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Climate Change Prompts Emperor Penguins To Find New Breeding Grounds

An anonymous reader writes Researchers have discovered that emperor penguins may not be faithful to their previous nesting locations, as previously thought. Scientists have long thought that emperor penguins were philopatric, returning to the same location to nest each year. However, a new research study showed that the penguins may be behaving in ways that allow them to adapt to their changing environment. Lead author Michelle LaRue said,"Our research showing that colonies seem to appear and disappear throughout the years challenges behaviors we thought we understood about emperor penguins. If we assume that these birds come back to the same locations every year, without fail, these new colonies we see on satellite images wouldn't make any sense. These birds didn't just appear out of thin air—they had to have come from somewhere else. This suggests that emperor penguins move among colonies. That means we need to revisit how we interpret population changes and the causes of those changes."

215 comments

  1. HUH? by NetNed · · Score: 4, Insightful

    OK, and this is part of climate change how? They have done it for years, but now it's part of "climate change"?

    1. Re:HUH? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Haven't you heard, everything is the result of climate change and anything that contradicts this is a lie cooked up by deniers.

    2. Re:HUH? by PolygamousRanchKid+ · · Score: 4, Insightful

      If you apply for a grant to study penguin breeding grounds . . . you won't get it approved.

      If you apply for a grant to study penguin breeding grounds . . . affected by global climate change . . . you can have all the money you want.

      --
      Schroedinger's Brexit: The UK is both in and out of the EU at the same time!
    3. Re:HUH? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And therefore climate change is a hoax, amirite?

      Predictable denier is predictable.

    4. Re:HUH? by aevan · · Score: 1

      Avianpogenic Global Wandering

    5. Re: HUH? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sup

    6. Re:HUH? by khallow · · Score: 0, Troll

      You don't get it. Climate change is so powerful now, it can move emperor penguins great distances!

    7. Re:HUH? by riverat1 · · Score: 1

      OK, and this is part of climate change how? They have done it for years, but now it's part of "climate change"?

      Climate change is something that can force the emperor penguins to abandon existing colony sites and find new ones.

    8. Re:HUH? by sg_oneill · · Score: 5, Interesting

      OK, and this is part of climate change how? They have done it for years, but now it's part of "climate change"?

      Right. We do the anti-science thing in slashdot these days dont we. *sigh*

      Penguin observations are something I'm fairly closely involved with professionally. That climate change affects penguins isn't controversial amongst researchers, its something we've known for a long time and studies on it go back to the 50s at least. Basically , penguins don't use magic to navigate, but rather fairly detailed memory of environmental conditions and landmarks. "Hey this is where the water turns cold with the shore to my right. I better start swimming south where there are more tasty fish" kind of thing. The problem is, these forms of navigation are super succeptible to environmental change, and whilst climate effects of CO2 are only starting to become widely felt, the effects on the ocean so far have been huge, particularly near the poles Again , none of this is controversial, we know this to be true.

      Now I'm not much of an expert on Emperor penguins (The project I'm working with does obersvations of fairy penguins whos range isn't as far south as the emporers who are strictly ice dudes) but my understanding is they have never been observed to change nesting location so the question is *why*. Well Antarctic is interesting in that it doesn't change an awful lot, theres not a LOT of variables at play here , but one BIG change is that warmer currents coming in caused by climate change (Some marine biologists joke that climate change should be could 'sea change' because it tends to dispropirtionately affect oceans, and a 'sea change' might be your career path if you do climate science and the fundamentalist right regains power and starts defunding evolutionary biologists and climate physics again).

      So its a guess that its the cause, but its a good guess because it seems the most likely candidate, all things considered.

      --
      Excuse the Unicode crap in my posts. That's an apostrophe, and slashdot is busted.
    9. Re:HUH? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Even the most adamant deniers of man's influence on the climate will tell you the climate changes and has done so for years. This isn't about windmills so stop your charge!

    10. Re:HUH? by hsthompson69 · · Score: 0

      C'mon, troll? :) Warmists must be chock full of mod points :)

      At the very least *funny* :)

    11. Re:HUH? by hsthompson69 · · Score: 1, Troll

      Because colony sites never changed before humanity existed? :)

      This is obviously once again an example of the misleading shorthand of "climate change".

      "climate change" always happens. Always will.

      "anthropogenic climate change" is a peculiar proposition in general, and even more suspect when people are trying to make a specific attribution to a region the size of a penguin breeding ground :)

    12. Re:HUH? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's fine. Be careful not to overstate the claim, it is easy to end up affirming the consequent.

    13. Re:HUH? by Pino+Grigio · · Score: 2

      Agree. They've probably gone to find new breeding grounds to get away from all of the biologists and global warming botherers who keep disturbing them.

    14. Re:HUH? by Pino+Grigio · · Score: 0

      Hoax is the wrong word to use. A better phrase would be "malicious deception".

    15. Re:HUH? by dave420 · · Score: 1, Informative

      AGW is not based solely on this observation, and the evidence for it is overwhelming. Yes, climate change has and always will happen, but short of an asteroid strike it's never happened this fast before. Humanity needs the world the way it currently is, otherwise it will face massive issues on top of the normal issues faced every day across the world.

    16. Re:HUH? by sg_oneill · · Score: 1

      Scientists have been talking about CO2 induced climate change and the effects on animals and plants since the late 1800s dude. However regarding penguin migrations its been largely speculative.

      --
      Excuse the Unicode crap in my posts. That's an apostrophe, and slashdot is busted.
    17. Re:HUH? by sg_oneill · · Score: 0

      If you apply for a grant to study penguin breeding grounds . . . affected by global climate change . . . you can have all the money you want.

      Holy shit no. Its well known amongst physicists and other earth sciences that even mentioning climate change can get you in trouble if you get religious types or conservatives on your review panel. Serious dude, climate science is harmful to your career due to all the political interference with funding and the pressures on atmospheric researchers from funding bodies to downplay long term negative consequences of innaction.

      --
      Excuse the Unicode crap in my posts. That's an apostrophe, and slashdot is busted.
    18. Re:HUH? by riverat1 · · Score: 1

      Because colony sites never changed before humanity existed? :)

      Did I say that? No, climate change is but one factor that can affect the location of penguin colonies. It's disingenuous to imply that since the colonies moved before that climate change is not a factor.

    19. Re:HUH? by hsthompson69 · · Score: 0, Troll

      Isn't it disingenuous to imply that climate change never happened before?

      Put another way, isn't it true that climate change has *always* been a factor that can affect the location of penguin colonies, even before humans were ever around?

    20. Re:HUH? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Religious types? Among scientists?

      I'm sure they exist, it's just that they're so few of them that it's laughable to claim that anyone in science would be scared of backlash by a religious review panel.

      Climate change is the new hotness, the latest buzz... kind of like cloud computing and mobile apps. Putting it in your resume/grant application is de rigueur these days. There's an overwhelming consensus, dontcha know?

    21. Re:HUH? by hsthompson69 · · Score: 0

      Wrong.

      http://wattsupwiththat.files.w...

      Professor Richard Lindzen likes to play a game with his audiences. He shows the following slide, and explains that one of the panels represents the global warming over the 52-year period 1895-1946, and the other represents the warming over the 52-year period 1957-2008. He explains that both graphs are to the same scale and invites his audience to guess which is the earlier period and which is the later.

      Now that you've seen climate change just as fast during a period of very *small* human CO2 emissions and a period of very *large* human CO2 emissions, are you willing to give up your religion, or do you have another excuse? :)

    22. Re:HUH? by hsthompson69 · · Score: 0

      Are you asserting that natural climate variation caused by factors other than human CO2 emissions never had an effect on animals or plants?

      Do you honestly believe that penguin migrations never happened before humanity? I mean, is that really all that speculative?

    23. Re:HUH? by top_down · · Score: 2

      OK, and this is part of climate change how? They have done it for years, but now it's part of "climate change"?

      Right. We do the anti-science thing in slashdot these days dont we. *sigh*

      Instead of carefully reading the article you just make up your own convenient conclusions.

      You say that 'Emperor penguins [...] have never been observed to change nesting location so the question is *why*' . The authors of the study challenge this notion. That is what the FINE article is about.

      Relevant quote:
      “Our research showing that colonies seem to appear and disappear throughout the years challenges behaviors we thought we understood about emperor penguins,” said LaRue. “If we assume that these birds come back to the same locations every year, without fail, these new colonies we see on satellite images wouldn’t make any sense. These birds didn’t just appear out of thin air—they had to have come from somewhere else. This suggests that emperor penguins move among colonies. That means we need to revisit how we interpret population changes and the causes of those changes.”

      This means that earlier research that used an assumption about penguin behavior similar to yours might be wrong.

      Do you feel these researchers are doing the anti-science thing too?

      --
      Anyone who generalizes about slashdotters is a typical slashdotter.
    24. Re:HUH? by itzly · · Score: 2

      If you add the trend lines for each of the two graphs, it becomes clear that your statement that the temperature rises "just as fast" is simply wrong. http://www.woodfortrees.org/pl... Of course, the whole comparison is very simplistic. At the very least, some effort should be done to remove influence of other well known factors, such as aerosols, irradiance from the sun, and ENSO cycles.

    25. Re:HUH? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I propose a new corollary to Godwin's Law.

      Anyone who links to wattsupmybutt during a thread about global warming is automatically deemed to lose the argument.

      Nothing useful can be learned from an anti-science site dedicated to promoting ignorance among the mentally incompetent.

    26. Re:HUH? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well known red herring that has no relevance to the issue.

      By mentioning it you demonstrate that you are only interested in helping to keep the gullible in ignorance of the real problem.

    27. Re:HUH? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Your question is irrelevant to the discussion.

      Noone suggests the climate never changed before. The climate changes in response to forcings. The current forcing is pollution by humans. Your witless distraction is nothing but a straw man.

      You sirrah - are either ignorant or a treasonous lying scum. My money is on the latter.

    28. Re:HUH? by sg_oneill · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Are you asserting that natural climate variation caused by factors other than human CO2 emissions never had an effect on animals or plants?

      No. I said we haven't observed those effects on Emporer penguins before.

      Natural climate variations other than human CO2 are a pretty small signal in the scheme of things. The cause of Climate change is overwhelmingly human caused. Why is this still a debate amongst the non scientitific community?

      --
      Excuse the Unicode crap in my posts. That's an apostrophe, and slashdot is busted.
    29. Re:HUH? by sg_oneill · · Score: 1

      Religious types? Among scientists?

      No , I said funding bodies, not scientists. The ones where Senator Cletus McGee gets on board and vetos climate physics research grants because his pastor told him physicists lie as much as biologists do.

      --
      Excuse the Unicode crap in my posts. That's an apostrophe, and slashdot is busted.
    30. Re:HUH? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Because colony sites never changed before humanity existed? :)

      That's completely non-sequitur - unless you're suggesting that climate doesn't change except by human influence. But that's not true - climate has never been a static thing, and is always going to change with or without humans.

      This is obviously once again an example of the misleading shorthand of "climate change".

      "climate change" always happens. Always will.

      "anthropogenic climate change" is a peculiar proposition in general, and even more suspect when people are trying to make a specific attribution to a region the size of a penguin breeding ground :)

      Hang on - are you refuting your own suggestion while pretending that it is someone else's argument? There's a term for that.

