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Brownsville SpaceX Space Port Faces More Regulatory Hurdles

MarkWhittington (1084047) writes "It turns out that the recent FAA environmental impact statement that seemed to give a stamp of approval for the proposed SpaceX space port in south Texas is not the end of the regulatory process, but the end of the beginning. A story in the Brownsville Herald reminds us that the report has kicked off a 30 day review period after which the FAA can allow SpaceX to apply for a launch license to start work on the Brownsville area launch facility. And that in turn kicks off a 180 day process during which the FAA makes the decision whether or not to grant the required licensing and permits.

But even that is not the end of the regulatory hurdles that SpaceX must face before the first Falcon rocket roars into the skies over the Gulf of Mexico. The Longview News-Journal reports that a number of state and federal agencies must give their approval for various aspects of the space port before it becomes operational. For instance, the Texas Department of Transportation must give approval for the movement of utility lines. Environment Texas still opposes the space port since it is close to a wild life reserve and a state park. SpaceX has already agreed to enact measures to minimize the impact the space port would have on the environment, 'such as containing waste materials from the construction and enforcing a speed limit in the control center area.' Environment Texas is not impressed, however. Whether it is disposed to make trouble in the courts is an open question."

41 of 78 comments (clear)

  1. Non News by Frosty+Piss · · Score: 4, Informative

    These are all formalities.

    The US Government knows that they need SpaceX, and Texas definitely wants SpaceX to stay in Texas, and folks, both for the completely obvious reasons.

    Of course there are reviews to take place, and itâ(TM)s my guess that none of this is either a surprise nor going to be a roadblock to the SpaceX Thunderdome in Texasâ¦

    --
    If you want news from today, you have to come back tomorrow.
    1. Re:Non News by hey! · · Score: 5, Informative

      It's all pretty standard for any kind of large project. Why should a spaceport face less environmental review than a shopping mall?

      --
      Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
    2. Re:Non News by p51d007 · · Score: 1, Flamebait

      Shoot, 99% of environmental groups would have a problem if you disturb one blade of grass or one teaspoon of dirt. If they want to live in the stone age, move over to one of the "STAN" countries, or the bulk of Africa and leave the rest of us the heck alone.

    3. Re:Non News by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      If they want to live in the stone age, move over to one of the "STAN" countries.

      Not a good example. The two main cities of Kazakhstan now (and since the late '90s, really) are glittering skyscrapers, expensive cars, and haute couture fashion shops. I found Tajikistan surprisingly well-developed in parts, a consequences of remittences from men working abroad. Kyrgyzstan and Uzbekistan aren't doing too well, but they are entirely comparable to Eastern Europe after the collapse of Communism, which was poor certainly, but nowhere near "stone age" or "Third World".

    4. Re:Non News by 0123456 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Remember "Love Canal"? This is what happens with no regulation, minimal regulation, or simply ignoring regulation.

      You mean the waste dump the local government pushed the company to sell to them and then built a school on, after having been warned that it was, in fact, a waste dump?

      Yes, if only government had been more involved in that debacle, it would clearly have been much better.

    5. Re:Non News by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      From the Wikipedia article that you linked to:

      "The corporation initially refused to sell citing safety concerns; however, the school district refused to capitulate.[1] Eventually faced with parts of the property being condemned and/or expropriated, Hooker Chemical agreed to sell on the condition that the board buy the entire property for one dollar. In the agreement signed on April 28, 1953, Hooker included a seventeen-line caveat that explained the dangers of building on the site."

      Maybe the "Libertarian" was right on this one.

    6. Re:Non News by Austrian+Anarchy · · Score: 1

      Yes, if only government had been more involved in that debacle, it would clearly have been much better.

      Indeed, if only they had. Such as by preventing dumping waste in an inappropriate fashion for decades. But instead they were just doing what they were told, rather than thoroughly investigating the situation.

      That would be the local government that had a map of all of the waste, that was stored in a manner well above existing standards, in the same area that the US Army and other government agencies were using substandard procedures and questionable accounting/maps, right? Also, the same local government that caused the first breech of the material by digging through the area to build a drainage system fo a new road.

      --
      Time Bomber the Book coming soon.
    7. Re:Non News by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      That's bullshit and you know it. The vast majority of environmental groups simply want compliance with existing environmental laws and regs (including proper NEPA review for major projects sanctioned by the gov't, a process conceived by the NIXON administration.

      But hey, the tiny handful of real extreme environmental groups (apparently "99%" in your mind) make a convenient strawman, don't they?

      Shoot, 99% of environmental groups would have a problem if you disturb one blade of grass or one
      teaspoon of dirt.

