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German Authorities Lack Evidence To Prosecute Anyone For NSA Spying
jfruh (300774) writes "The revelations about the NSA's surveillance program caused particular outrage in Germany, a country that is closely allied with the United States but nevertheless found that its leader's cell phone was being snooped on. Nevertheless, the German federal prosecutor's office will not be bringing any charges against anyone, mostly because they lack enough evidence (Google translation). The decision is sparking anger among German privacy advocates."
Translation: The NSA has some information about their politicians that would be... Unfortunate if it was accidentally revealed in a trial.
You can't prove a negative. How in the world would you prove you did not do something? Presumption of guilt until proven innocent is never a good thing.
I would advise Germany to mind its own business
I don't think it needs to, the NSA is minding Germany's business for them.
Summation 2
That would just result in political prosecutions.
We have treaties left over from WW2 that interestingly were put in place. There is a Professor at Freiburg University who says what the NSA is doing in Germany is basically legal. He even claims that the German secret service can legally assist the NSA.
http://www.sueddeutsche.de/politik/historiker-foschepoth-ueber-us-ueberwachung-die-nsa-darf-in-deutschland-alles-machen-1.1717216
We also have a quite unspecific exception clause in Artikel 10 (section 10) of our Grundgesetz (constituiton), that restricts applicability of telecommunications secrecy.
http://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/gg/art_10.html
If you can't take the heat.. well, you know the routine. If you want the power, you must pay the price.
“He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
Whats the issue here? While indeed "allies", Germany is still an international rival to the USA and thus the NSA targeting the German political leadership is perfectly acceptable as that is, surprisingly enough, their job - espionage and intelligence gathering! Gathering information which gives the USA an advantage in talks or negotiations (trade agreements et al) is what is supposed to be going on.
What the Germans should be asking close questions about is why their counter-espionage agencies are not protecting them - where is the failure?
Sorry, they must be put under the Sword. It's the only way to keep the riff-raff out of the running. Cut them no slack.
“He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
You can prove negatives. What you can't prove is that something is true by the absence of any proof that it is false.
Is it a school holiday again?
"Kill 'em all and let Root sort 'em out"
That's kind of funny. Citizens are considered guilty and treated like criminals until proven innocent. I think all he's asking for is a little bit of equality.
If we, the people, are losing our rights, I damned well expect that politicians should lose theirs, too.
Even accepting your idea that there should be no limits on espionage, one big problem here is that the espionage was discovered. If you are going to spy on me, I'd better not find out about it. That's just the way the game is played. If it were OK to do, they wouldn't call it "spying," they would call it "looking."
Currently hooked on AMP
"Ja, Ve investigated but der Amerikans undt Birtish vouldn't answer zee question and zee others vent all Sgt Schulz on uns"
Meanwhile, behind the scenes, leaders realized such a prosecution would open a can of worms that could lead to very embarrassing disclosures about German activities and complicity in the spying. No politician wants to be caught in that mess, and the spymasters are quite happy to keep working together while the politicians publicly denounce the spying for their own political ends. I would not be surprised if sone of the professionals are going "We have too get some of that stuff for ourselves" and "Holy crap. They can do that?"
I'm a consultant - I convert gibberish into cash-flow.
Stop with the "it's their job!" nonsense. Nobody is buying it. Our president was just saying a few months before the NSA revelations that China was hacking into our government systems and considered it a breach of treaty and an illegal act of aggression. The only difference here is that the "bad guys" are on our side and you are buying into their propaganda.
"Everybody else is doing it" also is not an excuse. It didn't work when you were a child and sure as fuck doesn't work when you're a adult. Do not make excuses for those that are actively making themselves your enemy.
What the Germans should be asking close questions about is why their counter-espionage agencies are not protecting them - where is the failure?
It's all faux outrage for political expediency. I won't consider Snowden's a success until I see a very dramatic turnover in elected offices. In fact, it looks more like an attempt to manipulate the stock markets than anything else. The politicians and their political parties are in no danger of losing anything.
“He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
That's Snowden's efforts...