      GP did not confuse climate change in general with that specifically of an anthropogenic nature.

    31. Re:HUH? by top_down · · Score: 1

      However regarding penguin migrations its been largely speculative.

      I like how you go from "never been observed" to "largely speculative" in such a short time. That's how science should work when faced with new evidence. The new evidence in this case are satellite images of guano trails. Sounds pretty convincing.

      The press release doesn't mention climate change so I don't know why you keep going on about that. I'm sure these or other researchers will search for a link between these migrations and climate change but for now they are silent on the subject.

      --
      Anyone who generalizes about slashdotters is a typical slashdotter.
    32. Re:HUH? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Are you asserting that natural climate variation caused by factors other than human CO2 emissions never had an effect on animals or plants?

      No. I said we haven't observed those effects on Emporer penguins before.

      Natural climate variations other than human CO2 are a pretty small signal in the scheme of things. The cause of Climate change is overwhelmingly human caused. Why is this still a debate amongst the non scientitific community?

      WHAT?!?!?!

      Snowball Earth

      The Snowball Earth hypothesis posits that the Earth's surface became entirely or nearly entirely frozen at least once, some time earlier than 650 Ma (million years ago).

      Wow, the entire Earth was covered in ice - six hundred and fifty million years ago. Yet you believe natural changes in climate are "pretty small" compared to human induced ones?

      Do you REALLY believe this: "Natural climate variations other than human CO2 are a pretty small signal in the scheme of things."

      Speaking of hundreds of millions of years, This is a plot of Earth's CO2 levels and average temperature over the past 600 million years or so.

      Will you look at it? And maybe actually learn something?

      Well, if you won't, I'll point out a few things about the graph:

      1. Average temperature now is about 12C. Average temperature most of the last 600 million years was about 22C - and that was pretty constant.
      2. CO2 levels are currently at a geologically-measured EXTREME low. The only time in the past 600 million years they've even approached this low was 300 million years ago.
      3. CO2 levels are all over the place - up to 7,000 ppm compared to today's 400 ppm. 2,000 ppm is more typical or "average".
      4. Temperature changes do not correlate well at all with CO2 level changes. Average temperature for the most part appears to be pegged at 22C - significantly warmer than today. Of the four low-temperature "events", two are a low levels of CO2, and two are at high levels of CO2 - one at almost 5,000 ppm CO2.
      5. The recent few decades of climate and CO2 changes don't even rate as noise.

    33. Re:HUH? by NetNed · · Score: 1

      Never been observed? The story says it's been observed for years. Didn't you RTFA? Also, the average ocean temp is about 1 degrees higher then it was in 1880, so I am going to have to doubt that a penguins sense of temp is so sensitive that it can pick up as much as a 1/2 a degree of temp change.

    34. Re:HUH? by angel'o'sphere · · Score: 1

      If you believe that nonsense, you surely can point out who is willing to pay for such an endeavor so I can apply for said funds?

      --
      Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
    35. Re:HUH? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Right. We do the anti-science thing in slashdot these days dont we. *sigh*

      No, we don't. `Climate change` is a weak scientific explanation in a small sample space ( 300 years) of the earth's heating and cooling cycle.
      It's "feel good" or "pop" science as part of an academic agenda to get more funding. Nothing more, nothing less.

    36. Re:HUH? by PolygamousRanchKid+ · · Score: 1

      Here you go: http://ec.europa.eu/programmes...

      . . . the rest is up to your writing capability . . . an excellent submission could also be reused for an Ig Nobel . . .

      --
      Schroedinger's Brexit: The UK is both in and out of the EU at the same time!
    37. Re:HUH? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's because if you mention climate change in your grant request you can get a grant .

    38. Re:HUH? by guises · · Score: 1

      Is this really that hard to follow? Human related climate change has raised the average surface temperature by about half a degree over the last hundred years. Natural climate change can indeed change the surface temperature as well, but much less dramatically. You're talking about a six hundred million year time span and trying to make the claim that slow warming over that extremely long period of time is comparable to the rapid warming that we're experiencing right now.

    39. Re:HUH? by angel'o'sphere · · Score: 1

      Unfortunately those guys don't pay for the nonsense you claim.
      The budgets are fixed years back, and usually are the research programs. So if you want funding for some Penguine research you wait at least five years.
      And on top of that: the climate research budgets won't fund it anyway as it is completely irrelevant to climate models etc.
      Next try?

      --
      Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
    40. Re:HUH? by hsthompson69 · · Score: 1

      When we look at a variance adjusted set, you'll note that the trend slopes are nearly identical:

      http://www.woodfortrees.org/pl...

      And if you don't like hadcrut3, you can try hadcrut4:

      http://www.woodfortrees.org/pl...

    41. Re:HUH? by hsthompson69 · · Score: 0

      That's an assertion, not an argument.

      In fact, there are always forcings of all sorts, and fairly complex mechanisms that tie those forcings together in a non-linear fashion. The "current forcing" includes not only human activity, but all other variations and systems that existed before humanity. The claim that human activity has somehow caused prior, non-anthropogenic forcings to disappear, or to be overwhelmed, is a silly statement.

    42. Re:HUH? by hsthompson69 · · Score: 1

      So, your assertion is now that antarctica, before humanity, didn't vary much in response to current changes, solar fluctuations, milankovich cycles, changes in cloud albedo, or any number of natural factors? That somehow, temperatures in antartica have been bounded by less than 1C of change per century before human CO2 emissions?

      No. I said we haven't observed those effects on Emporer penguins before.

      What was the observation network like pre-1950? Did you not observe emperor penguin migration because they didn't migrate, or because you weren't looking?

    43. Re:HUH? by hsthompson69 · · Score: 0

      That's an assertion, not an argument.

      http://wattsupwiththat.files.w...

      Professor Richard Lindzen likes to play a game with his audiences. He shows the following slide, and explains that one of the panels represents the global warming over the 52-year period 1895-1946, and the other represents the warming over the 52-year period 1957-2008. He explains that both graphs are to the same scale and invites his audience to guess which is the earlier period and which is the later.

      Now that you've seen climate change just as fast during a period of very *small* human CO2 emissions and a period of very *large* human CO2 emissions, are you willing to give up your religion, or do you have another excuse? :)

    44. Re:HUH? by hsthompson69 · · Score: 1

      Hang on - are you refuting your own suggestion while pretending that it is someone else's argument?

      OP wasn't my post.

      GP did not confuse climate change in general with that specifically of an anthropogenic nature.

      It appeared that way. The original post used "climate change" in scare quotes. GP removed those scare quotes. They were put there for a reason, but perhaps removed without thought as to the implication.

    45. Re:HUH? by noiro777 · · Score: 1

      OK, and this is part of climate change how? They have done it for years, but now it's part of "climate change"?

      Right. We do the anti-science thing in slashdot these days dont we. *sigh*

      (Some marine biologists joke that climate change should be could 'sea change' because it tends to dispropirtionately affect oceans, and a 'sea change' might be your career path if you do climate science and the fundamentalist right regains power and starts defunding evolutionary biologists and climate physics again).

      Anyone that disagrees with AGW is anti-science? ...sigh... .

      I used to be believe in AGW since I never bothered to actually question it and just accepted what I was told. After studying it from many angles and keeping as an open mind as possible, the only rational conclusion that I could come up with is that it's a religiopolitical disembowelment of Real Science and it's actually causing real harm in that it's destroying rational & sane environmentalism that actually does matter.

      There are a growing number of Scientists who are starting to see the AGW movement for what it is. Many of them won't be able to publicly admit it for fear of repercussions, but the tide is turning and hopefully this current "dark age" of Science will be coming to end soon.


      "We are not to tell nature what she’s gotta be. ... She's always got better imagination than we have."
      -- Richard Feynmann

    46. Re:HUH? by doccus · · Score: 2

      I couldn't believe how blatantly political that title is, either. The true title should be "Emperor penguins outsmart researchers" ;-)

    47. Re: HUH? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nice try? Do you even listen yourself?

    48. Re:HUH? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Is this really that hard to follow? Human related climate change has raised the average surface temperature by about half a degree over the last hundred years. Natural climate change can indeed change the surface temperature as well, but much less dramatically. You're talking about a six hundred million year time span and trying to make the claim that slow warming over that extremely long period of time is comparable to the rapid warming that we're experiencing right now.

      My points were in reply to this in the GP post:

      Natural climate variations other than human CO2 are a pretty small signal in the scheme of things.

      That's pure bunk. In the scheme of things, Earth's climate has varied much, much more widely than it has in the past 100 years. When the temperatures range from from cold enough to glaciate the entire planet to 25C with tropical plants damn near all the way to the poles, and CO2 ranges from 150 to 7,000 ppm, half a degree and a few tens of ppm CO2 aren't really significant.

      Over the course of its existence, natural variations in Earth's climate dwarf the warming we're seeing now. And we don't really know how fast those natural variations happened.

    49. Re:HUH? by carbonates · · Score: 1

      Yes, climate change has and always will happen, but short of an asteroid strike it's never happened this fast before. Humanity needs the world the way it currently is, otherwise it will face massive issues on top of the normal issues faced every day across the world.

      1. Where did you learn that? Are you aware that when examining data like the rock record it is hard to get resolution below about 50,000 years? I have done advanced magnetostratigraphic studies and I assure you we have NO way of know how fast climate may have changed in the past (below 50K years +/- about 20K years) simply because we cannot date things that precisely when we go past the limits of methods like carbon dating. 2. The human race in some form has been around for a couple of million years now. Climate has changed dramatically over that period. While the coastal cities and other relatively new infrastructure might be poorly thought out for long term climate changes, the species will likely survive any amount of climate change variability it has seen in the past. Plus, one man's "massive issue" is simply another man's "massive opportunity" which is kind of the way I see the whole AGW debate these days- those who are trying to make a certain opportunity for political or economic gain are taking advantage of the idea, while those opposed are trying to maintain status quo and resist what they see as exploitation. Science doesn't take sides- only politicians do that. 3. The 'overwhelming' evidence is just that- evidence- and it remains woefully incomplete. I study paleoclimate of the Cretaceous and often work as far back as the Mississippian. We have very little evidence because we have only a tiny and statistically invalid sample of climate records for this planet.

    50. Re:HUH? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What the what? Both of those graphs cover periods of very *large* human CO2 emissions. Or did you think the Industrial Revolution wasn't really a thing?

    51. Re:HUH? by hsthompson69 · · Score: 1

      Look at the data - CO2 emissions pre-1950 were minuscule in comparison to post-1950:

      http://theresilientearth.com/?...

      Do you really think that the beginning of the industrial revolution was as CO2 intense as the post WWII boom?

  2. So... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It has come to this.

  3. *ALL* Species adapt by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    *ALL* Species, without exception, adapt to their environment. That is how they survive.

    1. Re:*ALL* Species adapt by NeutronCowboy · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Without a doubt. The question is: is the environment changing faster than the species can adapt to it? We, the most adaptable species the earth has ever produced (if measured by how fast we can move into previously inhospitable environments) are still feeling significant effects from global climate change. The pine borer beetle, with its expanded range of warmer temperatures, is impacting whole chunks of communities that will have to adapt to brand new realities. What do you think is going to happen to species without opposable thumbs, a huge brain, and the ability to modify the environment on massive scales?

