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Comcast CEO Brian Roberts Opens Mouth, Inserts Foot

lpress (707742) writes "At a recent conference, Comcast CEO Brian Roberts rationalized charging Netflix to deliver content by comparing Comcast to the Post Office, saying that Netflix pays to mail DVDs to its customers but now expects to be able to deliver the same content over the internet for free. He forgot to mention that the Post Office does not charge recipients for those DVDs. The underlying issue in this debate is who will invest in the Internet infrastructure that we badly need? Comcast has a disincentive to invest because, if things bog down, people will blame content providers like Netflix and the ISP will be able to charge the content provider for adequate service. If ISPs have insufficient incentive to invest in infrastructure, who will? Google? Telephone companies? Government (at all levels)? Premises owners?"

27 of 343 comments (clear)

  1. He also forgot to mention... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    That everyone has to pay for access to the Internet, including Netflix. They've already paid, but Comcast arbitrarily expects them to pay even more just because their own customers want to use Netflix, which makes zero fucking sense.

    1. Re:He also forgot to mention... by cbiltcliffe · · Score: 5, Insightful

      What's more, his analogy actually supports Comcast NOT charging Netflix, rather than the other way around.
      Being a Canadian resident, if I want to send a letter to someone in Canada, I pay Canada Post to deliver it.
      If, on the other hand, I want to send a letter to someone in a different country, say, the USA, or England, I pay Canada Post to deliver it. I do not have to pay the United States Postal Service or Royal Mail to deliver my letter sent from Canada.

      In this analogy, countries and regional postal services are equivalent to ISPs. If I want to send a network packet (letter) to someone on a different ISP (in a different country), I pay my local ISP (postal service) to deliver it. Any ISP (country) beyond that is not my responsibility.

      --
      "City hall" in German is "Rathaus" Kinda explains a few things......
    2. Re:He also forgot to mention... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

      I think you have this wrong unless I'm not understanding correctly what you mean.

      If this was the case for you with your video game services then you already buying into some good data centers into the backbone and then later on some ISP's backbone link is congested they would then charge you extra to deliver your service to their customers even though you've already paid to be in the internet backbone in your data centers! It's ridiculous that any ISP thinks this is reasonable.
      I've paid for my bandwidth, the service (Netflix in this case/your video game service) has paid for their bandwidth now Comcast is double dipping because it knows it can since it has a monopoly.

      Have any ISP in any other country try this if there is competition I bet you they will not last long.

    3. Re:He also forgot to mention... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

      The problem was that Netflix didn't give a shit about some customers because they paid the lowest bidder to be their bandwidth host.

      Concern with network issues is why Netflix has offered CDN appliances at no cost for more than two years to ISPs. Comcast chose to refuse Netflix's offer to colo within their own DCs on their own internal network, which would have reduced latency and bandwidth costs to nothing. I tend to believe that Comcast is more concerned with Netflix's effect on their own content offerings, and pushing the additional costs to Netflix has the additional benefit of making *them* take the PR hit for any price increases that result.

    4. Re:He also forgot to mention... by nurb432 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      What's more, his analogy actually supports Comcast NOT charging Netflix, rather than the other way around.

      Which in my case, i do. I pay Comcast a monthly 'delivery fee'. what is delivered is of no business to them, just like the post office.

      --
      ---- Booth was a patriot ----
    5. Re:He also forgot to mention... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      If that were true, then Comcast wouldn't have a complaint about network congestion - it wouldn't happen.

      Any congestion would only occur at the Netflix connection point. Thus, once again, Comcast doesn't have a problem.

      If the congestion occurs at the COMCAST connection to the backbone, then COMCAST has a problem. Not Netflix. If Comcast wants to service their customers, they need to upgrade THEIR connection to the backbone - not force Netflix to pay a bribe to Comcast to NOT IMPOSE CONGESTION. This is commonly known as "extortion".

    6. Re: He also forgot to mention... by poptix · · Score: 5, Insightful

      You're missing the fact that Netflix is in all of those data centers. The problem is that Comcast is intentionally degrading their peering in those data centers meet-me rooms in an attempt to get more direct customers.

      Furthermore, if you're large enough Netflix will actually supply servers that you can plug into your network to provide the top x percentile of content -- for free.

