ONLY believe.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    4. Re:Wait a sec by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Scientific Theory = A model of how something works, able to make predictions.
      Scientific Law = A set of equations, stating in mathematics what a Scientific Theory states in plain language.
      Scientific Hypothesis = An idea of how something might work, without a way to make or test predictions. It will eventually move on to become a theory, or get shut down.

      Contrast with:
      Theory = An idea of how something MIGHT have happened
      Law = A set of rules enforced by the police

    5. Re:Wait a sec by GrumpySteen · · Score: 5, Insightful

      it has not been promoted to the level of law (in the sense of the law of gravity or the law of thermodynamics

      The funny thing is, we know less about gravity than we do about evolution.

      We know that there is something that causes attraction between objects and can make predictions based on our observations of that effect, but we can't explain with any certainty how it actually works or why it exists. There are a variety of competing theories, but we don't have enough evidence to determine if any of them is even close to correct.

      Thanks to the development agriculture, selective breeding, the sacrifice of billions of fruit flies and the
      abundance of fossil evidence we've uncovered, we actually understand evolution far better than we understand gravity.

      The thing is... it's a lot harder to deny the existence of gravity when someone can throw you off a cliff to prove it.

    6. Re:Wait a sec by dave420 · · Score: 5, Informative

      No - evolution is the observed phenomenon, and the theory of evolution is the explanation of said phenomenon.

    7. Re:Wait a sec by Bacon+Bits · · Score: 5, Insightful

      No, you misunderstand.

      Everything you think is true is something you believe. If someone says, "1+1=2," you say, "Yes, that is true." What you really mean is, "Yes, I believe that to be true." Certainly, things are true or false absent of any belief, but when we're asking about whether or not an individual thinks something is true or false, we're exactly talking about belief. We're not talking about accuracy of scientific or mathematic laws, theories, or models. We're talking about the nature of knowledge, perception, and human understanding.

      Think of it this way. For thousands of years humans believed that when they saw a sunrise that the sun had revolved around the earth on a crystal sphere. That's what their knowledge of the universe told them was true, so that is what they believed, and that's what their knowledge told them they saw. That was as true to them as the truth you belive in when your knowledge tells you that the earth is held in orbit by gravity and rotates to bring the sun back into view. The fact that your knowledge might be more accurate or might have more evidence behind it is irrelevant. Your belief that it is true, or belief that it is false, or fundamental misunderstanding of what is truly going on doesn't change what's really going on. Nevertheless, knowing who agrees with your beliefs and therefore agree with what the common knowledge tells us about the universe can be valuable.

      You can do the same thing with any scientific model. Consider big bang vs steady state theory. Did you know that, to this day, scientific papers are published in journals relating to the steady state model of the universe? Consider the model of the atom. We've gone from the plum pudding model, to the ring model, to the Bohr model, which is still the most commonly taught model, I believe. None of them really represnt the atom that well, of course, but people still imagine the Bohr model when you say "atom" to them. That's not what an atom actually is or looks like, but that is what people believe.

      --
      The road to tyranny has always been paved with claims of necessity.
    8. Re:Wait a sec by countach · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Technically it is "a" scientific explanation, not "the" explanation. It may be the most prominent, most widely accepted etc etc. But there is no such thing as "the" explanation for anything, unless there is literally nobody who disagrees. There are a number of sub-theories within evolution for a start. "The" explanation for continents in the 19th century repudiated continental drift as bunkum. Everything is tentative.

    9. Re:Wait a sec by i+kan+reed · · Score: 4, Insightful

      No, it doesn't. That is in no way an idea that can be attributed to Christianity. Neither is an original idea of Christian philosophers(we definitely see it discussed by Plato), nor is it directly in the bible to show a fundamental connection.

      What you're doing is a pretty dumb thing: "Intuitively true thing must come from my religion, and since it's intuitively true, it must validate that religion"

    10. Re:Wait a sec by dryeo · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Evolution says nothing about how it all started so even if there was an intelligent designer it doesn't matter as far as theory of evolution is concerned. What it does do is raise the question of where the intelligent designer came from and how it evolved.

      --
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverted_totalitarianism
    11. Re:Wait a sec by advid.net · · Score: 4, Insightful

      [..] you can believe that this particular theory is the right one [...]