      --
      Those who can, do. Those who can't, sue.
    2. Re:*ALL* Species adapt by Wycliffe · · Score: 4, Insightful

      *ALL* Species, without exception, adapt to their environment or go extinct. That is how they survive.

      FTFY

    3. Re:*ALL* Species adapt by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      They'll start posting on slashdot.

    4. Re:*ALL* Species adapt by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You got insightful for saying species survive by going extinct.

      Damn this site is crap.

    5. Re:*ALL* Species adapt by itzly · · Score: 1

      Research has shown that the most stable population count is zero.

    6. Re:*ALL* Species adapt by LordLucless · · Score: 1

      We, the most adaptable species the earth has ever produced (if measured by how fast we can move into previously inhospitable environments) are still feeling significant effects from global climate change.

      We are? Name one.

      --
      Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean there isn't an invisible demon about to eat your face
    7. Re:*ALL* Species adapt by NeutronCowboy · · Score: 1

      If you'd read, you'd notice the pine borer beetle. There's the melting of the arctic permafrost, the increased acidification of the ocean and it's impact on marine ecosystems and fisheries... and that's just the ones that are happening right now, and are costing billions right now. Feel free to wait for more change.

      --
      Those who can, do. Those who can't, sue.
    8. Re:*ALL* Species adapt by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Bunkum. (like most denialist crap, bunkum.)

      There is a word that describes species that fail to adapt.

      Extinct.

      Why do you want it to apply to the human race? You are a traitor to your species.

    9. Re:*ALL* Species adapt by AlterEager · · Score: 1

      *ALL* Species, without exception, adapt to their environment. That is how they survive.

      Well no. Some species don't manage to adapt to changes in their environment.

      It's survival of the fittest, not survival of all.

    10. Re:*ALL* Species adapt by DavidMZ · · Score: 1

      *ALL* Species, without exception, adapt to their environment or go extinct. That is how they survive or don't.

      FTFY

      FTFY

    11. Re:*ALL* Species adapt by LordLucless · · Score: 1

      Your definition of "significant" seems to be pretty low-bar, especially when talking about the human species as a whole - as opposed to, say, a small community in one of the least populated states of a single country.

      --
      Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean there isn't an invisible demon about to eat your face
  4. No Evidence by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Any connection to "climate change" was purely speculative on the part of the article writer.

    The research actually suggested that Emperor Penguins always had changed locations periodically. There is no evidence that modern times are in any way different.

    The only thing this is "evidence" of is that lots of people today will try to blame anything and everything on "climate change".

    1. Re:No Evidence by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 0

      Addendum:

      If anything, this research actually weakens any argument that recent relocations are due to climate change, because it suggests that that they always have done it, long into the past.

    2. Re:No Evidence by drinkypoo · · Score: 4, Insightful

      If anything, this research actually weakens any argument that recent relocations are due to climate change, because it suggests that that they always have done it, long into the past.

      It does no such thing. It neither strengthens or weakens that argument. The climate has changed before. This particular change is projected to be more severe than prior changes which these penguins have been through, which is why it's interesting.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    3. Re:No Evidence by NeutronCowboy · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Actually, it used to be speculated that changes in nesting populations of Emperor Penguins might have been due to Climate Change. Instead, this particular research indicates that those changes might be fairly normal migrations between nesting sites.

      What we have here is science using new data to falsify an old assumption. Science to the rescue! As is article-reading.

      --
      Those who can, do. Those who can't, sue.
    4. Re:No Evidence by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 3, Insightful

      It does no such thing.

      Yes, it does. The argument was thus: the Emporer Penguins are changing locations, and they were not known to do that before. Therefore a possible cause is "climate change".

      However, this research says that they did, in fact, do it before. Therefore the explanation of man-driven climate change as a probable cause IS weakened, because it has occurred in the past due to other causes. Q.E.D.

      This particular change is projected to be more severe than prior changes which these penguins have been through, which is why it's interesting.

      Projected by whom? Please be specific. History says otherwise. It has been both warmer and colder before, in the Antarctic. In recorded history, even. In fact, even in just the last century. Look up 1937.

    5. Re:No Evidence by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 2

      I did read the article and the original article from which the linked article got its information.

      You are making the same point I was, in different words. But my comment was about OP, in particular.

      The original article does not even contain the word "climate", much less "climate change".

    6. Re:No Evidence by rubycodez · · Score: 0

      there is no way any "climate change" in the next hundred years will be anywhere as near severe as has occurred in earth's past

    7. Re:No Evidence by drinkypoo · · Score: 2

      there is no way any "climate change" in the next hundred years will be anywhere as near severe as has occurred in earth's past

      This statement is both obviously false as written, and obviously false as you obviously intended it. Care to take another stab at it?

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    8. Re:No Evidence by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The current climate change is man-driven.

      We don't know this. We can't conduct any experiment with any type of control. Given how badly recent climate projections have seriously overestimated temperature increases, how much do we really know?

      I've seen way too many warnings of a coming apocalypse because CO2 levels in the world's atmosphere are approaching 400 ppm, which is high, right? Well, it's high only by recent levels - CO2 levels in the Earth's atmosphere over the past few million years have been at all-time lows. CO2 levels on Earth have averaged probably about 2,000 ppm when measured over tens or hundreds of millions of years, and have probably peaked at over 6,000 ppm.

      If climate change caused them to change locations in the past, then the argument for the penguins relocating due to man-driven climate change is strengthened, not weakened.

      And how would we know why the penguins did anything as a group in the past? We don't have anywhere near enough data to even guess why.

      The real question you should be asking is why it's so important to YOU that penguins moving from one nesting area to another be blamed on human-caused climate change.

      Why is that so important to YOU?

    9. Re:No Evidence by drinkypoo · · Score: 2, Insightful

      We don't know this.

      You don't know this. The rest of us are counting on physics to still work today like it did yesterday.

      I've seen way too many warnings of a coming apocalypse because CO2 levels in the world's atmosphere are approaching 400 ppm, which is high, right? Well, it's high only by recent levels - CO2 levels in the Earth's atmosphere over the past few million years

      We don't care what it was like outside the past few million years, the only time the planet has been hospitable for beings like us for any lengthy period of time.

      And how would we know why the penguins did anything as a group in the past? We don't have anywhere near enough data to even guess why.

      Yes, and that's why this finding doesn't actually tell us anything about that. But it doesn't condemn the idea, either.

      The real question you should be asking is why it's so important to YOU that penguins moving from one nesting area to another be blamed on human-caused climate change.

      Why is that so important to YOU?

      Because I live here, and if it's true, it's another interesting data point. If you don't live here, by all means, don't worry about it.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    10. Re:No Evidence by khallow · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The rest of us are counting on physics to still work today like it did yesterday.

      And if you had a clue what the physics was, you'd have a point. Earth is not a toy one-dimensional model, the atmospheric radiative model of Arrhenius.

      Because I live here, and if it's true, it's another interesting data point.

      No, he asked why was it so important that this "data point" (and many other such things) be blamed on human-caused climate change? I think I'll answer that question.

      It's because it fits the myth that humans are bad. The mechanics of the rationalizations and what is actually considered good and evil change from generation to generation, but the myth never does. I think people have psychological needs for such myths, perhaps to cope with the unpleasant aspects of reality.

    11. Re:No Evidence by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      We don't care what it was like outside the past few million years, the only time the planet has been hospitable for beings like us for any lengthy period of time.

      That just says it all.

      That has to be the stupidest thing I've even seen posted. "the past few million years, the only time the planet has been hospitable for beings like us for any lengthy period of time".

      ROFLMAO.

      And you probably really do think you're smarter than average.

      Holy crap. I never ceased to be amazed at humans. We can put a person on the fucking moon and bring him back safely. Then there's you...

      Too damn bad you aren't just a wee bit smarter. Then maybe you would have figured out how to plug in the toaster your mom gave you for a tub toy.

    12. Re:No Evidence by I'm+New+Around+Here · · Score: 1

      So you are saying that in the next two hundred years, either A) we will see an ice-free Antarctica; or B) we will see glaciers covering all of Canada.

      Because that is how severely the climate has changed in the past.

      --
      If you think I voted for Trump because of this post, you're wrong. I voted for Dr. Jill Stein of the Green Party. Again.
    13. Re:No Evidence by rubycodez · · Score: 1

      statement is true as written, read with more concentration.

      Did you know the average global temperature was higher from 7550 and 3550 BC than now?

      " Early Holocene (10,000 to 5000 years ago) warmth is followed by ~0.7C cooling through the middle to late Holocene (5000 years ago), culminating in the coolest temperatures of the Holocene during the Little Ice Age, about 200 years ago. This cooling is largely associated with ~2C change in the North Atlantic. Current global temperatures of the past decade have not yet exceeded peak interglacial values but are warmer than during ~75% of the Holocene temperature history." -- A Reconstruction of Regional and Global Temperature for the Past 11,300 Years by Shaun A. Marcott Jeremy D. Shakun Peter U. Clark Alan C. Mix

    14. Re:No Evidence by riverat1 · · Score: 1

      there is no way any "climate change" in the next hundred years will be anywhere as near severe as has occurred in earth's past

      I challenge to find any period in Earth's history outside of something like an asteroid strike or a supervolcano eruption where climate changed as fast as it is during the present period.

    15. Re:No Evidence by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 2

      It's because it fits the myth that humans are bad. The mechanics of the rationalizations and what is actually considered good and evil change from generation to generation, but the myth never does. I think people have psychological needs for such myths, perhaps to cope with the unpleasant aspects of reality.

      It also gives government excuses for draconian legislation which gives them orders of magnitude more control over parts of the economy than it ever had before.

      (By the way: there were numerous problems with Arrhenius' apparatus. Not the least of which is that it was, in effect, a real greenhouse... and the "greenhouse effect" is a different effect than the one that actually warms greenhouses.)

    16. Re:No Evidence by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 1

      Wrong. The current climate change is man-driven. If climate change caused them to change locations in the past, then the argument for the penguins relocating due to man-driven climate change is strengthened, not weakened. The exact opposite of what you claim.

      This is just plain a silly thing to say. Logic 101:

      Person 1: "We think X causes Y because: we have not observed Y before now, and X is a recent phenomenon, so it is reasonable to suppose that X may be causing Y."

      Person 2: "Um... my recent research shows that Y has been happening continually since time immemorial."

      Person 1: "Shit."

    17. Re:No Evidence by khallow · · Score: 1

      I challenge to find any period in Earth's history outside of something like an asteroid strike or a supervolcano eruption where climate changed as fast as it is during the present period.

      Well, there we go. Already making exceptions. Recall that the criteria was "This particular change is projected to be more severe than prior changes which these penguins have been through, which is why it's interesting." They've been through a lot including supervolcano eruptions.

    18. Re:No Evidence by drinkypoo · · Score: 0

      Current global temperatures of the past decade have not yet exceeded peak interglacial values

      How you read that and got the idea that the temperatures will not exceed those values should be a mystery to me, but sadly, I know just how you did it. You shut off your brain.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    19. Re:No Evidence by I'm+New+Around+Here · · Score: 1

      The argument is the same with other species too. The other one I think of is about alligators or crocodiles. Their sex is determined by temperature of the eggs during development, so global warming is going to make them all become one sex, and then they'll go extinct through lack of mates.