      This is purely a Comcast wants more money and hates video competition issue.

      --
      Just because you disagree doesn't mean it's not true.
    7. Re: He also forgot to mention... by bill_mcgonigle · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Well it makes a bit of sense for the average ISP - their fees are based on presumed overcommit rates and it's possible to break those assumptions if everybody pumps enough traffic. Everybody is stuck on fixed-rate billing so the grandma doing webmail pays as much as the 10-meg-up-24x7 torrenter when the costs are way different. I even heard an ISP owner say that customers couldn't understand usage-based billing (these are people who pay electric bills). Insistence on fixed-rate billing will inevitably lead to bureaucrats central planning the Internet. If you put emotion before economics, you'll get exactly what you deserve. A libre Internet will eventually require per-packet billed routing (fractional shatoshi?) but if everybody insists on a gratis Internet they won't get the libre one.

      Comcast's anti-competitive bullshit is a red herring in the neutrality debate if you understand that what's really happening is that the overcommit gamble is starting to no longer pay off and they're mostly looking to soften that blow to their failing business model.

      --
      My God, it's Full of Source!
      OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
    8. Re: He also forgot to mention... by Namarrgon · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The point is that, in both cases, the sender/content provider has already paid. If there's an additional cost to transmitting the content across a boundary (different country or different peering service), then in both cases that has already been factored into the cost of sending it, and paid to the local provider (post office or ISP).

      By Comcast's reasoning, the parcel sender should also expect a bill from any countries the parcel travels through, despite paying the full postage when sending. If Comcast wants more money for transmitting content, they need to take it up with their neighbour peering providers, not with the content producers or consumers.

      --
      Why would anyone engrave "Elbereth"?
    9. Re: He also forgot to mention... by Kaenneth · · Score: 4, Insightful

      NBC/Universal should be separated from Comcast/Xfinity as a condition of any more mergers/acquisitions.

    10. Re: He also forgot to mention... by jd2112 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      NBC/Universal should be separated from Comcast/Xfinity as a condition of any more mergers/acquisitions.

      NBC/Universal is not the problem here. The problem is that Comcast's Cable TV offerings make a lot of money (probably more than the Internet business) and as people move away from cable TV to Netflix and other streaming services their ability to ream their customers will be diminished.

      --
      Any insufficiently advanced magic is indistinguishable from technology.
    11. Re:He also forgot to mention... by Opportunist · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Maybe, but the mail doesn't cost more 'cause it goes to my aunt Emma instead of the billing department of the power company next to her.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    12. Re:He also forgot to mention... by drinkypoo · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The problem is, where's the upside for Comcast?

      In a sane world, the up side would be that they got to keep their customers, who would leave and go to someone else if Netflix didn't work properly. In our world, they often have a monopoly on high-speed internet access within a market, and so their customers will simply have to suckit.

      Comcast isn't treating Netflix any better or any worse than anyone else. Comcast has always been consistent in it's policy - if you want access to their network, you pay them.

      And they and all other internet service providers should be prohibited from engaging in that kind of behavior. Content should be separate from transport. It is long past time to force ISPs to behave as common carriers. We forced the telcos, we can force the ISPs.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
  2. Classify net access as a utility? by Mr0bvious · · Score: 5, Insightful

    This may be an absurd suggestion, but given that internet access is somewhat required to participate in society today, perhaps it's time to class internet access as a utility like water and electricity/gas.

    --
    Never happened. True story.
    1. Re:Classify net access as a utility? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      My water pipes and electric lines have been working perfectly 24/7 for several years now. I have never been unhappy with the speed and quality of the water coming from my taps.

      Countries like Japan, S.Korea and Sweden seem to have no problem providing an internet service as high-quality as tap water.

      Meanwhile, US citizens pay $80/month for access to the village well.

    2. Re:Classify net access as a utility? by hawguy · · Score: 5, Informative

      No, not unless you would like your Internet access technologies refreshed and upgraded about as often as your water pipes or electric lines are. Which is to say approximately never.

      In the past 10 years, I have never turned on my water tap and had no water come out. In the past 5 years (which is as far back as I have log files from my UPS), I've experienced 2 power failures lasting longer than a few minutes (I recorded 7 outages lasting less than a few minutes, but some of those were when I unplugged the UPS or turned off a breaker to do some electrical work), one was a regional power outage, and one was caused when a car accident took down a utility pole.

