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The Grumpy Programmer has Advice for Young Computer Workers (Video)

Posted by Roblimo on from the hey-kids-get-off-my-code dept.

Bob Pendleton calls his blog "The Grumpy Programmer" because he's both grumpy and a programmer. He's also over 60 years old and has been programming since he was in his teens. This pair of videos is a break from our recent spate of conference panels and corporate people. It's an old programmer sharing his career experiences with younger programmers so they (you?) can avoid making his mistakes and possibly avoid becoming as grumpy as he is -- which is kind of a joke, since Bob is not nearly as grumpy as he is light-hearted. (Transcript covers both videos. Alternate Video Link One; Alternate Video Link Two)

32 of 120 comments (clear)

  1. First sentence by HairyNevus · · Score: 4, Insightful

    "Bob Pendleton calls his blog "The Grumpy Programmer" because he's both grumpy and a programmer."

    Thanks, Rob!!

    ;-P

    --
    You were critically hit for no damage. The bruise will look nice, and maybe the scars will make good party talk.
    1. Re:First sentence by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Funny

      Blackadder: "I seek information about a Wisewoman."
      Young Crone: "Ah, the Wisewoman... the Wisewoman."
      Blackadder: "Yes, the Wisewoman."
      Young Crone: "Two things, my lord, must thee know of the Wisewoman. First, she is... a woman. And second, she is..."
      Blackadder: "Wise?"
      Young Crone: "You do know her then?"
      Blackadder: "No, just a wild stab in the dark which is, incidentally, what you'll be getting if you don't start being a bit more helpful."

    2. Re:First sentence by stonewolf · · Score: 2

      The "the" is there because I could not get .org .net, and .com of grumpyprogrammer,

    3. Re:First sentence by hughbar · · Score: 2

      Yes, exactly. I am planning to start the 'tautology party' with policies like 'higher taxes mean that taxes are higher'. The party will make about as much sense as the current political parties.

      Incidentally [and unrelatedly] I'm 63, a programmer and grumpy. I hate every 'latest' javascript framework, stupid hipster hats and THOSE KIDS ON MY LAWN.

      --
      On y va, qui mal y pense!
  2. Transcript... by mythosaz · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The transcript reads like a conversation between two guys with almost nothing to say. I'm honestly not sure what my takeaway from this should have been. Guy was a working programmer for 30 years (unemployed for the last 12+), and now he's... ...a guy making small-talk in a video?

    Help me understand what I missed.

    1. Re:Transcript... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      You've missed that Slashdot has become a steaming turd of inconsequence.
       
      Will the last fucktard to leave please turn off the light?

    2. Re:Transcript... by istartedi · · Score: 2

      Help me understand what I missed

      The fact that they actually gave us a transcript instead of trying to make us watch two videos. I skimmed it in a couple minutes and reached the same conclusion. It's just a lot of dime-a-dozen cliches; but I didn't waste too much time finding that out. Thanks. Now make it a rule that you can't do video stories without a transcript, unless it's something where a transcript doesn't make sense such as a rocket launch, electronic music, or a badass sharkbot shooting lasers.

      --
      For all intensive purposes, "whom" is no longer a word. That begs the question, "who cares"?
    3. Re:Transcript... by grcumb · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The transcript reads like a conversation between two guys with almost nothing to say.

      Because a real grumpy programmer doesn't fucking talk on a fucking video. A real grumpy programmer uses text, just like he always did, to write about how those hipster fucks who think they have even half a fucking clue deserve get run out of town on the Rails they rode in on.

      A real grumpy programmer still fucking hates Microsoft, but can't be arsed even to hold down the shift key long enough to type a '$' - even though those monopolistic fucks in Redmond deserve it. Develop my ass, Ballmer.

      A real grumpy programmer knows what C is for, but the pissant little twerps who bitch about the lack of strong typing in Perl can go get fucked, because fuck you, that's why. And fuck your Web 2 Point fucking Oh, and fuck your Twitter and fuck your fucking FuckBook.

      And that, my child, is what a real grumpy programmer looks like, because get the fuck off my fucking lawn you ignorant little turd polisher.