      This ignores the fact that the species has been around for millions of years, and certainly in that time has been in hotter and colder conditions. Yet the species survives.

      This is part of the problem I have with the global warming topic. Stupid claims that are easily countered get thrown about as if they are solid proof of impending doom.

      --
      If you think I voted for Trump because of this post, you're wrong. I voted for Dr. Jill Stein of the Green Party. Again.
    20. Re:No Evidence by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      And if you had a clue what the physics was, you'd have a point. Earth is not a toy one-dimensional model, the atmospheric radiative model of Arrhenius.

      I have a good idea of the relative size of some of the factors, and we are larger than some of them that nobody disputes have an effect on global climate. And hey, that's a nice straw man there. How are you getting along?

      It's because it fits the myth that humans are bad.

      That is a staggeringly stupid thing to say, and you are a stupid person for saying it. First of all, I'm not trying to characterize anything as "good" or "bad" here, only "good" or "bad" for humans. And current human lifestyles are bad for human life as a whole.

      I think people have psychological needs for such myths,

      The myth is that we can wipe our ass with the biosphere continually and still live here.

      If you need to feel bad to change your habits, then I hope you do. Otherwise, all else equal I would prefer that you feel good about yourself, because hurt people hurt people.

      perhaps to cope with the unpleasant aspects of reality.

      The reality is that humans have the ability to affect not just global climate but in fact levels of biomass. Check out sometime how much more humans and our domesticated animals outmass everything else, you will apparently shit a twinkie because you don't think we can have much effect. We release orders of magnitude more CO2 than volcanism, which is already pointed at as a driver of climate. You want to believe that won't have any effect, but we know beyond any reasonable question that releasing all this CO2 is going to have consequences, and we have a fairly clear notion of what they're going to be.

      Meanwhile, global temperatures continue to rise, and the explanations provided by denialists continue to fall short of explaining them while we have perfectly good explanations already. But the denialists are the ones who think that anyone who would crap up the biosphere must be a bad person, and that they can't possibly be bad people, thus they cannot be crapping up the biosphere. Well, think again, jack. You are. I am too, but probably less because I typically use fairly little energy. (Cue the fat jokes.) You want to believe that you're a good person? Fine. But that doesn't absolve you of your share of the responsibility that you incur by, basically, consuming energy.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    21. Re:No Evidence by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      So you are saying that in the next two hundred years, either A) we will see an ice-free Antarctica; or B) we will see glaciers covering all of Canada.

      It is within the realm of possibility. that we should have an ice-free Antarctica. And since the melting continues to outpace expectations, that's how I would bet.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    22. Re:No Evidence by khallow · · Score: 2

      The myth is that we can wipe our ass with the biosphere continually and still live here.

      If you need to feel bad to change your habits, then I hope you do. Otherwise, all else equal I would prefer that you feel good about yourself, because hurt people hurt people.

      Thank you for providing supporting evidence. We're not actually doing that, but you choose to believe it anyway.

    23. Re:No Evidence by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      Thank you for providing supporting evidence. We're not actually doing that, but you choose to believe it anyway.

      You say we aren't, and Chevron says we aren't, and BP says we aren't, and scientists say we are. Obviously I don't care what you have to say about it, who the fuck are you? I'm not going to listen to Big Oil, which has been lying about its environmental impact all along. Would people really do that? People do. Maybe I should listen to the people who know the most about this stuff. That is, not you.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    24. Re:No Evidence by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      The argument is the same with other species too. The other one I think of is about alligators or crocodiles. Their sex is determined by temperature of the eggs during development, so global warming is going to make them all become one sex, and then they'll go extinct through lack of mates.

      HAHAHAHA

      This is part of the problem I have with the global warming topic. Stupid claims that are easily countered get thrown about as if they are solid proof of impending doom.

      HAHAHAHAHA

      And also some more HAHAHA.

      The fact that some people can't understand that some of the critters who lay eggs in the sand will normally place them where they won't get hot enough, and that some of them will normally place them where they'll get too hot does not in fact have any bearing on anything except their ignorance and/or stupidity. Meanwhile, you're making the logical fallacy of assuming that all people who disagree with you on this subject use stupid arguments. You think you're smart, but you're actually acting just like the people you claim to have a problem with.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    25. Re:No Evidence by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Thank you for providing supporting evidence.

      "I've noticed that ever since it became popular to play scientist in the climate change debates, that demands for citations have gotten ridiculous."

      "Slashdot looks like the kind of place where rank amateurs go to play scientist, demanding things like "citations", "credible publications/institutions", and other gobble-gook."

    26. Re:No Evidence by I'm+New+Around+Here · · Score: 1

      I never said all people who I disagree with use stupid arguments. I said that stupid arguments are used to support global warming, or the bad effects it will have.

      Since you can't even get that part of my post right, what are the chances your others comments are clearly thought out?

      --
      If you think I voted for Trump because of this post, you're wrong. I voted for Dr. Jill Stein of the Green Party. Again.
    27. Re:No Evidence by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How is joe public going to respond if all this turns out to be wrong? I've become more and more convinced this overconfident climate-based prediction stuff is meant to undermine science.

    28. Re:No Evidence by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      FACT A: CO2 keeps the planet warm. more of it will make the planet hotter. if you want to disprove this : go to youtube, there are a number of experiments that you can use to disprove it. do you have any other results ? write to nature, and to the nobel price comittee.
      Oh, and if that's true, you need a new explanation for the dozens of degrees the surface of the earth is warmer than it should be. (same for venus)
      FACT B: humanity is spewing a huge amount of CO2 into the atmosphere. see the amount of oil, coal, gas, wood burning vs. CO2 levels since the industrial age. they match up. Please run the numbers.
      FACT A+B = human-induced climate change.

    29. Re:No Evidence by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There are none so blind as those who refuse to see.

      Grow up and get an education for fuck's sake.

    30. Re:No Evidence by AlterEager · · Score: 1

      The myth is that we can wipe our ass with the biosphere continually and still live here.

      If you need to feel bad to change your habits, then I hope you do. Otherwise, all else equal I would prefer that you feel good about yourself, because hurt people hurt people.

      Thank you for providing supporting evidence. We're not actually doing that, but you choose to believe it anyway.

      http://www.woodfortrees.org/plot/esrl-co2

    31. Re:No Evidence by Pino+Grigio · · Score: 1

      Wrong. The current climate change is man-driven.

      An assertion for which there's no evidence whatsoever, given that the current climate change is well within the range of natural variation. Of course you could manufacture some evidence by "adjusting" real world data, but that's not quite the same as the real thing is it.

    32. Re:No Evidence by Errol+backfiring · · Score: 1

      Any connection to "climate change" was purely speculative on the part of the article writer

      Indeed. It was probably the mortgage bubble that was responsible for this.

      --
      Nae king! Nae laird! Nae yurrupiean pressedent! We willna be fooled again!
    33. Re:No Evidence by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      How is joe public going to respond if all this turns out to be wrong? I've become more and more convinced this overconfident climate-based prediction stuff is meant to undermine science.

      You mean, what if we build a better planet, and it was all for nothing? Whoops.

      I've become more and more convinced this overconfident climate-based prediction stuff is meant to undermine science.

      I imagine the same is said about each new unpopular fact. But hey, it is not outside the realm of possibility that some heretofore unknown factor will step in and regulate the environment. Any ideas what that might be? Nobody else, either.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    34. Re:No Evidence by angel'o'sphere · · Score: 1

      I place a black stone into the sun.
      I put a kettle of water on my gas stove.

      After some time the stone is so hot I can bake eggs on it.
      After some time the water in my kettle is boiling so I can boil eggs in it.

      Both have the 'same variation', one is more natural one is more man made. The current climate change is man made and that has nothing to do with the fact that there have been 'similar natural variations' ... especially as those never have happened in such a short time frame.

      --
      Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
    35. Re: No Evidence by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Do you really want to live through the equivalent to some of the great extinction events of the past?

    36. Re:No Evidence by khallow · · Score: 1

      and scientists say we are.

      And scientists say we aren't too. Not everyone has drunk the kool aid.

      Obviously I don't care what you have to say about it, who the fuck are you?

      I'm the person for whom you are volunteering to be an example of the psychological phenomenon of original sin or whatever it's morphed into these days. Obviously, I don't care that you don't care. But thanks for the demonstration.

    37. Re:No Evidence by khallow · · Score: 1

      So you know how to cite, maybe. Do you know how to reason or argue coherently too? Else, you're just another example for my little argument. I find it a bit bizarre how people came eagerly jumping into this thread exhibiting exactly the sort of behavior I've been tut-tutting.

    38. Re:No Evidence by khallow · · Score: 1

      Fact C: you ignore all the other ways humanity changes climate. Somehow emitting CO2 is more important than habitat destruction or desertification (both which on their own cause more harm), for example. Or overpopulation which drives all of these problems.

      Now, I'm aware that humanity has the capacity to deal with more than one problem at a time. But even so, that doesn't explain why so much of the world chooses to prioritize AGW over more important problems like the ones I mention.

    39. Re:No Evidence by khallow · · Score: 1

      Does that link have some relevance to the matter at hand? Or are you volunteering to be example 3?

      I'm aware that CO2 levels are increasing, likely due to human activity. I also don't consider that a demonstration that humanity is "wiping its ass" with the biosphere.

    40. Re:No Evidence by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      To most of you idiots, "building a better planet" is used much the same way as the phrase "we had to destroy the village in order to save it".

    41. Re:No Evidence by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 1

      I committed an error in my earlier comment. You mentioned Arrhenius, but I was thinking of de Saussure, whose apparatus was what gave Fourier the "trapping radiation" idea.

      But as we now know, de Saussure's apparatus was in effect a real greenhouse, and "radiative trapping" was not what caused it to warm.

      So Fourier's whole idea about "atmospheric trapping of radiation" was pure speculation, based on his mistaken assumptions about how de Saussure's device worked.

    42. Re:No Evidence by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      To most of you idiots, "building a better planet" is used much the same way as the phrase "we had to destroy the village in order to save it".

      There is no evidence that there must be any negative economic impact from bioremediation, which creates jobs; or from complying with environmental law, which creates jobs; or from research into the next generation of technologies after the ones we already have that we're not even using, which creates jobs. Indeed, so far carbon tax schemes create jobs, e.g. in B.C. They're not perfect — some Canadians actually buy fuel in the USA specifically to evade their local carbon taxes, and the same principle can be used generally to abstract carbon away to other producers — but they're still positive (if less than hoped-for) in every way so far, whether you look at carbon reduction or job creation. As it turns out, it's cheaper and easier and thus takes less manpower to not meet your obligations than to meet them. Who'd have thought, besides anyone capable of thinking?

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    43. Re:No Evidence by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The thing that convinced me something is wrong is the venus atmosphere. Look at the temperature at around 1 atm pressure, it is very close to that predicted just due to being closer to the sun (1.176x Earth), this tells me there is some negative feedback that maintains equilibrium temperature. Probably increased albedo. That would not mean pumping CO2 into our atmosphere will have no effect, only that average temperature is a poor metric by which to measure this and current theories will not be capable of making accurate predictions.