      This is not a belief, since I wouldn't say that I *believe* that it is the right one, no...

      I would rather say that I'm convinced and that I agree with the reasoning of this theory, given the facts and using logic.

      And it is by far the best, and in fact the only one that is still valid and was reinforced during a century of observations, also with predictions comforted by new observations.
      There is no other theory left about evolution, and this one was remarkable for its scientific validation.

      With all those facts and observations, if you still have doubts, then you must also have some about any theory, even wonder is Earth is flat or not, who knows ?
      And have absolute doubt, question even reality...
      You can, if you want.

      BTW, "believe" might be an ambiguous word in English, like "Free" (Libre or Gratis?), this can be confusing for some people.
      Do they say "believe" for "having the belief" - with faith - or just "thinking it's right and valid" - no faith needed - as it can be used casually.
      Mixing the two is really confusing.

    12. Re: Wait a sec by tysonedwards · · Score: 5, Interesting

      It doesn't matter the amount of evidence available, there will always be deniers. Hell, there is photographic and some video evidence of the holocaust and yet there are still swarms of people saying that it never happened. 9/11, swarms of people saying 'the jets weren't even commercial airliners but were military cargo planes' and yet hundreds of millions of people if not billions watched it live with plenty of recordings available today. Some people just like to take confrontational standpoints because they find them fun.

      --
      Thirty four characters live here.
    13. Re:Wait a sec by K.+S.+Kyosuke · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Belief is a state of mind in which you hold a proposition to be true, for whatever reason you do so. So if you think that theory X is correct on basis of logical reasoning, it's automatically also a belief.

      --
      Ezekiel 23:20
  2. Maybe it doesn't measure science literacy by Opportunist · · Score: 5, Insightful

    But it sure measures the amount of faith people want to put into "a wizard did it" as a valid explanation of something.

    --
    We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
  3. From many points of data by alphatel · · Score: 4, Interesting

    While Dan has certainly taken pains to show the many correlations between one subset and another, I think the most important one to consider is this:

    Those who firmly believe that a "God" was involved in the universe/mankind, were less likely to score at the upper tier of scientific knowledge. Everyone else drew mixed results.

    I also like this quote here:
    Nevertheless, the subgroup of such students who did back away from two particular beliefs hostile to naturalistic evolution (that the “living world is controlled by a force greater than humans” and that “all events in nature occur as part of a predetermined master plan”) consisted of the students who scored the lowest in critical reasoning skills.

    --
    When the foot seeks the place of the head, the line is crossed. Know your place. Keep your place. Be a shoe.
    1. Re:From many points of data by ceoyoyo · · Score: 4, Insightful

      No, you've misrepresented the data. Right in the summary:

      "People who score at or near the top on the remaining portions of the test aren't any more likely to get this item "correct" than those who do poorly on the remaining portions."

      "What the NSF's evolution item does measure, researchers have concluded, is test takers' cultural identities, and in particular the centrality of religion in their lives."

      They're trying to measure "scientific literacy" (which is a stupid term). The answers to the evolution question don't correlate with the answers to the other questions because it's measuring something different. They've concluded it's measuring people's inclination to believe in religion, presumably over science. That would seem to be an important factor in scientific literacy, so the evolution question is actually capturing something that is missed by the other questions.

  4. No. "Theory" is not "hypothesis". by Dr.+Manhattan · · Score: 4, Insightful

    A scientific theory ties together a broad range of observations into a coherent model and makes testable predictions, that have since been tested and found to be accurate. It's still called the germ theory of disease, after all. Or the theory of Relativity, which you use every time you use a GPS. Without Relativistic corrections, the whole system would drift to the point of uselessness within six hours.

    --
    PHEM - party like it's 1997-2003!
  5. Re:Science by drosboro · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I don’t think you’ve got your definition of “believing” quite right - there’s no reason to require “belief” to be unsubstantiated. In fact we very often hear scientists say things like “I believe that [x], and here’s why”. To “believe” just means to hold something to be true.

    In fact, philosophers have long defined “knowledge” as “justified true belief”. There’s lots of variations on that theme, and arguing about whether that’s a right definition - but the argument is not about the “belief” part as much as the “justified” and “true" parts.

    So, it is in fact incorrect to say that science eliminates the need for believing - what it does, however, is provide reasons or justification for our beliefs.