      --
      Crumb's Corollary: Never bring a knife to a bun fight.
    4. Re:Transcript... by the_skywise · · Score: 2

      I wasted my mod points.... :(

    5. Re:Transcript... by Cute+Fuzzy+Bunny · · Score: 2

      As someone who has been unemployed for the last 14 years, I can manage anything because I've been doing almost nothing besides reading about everything on the internet.

      Oh, and I'm also stupidly wealthy, which is why I haven't had to work since 2000. Which probably qualifies me for a few things here and there.

    6. Re:Transcript... by Cute+Fuzzy+Bunny · · Score: 4, Informative

      I learned that many programmers are musicians or good at various art forms. Which surprised me because I was a good programmer and can't play a musical instrument or do anything artistic at all.

      I learned that if you're a coder, you'd better have a career change lined up before you're too far along into your 40's.

      I learned that when you're older if you lose your job, good luck getting re-employed.

      I learned that if you want life long income from writing code, you'd have been well off to learn legacy languages and operating systems and get a job with a large business or the government. In fact, doing that now would leave you with a lot less competition for highly specialized work and you'd largely be competing with old farts for jobs.

      I learned how to reduce stress.

      As a code writer from the 70's through the early 90's and the manager of programmers through early 2000's, followed by watching almost everyone I know who did it lose their jobs in their early 50's and go through hell to find work, seems like all of that is not only reliable but pretty important.

      That's without going back and re-reading the transcript.

  3. Incredibly wise advice by dtmos · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Robin Miller: But age discrimination in employment, have you encountered?

    Bob Pendleton: Oh, absolutely. I got laid off on my 49th birthday and haven’t been able to find a full time job since.

    One piece of advice I always give younger engineers and programmers is to be increasingly vigilant about your career as you age. In the last decade or so before retirement one is very vulnerable to layoffs, because one's salary is high and one's formal education was a long time ago.

    1. Re:Incredibly wise advice by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      So live below your means and invest everything you can, so that once you hit that limit you will be financially independent.

      Also, don't have kids. They cost a fortune.

      And also, don't get married, because divorces tend to wipe out 50-70 percent of your net worth.

    2. Re:Incredibly wise advice by __aaclcg7560 · · Score: 2

      If you're a tech contractor, you may very well get fired tomorrow. Prior to the Great Recession, I used to change jobs every three years. My last three jobs each ended after nine months. My current job is a one-year contract, but my employment is in jepoardy because someone complained that my pants were wrinkled were last week. My newest resume is already on the job search websites. Plan for the worst, hope for the best.

    3. Re:Incredibly wise advice by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 5, Interesting

      And also, don't get married, because divorces tend to wipe out 50-70 percent of your net worth.

      Or just don't get divorced. It is common knowledge that half of all marriages end in divorce. But that hides huge variations. If both partners have college degrees, the divorce rate is about 20%. If both have engineering degrees, it is about 10%. It helps to marry someone trained in problem solving, and capable of rational thinking.

    4. Re:Incredibly wise advice by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

      It helps to marry someone ... capable of rational thinking.
       
      Well, once you get past the gay marriage issue you're kind of SOL.

    5. Re:Incredibly wise advice by Skarjak · · Score: 4, Funny

      -_-

    6. Re:Incredibly wise advice by Cute+Fuzzy+Bunny · · Score: 4, Informative

      Kids don't have to cost very much. Billions of them are raised around the world for next to nothing. Living below your means and having a good retirement account is a very good idea.

      But yeah, marriage is a piss poor idea. You have no idea what you're going to get. My ex wife held her breath for 5.5 years of dating and everything was wonderful. Which ended within days of the ring going on her finger.

      The old saying is true: marriages fail because men think that everything will stay the same and women think everything will be different.

      I survived financially because most of my assets were earned before we married and weren't community property. There's a reason they call it financial death.

    7. Re:Incredibly wise advice by Cute+Fuzzy+Bunny · · Score: 2

      As usual, statistics lie. In dual degree marriages with engineering degrees there is a lot of money involved so one or both eats a lot of shit so they can live in the nice house, drive the nice cars and enjoy their earnings.

      In poor marriages, there isn't enough money to make it worthwhile.