“He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
The problem is not that people are angry, its that they want legal recourse to be had - they want NSA chiefs and ex-chiefs et al to be prosecuted, which is pure fantasy land demands imho, very much like the recent "charging" of Chinese military personnel with hacking US institutions.
I have no issue with people being angry, or there being very real political ramifications between "allies", but for privacy groups to demand prosecutions just shows how far out of touch with reality they actually are.
The NSA couldn't spy and monitor in Germany without the close and widespread collaboration of the German government and German corporations.
What they are really saying is that they couldn't find someone to shift the blame to outside the government or the corporations close to the government.
The Nazi's what understood quite well? (check your possessive apostrophe)
I'll let someone else make the appropriate joke about a grammar nazi comment about real Nazis. So to feel like I contributed something serious to the discussion, I'll simply add that, whatever they understood about SIGINT, the Nazis were pwned by the English-speaking world too.
that is, surprisingly enough, their job
Bam, Godwin! (Hint: Nürnberg processes)
Not until I seek power over others.
“He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
If you want the power, you must pay the price.
This attitude ensures that we are governed by people that love power.
Wow, if this is the prevailing attitude in America, then the rest of the world needs to bomb you moronic douchebags back into the stone age before you do any more harm.
Go wave your little penis elsewhere.
God Americans are assholes.
You already are. XD
Don't just stand there, get that other dog!
If you want the power, you must pay the price.
This attitude ensures that we are governed by people that love power.
That's why I think we should have lotteries for political service. Once you hit voting age and legally able to vote, you are automatically entered into the service lottery and you serve one term and one term only in that office.
Once you do one mandatory service period, one can choose to volunteer to be placed back into the lottery pool for another office other than the one you served in.
This will take a bit of the money out of politics, end career politicians and I really think it would lead to a much fairer democracy and republic.
Well, apparently the Germans figured out that the spying wasn't "discovered", so much as "leaked by Snowden".
Alas, without names, dates, actual evidence, it's pretty hard to turn "Snowden said..." into actual prosecution and prison sentences and all that.
Especially if it turns out that the guilty parties are in the USA, and have been the whole time. Do you REALLY think we're going to extradite our intelligence analysts to Germany to stand trial?
"I do not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"
No, they don't really want "legal recourse". They want revenge. Punish those guys! What, they didn't do anything illegal? Tough! Punish them anyway!!!
"I do not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"
Politics has always been about people seeking power. You're laughably naive to think otherwise.
The Nazis had, at best, a limited grasp on SIGINT. They came up with a world-class solution, then stopped development, since their then-current ideas were so perfect noone would be able to crack them.
Someone should have explained to them that signals security is an ongoing process, not an idea....
"I do not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"
"follow the money" has gotten trite, but I have to wonder if the German federal government's decision not to pursue this is in any way tied to the large amount of German gold we are holding for them. As I recall, they asked for it back a couple years ago and the US declined to ship it.
Oliver's law of assumed responsibility: If you're seen fixing it, you will be blamed for breaking it.
No, the USA "brings charges against" these guys. "Prosecution" requires a trial before a Judge and Jury. Which in turns requires a defendant who is PRESENT for the trial. We have no legal provision for Trial in Absentia in the USA (hence Kerry saying Snowden should "come back to the US to stand trial").
"I do not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"
No, it's not 'their job.' Their actual mission statement is much more nuanced than that, the job descriptions of those within the agency are much more complicated, and the reality is that even job descriptions tend to miss a huge share of what someone actually does. So, when you say it is 'their job', you are saying that you don't believe that these people with lots of power should be properly checked. The notion of 'perfectly acceptable' and 'their job' is the heart of the problem. It's also assuming 'their job' needs to exist at all. If you wanted to improve US national security, one of the first steps would be to destroy the NSA.
This is my signature. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
No, the USA "brings charges against" these guys. "Prosecution" requires a trial before a Judge and Jury. Which in turns requires a defendant who is PRESENT for the trial. We have no legal provision for Trial in Absentia in the USA (hence Kerry saying Snowden should "come back to the US to stand trial").
Barring the occasional executive order to dispense with all that inconvenient legal stuff... for example
I think you have just invented Science!
This issue is a bit more complicated than you think.
It's all faux outrage for political expediency.
