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DARPA Wants To Kill the Password

jfruh writes Many security experts agree that our current authentication system, in which end users are forced to remember (or, more often, write down) a dizzying array of passwords is broken. DARPA, the U.S. Defense Department research arm that developed the Internet, is trying to work past the problem by eliminating passwords altogether, replacing them with biometric and other cues, using off-the-shelf technology available today.

31 of 383 comments (clear)

  1. There we go again by ArcadeMan · · Score: 4, Funny

    Kill and eliminate passwords? Violence is not the answer.

    1. Re: There we go again by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

      We don't need to kill and eliminate passwords, we just need to modify them. The problem with passwords for the average user is the dizzying array of requirements from various websites (between 8 and 20 characters long, required to have upper/lower case and numbers, must have punctuation except "|~, etc.). I've never understood why passwords can't be sentences, like "I'm going to take my dog, Spot, to the park today." It's much easier to remember for the layperson and pretty quick to type once you've done it a few times. IANAC (I Am Not A Cryptologist), but I thought password strength was a function of length and potential characterset. It seems like everyday sentences would be the way to go since guessing it exactly right would be exceedingly difficult.

    2. Re: There we go again by Desler · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Only if you're dumb enough to let authentication program be suspceptible to such an attack. Dictionary attacks can be trivially defeated by rating limiting tries and after, say, 5 tries not allowing any more attempts for some cooldown period. No attacker is going to bother if they can only have 5 tries every 15 to 20 minutes.

    3. Re: There we go again by AC-x · · Score: 3, Informative

      Dictionary attacks can be trivially defeated by rating limiting tries and after, say, 5 tries

      Unless they have a copy of the password hash

    4. Re: There we go again by AC-x · · Score: 3, Insightful

      You seem to have no clue what a password hash actually is. The whole point of a cryptographic hash is it's one way operation; You can turn a password into a hash easily, but you can't turn a hash into a password without brute forcing it.

      Having a hash of a sufficiently string password is perfectly safe, in fact here's one now, bet you can't find the password from it. It's a basic SHA1 hash, not even salted: b6faa93a9e6ca445875c6b5511e2153bb51ef43a

      However if a chosen password appears in a password dictionary than you can cut down your brute force search space by so much it goes from taking years (even centuries) to crack a password to taking a few hours (sometimes minutes).

    5. Re: There we go again by ncc74656 · · Score: 3, Informative

      I've never understood why passwords can't be sentences, like "I'm going to take my dog, Spot, to the park today."

      They can be, but it would be incredibly stupid to use something like that. A dictionary attack would crack that password in seconds.

      Are you sure about that?

      --
      20 January 2017: the End of an Error.
    6. Re: There we go again by AC-x · · Score: 4, Informative

      You probably shouldn't try to write about things you don't know about or understand.

      1. The industry accepted way to store passwords securely in a database is with a one-way, salted cryptographic hash (using as CPU intensive algorithm as possible).

      2. Many organisations have had database intrusions where these password hashes have been stolen (eg. eBay, Linkedin, LivingSocial etc.)

      3. When this happens (i.e. "they have a copy of the password hash") passwords can be cracked offline. Strong passwords are safe (too hard to brute force), but weak passwords can be found using a dictionary attack.

      4. Once the password is found offline a hacker can log straight in to the victim's online account with a single password attempt.

    7. Re: There we go again by AC-x · · Score: 4, Informative

      Hey Desler I really don't get you, you (appear to) know what a salt is yet you don't understand that an attacker would be performing the attack on the hash offline, with their own hardware. Rate limiting their own hardware would be, as you put it, the height of idiocy.

    8. Re: There we go again by AC-x · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Duh. Being Captain Obvious again?

      By your previous posts it seemed you needed things put in simple terms, especially since you claimed that 1) knowing the hash is the same as knowing the password (it's not) and 2) rate limiting could defeat offline password cracking (it can't). Do you stand by those claims?

      Of course, this is why you lock the accounts until the user resets the password. Poof that attack vector is now gone.