    44. Re:No Evidence by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      And scientists say we aren't too. Not everyone has drunk the kool aid.

      The vast majority of credible scientists are saying that we are. No one except denialists gives two shits what a tiny minority has to say.

      I'm the person for whom you are volunteering to be an example of the psychological phenomenon of original sin or whatever it's morphed into these days.

      That is an unsurprisingly staggeringly stupid read of the situation, coming from you. This has nothing to do with presumed guilt, this has to do with your actual actions and choices. It's not guilt given to you for free, it's guilt you've earned.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    45. Re:No Evidence by rubycodez · · Score: 1

      the temperatures have not exceeded those values, nor is there any reason to believe they will even by people accepting the exaggerated nonsense from the IPCC

      I speak of reality and facts, you are fearing things that don't exist and are not true. who has shut off their brain?

    46. Re:No Evidence by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      So you know how to cite, maybe. Do you know how to reason or argue coherently too? Else, you're just another example for my little argument.

      I'm pretty sure that was for everyone else's benefit, not for yours, so that we can see that you've made this same stupid, tired argument before and it's been conclusively, fully answered. And that prior answer to you, which I will paste here for those too lazy to follow links, is as follows:

      It's the people trying to evaluate evidence who are the amateurs playing scientist. People looking at temperature graphs, reading about feedbacks, talking about cloud cover, solar variation, and cosmic rays, they're the ones pretending. There's a reason researchers do ~9 years of school before they're trusted to go out on their own, science is hard. It takes a lot of expertise to know what data means, to know if that temperature trend is statistically significant or just chance. To understand what evidence matters and what it means, that's not something you can understand from a blog post.

      In other words, you erroneously consider yourself to be an expert, and your tut-tutting is just as inappropriate now as it was then... last year. Between then and now, you have learned nothing of import, and still think you're smarter than the majority of people who actually are qualified to make a decent evaluation of the situation. I don't know if I've learned anything either, but since I already believed that I should listen to the people who are actually qualified to make the best possible determination of the facts instead of useful idiots who are willing to repeat anything money tells them, I clearly had less to learn.

      To head off any idiocy related to that statement, I don't think it makes me a better person, or necessarily even smarter. I don't have a formal scoring system that would tell me, even given sufficient familiarity with your life, whether you really ought to have learned that lesson by now. Maybe you've been in a coma for the last ten years. Maybe one day you'll learn to respect the opinions of people who know more than you do about a subject, and you can reap the rewards as well. Or perhaps this is just a particular blind spot for you, and you can trust a hairdresser or a plumber because you feel like what they do is simple and thus well-understood, but you can't trust a physicist, chemist, or climatologist because what they do is complicated and there's still a lot to learn in their field. But if they're at least as intelligent as you are (how special do you feel?) and notably better-educated, then they're probably better-suited to make the determination than you are.

      This should not be news to you, and I should not have to explain it at length and with such small words, but since there's no evidence that you are in fact making any progress on this front, I thought I might try to help you out.

      In the meantime, study up on cognitive dissonance. It's the reason why you defend the indefensible.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    47. Re:No Evidence by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      It also gives government excuses for draconian legislation which gives them orders of magnitude more control over parts of the economy than it ever had before.

      That is an argument for citizen involvement in government, not against government involvement in environmental protection.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    48. Re:No Evidence by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      the temperatures have not exceeded those values, nor is there any reason to believe they will

      Not only is there plenty of reason to believe that they will (many of the systems we have long taken for granted are already past the point of collapse, probably including the amazon which in fast is well past credible tipping points) but my point was that you presented as proof something which does not support your assertion. Your citation does not say what you want it to say. If you meant to provide a citation, try again. If you don't, no one should take your assertion seriously.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    49. Re:No Evidence by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      The thing that convinced me something is wrong is the venus atmosphere.

      This sounded interesting to me until I looked it up. Then I found the most horribly garish web page I have seen in ages produced by a statistician at SJSU. It talks about Venus and Earth and concludes that they are both experiencing temperature effects due to CO2 which agree with models. But this is what he had to say about the entire situation:

      The best estimate of the rate of global warming is 0.7 of 1 ÂC per century, of which 30% or 0.2 of 1 ÂC is due to the increased intensity of the Sun's radiation. This leaves 0.5 of 1ÂC per century as the rate of global warming due to increasing carbon dioxide. This is just about the same as given by more elaborate climate projection models. However it should be noted that the current rate of increase of carbon dioxide is 0.4 of 1% per year. At this rate it will take about 176 years for the concentration of carbon dioxide to double. The climate modelers assume a rate of increase of 1% per year, which means the the level of carbon dioxide will double in about 70 years. Why do the climate modelers assume a rate of increase 2.5 times the actual rate of increase? Apparently for no other reason that it helps generate scary projections.

      The problem with the notion of "scary projections" is that the unindustrialized world would very much like to industrialize, thankyouverymuch, and if they can then they will. Right now that means more carbon release. We would expect the rate of change to increase, and since there is no proposed mechanism by which the rate of fixing to increase simultaneously, let alone equivalently, we would expect CO2 levels to rise.

      That would not mean pumping CO2 into our atmosphere will have no effect, only that average temperature is a poor metric by which to measure this and current theories will not be capable of making accurate predictions.

      We can measure CO2 directly, although much more detailed monitoring is needed to actually understand concentrations in detail, since they are uneven. The cost of actually doing this, and in fact building small weather stations to gather more information about other interesting and important details of local weather patterns, is really not very high in comparison to other human projects. It is difficult to imagine why we have not gone ahead and written the checks on this subject so that we can better find out what is in fact happening here on Earth without invoking everyday mundane conspiracies and their influence, the good old funding shuffle.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    50. Re:No Evidence by Pino+Grigio · · Score: 1

      I don't think you can have it both ways (though of course you will try to). If climate change is within the bounds of natural variation (which it is) then you have absolutely no justification for asserting that it's man-made. This is the fundamental error in your thinking. Worse, you put forward no fact that would falsify the hypothesis that it is man-made, which makes your assertion unscientific as well.

    51. Re:No Evidence by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      "Variations like this could happen for natural causes" doesn't imply that "this variation is happening for natural causes".

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    52. Re:No Evidence by angel'o'sphere · · Score: 1

      The fundamental error in the thinking is yours.
      The natural variation is happening over millennia in some cases and usually over millions of years.
      The actual happening is over 200 years, in fact less.
      Variation means: difference and fluctuation between max and min. Naturally that might take a long time, artificial it can be pretty fast.
      Our parent claims: because there are long term natural fluctuations, we can not be sure about this short term fluctuation. Actually, it is no fluctuation anyway but a determined upward trend.

      And please stop this nonsense about 'unscientific' at least on my diploma it says I'm a scientist.

      --
      Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
    53. Re:No Evidence by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That link does not discuss my point. Compare temperatures in the Venus atmosphere to those of the earth at the same pressure, you will find (for troposphere pressures, which correspond to the Venus cloud layers) that the Venus temperatures are very close to 1.176X Earth temperature at the same pressure.

    54. Re:No Evidence by rubycodez · · Score: 1

      Citatation prove and says exactly what I said, we have not exceeded those past peak temperatures.

      Now you are trying to claim possession of some magic crystal ball and are making speculation about the future. that is nonsense.

    55. Re:No Evidence by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      Compare temperatures in the Venus atmosphere to those of the earth at the same pressure, you will find (for troposphere pressures, which correspond to the Venus cloud layers) that the Venus temperatures are very close to 1.176X Earth temperature at the same pressure.

      That's really quite irrelevant, because you can only find earth-atmosphere pressures 50km above the surface of Venus. Why did you expect anyone to care?

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    56. Re:No Evidence by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why do you say it is irrelevant? If anything it seems that comparing temperatures at different pressures (eg surface temps) is irrelevant.

    57. Re:No Evidence by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      Citatation prove and says exactly what I said, we have not exceeded those past peak temperatures.

      Uh no. What you actually said is the following:

      there is no way any "climate change" in the next hundred years will be anywhere as near severe as has occurred in earth's past

      And then, you said

      the temperatures have not exceeded those values, nor is there any reason to believe they will

      I am taking exception with your entire first statement ("there is no way any "climate change" in the next hundred years will be anywhere as near severe as has occurred in earth's past") and the latter part of your second statement, which is similar ("nor is there any reason to believe they will [exceed those values]").

      First, what I said first: This statement is [...] obviously false as written. It is obvious that during the next hundred years, climate change will occur which is as severe as climate change which has occurred in Earth's past. Not all of the climate change which occurred in Earth's past was severe at all. Next, what I said second, and obviously false as you [...] intended it. You offered as evidence a citation with no link, which I guess happens, and then cited from the citation a paragraph which did not support your argument. Assuming that the entire study probably did [not do] the same, I tracked down a commentary by the authors of the cited study, and they in fact disagree with you completely. Not only do they say that they "compare the Holocene paleotemperature distribution with published temperature projections for 2100 CE, and find that these projections exceed the range of Holocene global average temperatures under all plausible emissions scenarios" but they also go on to provide this entire and entirely damning paragraph:

      For example, a middle-of-the-road emission scenario (SRES A1B) projects global mean temperatures that will be well above the Holocene average by the year 2100 CE. Indeed, if any of the six emission scenarios considered by the IPCC that are shown on Figure 3 are followed, future global average temperatures, as projected by modeling studies, will likely be well outside anything the Earth has experienced in the last 11,300 years, as shown in Figure 3 of our study.

      The authors of the paper you cited drew precisely the exact opposite of the conclusion that you drew from reading their paper — they expect temperatures to exceed the holocene maximum in less than one hundred years. If there was ever any clearer evidence that someone failed at reading comprehension, I don't know what it is. You just completely destroyed your own argument by insisting that I check your citation, as the authors of that very paper believe that a moderate estimate of temperature increase will lead to outstripping the temperatures of the holocene.

      Thanks, you just proved that you are a complete fucking tool, and illiterate too. That saves me a lot of trouble.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    58. Re:No Evidence by khallow · · Score: 1

      And your argument is one giant appeal to authority. There is no substance here. Show me the evidence or GTFO.

    59. Re:No Evidence by khallow · · Score: 1

      The vast majority of credible scientists are saying that we are.

      No, you merely think that. Just because there is general agreement that humanity is increasing the CO2 content of the atmosphere, doesn't mean that those same scientists agree with your more extreme claims. This is a huge bias on your part and typical of what you've posted over the past few days. The basis premises of the arguments you present throughout the thread are so bad and poorly founded, one can't go beyond them.

      It's not guilt given to you for free, it's guilt you've earned.

      More of the same. Why should I ever feel guilt? If my actions are harmful, then I merely need to correct them. Problem gets solved without any need for guilt. But you have to show first that my actions are harmful, not merely assume it as you have done here.

    60. Re:No Evidence by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      Why do you say it is irrelevant? If anything it seems that comparing temperatures at different pressures (eg surface temps) is irrelevant.

      The relationship between temperature and pressure is not a surprise. But factors are different at different altitudes, or when the atmosphere you're discussing is sitting on top of a bunch of other atmosphere which can (and will) affect it differently from solid ground.

