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Princeton Nuclear Fusion Reactor Will Run Again

mdsolar writes with good news for the National Spherical Torus Experiment. Tucked away from major roadways and nestled amid more than 80 acres of forest sits a massive warehouse-like building where inside, a device that can produce temperatures hotter than the sun has sat cold and quiet for more than two years. But the wait is almost over for the nuclear fusion reactor to get back up and running at the Princeton Plasma Physics Laboratory. "We're very excited and we're all anxious to turn that machine back on," said Adam Cohen, deputy director for operations at PPPL. The National Spherical Torus Experiment (NSTX) has been shut down since 2012 as it underwent a $94 million upgrade that will make it what officials say will be the most powerful fusion facility of its kind in the world. It is expected to be ready for operations in late winter or early spring, Cohen said.

33 of 147 comments (clear)

  1. Public cynicism about fusion by i+kan+reed · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Public cynicism about fusion seems to have peaked at almost exactly the same time as there are a lot of new ideas and experiments ready to go.

    Even the needlessly big, expensive NIF has hit some amazing recent roadmarks recently(scientific net positive), while at the same time their funding is being slashed. Lots of new clever experiments seem to be promising(like Larwenceville plasma physics' Focus Fusion record heat density), in an era where no one in policy positions seems interested in chasing the tech.

    I'm glad Princeton is getting back in the game, but everything I hear says there won't be enough funding to actually get the staffing they need.

    1. Re:Public cynicism about fusion by i+kan+reed · · Score: 4, Insightful

      And here is that cynicism personified. Notice how anonymous coward here doesn't mention any sort of concrete goals he thinks should have been met, and haven't. Notice how he talks about a money pit, but doesn't talk about allocation. It always always always reads as repeating complaints you've heard somewhere else.

      Tell me, how much slippage on the NIF timeline would be too much? Or ITER? What scientific results do you think have been unsatisfactory?

    2. Re:Public cynicism about fusion by LWATCDR · · Score: 2

      I really would like to hear some more news on the Lockheed high-beta fusion project and the Pollywell program.

      --
      See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
    3. Re:Public cynicism about fusion by SJHillman · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Isn't that true of pretty much every technology that's still in the development stage? There was a time when microprocessors weren't worth the materials they were made with, but they seem to have paid off in the long run. If we can get fusion to pay off, the benefits could potentially far outweigh what we've gotten from the microprocessor.

    4. Re:Public cynicism about fusion by MyLongNickName · · Score: 2, Interesting

      It may be cynicism, but it is well placed cynicism. I'm all for funding fusion research, but the reality is that we are decades away from seeing anything remotely economically viable.

      And the other reality is that we do have solar which is already economically viable but still behind fossil fuels (if you forget about externalites). If I were king of the world, I'd fund solar heavily because it can do good NOW. Serious good. World saving good.

      And, yes, it is a false dichotomy to say we can only fund one. But the other reality is that we have only so much money for the sciences and one dollar spent on one project is one not spent on the other. If I were King of the world I'd also cut military spending and fund sciences much more heavily.

      But, alas, I am not King of the world.

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    5. Re:Public cynicism about fusion by LordKronos · · Score: 3, Insightful

      We've been chasing the mythical beast of fusion for decades and are not any closer to it this century than we were last century.

      First, I think you are wrong. There has been a lot of progress, and although were are not yet CLOSE, we are CLOSER.

      That said, how many hundreds of years did man spend trying to learn how to fly? Guess we should have given up on that pursuit a few hundred years ago.

    6. Re:Public cynicism about fusion by i+kan+reed · · Score: 4, Insightful

      And, yes, it is a false dichotomy to say we can only fund one. But the other reality is that we have only so much money for the sciences and one dollar spent on one project is one not spent on the other.

      Of all major industries, energy has the smallest percentage total revenue directed to funding research. That's already hinting at a problem.

      And there's the fact that a fuckton of that is going to "exploration", i.e. finding more fossil fuels we don't really need.

      Solar is good. Solar is wonderful. Solar has legitimate problems too. You seem to be perfectly willing to sell out the long term future for the medium term, which is the weirdest case of short-sightedness I've ever seen.