    8. Re:Non News by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Yep, the government's lack of involvement was quite distressing. They could have prevented the waste from being placed there, they could have removed the waste after it was placed there. They could have made sure the site was secure. They didn't. A company was allowed to put toxic substances in the ground, in a fashion that was simply inappropriate, and the standards of the time were wholly inadequate.

      And this was repeated hundreds, if not thousands of times across the country, in all sorts of circumstances. What, you think Love Canal is the only site on the Superfund list? It's not even the only site in Niagara that was operated by Hooker Chemicals. We're actually quite lucky that it was a school that suffered harm, people paid attention to it, rather than just brushed off.

      Though it still took until the 1980s for things to start to get done. Which meant that in several cases, the parties responsible for poisoning the environment can barely be identified. So the rest of us often end up paying for it.

    9. Re:Non News by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Yes, if only government had been more involved in that debacle, it would clearly have been much better.

      Blaming "government" as a monolithic entity makes just about as much sense as blaming "private enterprise" as a whole for any given problem. You do realize that there are even many agencies whose primary responsibility is ensuring accountability of other gov't agencies, right? There are 4.3M personnel employed by the federal gov't alone, across all sectors of the economy.

      Your handwaving aside, the local (conservative) government and school district were not environmental agencies, and trying to equate the two is nothing more than disingenuous obfuscation.

    10. Re:Non News by khallow · · Score: 1

      Why keep fantasizing about people doing the right thing when it's evident that they wouldn't have done so? I'm sure the world would be a better place, if I invented human immortality in 1997, but that didn't happen either.

    11. Re:Non News by khallow · · Score: 1

      Blaming "government" as a monolithic entity makes just about as much sense as blaming "private enterprise" as a whole for any given problem.

      And it would make sense, if private enterprise as a whole were responsible for a given problem.

    12. Re:Non News by kimvette · · Score: 2

      This regulation makes sense because it holds companies responsible and avoids further polluting an environment we've already damaged.

      Contrast that to idiots who want to block off-shore wind farms because it's "unsightly as I cruise in my yacht" and avoid new LNG depots because of unsightly tanks and extending gas pipelines to small towns despite it being a greener option than burning diesel to heat homes.

      --
      The Christian Right is Neither (Christian nor right). See: Matthew 23, Matthew 25, Ezekiel 16:48-50
    13. Re:Non News by bitSmiter · · Score: 1

      You obviously know nothing about Love Canal, or you wouldn't fetish-ise the role of government.

      Who watches the watchers?

    14. Re:Non News by khallow · · Score: 1

      Thus the existence of mechanisms in place that take steps to correct behavior, in a variety of means.

      But which didn't actually correct behaviors in the Love Canal example.

      But no, inventing human immortality is not a particularly pertinent example, as that would not have been an action you took that harmed others, but a failure for you to achieve something.

      I strongly disagree. You're going to die early because I didn't invent immortality in 1997. I'm really sorry about that.

    15. Re:Non News by Impy+the+Impiuos+Imp · · Score: 1

      Why should a mall have to plow through all that unnecessary crap? This nation is done, historically. We're about 50 years behind Europe in our Great Decline, while the new center of empire, China, continues rocketting upwards.

      See, economics doesn't care why you are hindering free enterprise, only that you are. It could be due to a failed state that cannot secure rights, including property.

      It could be due to mafia or police or official kickbacks everywhere (in India, 10% of the cost of the building is the standard "fee", nudge-nudge, wink-wink, for approval papers).

      It could be due to a regulatory burden and confiscatory tax rate on success that approximates [i]or exceeds[/i] the kickback percentages of corrupt nations.

      [i][b]The economics don't care.[/b][/i]

      He should threaten behind closed doors to move to a less insane environment. The politicians who ladeled this crap on him (to get True Believer votes) know what's up. When it [i]actually[/i] gets in the way...

      --
      (-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
    16. Re:Non News by Impy+the+Impiuos+Imp · · Score: 1

      Well that's lovely. Switching to Opera from my broken-down, pre-Chrome browser on Android busts ability to submit BBCode. Experiments with all four submission interpretation settings, Text (which used to work on Broken Down), html, extrans, forget code) all similarly don't do it.

      This reminds me of the late 1970s, and the book "Why Nothing Works".

      --
      (-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
    17. Re:Non News by Impy+the+Impiuos+Imp · · Score: 1

      Unless... BBCode never worked here and it's been html all along.

      My mind is going...mother...father...the sky glows...so cold...so very cold...

      --
      (-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
    18. Re:Non News by hey! · · Score: 1

      I've been to Europe. You should go too, because if you're right and they're 50 years ahead of us, you should check it out.

