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World's First Large-Scale Waste-to-Biofuels Facility Opens In Canada
Zothecula (1870348) writes Thanks to its extensive composting and recycling facilities, the city of Edmonton, Canada is already diverting approximately 60 percent of its municipal waste from the landfill. That figure is expected to rise to 90 percent, however, once the city's new Waste-to-Biofuels and Chemicals Facility starts converting garbage (that can't be composted or recycled) into methanol and ethanol. It's the world's first such plant to operate on an industrial scale, and Gizmag recently got a guided tour of the place.
I predict within 24 months this plant will be shut down. Write it down. This is just more bullshit left wing crap that someone somehow got funded. Many people will lose their jobs and some may lose their retirement savings. Why Canada is fucking around with this when they enormous reserves of tar sands and other conventional fuels is beyond me. Huge fuck up.
It's not about the fuel output, it's about greenwashing - spoken as an Edmontonian. (That self-reference makes me shudder, but I've lived here my whole half-frozen life). Oh, and spending money on large and unneeded capital projects - that's a very popular thing around here.
Would like to see the efficiency numbers for the process. They just say how much garbage goes in and how much they expect to get out but not how much energy it's going to take or how much pollution or garbage is going to be resulting from the operation.
Also when it comes to the 60 and 90 percent diversion rates I think the article is talking about the residential waste stream. From the pictures that is where the garbage for the plant is coming from. I'd like to know if the plant is going to take anything from the commercial or industrial streams. Those diversion rates are usually much worse.
I predict within 24 months this plant will be shut down. Write it down. This is just more bullshit left wing crap that someone somehow got funded. Many people will lose their jobs and some may lose their retirement savings. Why Canada is fucking around with this when they enormous reserves of tar sands and other conventional fuels is beyond me. Huge fuck up.
On the contrary although this plant is new they've been doing stuff like this for years, and it makes economic sense.
The problem with garbage is you have to put it somewhere. Landfills fill up quickly and use up otherwise useful land, and the further you ship it the more expensive and polluting it is to transport. The waste reclamation centre drastically reduces the amount you need to dispose of.
Eco-stations claim a lot of the electronic waste, the company that gets the material actually turns a profit on breaking them down.
Compostables get turned into topsoil, traditional recyclables get pulled out and turned into economically useful items, etc.
If your city thinks shipping wealth away burying it with all the resulting externalities is a better alternative then they can keep with their current setup. I prefer the Edmontonian model.
We also treat our sewage rather than dumping in raw into the ocean like some coastal cities.
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tar sands produce a vile sludge that can literally be used like agent orange.
methanol and ethanol production from municipal waste is taking trash out of the 'too dry to rot too much gas to oxidize' landfill and instead produce useful chemical some of which can be safely used to operate machinery like cars, and produce fewer noxious fumes.
if the world was run by clones in thought of you, there wouldnt be a living being on this planet for at least half a million years -- assuming that the colapse of organic life including human life by using pestacides that kill bees (after which humans would live another 4 years) and all the carbon heating the planet from all the pricks driving cars using up the worlds 200 year supply of fossile fuels at the consumption and production levels predicted for humans, based on your view that making a city 0 impact on the environment is some how wrong, and that consuming every molecule of carbon in fire until the skys rain acid like they do on venus, is the 'right thing to do' well we would never survive the consumption of all the fossil fuels, as bees would die first.
https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html
Alberta is the most conservative part of Canada, Quite the opposite of left wing anything.
Oddly enough, you are talking about a part of Canada that known for its petrochemical industries and right wing ideologues ...
Extracting energy out of garbage instead of shoveling it into the ground and dumping it into the oceans? Sounds like some kind of liberal conspiracy.
This was tried nearby, it was shutdown and dismantled about a year after it opened due to the stench that lingered across town.
The province is conservative but Edmonton is fairly liberal (as are most cities). I actually took a tour of the waste treatment plant a few years ago and it was pretty impressive (and smelly). Back then they were talking about grinding up the non-recyclable/compostable bits and using them for asphalt filling as a way to get over 90% non-landfilled, I'm not sure if this is any of the same material they're talking about here, I don't think I'd want my highways degrading.
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I only wish more US red states were like Alberta. It would save us a lot of dough.
You are welcome on my lawn.
Landfills fill up quickly and use up otherwise useful land...
Not always. Here in Southern California, landfills often start out as canyons or other places that can't be effectively used. When they're full, they're covered with topsoil and allowed to sit until everything is stable, then they're re-purposed as parks, golf courses or some other recreational facility. Of course, not everyplace has that option.
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By guided tour they mean 11 pictures of piles of trash and 2 pictures of the outside of the plant. From a distance.
Seriously, where are the shots of the reactors? The end product?
What solvents does it use? Is it done in a vacuum?
As an Edmontonian, I'm glad to see our municipal government take an initiative like this, but it's sure not enough to alleviate the fact that the tar sands in our province are the worldwide epicentre of global warming and all our power comes from burning coal :(
This was being done in the 1970's, if I am not mistaken. It was called EcoFuel II (tm). It might be the worlds first in terms of this exact process, but there have been plenty of other "garbage to fuel" processes in the past.