    7. Re:Public cynicism about fusion by lostmongoose · · Score: 2

      It helps to frame the discussion in terms of economics. If you take every dollar bill that has ever been spent on fusion research, wadded them up into a big ball, and threw them into a wood burning furnace, you would have a better return on your investment than you have right now. Hell, you could buy lottery tickets and have a better ROI.

      That's an awful lot of words to say exactly nothing. You would have achieved better ROI by not posting at all, if you can't be bothered to actually respond.

    8. Re:Public cynicism about fusion by MyLongNickName · · Score: 5, Interesting

      You seem to be perfectly willing to sell out the long term future for the medium term, which is the weirdest case of short-sightedness I've ever seen.

      And at this point, I think you are deliberately misstating my argument. Fusion is a dream at this point that the most knowledgeable in the sciences say is at least 60-80 years away from economic viability. Don't believe me? Look at the ITER roadmap, publically available. And the reality is that the visionaries are usually overoptimistic. You and I will be dead before it becomes viable and our children as well. And that is assuming this becomes viable as there is always a risk when talking about advanced tech like this. Even if you are convinced the science will work out, political upheaval could mean that we can't see the project through to the end. Just imagine a more indebted US and Europe having to cut science and a China that no longer has a market to sell to and collapses on its own centrally managed bureaucracy. Insert your own worst case scenario and you see why century long, multi billion dollar research projects are risky.

      So, fund it? Sure. But not at the expense of something that is a sure thing and will have a huge benefit now. You state that solar is somehow selling out the long-term... unless you mean over a billion years from now when the Sun goes nova, I'm not sure how this is remotely accurate.

      --
      See my journal for slashdot ID's by year. Mine created in 2005. http://slashdot.org/journal/289875/slashdot-ids-by-year
    9. Re:Public cynicism about fusion by Andy+Dodd · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Many of the delays in fusion research can be attributed directly to inconsistent funding.

      If you keep on yanking money and then giving it back again, you're going to get FAR less productivity during the funded periods than if there were continuous funding.

      --
      retrorocket.o not found, launch anyway?
    10. Re:Public cynicism about fusion by Applehu+Akbar · · Score: 4, Funny

      Yes, as we all know, that big shiny thing in the sky burns wood.

    11. Re:Public cynicism about fusion by gman003 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      That gives me an idea. If you build this in a way that looks cool (obviously make it functional first and foremost, but style it whenever you get a chance), you could rent it out to Hollywood studios needing a set.

      Make a control room with lots of blinkenlights, put in a window to something that glows (it can be the capacitors or whatever, if putting a window into a tokemak is a bad idea, which it probably is), have lots of big cables running around, and so on. And make every room spacious enough that you can fit a camera crew inside it. Charge them $50K/day to use it as a set, only conditions being that they can't alter or break the functional parts, and any new parts they add have to be removed once they stop using the set.

      This doesn't have to fund the entire project, it just has to pay off the cost of the cosmetics and the downtime, and after that it's free money. If you spent a quarter-million dollars making it look like something out of Star Trek, you could pay that off with a week of filming Star Trek XII or whatever number they're up to now.

      Plus - the public outreach. The general public are, unfortunately, idiots. You could be doing some amazing research, be the top lab in the world in your field, and they would just complain about "their" tax money being spent on it. But making something "mad bitchin'"? They can get behind that.

    12. Re:Public cynicism about fusion by i+kan+reed · · Score: 2

      What's "turnover"?

      No, see, I'm a US Congressman, and the notion of an employee being replaced is confusing to me. It doesn't happen here.

    13. Re:Public cynicism about fusion by geogob · · Score: 2

      It's because of AC like you I need a cushion on my wall. Else my head would hurt a little bit more every few days.

    14. Re:Public cynicism about fusion by phantomfive · · Score: 2, Informative

      Many of the delays in fusion research can be attributed directly to inconsistent funding.

      As this chart makes clear and should be part of every fusion discussion.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    15. Re:Public cynicism about fusion by meta-monkey · · Score: 4, Insightful

      And it's insane when you compare fusion research funding to military spending in general, or what we spent on the Iraq war specifically. If we'd spent a fraction of those amounts on energy research...my God. It's not for sure that throwing money at energy research will solve all our problems, but come on, our society runs on energy, and the cheap energy we got from long-chain hydrocarbons is never coming back.