  6. Willfull blindness by RichMan · · Score: 4, Interesting

    What this says is people will accept science except where they feel it contradicts with their beliefs.

    Gravity - ok
    Electricity - ok
    Evolution - nope

    I think this says it all. Even with the one nope they have proven themselves not to be scientifically literate. They have proven that they have a rational space that cannot be challenged by science. No matter how rational you might otherwise be if there is a think-space where you refuse to be rational you are at root irrational.

  7. Re:Here's an inconvenient question by Dr.+Manhattan · · Score: 4, Informative

    This doesn't necessarily mean that he disagrees with evolution and mutation as a mechanism for change or that there is common DNA across a large number of species.

    BTW, I couldn't let this one go. It's not just 'a large number'. It's the same DNA code across all organisms we know of. There are a couple of exceptions - but they edit the code back to the 'standard' one before the proteins are transcribed.

    And the pattern of 'common DNA' confirms common descent to a ridonkulous degree.

    Books used to be copied by scribes, and (despite a lot of care) sometimes typos would be introduced. Later scribes, making copies of copies, would introduce other typos. It's possible to look at the existing copies and put them into a 'family tree'. "These copies have this typo, but not that one; this other group has yet another typo, though three of them have a newer typo as well, not seen elsewhere..." This is not controversial at all when dealing with books, including the Bible.

    Now, this process of copy-with-modification naturally produces 'family trees', nested groups. When we look at life, we find such nested groups. No lizards with fur or nipples, no mammals with feathers, etc. Living things (at least, multicellular ones, see below) fit into a grouped hierarchy. This has been solidly recognized for over a thousand years, and systematized for centuries. It was one of the clues that led Darwin to propose evolution. (Little-known fact: Linnaeus, who invented the "kingdom, phyla, genus, species, etc." classification scheme for living things, tried to do the same thing for minerals. But minerals don't form from copy-with-modification, and a 'nested hierarchy' just didn't work and never caught on.)

    Today, more than a century later, we find another tree, one Darwin never suspected - that of DNA. This really is a 'text' being copied with rare typos. And, as expected, it also forms a family tree, a nested hierarchy. And, with very very few surprises, it's the same tree that was derived from looking at physical traits.

    It didn't have to be that way. Even very critical genes for life - like that of cytochrome C - have a few neutral variations, minor mutations that don't affect its function. (Genetic sequences for cytochrome C differ by up to 60% across species.) Wheat engineered to use the mouse form of cytochrome C grows just fine. But we find a tree of mutations that fits evolution precisely, instead of some other tree. (Imagine if a tree derived from bookbinding technology - "this guy used this kind of glue, but this other bookbinder used a different glue..." - conflicted with a tree that was derived from typos in the text of the books. We'd know at least one tree and maybe both were wrong.)

    The details of these trees are very specific and very, very numerous. There are billions of quadrillions of possible trees... and yet the two that we see (DNA and morphology) happen to very precisely match. This is either a staggering coincidence, or a Creator deliberately arranged it in a misleading manner, or... universal common ancestry is actually true.

    (Single-celled organisms are much more 'promiscuous' in their reproduction and spread genes willy-nilly without respect for straightforward inheritance. With single-celled creatures, it looks more like a 'web' of life than a 'tree'. But even if the tree of life has tangled roots, it's still very definitely a tree when it comes to multicellular life. Which is the area that people opposed to evolution most worry about anyway.)

    --
    PHEM - party like it's 1997-2003!
  8. Re:Evolution is not an Observed Phenomenon by Urkki · · Score: 4, Informative

    The theory of evolution interprets this observed phenomenon and posits the completely unobserved transition between kinds of animal.

    "posits the completely unobserved transition between kinds of animal"

    Well, no, there's no transition between "kinds of animal" really. I suppose you could say such transitions happened when different "kingdoms of life" appeared (we really have no clue how exactly that went down, just wild speculation), but not between animals. Or to put it another way, cat will not have evolutionary transition to a dog, just to a different cat. From this follows, humans, cats and dogs are just different tetrapods. Earlier tetrapods had "transitions" to cats (still tetrapod), dogs (still tetrapod) and humans (also still tetrapods).

    To repeat, there is no transition between "kinds of animal" in the theory of evolution. And rest of your post kinda falls apart from this simple misunderstanding.