      Its also interesting to note that second marriage divorce rates are higher than first, and third marriages are even worse. So they don't learn from their mistakes and failures beget higher failures. Once you're done with your first one, everyone you date will already have been married and divorced at least once. The ones that make it into their 40's without ever marrying are a real treat, because there's a reason.

      And if you think that problem solving and rational thinking happens in a marriage...wow, have you got some surprises coming to you.

  4. Speaking as a grumpy by oldhack · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I'm one of these grumpies. Some of what I had to say may be useful to the wet-behind-the-year dopes. Not likely, though, because, back when I was at their age, I didn't listen to the old geezers, and that both helped me as well as screwed me.

    So, given the rapid speed of change in the landscape of IT industry, I have to wonder how relevant our experiences and lessons would be to the young'uns.

    --
    Fuck systemd. Fuck Redhat. Fuck Soylent, too. Wait, scratch the last one.
    1. Re:Speaking as a grumpy by russotto · · Score: 2

      Lambdas. Ha. Lambdas are older than I am, and they think they discovered them. Garbage collection, too. Yeah, we know, functional programming and garbage collection will save the day and no one will ever have to write a loop, mutate an object, or allocate memory again. How many years have they been saying that? Probably longer than they've been saying RISC will kick CISCs butt, and ... oh, hell, the young'ns don't even know what that is, do they.

  5. 2014... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting

    It's 2014 and we still have streaming video served up as FLASH???? ON SLASHDOT?!?!?!?!?! What a joke.

  6. Different ages of development by mabu · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I am not sure there's much advice us older programmers can give new developers because the industry is a lot different now.

    In the old days we were often tasked with solving a problem, and we were more-often free to use whatever tools and technology were best, and we also thought of development environments as tools, which we could switch out if the application required something different. We also did all our own testing. I recently worked with a younger programmer on a project and it was miserable. He couldn't give me 20 lines of code that didn't have a bug in it, because he was dependent upon having some QA person test his work and an IDE that would hilight every mistake.

    Nowadays there is so much abstraction going on in programming, people don't really seem like they're programming as much as they're using some sort of GUI development tool and plodding through innumerable amounts of API documentation and going on witch-hunts to try and figure out why something that's documented to work, doesn't actually work. I remember a big Oracle project I was on where my software wouldn't work properly and I couldn't figure out why. It took me several months of bitching on usenet to finally get a rep within Oracle contact me privately and tell me I wasn't crazy, they knew about the bug and just weren't acknowledging it. In the old days, there wasn't as much of that going on. Programming was simpler and less bureaucratic.

    1. Re:Different ages of development by Art3x · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I liked the part about poetry. That rings true. I came to programming from writing. They have a lot in common.

      I am not sure there's much advice us older programmers can give new developers because the industry is a lot different now.

      Experience counts. It's wiser to hire someone with 25 instead of 5 years experience. I generally get better results from the elders, whether they are my server admin, plumber, or barber. The years round off rough edges, and they're just more relaxed. They may be grumpy, but they always seem ready to make a joke. In their work they are more methodical and deliberate. They seem to be working slowly, but they finish sooner. They're mainly just less frantic, less wasted motion, more thoughful. There's no problem they can't figure out, eventually. They also are more likely to be the ones to insist on doing the job right, or thoroughly, more than the customer is asking them to. They are more likely to describe something as elegant or know what the word means.

      This obsession with youth is sort of like how everything's new "on the Internet." Eventually the gleam will wear off, and society hopefully will realize that it's better to hire old people, just like it's better to hire master plumbers, 60-year-old architects, and gray-haired graphic designers. Steve Jobs, for NeXT's logo, paid $100,000 to Paul Rand, who was 72.

      I recently worked with a younger programmer on a project and it was miserable. He couldn't give me 20 lines of code that didn't have a bug in it, because he was dependent upon having some QA person test his work and an IDE that would hilight every mistake.

      I'm a web programmer in my 30s, but I use vi, psql, and --- well, that's about it.

  7. Re:My advice...RUN! by lgw · · Score: 2

    . Only those few who specialized in now ancient technologies will have any prospects beyond age 40.

    Maybe it's you? I'm 45 and recruiters bother me more than ever. I keep my tech skills current, and carefully manage my career so as not to get stuck looking like an expert only on old things. Senior engineers are golden right now - I find it a great place to be. If what I do could be done by a kid anywhere, well, I'd be a terrible engineer after 20+ years.