      Venus' atmosphere is at a very different pressure, you can't just ignore ground level. And it's got different constituents, for example 96.5% CO2 when our atmosphere has only 0.0397%. It's also interesting that you mentioned Venus' cloud layers. You seriously don't think that the fact that the clouds are made out of sulfuric acid is going to have an impact on the applicability of comparing weather on Earth and Venus? You cannot simply wave away the many differences between the two situations without showing that they can in fact be waved away, and you have not even made an attempt to do so. Until you can do that, there is no reason to care how sure you are that the conditions in Venus' upper atmosphere are relevant to conditions here on Earth at sea level, or at any other level.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    61. Re:No Evidence by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      And your argument is one giant appeal to authority. There is no substance here. Show me the evidence or GTFO.

      You are a hypocrite because you have shown no evidence for your assertions, which run counter to the commonly accepted views. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, or at least some evidence, and you have presented none.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    62. Re:No Evidence by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      No, you merely think that. Just because there is general agreement that humanity is increasing the CO2 content of the atmosphere, doesn't mean that those same scientists agree with your more extreme claims.

      You can't claim that an assertion which does not make precise claims makes extreme claims.

      Why should I ever feel guilt? If my actions are harmful, then I merely need to correct them.

      But you aren't.

      But you have to show first that my actions are harmful, not merely assume it as you have done here.

      Others have done. You have presented no counter-evidence. I am merely pointing that out.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    63. Re:No Evidence by khallow · · Score: 1

      You can't claim that an assertion which does not make precise claims makes extreme claims.

      Sure, I can. Consider the following counterexample:

      "To keep you is no benefit. To destroy you is no loss."

      It's an assertion. It is far from precise since the assertion says nothing about why it is considered true or what is going to be done as a result. But it is an obviously extreme statement since the opinion of destroying people merely because you think their destruction would be no loss is an extreme outlier in human thought.

      Why should I ever feel guilt? If my actions are harmful, then I merely need to correct them.

      But you aren't.

      Well, you are right in that I don't feel guilt. But you have yet to provide evidence for the claim that I'm engaging in harmful behavior.

      Others have done. You have presented no counter-evidence. I am merely pointing that out.

      Others have merely asserted that. Evidence is still required. It's also worth noting that this crowd doesn't do cost-benefit. Just because there is a cost doesn't mean that there isn't a benefit which makes the activity net-beneficial.

      And what sort of counter-evidence should I provide in addition to what is already in the thread? We already have you with your breezy assertions and tunnel-vision morality. What else do I need here?

    64. Re:No Evidence by khallow · · Score: 1

      Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, or at least some evidence, and you have presented none.

      You whine about hypocrisy and then this? Where's your extraordinary evidence that supports your opinions?

    65. Re:No Evidence by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      You whine

      Ah yes, I was waiting for this. Face to face, you would not accuse me of whining, or you'd be laughed out of the room. On the internets, you are brave and stupid.

      Where's your extraordinary evidence that supports your opinions?

      It is, at the moment, commonly accepted scientific theory. That is why the burden of proof is on you. That's how it works. Your views would be subjected to the same scrutiny if you made counterclaims against any generally accepted theory.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    66. Re:No Evidence by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Drinkypoo,

      You are correct that, given current theory, it is quite surprising that by simply multiplying the temperature of earths atmosphere by 1.176 (which is the square root of the ratio of the two orbital radii) we can get the temperature of venus' atmosphere at the same pressure. That is why it indicates something is seriously wrong with or missing from current theory. I have yet to see any explanation for this other than coincidence. Many falsifiers start as coincidences, so...

    67. Re:No Evidence by khallow · · Score: 1
      Now you're whining about internet etiquette.

      It is, at the moment, commonly accepted scientific theory.

      I think you've forgotten what you claimed.

      The myth is that we can wipe our ass with the biosphere continually and still live here.

      Where's the evidence, scientific or otherwise, that we're doing some sort of metaphorical "wiping of the ass" with the biosphere? There might be a scientific theory that expresses that in quantifiable terms and a large group of people who "commonly accept" that theory. But that doesn't mean anything unless the basis for acceptance is founded on scientific grounds.

      For a person who thinks so many moves ahead, you really have a losing style of reasoning and debate.

    68. Re:No Evidence by khallow · · Score: 1

      To further elaborate on my previous question, "wipe our ass" implies to me a gross disregard for the biosphere, not merely doing harm to it. I think this is not borne out by our behavior.

      For example, most of the world has to some degree (often a very considerable degree) embraced the conservatism movement and creation of green spaces in urban environments. Similarly, a lot of the world strongly regulates the emission of pollution. That indicates to me that we have a regard for the environment and our biospheres that rises well above the gross disregard claimed by drinkypoo earlier on.

      This goes back to my original comment about how some people, like drinkypoo, seem to need to assert that humanity is doing a variety of evil things.

    69. Re:No Evidence by CauseBy · · Score: 1

      "Therefore a possible cause is 'climate change'. "

      And it remains a possible cause. What's your point and how did you arrive at it?

  5. First assumption was wrong. by viperidaenz · · Score: 2

    Perhaps " If we assume that these birds come back to the same locations every year, without fail" is wrong. Perhaps they go to the best location they can find?

  6. Or, maybe... by cirby · · Score: 4, Funny

    ...they got tired of all of the scientists following them around, year after year, tagging them and annoying the kids.

    "Y'know, Marge, this place is just getting too touristy for me. Let's go somewhere quiet, farther down the beach."

  7. Underwater volcanoes, not CO2 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Underwater volcanoes, not climate change, reason behind melting of West Antarctic Ice Sheet

    http://www.techtimes.com/articles/8278/20140610/underwater-volcanoes-climate-change-reason-melting-west-antarctic-ice.htm

    1. Re:Underwater volcanoes, not CO2 by schwit1 · · Score: 2

      Just another inconvenient truth.

    2. Re:Underwater volcanoes, not CO2 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Damnit I knew CO2 was powerful, but now it causes under water volcanos?!?

    3. Re:Underwater volcanoes, not CO2 by rubycodez · · Score: 0

      don't confuse those who think they are "scientific" when they ape agenda funded propaganda organs like the IPCC

    4. Re:Underwater volcanoes, not CO2 by K.+S.+Kyosuke · · Score: 1

      Actually, that's roughly what happens, although on a geological time scale.

      --
      Ezekiel 23:20
    5. Re:Underwater volcanoes, not CO2 by riverat1 · · Score: 1

      Well it's not volcanoes that are underwater but volcanoes that are under the ice sheets. And they are not the only thing causing those ice sheets to melt, just one factor.

    6. Re:Underwater volcanoes, not CO2 by itzly · · Score: 1

      This geothermal heat is most likely not a new phenomenon. It adds a little base heat to the system, but the recent changes are due to CO2. Also, the absolute amounts are rather small. The average geothermal heat flow under the ice sheet is only 100 milliwatts per square meter, compared to an average of 65 milliwatts for the rest of the globe. Compared to the hundreds of watts of heat from the sun, it's a rather small contribution.

    7. Re:Underwater volcanoes, not CO2 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Dude, what are you drinking? And where can I find me some, because it must be strong.

    8. Re:Underwater volcanoes, not CO2 by American+Patent+Guy · · Score: 1

      And what percentage of that heat from the sun is a result of global warming? It's not the total "hundreds of watts" that you suggest. I'd like to know how many mW/m^2 is caused by the increased CO2 for a proper comparison, if you don't mind. Oh, and let's not forget that we're talking about a solar exposure that's at a low average angle, which will reduce your number quite a bit. (Hot air does not immediately transfer from the equator to the poles, and most the effect of direct overhead exposure is lost to space, as I'm sure you're smart enough to know.)

      I'm sure that 35 mW/m^2 (100-65) is significant when you compare against the right number, whatever that is.

    9. Re:Underwater volcanoes, not CO2 by itzly · · Score: 1

      Extra heat from increased greenhouse effect is a couple of Watts/m^2. Of course, the solar exposure to the Antarctic low (low angle and high reflectivity), but direct sunlight is not the biggest factor. Increased sea water temperatures, melting ice at the edges and bottom of the ice sheet is the dominating factor. As the edges melt, the glaciers can flow more quickly, transporting more ice to the sea. The sea water gets warmed up elsewhere, where there is more direct sun exposure, and the currents take it to the south.

    10. Re:Underwater volcanoes, not CO2 by American+Patent+Guy · · Score: 1

      I have a little scented wax warmer that melts a pot of wax less than .01 m^2 surface and maybe 3cm thick, and it uses the heat from a 25 watt bulb to do it. Your couple of W/m^2 is the equivalent of a Christmas tree bulb under a block that would be 100 times larger in surface and many cm or meters thick. Now I am making a comparison of wax to ice, but the extra exposure caused by the additional CO2 would be like holding out a match over a square meter of frozen tundra. I just can't see it having much effect.

      As to the lubricating effect at the edges: I'm just not buying that. The warm water would have to get under the glacier somehow to lubricate it. That would be against the flow of the glacier and against the thermal mass of the ice within it. Water doesn't flow through ice.

      Now warmer water could have an effect on the bottom of an ice sheet ... and that warmer water could be sourced from underwater volcanoes as the thread originator posited. A single erupting underwater volcano could weaken an ice sheet in one location, cause a fracture, and release a large portion of the ice sheet into the ocean. The effect of the increased greenhouse effect is diffuse; the effect of volcanic eruption is concentrated.

      Now global warming may very well be having a significant effect, but to link it to a change in melting ice sheets and glaciers (and further to the migration of penguins) in the presence of another plausible explanation (underwater volcanoes) requires a lot more of a showing, in my mind.

    11. Re:Underwater volcanoes, not CO2 by itzly · · Score: 1

      The article from the paper, showing the heat map graph doesn't show excessive hot spots. The hottest spot shows 200 mW/m^2, which is only twice as much as the area average of 100 mW. So, if you want to argue that several W/m^2 can't possible have an effect on ice sheets, it doesn't sound very convincing that 10 times as less (even in the hot spots), has a greater effect. As far as the sea water getting under the ice, that's not so far fetched, as a lot of the ice rests on bedrock that's below sea level. It is very easy for sea water to get underneath that.

    12. Re:Underwater volcanoes, not CO2 by American+Patent+Guy · · Score: 1

      The graph from the article shows "high geothermal flux" "exceeding 150 or 200 mW/m^2 in more than 10 locations, those localities apparently less than a few km wide. That looks pretty "excessive" to me ... particularly where that heat has practically nowhere to go but directly into the ice above it.

      I didn't argue that your several W/m^2 couldn't have an effect. I argued that you haven't shown that it does in the face of evidence to the contrary. (You do understand the difference, right?)

      As far as sea water getting under the ice, the article seems to be saying that the circulating water is *because* of the additional geothermal heat, not from heating attributable to global warming. Your seawater heated by global warming would have to flow tens or even hundreds of km under the sheet to even reach the locations where the high geothermal flux is shown in the graph. A much more likely explanation is that any water under the sheet would be from the melted freshwater of the ice sheet brought about by the geothermal warming.

      Oh, and just because the seawater is below sea level does not make it flow under the ice sheet. The pressure of the seawater is basically the same as the pressure of the freshwater under the ice; the freshwater is below sea level, too.