      That's no solution: 1) Relies on the attack being detected in the first place. 2) If the user has reused their password elsewhere this doesn't reset those too. It's also completely irrelevant to the question of being able to dictionary attack a password.

    9. Re: There we go again by AK+Marc · · Score: 3

      Yup. Because SQL injection attacks work in passwords, especially when you have a 4,000 old COBOL system.

    10. Re: There we go again by AK+Marc · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Sometimes it seems like the sites make their password rules match banks. Then, if you can't find anything else that works, use your bank password. The site then has your email, name and bank password. They can try that combo on all the major bank sites, and could get access.

      I'm surprised more black-hats don't set up "free" services with that intention.

  2. All good until someone simulates biometrics... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    You can change a password, you can't change your retina print. What do you do when your account is compromised? Get new eyes?

    1. Re:All good until someone simulates biometrics... by peragrin · · Score: 3, Insightful

      New eyes , new finger prints, and new DNA.

      What happens if you get sick or injured? Can you imagine pink eye with retinal scanners? Finger print scanners are fooled by gummy bears.

      --
      i thought once I was found, but it was only a dream.
    2. Re:All good until someone simulates biometrics... by Thanshin · · Score: 5, Funny

      Finger print scanners are fooled by gummy bears.

      Where I work, the scanners are quite high. Way beyond the reach of even the tallest gummy bears.

    3. Re:All good until someone simulates biometrics... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Funny

      They may be short, but don't be fooled - they can actually reach quite high if they have their juice with them.

    4. Re:All good until someone simulates biometrics... by mellon · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Exactly right. Biometric passwords are much easier to fake, because you can't change them. They also provide a nice means of identifying surveillance targets. It's almost as if these guys are getting direction from the NSA or something.

    5. Re:All good until someone simulates biometrics... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Funny

      For those of you that don't get the joke: there was a cartoon about bouncing gummi bears in the 80s. It has an amazing theme song:
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?...

    6. Re:All good until someone simulates biometrics... by Bob9113 · · Score: 3, Funny

      >> Finger print scanners are fooled by gummy bears.

      > Where I work, the scanners are quite high.

      Aww, come on, now, no need to point fingers. If you had to sit there and check people's fingerprints all day you might spark up a bowl and get tempted by gummi bears once in a while too.

  3. Ultimately... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Ultimately whatever password replacement you come up with gets turned into TCPIP packets over the intertubes. Whether you are measuring my height, fingerprint, penis size or whatever metric you come up with, it gets turned into 0's and 1's that I can grab and duplicate. It is still information on a remote server than can be hacked and used by third parties.

    And worse... once hacked, I can't do much to change my biometrics... so I'm totally screwed once the host server is hacked and a million biometric accounts are compromised.

    1. Re:Ultimately... by digitig · · Score: 5, Funny

      Whether you are measuring my height, fingerprint, penis size or whatever metric you come up with

      Penis size is pretty useless as a biometric. It changes depending on the site being accessed.

      --
      Quidnam Latine loqui modo coepi?
  4. presumably so... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    ...when the NSA wants to tap into various accounts, they can track exactly who they belong to and who accesses them because it will be linked to your personally identifiable biometrics

  5. I can't change my fingerprint by Ubi_NL · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I can change my password anytime if I think somebody copied it. I cannot change my fingerprint or retina. There is no way I'm giving random webshops or google my biometric data.

    --

    If an experiment works, something has gone wrong.
  6. As long as certain rules are kept by Thanshin · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I'm ready to switch passwords for anything else as long as:
    1 - It can't be extracted from me by an easier method than torture or blackmail.
    2 - It stops working forever if I'm dead.

    Otherwise, some blood will have to wash away the naivete. Again.

    1. Re:As long as certain rules are kept by LWATCDR · · Score: 3, Insightful

      "2 - It stops working forever if I'm dead."
      That is what I am worried about. I would like my wife to have access to my online accounts if for no other reason than to say good bye for me.