      Judging from the state of things in Europe, the Great Decline isn't going to be so bad. Sure a few of the people there don't speak American and a lot of 'em have queer opinions. But the grub, once you get used to it, isn't half bad for foreign muck. And a lot of the places they've got seriously kick-ass beer, and that goes a long way in my book.

      And they've got a lot of hot women. I think it goes with the whole picturesque thing. I've got to admit they're really good at that. I mean, we have majestic mountains, and so do they, but *they* but these crazy cuckoo clock houses on 'em. Yeah, it's kind of gay, but if that's the way things are going we might as well get used to that sort of thing. I mean, what's the point of swimming against the tide of the future if in the end what you're fighting against is houses with fancy fretwork and really good beer. I can live with that.

      --
      Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
  2. Re:of course the environmentalists are against it by ColdWetDog · · Score: 1

    I wonder if these environmentalists have ever been to Florida. Where they launch lots of rockets. Where they launch rockets right next to a wildlife preserve.

    --
    Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
  3. Shades of the Massachusetts' State Fire Marshall by Austrian+Anarchy · · Score: 1

    the Massachusetts' State Fire Marshall, an early form of busybody bureaucrat, forced Goddard to move and this is merely a continuance of that grand governmet tradition.

    --
    Time Bomber the Book coming soon.
  4. Re:of course the environmentalists are against it by Austrian+Anarchy · · Score: 2

    I wonder if these environmentalists have ever been to Florida. Where they launch lots of rockets. Where they launch rockets right next to a wildlife preserve.

    Pretty sure quite a few of them go there to watch and cheer, then go home and say "not here!"

    --
    Time Bomber the Book coming soon.
  5. Re:Shades of the Massachusetts' State Fire Marshal by Austrian+Anarchy · · Score: 3, Informative

    the Massachusetts' State Fire Marshall, an early form of busybody bureaucrat, forced Goddard to move and this is merely a continuance of that grand governmet tradition.

    Correction: my bad. The fire marshall only forced Goddard to move onto a military base, before he moved a few years later to New Mexico.

    --
    Time Bomber the Book coming soon.
  6. Re:of course the environmentalists are against it by tomhath · · Score: 2

    Most "environmentalist" concerns are NIMBY concerns.

  7. Re:of course the environmentalists are against it by meerling · · Score: 1

    The conservationists in Florida have often said the Launch Facility was an amazing boon for the wildlife.
    The conservationists in Texas should be happy about the new spaceport for the benefits it'll bring for wildlife conservation.

    Besides, I've lived in Texas, and it's not exactly an environmental gem in the first place. :P

  8. Mexico by Lawrence_Bird · · Score: 2

    Would probably approve this in 24 hours.

    1. Re:Mexico by CmdrTamale · · Score: 1

      Subject to approval by Los Zetas?
      Could this be reverse DeLorean?
      Cocaine in space!
      What could go wrong?

  9. Re:of course the environmentalists are against it by Mabhatter · · Score: 2

    as long as you don't have disasters, wildlife parks are great place for rocket launches. You want a buffer of several miles between the rockets and the rest of humans... which means 80% of the land is left wild like at Kennedy.

  10. Texas has regulations? by Applehu+Akbar · · Score: 2

    More seriously, I have always wondered why NASA didn't set up its Apollo-era launch facilities in Brownsville to begin with. It's as far south as you can get in the lower 48, it has open water to the west, and it doesn't have that terrible Florida weather that kept delaying every launch. Also unlike Florida, it would have been not nearly so far from the Houston command center.

    1. Re:Texas has regulations? by AJWM · · Score: 1

      Cuba.

      A launch from Florida (in an easterly direction) doesn't look like it might be an attack on Cuba; a launch from south Texas does (or could). The political and technical situations are a bit different today.

      Also, spreading the pork around to multiple states/congressional districts. Texas got the facility in Houston.

      Oh, and what open water is to the west of Brownsville? ;-)

      --
      -- Alastair
    2. Re:Texas has regulations? by Applehu+Akbar · · Score: 1

      Sorry, that was supposed to be 'east'. All launches take place in that direction to get the free boost from Earth's rotation.

      Any danger to Cuba from Brownsville would be as great a danger to Florida - but are both places not decently out of range at that distance?

    3. Re:Texas has regulations? by LWATCDR · · Score: 1

      " Also unlike Florida, it would have been not nearly so far from the Houston command center."
      Cape Canaveral pre-dates NASA in Houston. You see mission control was in Florida for Mercury and Gemini and was moved because... LBJ had some buddies that would make a lot of money if Mission control was moved to Houston. The Eastern Test Range which is what NASA uses for the Cape was already set up and working long before Houston Control.
      It is also not as far south as you can get in the lower 48, that would have been Key West and their was a navy base their but logistics would have been terrible.