    13. Re:Underwater volcanoes, not CO2 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      That's not what those researchers said at all. In the article you linked there's a link to the UT website which says.

      The glacier is retreating in the face of the warming ocean and is thought to be unstable because its interior lies more than two kilometers below sea level while, at the coast, the bottom of the glacier is quite shallow.

    14. Re:Underwater volcanoes, not CO2 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    15. Re:Underwater volcanoes, not CO2 by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      Underwater volcanoes, not climate change, reason behind melting of West Antarctic Ice Sheet

      Your article: Underwater volcanoes, not climate change, reason behind melting of West Antarctic Ice Sheet. Original release from UT Austin: Researchers Find Major West Antarctic Glacier Melting from Geothermal Sources. Your article: "Melting of a major glacier system in western Antarctica may be caused by underwater volcanoes, and not by global climate change, according to new research." Source article: " Thwaites Glacier, the large, rapidly changing outlet of the West Antarctic Ice Sheet, is not only being eroded by the ocean, itâ(TM)s being melted from below by geothermal heat". Tech times: Completely fucking full of shit, do not cite again. Not logging in: Anonymous cowardice, completely understandable in light of your poor citation. Slashdot: Still badly in need of unicode support, like every other goddamned website of our time.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
  8. They're avoiding their own mess. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The penguins have to move in order to not nest in their own foul wastes. They move to a clean area.

  9. BREAKING: Scientists Discover Preferences... by Motard · · Score: 2

    ...In Highly Evolved Species. Film at 11:00.

    1. Re:BREAKING: Scientists Discover Preferences... by Mashiki · · Score: 1, Troll

      What? You're suggesting that partisan scientists are involved in bias? Unpossible. As we all know there is no bias in climate change science, especially since they all agree. And as such, breaking from doctrine is heresy.

      --
      Om, nomnomnom...
    2. Re:BREAKING: Scientists Discover Preferences... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're suggesting 99% of scientists are biased the same way and that's partisan? Idiot.

    3. Re:BREAKING: Scientists Discover Preferences... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Fat is bad. So are eggs. Carbs are good. Except when they're bad. Like eggs. Except eggs are good.

      And you nitwits wonder why nobody pays any fucking attention to a bunch of wankers who:

      - Post pictures of polar bears doing polar bear things, as if we should be concerned that bear cubs play and swim.
      - Make up bullshit statistics like, '99% of scientists...'
      - Straddle dildos made in the image of His Grace, Gore, Duke of Carbon Credit Riches.

    4. Re:BREAKING: Scientists Discover Preferences... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Mixing metaphors like this only FURTHERS your claim to insanity. It proves nothing.

    5. Re:BREAKING: Scientists Discover Preferences... by Mashiki · · Score: 1

      You're suggesting 99% of scientists are biased the same way and that's partisan? Idiot.

      Considering that you even use 99% as a basis for your argument shows that you have no idea that the entire "99%" bit is spin-city. After all if you believe that 73 people contribute "all scientists" then you deserve to be mislead.

      --
      Om, nomnomnom...
    6. Re:BREAKING: Scientists Discover Preferences... by itzly · · Score: 1

      After all if you believe that 73 people contribute "all scientists" then you deserve to be mislead.

      Maybe. But who believes that ?

    7. Re:BREAKING: Scientists Discover Preferences... by Mashiki · · Score: 1

      Maybe. But who believes that ?

      Well facts are difficult things for some people, especially when they cling hard to orthodoxy.

      --
      Om, nomnomnom...
    8. Re:BREAKING: Scientists Discover Preferences... by itzly · · Score: 1

      Your answer doesn't really help to clarify who actually believes that "73 people contribute (sic) all scientists".

    9. Re:BREAKING: Scientists Discover Preferences... by TheRealHocusLocus · · Score: 1

      When Anonymous Cowards bicker, it makes God laugh.
      When real people do it, it makes Him cry.

      Assuming that Emperors return to the same nest areas throughout their history because we have visited the Antarctic a few times and followed them to the same spot more than once, that's a good one.

      Posing that any deviation in their behavior is due to so-called climate change, that's a better one.

      --
      <blink>down the rabbit hole</blink>
    10. Re:BREAKING: Scientists Discover Preferences... by Mashiki · · Score: 1

      Your answer doesn't really help to clarify who actually believes that "73 people contribute (sic) all scientists".

      I thought that was self-evident, those would be individuals who use poorly malformed questions in a poorly formed survey, and quote it as a gospel truth.

      --
      Om, nomnomnom...
  10. not humans, no way! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The IPCC predicts that humans will sit around in exactly the same spots for the next few centuries, come rain or high water. Humans obviously can't do in hundreds of years what penguins can do in a year.

    1. Re:not humans, no way! by K.+S.+Kyosuke · · Score: 1

      Moving infrastructure and building new cities is costly. Doubly so if you're doing it merely because you have to abandon the old ones (like Miami, which will become a fish colony in a century or two). I thought that not having to spend money (on things that merely preserve status quo, but at an extra cost) is better than having to spend it.

      --
      Ezekiel 23:20
    2. Re:not humans, no way! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well sorry but that's what you get when you build on the oceanfront, or a floodplain.

      Higher potential traffic and thus profits, along with the knowledge that 'your' land actually belongs to Poseidon, and sooner or later he will be by to collect.

      Take the bargain if you want, but FFS dont build on a floodplain then expect the rest of us to bail you out when the inevitable happens.

    3. Re:not humans, no way! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well sorry but that's what you get when you build on the oceanfront, or a floodplain.

      (i) It wasn't an arbitrary choice of humans to live near oceans and water.

      (ii) Rising sea levels will determine which areas are considered to be flood plains.

  11. satellite images by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    " these new colonies we see on satellite images .."
    "... Prompts Emperor Penguins To Find New Breeding Grounds"

    Maybe they are just trying to find a little privacy?

  12. Read the Article and it Contradicts the Headline by thepainguy · · Score: 4, Insightful

    They thought decreasing numbers were due to birds dying, but they were actually due to birds changing breeding locations (for unknown reasons).

    Basically, and contrary to the headline, the article says they don't know enough about penguin breeding behavior to draw any conclusions.

    "Over five years in the late 1970s, the Southern Ocean warmed and at the same time the penguin colony at Pointe Géologie, declined by half (6,000 breeding pairs to 3,000 breeding pairs). The decline was thought to be due to decreased survival rates. In other words, researchers thought that the warming temperatures were negatively impacting the survival of the species...'It’s possible that birds have moved away from Pointe Géologie to these other spots and that means that maybe those banded birds didn’t die,' LaRue said. 'If we want to accurately conserve the species, we really need to know the basics. We’ve just learned something unexpected, and we should rethink how we interpret colony fluctuations.'”

    P.S. Want to know why people are skeptical about climate change "science" and advocacy? It's because of blurbs like this one that say one thing in the headline and something else in the linked-to article.

  13. Re:Read the Article and it Contradicts the Headlin by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Its common for newspapers to take an AP story word for word and change the headline to something that they think will get them more views. Notice next time you see a similar story in multiple news sites that is sourced from the AP. They match exactly but the individual sites will change headline to get more clicks.

    The funny part about this instance is the AGW supporters commenting about how this does support their position despite the story saying nothing of the sort. They can't even boter to read the story before defending it. That shows how knowledgable they are about what they comment on, not at all.

  14. Everything is due to climate change by jarek · · Score: 1

    That is fantastic. Temperature variations in Antarctica span about 100 degrees, ranging from a low -90 in the winter to about +10 in the coastal areas during the summer and overcast conditions.Considering the range, it's quite extraordinary that less that one degree of change can wreak havoc in the lives of emperor penguins. One must wonder how they survive any temperature change at all if a barely measurable shift over a century in duration can have such a dramatic effect. It is even more strange that these emperor penguins have trouble with increasing temperatures as Antarctic average temperature has dropped slightly over the last half century, even setting a new record low of -93C (satellite measurements) quite recently (2010). This makes you wonder how much BS people can take before they say, ENOUGH!

    1. Re:Everything is due to climate change by itzly · · Score: 1

      If climate has an effect on penguin population (not saying it has...), it would be silly to consider direct contact between atmospheric air and penguins as a pathway. Most likely, such an effect would be the result of change in food supply.

  15. This Debate Grows Tired by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Does it really matter what or who is causing climate change at this point? Maybe we should be debating the best ways to curb it and protect ourselves from its effects...

    1. Re:This Debate Grows Tired by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Buy carbon credits and you have a zero footprint, problem solved.

    2. Re:This Debate Grows Tired by I'm+New+Around+Here · · Score: 1

      If it's part of a natural cycle based on solar output, celestial travel, the Earth's core rotation, or other massive-scale events, there isn't a damn thing we can do about it short of building a large screen in space to cut off sunlight.

      If it is caused by man, but from reasons other than carbon dioxide, such as waste heat from transportation and industrial activity, there's not a damn thing we can do about it short of halting all industry on the planet.

      There are a whole lot of assumptions as to what is causing the temperature increase we have been seeing for about two centuries now.

      --
      If you think I voted for Trump because of this post, you're wrong. I voted for Dr. Jill Stein of the Green Party. Again.
    3. Re:This Debate Grows Tired by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Does it really matter"

      GAAAAAHHH!!!!! Away with you, Hildebeest! Harpie! You evil, evil Benghazi, bad muhammad video lying bitch! Arrrrrrrhhhhhh!!!!

    4. Re:This Debate Grows Tired by itzly · · Score: 1

      They are only assumptions for the ignorant. For example, the total amount of waste heat added by transportation and industrial activity can be easily calculated. A reasonable estimate can even be calculated by a layman with data available on-line. If you would take the effort to produce such a calculation, you would realise that the total heat generated by these activities isn't nearly enough to account for the global warming. If you lack the skills to do a simple calculation like this, you have no business claiming ignorance in others.

    5. Re:This Debate Grows Tired by I'm+New+Around+Here · · Score: 1

      I doubt you can easily calculate the total waste heat of all human activity, which is what my second example actually was. Transportation and industry were only examples, not the entire range of of possibilities.

      That's not to say that other people can't determine waste heat generated by people. Looking at Wikipedia, it looks like the scientists calculate waste heat will cause a 3 degree Celsius increase by the year 2300. That's not an inconsequential amount.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W...

      --
      If you think I voted for Trump because of this post, you're wrong. I voted for Dr. Jill Stein of the Green Party. Again.
    6. Re:This Debate Grows Tired by itzly · · Score: 1

      Total waste heat can be simply estimated by looking at total power consumption, for which we have data available, and assuming all energy is ultimately converted to heat. Total human energy production is about 540 exajoules per year. Total energy we get from the sun is about 3,8 million exajoules. Just the 11-year sunspot cycle makes the solar output wobble by about 0.1%, which is already 7 times more than human energy production, and the sunspot cycle is barely noticeable in the temperature data.

    7. Re:This Debate Grows Tired by CraterGlass · · Score: 1

      Only two kinds of waste heat matter - waste heat from nuclear power and waste heat from fossil fuel burning.

      Waste heat from renewable energy is part of the planets natural heat budget. The heat from wind, waves or sunlight will heat the planet no matter what. It makes no difference if we use it to run an air conditioner, a factory or a truck first. If you're not sure about this, check out the laws of thermodynamics and conservation of energy.