      However, I experience regular internet outages, the last one was last week, and lasted for 3 hours, cable TV was fine, but internet (for me and a neighbor down the street) was out. It took 30 minutes to get someone at Comcast to realize that there was a problem, but they had no idea what was wrong, nor any ETA for a fix.

      So I *wish* my internet connection was managed as well as water and power.

    3. Re:Classify net access as a utility? by schnell · · Score: 4, Informative

      FIOS and its kin will be maintained where they exist already, a pathetic fraction of the country, but not expanded.

      Well, frankly, yes. Verizon has said for several years that the cost of rolling out FTTH for FiOS was so high, and the adoption rate low enough, that they are done with expanding it for the foreseeable future. Verizon is a business, and FiOS just isn't making much profit. And that is with Verizon having no obligation to share its fiber with other providers, unlike the copper TDM network sharing requirements for UNE-P and DSL. If Verizon had to treat FiOS like a utility and/or line share, it would have been deployed in even fewer places or not at all. It sucks, but it's true.

      To be treated as a utility generally means to be compensated in a "cost-plus" environment. You are allowed to charge consumers what it costs you, plus a little margin. Fair enough for water and electric, say, but those are industries where the infrastructure was built a long time ago and a need to upgrade customer-facing physical plant is not really an issue. Bu if you want to build a new power plant, or a sewage treatment plant, you have to go to a state/local Public Utilities Commission and ask permission to raise your rates to cover it, which can take a long time for review and approval. Imagine doing this every time you want to buy a new OC-3, refresh your CPE/modems, or install new wireless towers! Network upgrades will slow to a crawl. Being a regulated utility is good for steady state maintenance and uptime but bad for capital-heavy upgrades and investment.

      People forget that even though the old "Ma Bell" phone network was regularly upgraded, that wasn't because of regulation. Ma Bell was actually a business with a regulated/utility portion (local phone service) and an unregulated portion (long distance and other services). For decades, the unregulated part of their business made enough money that it effectively subsidized the regulated local phone service infrastructure and upgrades. When Ma Bell was broken up, local phone service rates actually went up because the ILECs no longer had the unregulated, profit-making businesses to subsidize them. And it is entirely possible that the same thing would happen if ISPs were treated as utilities and were not using TV, phone or other high-profit services to subsidize Internet access.

      --
      "95% of all Slashdot .sig quotes are incorrect or completely fabricated." -Benjamin Franklin
    4. Re:Classify net access as a utility? by Maxwell · · Score: 4, Informative

      You assume that in order for the internet to be a 'utility' it has to somehow be made available (instantly) throughout the entire United States. That's not how utilities are rolled out. municipal water is still missing in many, many areas of the country that use wells and septic tanks. The west coast of Florida comes to mind. Most of Montana. Heck, lots of farms w/o indoor plumbing well into the 1950's even if they had a well. Electricity - same way. Telephone same way - I was using party lines in the 1980's which was huge improvement over having to walk to the store on the main road to get make a call.

      The OP isn't asking for 10Mbp country wide, tomorrow.. The ask is to start setting standards, start setting prices that include a capital improvement component and start rolling it out. Maybe it will even catch up and pass water!

      And BTW Sweden has far less population density than USA, and more inhospitable terrain to cover...

    5. Re:Classify net access as a utility? by NotSanguine · · Score: 4, Insightful

      This may be an absurd suggestion, but given that internet access is somewhat required to participate in society today, perhaps it's time to class internet access as a utility like water and electricity/gas.

      I doubt you would find anything that would lead to the destruction of Net Neutrality faster.

      Please. Enlighten us. How exactly would reclassifying ISPs as common carriers destroy net neutrality?

      In fact:

      A common carrier holds itself out to provide service to the general public without discrimination (to meet the needs of the regulator's quasi judicial role of impartiality toward the public's interest) for the "public convenience and necessity". A common carrier must further demonstrate to the regulator that it is "fit, willing, and able" to provide those services for which it is granted authority.[Emphasis added]

      What was that you were saying? Oh, that's right. Nothing.