      When I think about threats to the future of stable society, lack of cheap energy is #1. If I were a conspiracy theorist, I would have all kinds of interesting ideas as to why the government isn't pumping more money into solving this problem.

      --
      We don't have a state-run media we have a media-run state.
    16. Re:Public cynicism about fusion by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Really? The vacuum tube was invented in 1907. The FET transistor was invented in 1925. Thee point-contact transistor in 1947. The first 'high frequency' one in 1953 (60Hz). Digital computers appearing in the 40s but with mechanical equivalents decades earlier.

      The first microprocessor wasn't until 1968.

      And the power of those first ones was still limited - hence you needed rooms full of them to be able to do a modest amount of 'useful' work, such that the smallest school calculator now is more powerful than the most powerful computer in the world at that time. Most of what we would consider 'useful' now has only possible in the past couple of decades.

      So really... they weren't in development for decades before they were useful???

      Besides, fusion is a little different to compare - the transistors and early microprocessors weren't useful for much, but were useful for some specific tasks so we got immediate gains while still during their development. Fusion requires you to hit reach a special point of development before it becomes useful - where you generate more power than you consume. Until that point it's not useful yet because you're running at a loss.

    17. Re:Public cynicism about fusion by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

      And how much of that is precisely because we keep cutting funding or simply not devoting the resources that could make it viable in, say, 20 years? No, fusion is seen as a long-term investment so there's every incentive to make long-term funding decisions that seen no reason to get a result in 20 years vs 60 years if it means spending three times as much (at least) in 20 years. That it creates some sort of morale problem seems to be missed or ignored

      Exactly.

      Break ground in 2008, 5 years before construction begins (2013), another 2 before assembly of the reactor (2015), 4 more years before commissioning (2019), and only starting full operations in 2027. That's 19 years. It should not take 7 years simply to build the building that will house the reactor, unless money is so tight that they have to pull money out of multi-year budgets. If you throw enough funding at it they should easily be able to go from breaking ground to first plasma in a fifth of the time their roadmap shows. The building that takes 7 years to build should be able to go up in 3 months easily.

    18. Re: Public cynicism about fusion by catchblue22 · · Score: 4, Interesting

      The Skunkworks high beta fusion reactor seems very interesting. 100MW reactor the size of a semi trailer and the complexity of a jet engine. Uses radio waves to heat the plasma (like a microwave oven). Confines plasma in a cylinder as opposed to a torus. In a tokamak reactor the confining magnetic field is created by the motion of the plasma. Thus the strength of the field decreases further from the plasma, creating an inherent instability. This creates a negative stability feedback because if the tokamak plasma expands the confining field gets weaker. I believe this is one of the reasons tokamaks need to be so huge to function.

      The high beta reactor has a confining field that increases in strength as you move farther from the plasma, making confinement inherently stable. The machine was designed by Dr. Thomas McGuire who did his PhD thesis on fusors at MIT. It may be possible to build a full reactor by as soon as 2017 for a cost measured in millions, NOT billions.

      --
      This and no other is the root from which a tyrant springs; when first he appears as a protector - Plato (423 to 327 BC)
    19. Re:Public cynicism about fusion by SoftwareArtist · · Score: 2

      Isn't that true of pretty much every technology that's still in the development stage?

      No, I don't think it is. Pretty much every technology that has gone on to be successful has started from a simple, working proof of concept and then scaled up from there. That covers everything from the steam engine to the telephone to nuclear energy to the microprocessor. Contrast that with fusion energy: 60-odd years of work, many billions of dollars spent, and we still don't have a minimal working proof of concept.* That's pretty depressing. Can you name any other technology that started out as badly yet went on to become successful? I can't think of one.

      Given the history, I think extreme skepticism is the only rational response.

      * By a "minimal working proof of concept", I mean a controlled fusion reactor (not a bomb) that produces more energy than it takes to run the reactor (and hence actually functions as a power source).