Absolutely. German politicos don't really care about this, because the existence of this particular type of spying is something they've always understood. For decades, all diplomats everywhere, if wise, have made the presumption that their unsecured lines are under surveillance by any number of different nations. The only reason they're pretending to care is because their naïve constituents apparently didn't know. They can't simply let the rabble go unanswered.
Good. The Germans have earned their 1,000 year bitch status. In 2945 they can ask the USA to stop spying.
How has asking the fox to guard the henhouse worked out historically? Good for the hens?
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
Nah nothing that profound. Just a statement of basic logic. Too many people trot out the pseudo-logic statement "can't prove a negative" when that is simply a misunderstanding of the real fallacy. Mathematics, for example, contains tons of negative proofs.
Considering how some European countries are so protective of their language, I bet they refused to accept the evidence at hand, because it was in English instead of German.
Aren't you Mr. High and Mighty? Way to take one douche bags comments, assume he's an American (probably is), and then extrapolate that he represents all 310+ million Americans. I wouldn't say you're clear of the asshole label yourself.
We know the NSA eavesdropped on Merkel, it's been admitted, essentially. The more interesting thing to ponder is, was it just one instance of listening to a single call, or has the NSA been listening in on pretty much ALL her calls? I think we know the answer to that. And, is Merkel the only world leader, person of importance, etc., being monitored? I think we know the answer to that, too. Pretty much EVERY world leader, and person of importance is being monitored as long as they are able to, and there's little doubt anyone they can't listen in on is particularly interesting just for that reason alone and gets extra attention. In any event, those who can't be monitored are few and far between.
When a new US President enters office, he's briefed by the intelligence community about all the interesting things known around the world that are not common knowledge. Of course, some of those things are probably bogus because anyone with any brains figures they're being spied upon and the best way to deal with that is to make use of it by feeding it with disinformation. Be that as it may, any President thinks he knows far more about the goings on in this world than the American public (and he probably does, that's not really saying much). The President undoubtedly knows enough to have a jump on the stock market, if he wants it, by knowing what moves world leaders are about to make. And the American public is then expected to be knowledgeable enough to vote intelligently? No, this excess information has turned the American government into a cynical paternalistic and tyrannical force, that more accessible health care, a little bit of social security, lower taxes, television and ready access to guns is supposed to fix. Sorry, but that's just not enough to make it any less cynical, less paternalistic, or less tyrannical.
Of course, supposedly no hard evidence or witnesses.
The general attorney is part of the ministry of justice ... Merkel and other leading politicians have made it clear they do not see any reason to prosecute the U.S. for the privacy invasion the NSA has committed ... now, the general attorney decides there's not enough evidence. Go figure.
All lying bastards ... too bad the general public does not understand (or care) what most politicians are doing ...
Actually, it ensures that we are governed by people who are willing to give up THEIR personal liberties to hold their position, which is very different than the kind of people we are governed by now.
This is my signature. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
Except that these people would be willing to be put under the sword, negating your argument. If you don't want to be potentially put under the sword, stay out of politics.
This is my signature. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
No, the USA "brings charges against" these guys. "Prosecution" requires a trial before a Judge and Jury. Which in turns requires a defendant who is PRESENT for the trial. We have no legal provision for Trial in Absentia in the USA (hence Kerry saying Snowden should "come back to the US to stand trial").
No, the USA simply sends drones to kill unwanted persons without any of that.
...for privacy groups to demand prosecutions just shows how far out of touch with reality they actually are.
Um, the US and various other countries prosecute spies every chance they get, and probably with less evidence than what we have here. This is a show. You're not making any sense.
“He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
The fact that Snowden claimed it happened isn't proof.
For what? For the spying that W and the neo-cons did back in the mid 00's?
From neo-nazis to neo-cons, you still have the same warped ideas and logic.
How soone before fucks like you scream that jews and/or blacks screwed over America? Oh wait. You have been here doing it all along.
Suing for spying? I would expect that type of thing to be an American invention.
Table-ized A.I.
You don't get it. The Sword hangs over the seat of power. If you want to sit there, you are more than welcome, but the Sword stays.
“He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”