The brains of a chicken, coupled with the claws of two eagles, may well hatch the eggs of our destruction.
We we had a similar plant in Ontario, it was shut down because of the air pollution. It is still the biggest, by far, smokestack in the city. Burning garbage does not make it disappear, and people would rather the garbage be put somewhere they do not see it, instead of blown into their faces.
I'm not sure if it will smoke since according to the article the stuff won't actually "burn"'
There, it will be heated in a low-oxygen atmosphere. This will cause its chemical bonds to break (without the material actually burning), releasing their carbon and hydrogen content to form what's known as syngas. This will in turn be cleaned up and converted into chemical products and biofuels – such as methanol and ethanol.
Either way if the emitted chemicals are what you're looking for you're not just going to dump them out a smokestack.
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Liberal by Alberta standards, I guess. You guys even have one MP that isn't a conservative!
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What is unique is that the garbage gets sorted just like the recycling gets sorted. Though this is not new for Edmonton they have been doing this for a while. I hate when people call it burning garbage. It is gasification of garbage. The gas is collected and sorted just like oil is separated. Unsellable gas still needs to be burnt off though.
Toronto will be running into a garbage wall soon. They have a good organics processing plant. But, they can't find enough buyers for the recyclables. Garbage is still shipped to the US.
There's no smoke here, nor is there burning.
You're not burning the stuff, you're gassifying it, which is an entirely different thing. The latter uses a low-oxygen environment and no combustion.
From that gasification, you get hydrogen and carbon monoxide ("synthesis gas"), which you feed into a Fisher-Tropsch process, with the end result being diesel fuel you can pour into the city buses or sell or whatever.
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Depends where they built it. If it is on the east side there is a large refinery there and I cannot imagine it will out stink that! Also it is not burning the rubbish but is converting it into useful chemicals so it is not clear that it will produce anything like the same levels of odour and pollution that burning refuse will cause.
The province is conservative but Edmonton is fairly liberal (as are most cities). I actually took a tour of the waste treatment plant a few years ago and it was pretty impressive (and smelly). Back then they were talking about grinding up the non-recyclable/compostable bits and using them for asphalt filling as a way to get over 90% non-landfilled, I'm not sure if this is any of the same material they're talking about here, I don't think I'd want my highways degrading.
I have lived here for the last 16 years, Edmonton is not LIBERAL by ANY Standard, we are a very conservative community and there is broad difference between our conservatism and U.S. conservatism. And while the the world is fed MISINFORMATION by the media all over the World. We are very environmentally minded progressive, we look for solutions to our environmental problems rather then follow the illogical bankrupting and unrealistic termination of all activity by the environmental groups. We probably have one of the most stringent environmental and safety legislation and compliance around, there are multimillion dollar industries and jobs centered around this aspect, however our province is still subject to the human element, and where you have humans you have mistakes and complacency and non-compliance from time to time. And no we don't have a perfect system, but we are leaders in research to solve our environmental and safety issues with our industry. Can you say any of this about China or Russia, or any of the OPEC Nations?
We we had a similar plant in Ontario, it was shut down because of the air pollution.
Depends which one you're talking about, if it was the one in London Ontario, it was shut down because NIMBY's threw a fit over it. But it used to heat the LHC complex, and now they use natural gas and had to install a boiler complex for all the buildings. They wanted to build one in Ottawa and the same thing happened, and they wanted to build one in Woodstock. The one in Woodstock never happened because NIMBY's who don't freaking live here threw a hissy fit over it. The city, and the general population was in favor of it.
Funny enough, Oxford County much like the city of Woodstock is heavily conservative. And every time some city like London, or K/W(both heavily liberal, pro-green, etc) throws a hissy fit over opening a new plant it ends up coming here. Fastest growing city in Ontario for a reason.
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They turn a profit because they get paid to use their "raw" materials. Other "mining" operations manage to turn a profit while having to pay to get raw materials.
No you turd. It's about NOT FILLING UP ONE DUMP AFTER ANOTHER. Comprende?
Even if it does not break even on costs, it's still a win. How much is there lost because some stupid landfill makes an area inhabitable for hundreds of years. Go ahead, build your house on/near one. I dare you.
> The diesel fuel / alcohol / gasahol is then burnt, so you are still burning garbage, but indirectly.
No, not at all. You're burning gas. Garbage combustion has a lot of nasty byproducts that this doesn't have.
> This will add to greenhouse gasses . . .
No, it's carbon neutral because the gasses would escape into the atmosphere anyway in the landfill, this is just a controlled process to actually retrieve the gas. Besides, *not* burning it would increase the greenhouse effect more because all of these gases are very potent greenhouse gases. You want to burn them to release less potent carbon dioxide.
> Perhaps more stringent controls on packaging, plastics, etc might be better for reducing trash in the first place, but that takes political will, and real social change. Everything that we make should be recyclable. This is the only way that it will work in the long run.
We need all of the above solutions, including this. There's no silver bullet.