      --
      "I'm too busy to research this and form an educated opinion, but I do have time to tell everyone my uninformed opinion."
  2. Re:Spherical Torus by dtmos · · Score: 4, Informative

    Spherical Torus?

    I wondered the same thing. However, the National Spherical Torus Experiment web site has this explanation:

    The magnetic field in NSTX forms a plasma that is a torus since there is a hole through the center, but where the outer boundary of the plasma is almost spherical in shape, hence the name “spherical torus” or “ST”.

    There are also some links to more detailed descriptions.

  3. Re:Spherical Torus by SJHillman · · Score: 2

    Not to be confused with a spherical taurus in a vacuum.

  4. Re:Spherical Torus by funwithBSD · · Score: 2, Funny

    I'm an Elliptical Pisces,

    what's your sign?

    --
    Never answer an anonymous letter. - Yogi Berra
  5. Re:mdsolar again by jgtg32a · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I think you forgot to change accounts before posting.

  6. Re:Spherical Torus by i+kan+reed · · Score: 4, Funny

    Newsflash: humans use approximations when convenient for explaining something, and do not use strict definitions at all times.

  7. Re:mdsolar again by Chas · · Score: 2

    Of course it makes no sense!

    Why would a nice, stable form of baseline power with a compact, energy-dense fuel supply interest anyone? Amiright?

    --


    Chas - The one, the only.
    THANK GOD!!!
  8. Re:Spherical Torus by geogob · · Score: 2, Informative

    In other words, it's a torus.

    No it is not. There is a very clear defintion to what a torus is, and this is not. It may be seen as a torus-like shape, but not a torus. Proper use of terminology is important in science and engineering.

    It may not be of the standard donut dimensions people are accustomed to when they think torus, but it's still a torus.

    Again, its not a question of what people are accustomed to, but rather a question of definition. And no, the shape named "thorus" is not defined through the shape of a donut.

    It's like saying that a rectangle with dimensions of 50x51 is a square-like rectangle. Simply calling it a rectangle would do.

    False analogy. Both linguisting points are absolutely not comparable. In the case of the shape of the Tokamak built at PPPL, it is neither a sphere nor a torus. It's something else, which has no specific name. In your analogy, the 50x51 surface IS a rectangle. A better analogy would be, assuming there is no name such as rectangle for a 50x51 surface with straight angles, calling it a square-like box.

  9. Pick your battles by sjbe · · Score: 2

    Proper use of terminology is important in science and engineering.

    When we get to any actual science or engineering then I will pretend to care. Until then it really is not important in a forum like slashdot to anyone but a few overly pedantic people who don't know when to pick their battles. Just because people here generally care about science and engineering doesn't mean we can't deal with a little obvious imprecision in a description of a shape. No one will be negatively affected by the fact that it isn't truly a torus and most of us are well aware that it isn't actually a torus by the proper defintion. It's like pointing out that the Saint Louis Arch is actually a catenary instead of a parabola as is commonly assumed. Interesting but ultimately not genuinely important 99.999999999% of the time.

  10. Re: Spherical Torus by Zalbik · · Score: 3, Insightful

    How come no one mentions that the world's most powerful fusion reactor consumes more energy than it produces?

    The first airplane only flew 120 feet. Clearly air travel should never have been researched after such an abysmal failure in one of the first attempts.

  11. Re: Spherical Torus by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 2

    The first airplane only flew 120 feet.

    ... and sixty years later we were walking on the moon. Sixty years after the first fusion reactor, where are we?

  12. Thorium? by burisch_research · · Score: 2

    One bajillion comments, and nobody's mentioned Thorium yet? I am surprised. Am I the only one around here who thinks a liquid-fluoride thorium reactor (LFTR) is a very good idea?

    --
    char*f="char*f=%c%s%c;main(){printf(f,34,f,34);}";main(){printf(f,34,f,34);}
  13. Re:Spherical Torus by TheInternetGuy · · Score: 2

    Newsflash: humans use approximations when convenient for explaining something, and do not use strict definitions at all times.

    Bah silly humans, you don't even have a working protocol for inter individual communication and you think that you are going to master fusion.

    --
    If my comment didn't sound as good in your head as it did in mine, then I guess we all know who's to blame