      --
      See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
    4. Re:Texas has regulations? by cdrudge · · Score: 1

      I think he was meaning that a launch being seen as a potential missile attack on Cuba. Launching a rocket from the east coast of Florida wouldn't take the flight path in the same general vicinity over Havana. Remember that when Kennedy Space Center was built, it was only a few years after the Cuban Missile Crisis.

      Then again, I guess Texas could also launch an attack on Florida. Hopefully Florida would retaliate in time to destroy Texas before itself was destroyed. The country would just sit back, watch, and enjoy the show. No matter the result, the nation would be better of in the end.

    5. Re:Texas has regulations? by DerekLyons · · Score: 1

      More seriously, I have always wondered why NASA didn't set up its Apollo-era launch facilities in Brownsville to begin with. It's as far south as you can get in the lower 48, it has open water to the west, and it doesn't have that terrible Florida weather that kept delaying every launch. Also unlike Florida, it would have been not nearly so far from the Houston command center.

      Because Brownsville doesn't have as much open water to the East (the direction of interest) as Cape Canaveral does, nor does it have a convenient chain of islands to the East upon which to locate telemetry gathering antennas, and (most importantly)... locating at Brownsville wouldn't have allowed them to piggyback on the built up infrastructure the Eastern Test Range already possessed.

  11. I'm amazed I can still fart by Snotnose · · Score: 1

    without some regulator from somewhere trying to stick a "out of compliance" tag on my ass

    1. Re:I'm amazed I can still fart by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 1

      without some regulator from somewhere trying to stick a "out of compliance" tag on my ass

      Well geeze man, they have been known to kill a bullfrog at 40 paces and strip the paint off your neighbor's house.

      --
      The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
  12. Wait a second by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 1

    Shouldn't the Spaceport be in the US?

    --
    The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
  13. what? by thexfile · · Score: 2

    When did Texas start believing in science?

  14. Actually... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    EVERY important industy and large-scale construction project in the US got started BEFORE the EPA, the FAA, and many other parts of the government were created. EVERY SINGLE ONE.

    The aerospace industry pre-dates the FAA and the EPA. All the major defense companies pre-date them. Elon Musk's SpaceX is extremely unique in being created after all those agencies existed - all it took for his success was: [a] a BILLIONARE with [2] far more drive and conviction than most people and [3] a focus on one product (a rocket) that part of the government NEEDED (for ISS resupply post-shuttle grounding) and even then SpaceX VERY NEARLY failed (there's video online of Musk talking about this). Had the government not NEEDED SpaceX to succeed, it would not have signed a contract with him and handed him piles of cash.... and then he WOULD have failed and there'd be NO examples of post-big-government aerospace success.

    The computer industry similarly pre-dates all the big government regulations. When the Apple II rolled-off the assembly line, it (like the Radio Shack TRS-80's, the IMSAI kits, the KIM kits, etc) was NOT subject to all the limits on things like lead or electronic emissions certifications. The industry we have today could not have been started under the current regulations... so it could not have grown to become big-enough to withstand the regulations we currently have.

    The interstate highway system, all the nation's big science facilities (like the Kennedy Space Center, the Stennis Space Center, Edwards AFB) many vital bits of infrastructure like the Hoover Dam and St Lawrence Seaway, the transcontinental rail routes, etc ALL pre-date the bloated government and its insane regulations.

    The biggest problem with all these regulations is NOT even the regulations themselves (which often seem so reasonable when you read them in the abstract) but rather lies in the sort of people who end-up running the parts of government that enforce them: The government is full of LUNATICS playing with the "levers of power" who do not give a damn about the impact they are having on entire industries (and all the "little" people who depend on those industries). The Obama administration has recently offered us several glimpses of these flunkies: former SecState Hillary Clinton ranting "What DIFFERENCE does it make!" in her testimony over the dead in benghazi, the guy interviewed about his role in the benghazi memos ("Dude, it's been like, two YEARS!"), and the bimbo at the state dept who just this past week indicated her fervent belief that she and her buddies in thier air conditioned offices in DC know mare about whether the recently re-patriated POW was a deserter than the guy's own platoon members. NONE of the afore-mentioned idiots are runnng the EPA, but it's that SORT of person with that SORT of warped world-view that IS

  15. Re:of course the environmentalists are against it by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

    I always see environmentalists telling others how to live, but i never see environmentalists living off the land themselves

    That's because the ones that are living off the land are too busy to slashdot, and you don't get out much.

    --
    "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
  16. Re:of course the environmentalists are against it by Zynder · · Score: 1

    Citation? I don't keep that sort of thing in my backyard, sorry. My cousin has a couple on blocks in his though, so maybe you should bother him.