      --
      See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
    2. Re:As long as certain rules are kept by judoguy · · Score: 3, Insightful
      Good point. I'm at an age where my friends are dying every year or so. As someone who has had to "close up shop" for some of them, it's a royal bitch to do when their online life can't be accessed. Stopping the mail, shutting down the online business, etc.

      "Oh, they should have prepared for that in advance, as soon as they knew they were going to die". Yeah, well, perhaps in some fantasy world. No, the survivors clean up in real life.

      --
      Peace is easy to achieve, just surrender. Liberty is much harder get/keep.
  7. Passwords don't need to be killed by nine-times · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Passwords don't need to be killed. If you're thinking about replacing it with biometrics, I think that's thinking about the problem the wrong way too. The fact is, we already have all the technology we need to solve this problem much better than we do today. It's simple: instead of passwords, you should have a password protected private key, with a single password, and then use public keys for authentication. That way, you only need to know one password, and you've also eliminated a lot of the danger of snooping on connections because the private key isn't being sent.

    Of course, it would require that everyone pretty much agree on one set of standards for how it's supposed to be implemented, and than developers have to build their products with those standards. Then you probably also want some trustworthy and inexpensive/free Certificate Authorities. Ideally you'd want to be able, though not required, to use the same private key for everything-- email encryption, ssh logins, maybe even credit card purchases-- so you'd need mechanisms for managing your keys, keeping them safe but also making them available when needed. Throw in some dual-factor authentication where you want a high level of security, and you've basically solved the issue.

  8. So...revoke the certificate by Overzeetop · · Score: 4, Informative

    Any biometric password should be based on a certificate, not a direct digital representation of the biometric.

    --
    Is it just my observation, or are there way too many stupid people in the world?
  9. The problem is false negative by Geoffrey.landis · · Score: 3, Insightful

    What happens if you get sick or injured? Can you imagine pink eye with retinal scanners?

    Yes, this is the serious problem-- just as serious as the problem of people fooling the password-alternative is the problem of the false negatives: getting locked out.

    Notice that most of these weren't fingerprint scanners or retinal scanners-- they were stuff like gait monitors, or even more bizarre stuff, like listening to your heartbeat. So, if you twist your ankle--or even buy a new pair of shoes-- you're out of luck. Taking pseudoephedrine for a cold? Ooops, your heartrate is different. You're locked out.

    --instead of using these instead of password, however, what about if you use alternate ID as a second check. It doesn't lock you out, but it does trigger a watchdog alert that pays attention to what you're doing.

    You can change a password, you can't change your retina print. What do you do when your account is compromised? Get new eyes?

    Yes, we've all seen dozens of those science fiction stories where they steal people's eyes, or cut off their fingers, or take swabs of their DNA.

    --
    http://www.geoffreylandis.com
    1. Re:The problem is false negative by geekoid · · Score: 5, Insightful

      "Yes, we've all seen dozens of those science fiction stories where they steal people's eyes, or cut off their fingers, or take swabs of their DNA."
      cute, but not what the poster is talking about.

      Your info, weather its a password, or the bio-metric info will get turned into a string and stored in a database.
      Once that database in compromised, your bio-metric info on EVERY system you log into needs to be change to a different bio metric. They don't actually need to physical eye.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
  10. They should watch "Archer"... by QilessQi · · Score: 5, Funny

    Pam: Oh, OK, then good luck with all the biometric scanners. Unless you wanna cut off my fingers and scoop out my retinas.

    Kidnappers look at each other.

    Pam: Oh, don't be dicks!

  11. A standardized interface for changing passwords by Marrow · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Every single site has a different way of giving you a way to change your password. This makes it impossible to write programs to write programs to change your password....like a password manager for instance. Imagine if you could just type in your new password into your password manager program, and it changes all the passwords it manages with one click. They could all be randomly generated and different for every site. Hints, recovery, email addresses, could all be updated with one click. With a history as to the previous versions in case something went south.

    Instead of struggling with writing all the captcha's, and strength meters, and interfaces, and all the CRAP that the every site on the planet does differently. Just standardize the interface and maintenance of passwords. And then standardize the strength of the generator programs. And voila, permanent security that is controlled where it should be: in your hands.