Edmonton is less conservative than rural Alberta. Calgary is less conservative yet. So it's a matter of perspective. The mean political position of Alberta is right of where the mean position of the Canadian average is. But within Alberta, Edmonton's mean political position is left of that of the rural part of the province and Calgary even moreso.
But don't be alarmed... I have friends who fled even 'liberal' (relatively) Calgary for the left coast because Calgary was too conservative and redneck for their tastes.
One of the great things about this country is it has such a diversity of opinion and so many great places to live that allow people to locate a place that somewhat matches their ideology and disposition.
"I predict within 24 months this plant will be shut down. Write it down. This is just more bullshit left wing crap that someone somehow got funded. "
I get my electrical power since a dozen years from such a waste to power plant and I'm not even in Canada.
Hell, lots of European countries can't get enough waste from their own population and have to _buy_ it from other countries to generate power.
Landfills are only used for the unrecyclable stuff from demolished buildings, concrete, bricks etc.
Not always. Here in Southern California, landfills often start out as canyons or other places that can't be effectively used. When they're full, they're covered with topsoil and allowed to sit until everything is stable, then they're re-purposed as parks, golf courses or some other recreational facility.
Because water hazards aren't enough, we need golf with fire hazards.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
My grandfather was a chemist and worked in the lighting gas industry in the 1920's. The city of Halifax recycled waste into methane for street lighting.
I live in Ontario and work in an associated field.
I do not know the actual specifics of this case, but it usually is NIMBY that causes the problems. Ontario has several large groups of "green" activists and pour money into lobbying and lawyers, when in reality they are mostly home/cottage owners associations fronting as environmental groups. Shutting down wind power due to OMG bird strikes, and the like when really they are just looking after what the value of their properties are worth in the area. A garbage processing plant? Yeah you can bet it got shut down by land owners protecting their self interest and investments.
We had a big gas plant scandal a few years ago where some were supposed to be built, NIMBY and the resulting political pressure had the government shut the project down, costing taxpayers like 2 billion dollars. These things have to go someplace. Isn't the ONE job of the state to look after the interests of the many at possibly the expense of the few? Looking after the few at the expense of the many seem a bit corrupt.
I was thinking the same thing. Kind of funny. Though at the same time, makes a bit of sense. Probably one of the few places where they can afford to do projects like this. Good for them.
This will add to greenhouse gasses . . .
No, this actually reduces it. This material would otherwise decompose into methane, a decidedly more potent greenhouse gas. This lets you shift that to CO2 and also reduces the need for some other source of fuel.
landfills take a lot of land, and the garbage has to be shipped there.
Hence this plant, which, in combination with composting and recycling programs, reduces the amount of stuff that goes into the landfill.
Perhaps more stringent controls on packaging, plastics, etc might be better for reducing trash in the first place, but that takes political will, and real social change. Everything that we make should be recyclable. This is the only way that it will work in the long run.
A good idea, but that has nothing to do with this. This process is for stuff that it is impractical to compost or recycle, such as wood or fabrics.
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Alberta is the most conservative part of Canada
Then fuck them. Why are we spending money to help racists?
Alberta also contributes more to our national economy than it receives from it. (unlike most red states)
Granted they're not turning the stuff into fuel, but they are generating electricity from their garbage (and they want yours, they're running out). It would be interesting to compare the carbon/pollution/energy profiles of the two approaches. Wonder if the Scandinavian way is cleaner?
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It's apparently not over yet. but kind of sad they haven't hit any of their milestones.
---Up Up Down Down Left Right Left Right B A START
It is true that landfills are often usable afterwards for parks and even houses!
It is also true that landfill locations have to be carefully surveyed for issues such as water runoff and geological stability in order to ensure that land fills don't pollute groundwater or leak toxic chemicals, etc. Nobody wants to live next to a landfill for the 10-40 years that they are open. They aren't pretty. They smell bad, and attract vermin. As we learn more about the real effects of land fills, we often find that even years after being closed, they are causing ongoing environmental damage that is very expensive. Many toxic "super fund" environmental disasters are previous dump sites.
And, if it's actually profitable recycle instead of dumping, are you really arguing that we should dump anyway?
I have no problem with your religion until you decide it's reason to deprive others of the truth.
Yeah... based on the previous comments it basically seems that they're able to get away with it because the province of Alberta has less whiners (NIMBY's) who block any useful large project that doesn't "look pretty". As an "oil province" they're pretty used to fairly large non-pretty industry.
We have similar issues getting stuff implemented in my province.
I remember reading about some projects that attempted to create fuel from processed sewage/bacteria. IIRC they planned to have some test plants in eastern Canada (Ontario?). Anyone know about those
Garbage-in-gas-out seems like a good plan. If we could also get "human waste in, gas out" then we're doing even better in terms of managing the nasty side-products of "civilization"
+1, Funny
Truth hurts? London is distinctly liberal, in fact they elected a mayor who was a former liberal MP(who was recently charged with breach of trust and other offences), when there were better candidates on the field. And they've done the same with regional councilors.
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