      Nuclear power is so ridiculously expensive that we will never build enough of it for the waste heat to matter.

      That just leaves - oooh look! Fossil fuels! Well how about that. Actually I suspect you will find that even that is tiny compared to the greenhouse effect.

    8. Re:This Debate Grows Tired by I'm+New+Around+Here · · Score: 1

      So you can dispute my argument, if you redefine the terms in the argument.

      --
      If you think I voted for Trump because of this post, you're wrong. I voted for Dr. Jill Stein of the Green Party. Again.
    9. Re:This Debate Grows Tired by angel'o'sphere · · Score: 1

      There are absolutely no assumptions.
      We perfectly know what it is.

      --
      Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
    10. Re:This Debate Grows Tired by angel'o'sphere · · Score: 1

      Ofc you can easily calculate the 'waste heat' of all human activity.
      After all the energy production of every country, or 'consumption' of that matter if you just add up fossil fuels are published and easy to google.
      Hint a electric plant producing 1GW of electric power is usually at an efficiency factor of 42%. So the total thermal power is something like 2.2GW ... that is your 'waste heat'.

      --
      Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
    11. Re:This Debate Grows Tired by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Considering that the supposed effects will be flooding/destroying California and New York, climate change can't happen soon enough.

    12. Re:This Debate Grows Tired by itzly · · Score: 1

      I didn't redefine anything. You said we couldn't easily calculate total human waste heat, but we can. If you wanted to verify the calculations yourself, all you need is the total consumption of coal, natural gas, crude oil, and uranium, and multiply each by the energy content. A fairly simple task, especially because the consumption numbers are tracked quite accurately.

    13. Re:This Debate Grows Tired by I'm+New+Around+Here · · Score: 1

      First off, that's not "waste heat", that's all heat. The heat generated that actually does useful work is not waste heat, even if it also contributes its share of energy to the system. In that regard, even solar has to be counted, to some degree, since if it wasn't converted to electrical power, a sizable percentage of it would be reflected off the ground and back to space. Instead, it's trapped on Earth and adds to the total energy system.

      Second, either way, waste heat it is not a large source of energy in the system, but will add up over time, as the wiki gods state.

      Third, it was just a throw away example. Yet here you are chasing it down like it is the most important fact in this discussion.

      --
      If you think I voted for Trump because of this post, you're wrong. I voted for Dr. Jill Stein of the Green Party. Again.
  16. Climate Evolution by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I left Aridzona because it was getting too hot, moved to Washington (the state) where it rains all the time. So, did Climate change cause my move? NO! the phrase "climate change", aka "global warming", wasn't known in 1980.

    For those who travel, try Eastern Washington, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Channeled_Scablands, and excellent example of Climate Evolution.

  17. Selective pressure creates species by hsthompson69 · · Score: 0

    If the environment changes faster than a species can adapt, it is selected against, and goes extinct.

    In fact, by definition, all extinctions of the past were caused by environmental changes faster than the species could adapt.

    I would imagine that if we had been able to prevent all the extinctions of the cretaceous, humanity would never have arrived.

    Who are we to deny the life forms who will be here 10 million years from now thanks to the various waves of extinction prior to their arrival a chance at existence?

    By strictly focusing on existing species survival and the thwarting of selective pressures, aren't we in fact denying the future existence of species that would've arisen from those pressures, regardless of their source?

    1. Re:Selective pressure creates species by NeutronCowboy · · Score: 1

      Absolutely. However, I'd like to continue living without having to fight for all my daily resources. I'd also like to have kids, so that we may reach the stars one day.

      Yep, it's selfish. All acts are selfish in one way or another. It's how we progress. So, yes, environmental change that a lot of species can't adapt to is bad for them and bad for me.

      --
      Those who can, do. Those who can't, sue.
    2. Re:Selective pressure creates species by hsthompson69 · · Score: 0, Troll

      You're here because a lot of environmental changes that a lot of species couldn't adapt to happened - without the extinction of those species, your species never would have arisen. You can argue that it was bad for them, but you can't argue that it was bad for you.

      After all, wouldn't it be better if we got rid of all those damn spotted owls and desert tortoises and tit-mice that prevent us from expanding our habitat? Isn't the misguided attempt to preserve other species that are being selected against through pressures simply *forcing* us to fight for all our daily resources?

    3. Re:Selective pressure creates species by NeutronCowboy · · Score: 1

      Your mistake is to assume that we can survive without an ecosystem replete with a shit-load of species whose impact on us is largely unknown. We're about to find out if we can survive with a drastically changed one.

      --
      Those who can, do. Those who can't, sue.
  18. Where is the publication? by shrewdsheep · · Score: 1

    Seems only to be a blog post of the UoM. Did anybody dig up the publication?

  19. Biology != Science by fygment · · Score: 2

    It is a simple observational practice with no first principles and a singular assumption: animals are mindless automatons.
    With that one assumption, biologists are consistently surprised by what they observe.
    Given enough time/resources/interest, they may observe enough to get true understanding.
    Unfortunately, they will never ever have enough time/resources/interest.

    Biology isn't pointless, but don't call it a science.

    --
    "Consensus" in science is _always_ a political construct.
  20. 17 minute video presentation by LiavK · · Score: 1

    I was at the IdeaCity conference this past week, Michelle was there as an invited speaker and gave the first public presentation on this research. It's a great talk: http://www.ideacityonline.com/...

  21. Read the Article and it Contradicts the Headline by xigxag · · Score: 1

    "Over five years in the late 1970s, the Southern Ocean warmed." Warming temperatures over a period of years is by definition climate change. If I write 1+1=2, I'm still doing arithmetic even if I don't specifically call it "arithmetic." True there's no advocacy-ready insinuation of man-made global warming being at fault, but that's not what the headline says either. It's an accurate encapsulation of what is in the article.

    And don't know where you're getting "for unknown reasons" from. The only material change is that they went from thinking there was an outright population decrease to realizing that the birds were just nesting in a different region. But the article is still correlating the breeding grounds change with the period of oceanic warming.

    --
    There are two kinds of people: 1) those who start arrays with one and 1) those who start them with zero.
  22. Climate change by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Ever notice how it's only the Pro-Climate Change (aka Global Warming) articles that get posted here? The admins and contributors are such political tools.
    The truth is out. Give it up. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/environment/10916086/The-scandal-of-fiddled-global-warming-data.html

  23. Fearing change by hsthompson69 · · Score: 0

    Your first mistake is to assume that we can't survive without an ecosystem replete with a shit-load of species.

    Your second mistake is to assume that we can preserve this aforementioned shit-load of species and stop selective pressure from happening.

    Now, perhaps we won't last as as long as the coelacanth, or the shark, and it will turn out that homo sapiens gives way to some other species after selective pressures generate "homo superior" or whatever nomenclature you'd like to use. Maybe that's sad to some people...but if I was an australopithecus afarensis, staring down the barrel of extinction with the knowledge that my progeny would eventually be selectively pressurized into homo sapiens, would that be such a bad thing?

    The problem with being afraid of change is that it always does.

    1. Re:Fearing change by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      Your first mistake is to assume that we can't survive without an ecosystem replete with a shit-load of species.

      We do, in fact, require a shit-load of species to sustain us. You need dozens or hundreds of species just for healthy soil, let alone anything you actually want to eat that you've planted in that soil.

      Now, perhaps we won't last as as long as the coelacanth, or the shark, and it will turn out that homo sapiens gives way to some other species after selective pressures generate "homo superior" or whatever nomenclature you'd like to use. Maybe that's sad to some people...but if I was an australopithecus afarensis,

      You aren't.

      staring down the barrel of extinction with the knowledge that my progeny would eventually be selectively pressurized into homo sapiens, would that be such a bad thing?

      This discussion is about whether your offspring would even have a chance, or if some other rodent would eventually evolve into our successor. So yeah, the outcome could be really bad for not just you, but your genetic line.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    2. Re:Fearing change by hsthompson69 · · Score: 0

      We do, in fact, require a shit-load of species to sustain us.

      Fair enough, but not any *specific* shit-load of species :) As selective pressures cause species to form, some go extinct, and that's not only okay, it's how it's always worked.

      So yeah, the outcome could be really bad for not just you, but your genetic line.

      Put the shoe on the other foot, and realize that without selective pressures, our genetic line would never have come to be. Who are we to deny "homo superior" when they become a species based on selective pressure?

      I'm assuming you believe evolution is true - do you think it is true, but we should avoid it at all costs? :)

    3. Re:Fearing change by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      I'm assuming you believe evolution is true - do you think it is true, but we should avoid it at all costs? :)

      We should avoid being wiped out, so our species can evolve instead of disappearing. In any case, we don't know precisely which shit-load of species we really need, and it may be that we need different shit-loads for different parts of the world. If I could wipe out a species, it wouldn't be this or that lizard or whatever kind of owl we keep fucking up, it would be mosquitoes. If we're going to wipe out species, let's stop doing it accidentally, and start doing it on purpose.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    4. Re:Fearing change by hsthompson69 · · Score: 0

      We should avoid being wiped out, so our species can evolve instead of disappearing.

      You do realize that evolution is the selective pressure *against* lifeforms, right? If selective pressures are applied to *our* species, and the survivors form a *new* species, we *will* have been wiped out! :)

      If I could wipe out a species, it wouldn't be this or that lizard or whatever kind of owl we keep fucking up, it would be mosquitoes.

      You and I agree completely there - in fact, that's my criteria for actually worrying about the impact of humanity. I will believe that humans are a significant danger to the biosphere when we're able to wipe all mosquitos off the face of the planet. Until then, we're more bark than bite.

    5. Re:Fearing change by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      that's my criteria for actually worrying about the impact of humanity. I will believe that humans are a significant danger to the biosphere when we're able to wipe all mosquitos off the face of the planet. Until then, we're more bark than bite.

      Not only is that a completely arbitrary comparison, but all that it implies when we wipe out a species accidentally is that we're more shit than bite. We shit all over everything.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    6. Re:Fearing change by hsthompson69 · · Score: 0

      It's arbitrary, but purposeful - it's easy to wipe out the weak species, where selective pressures don't have to be all that great for them to go extinct.

      I'll start worrying when we wipe out the *hard* species. As someone who believes in natural selection survival of the fittest doesn't bother me - call me when the fittest don't survive, and then I'll worry :)

  24. Best example of press bias I have ever seen by carbonates · · Score: 1

    Tech Times headlines this as "Climate change prompts Emperor penguins to find new breeding grounds" The researchers press report is titled like this: "New research using satellite images reveals that emperor penguins are more willing to relocate than previously thought" The reporter from Tech Times basically lied to create a headline. If you read the original press release it says nothing about global climate change. The researchers did not make this conclusion- the fiction writer that wrote the article made it up. http://cse.umn.edu/admin/comm/...

  25. Overfishing of krill by Squidlips · · Score: 1

    That is the real reason they are moving, but no one wants to criticize the sacred cow of commercial fishing....

  26. Birds need a nice palce to go. by TJEx · · Score: 1

    Maybe they just got tired of walking around all the bird poo that builds up in a location and moves to a "clean" location. It not like it can get wash away in the rain and could coat the ice inches think.