      --
      No, no, you're not thinking; you're just being logical. --Niels Bohr
  3. Re: Govermental oversight by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    It doesn't need regulation, it needs competition. Can't wait for an alternative to ditch fucking Comcast.

  4. Re:treat Netflix like a television network by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Yeah, that's fucking brilliant. Let's package Netflix along with 105 other online services we'll never use, all for only $125 a month.

    Moron.

  5. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  6. The Universal Postal Union by westlake · · Score: 5, Informative

    I want to send a letter to someone in a different country, say, the USA, or England, I pay Canada Post to deliver it. I do not have to pay the United States Postal Service or Royal Mail to deliver my letter sent from Canada.

    Postal settlements for delivery abroad are made peer-to-peer.

    The Universal Postal Union (UPU, French: Union postale universelle) is a specialized agency of the United Nations that coordinates postal policies among member nations.

    In 1969, the UPU introduced a new system of payment where fees were payable between countries according to the difference in the total weight of mail between them. These fees were called terminal dues. Ultimately, this new system was fairer when traffic was heavier in one direction than the other. As a matter of example, in 2012, terminal dues for transit from China to the USA was 0.635 SDR/kg, or about 1 USD/kg.

    As this affected the cost of the delivery of periodicals, the UPU devised a new ''threshold'' system, which it later implemented in 1991. The system sets separate letter and periodical rates for countries which receive at least 150 tonnes of mail annually. For countries with less mail, the original flat rate is still maintained. The United States has negotiated a separate terminal dues formula with thirteen European countries that includes a rate per piece plus a rate per kilogram; it has a similar arrangement with Canada.

    Universal Postal Union

  7. Invest with all the money I pay you scumbags by wiredlogic · · Score: 5, Insightful

    My Comcast bill is $57.99 for 10Mbps internet only. I just got a couple of "threat" letters saying that my "promotional" pricing is about to expire and I will pay even more for their lovely service. Never mind that my promotional pricing actually ended six months ago.

    They are already making money hand over fist off their customers. They should use that money to invest in their own infrastructure improvements.

    --
    I am becoming gerund, destroyer of verbs.
  8. Re: Google is Nashville's only hope by NotSanguine · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The ability to run a server is an overlooked part of net neutrality. The debate now is motivated by content providers who only care about downstream parity with other providers â" but real neutrality would also allow consumers to run their own servers including mail and web servers. That would open up markets for plug servers and turn the privacy debate on its ear. In the long run, it might even prove more important than content provider equality.

    Just so. However, I'd go even farther than that. The last mile protocols (DOCSIS, ADSL, etc.) that have been developed mimic the Consumer (download)/Provider (upload) model.

    This is a direct assault on free speech and free collaboration across the Internet.

    Restricting servers is just another part of the process which limits the promise and potential of the Internet.

    When everyone can have reasonable upload speeds, then everyone can host content, everyone can publish their creative output, each of us can share our thoughts and ideas with the world, the big content providers (including MPAA/RIAA, major newsotainment outlets, the eBays and AmazonMarketplaces of the world) will become less relevant, and we will become freer.

    I know it's a pipe dream. But a fella can dream, can't he?

    --
    No, no, you're not thinking; you're just being logical. --Niels Bohr
  9. I call BS by Comen · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The fact they like to make it sound like they need to invest so badly in bandwidth is BS, only the last mile to the home is so expensive, and with them dropping all analog channel to the home that frees up lots of DOCIS bandwidth going forward so that should help allot. They do need to spend allot of money to drop SDV and go completely digital but they still put that off because they love to rebuild the whole network every couple years on the edge anyway.
    But all the backhaul and backbone fiber connections have been getting increasingly cheaper, most routers had a max interface speed of 10Gbit's, but with 100 Gbit interfaces becoming more common, and the fact that all DWDM optical gear are seeing jumps from 10 Gbit per lambda to 100Gbits per lambda by just swapping out some hardware that is not free but still utilize the same physical fiber but basically make it 10X more for a small upgrade cost.
    I am convinced they only cry about bandwidth costs because that is what they really sell now, and are afraid that its just going to keep getting cheaper and cheaper, which it is.

  10. USPS is not a publisher. by Kaenneth · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The Postal Service also doesn't publish a lot of material it mails for itself.

    Comcast/Xfinity should be forced to separate from their content creation side. (NBC/Universal)