    The worst part is, there is no such thing as job security.

    True enough, but it doesn't matter. Other than during the dot-bust, it's never taken me long to get a series of interviews whenever I wanted/needed a new job. This is not a career where staying for a long time at any company is usually rewarded, this is a job where technical success stories on your resume from many years of companies are rewarded.

    If you want to join the Video Game Industry, all this same stuff applies, only cranked up to 11!

    Any job that sounds fun like that will be exploitive and pay less. There's likely no worse corner of this industry than the large game companies. Find something to work on that puts your friends to sleep when you describe it, but people in the industry know is important.

    --
    Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
  8. Re:Programming: You're doing it completely wrong by spitzak · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Actually more often I have seen the opposite: claims the new stuff is going to be faster, the compiler is not smart enough to figure out that they are the same, and thus you should use the new stuff.

    There was a coworker who insisted that using C++ std::foreach for loops was faster because "the compiler knows you can't break out of it and thus can optimize the whole thing". I had two objections to this: first of all it would be a really stupid optimizing compiler that could not figure out there are no "break" statements inside the for loop. And second the C++ was still allowed to throw exceptions in both cases.

    The other objection I had was that the functors were unreadable.

    Yet another objection is my suspicion that the optimization would be far worse on the functors due to the enormous header files of templates they actually used and I expected the optimizer for the simple for loop to have fewer bugs in it. But I did not test this.

  9. Read his blog and lost interest by PJ6 · · Score: 2

    when I discovered that he doesn't bother to proofread or use a spell checker.

    I don't care how long he's been doing it, sloppiness is a sign of a poor programmer.

  10. Re:Programming: You're doing it completely wrong by stonewolf · · Score: 2

    Do you happen to know who is in that picture? That is John McCarthy the inventor of Lisp. The joke is on you.

  11. Terrible advice by SuperKendall · · Score: 2

    And that's why, if you can, you go back to college to get a Bachelor or Masters degree when you get into your late 30's early 40's.

    That is the worst possible advice you could possibly give, except I guess for killing yourself.

    That is when instead of SPENDING ALL YOUR SAVINGS ON SOMETHING THAT WILL NOT MATTER, you should instead think about switching to consulting and increasing your earnings. Can't find a full-job easily past 40-50? Learn to make people pay what you are really worth for the vast amounts of experience you have, because that is worth a lot, save up what you can and enjoy retirement eventually, possibly a lot earlier than you would have if you burned your money like an idiot getting a business degree so you could be unemployed with all the younger business majors who cannot find jobs either.

    --
    "There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
  12. Grumpy Old Geezer by some+old+guy · · Score: 2

    As I near the end of a nominally successful electrical engineering career that spans the humble analog beginnings of automation to the roboticized present, I can look back and smile at what a smart-assed punk kid I was, deriding the old-timers with snot-nosed comments and the immeasurable over-confidence of youth.

    Barring an early death, everyone gets old. Know what? I neither desire nor require the respect or veneration of the young. I got mine. As jobs get scarcer and pay less with each passing year, all I can say to the smartaleck young snerts is, "Suck it. See you in St. Croix."

    On the other hand, ask me nicely and I'm happy to lend a helping hand.

    Respect is a two-way street with no speed limit.

    --
    Scruting the inscrutable for over 50 years.
  13. Re:Programming: You're doing it completely wrong by NotDrWho · · Score: 2

    No, the real joke is that he never actually said that.

    --
    SJW's don't eliminate discrimination. They just expropriate it for themselves.
  14. Re:Age discrimination sucks eh.. by clifwlkr · · Score: 2

    Yes, age discrimination is horrible and very real. I just hit 45 and am seeing it first hand. I work for a 'hot' type company and they actually said in a company wide meeting 'look around you. Notice that you don't see much grey hair. That is on purpose as we want people on their way up, not out'. I was shocked. Meanwhile their people 'on the way up' hack out some of the worst code I have ever seen. We could use a few more people on their way out to actually make some scalable and well architected products so our servers don't fail under the weight of this pile of crap they created. Thing that sucks is I am right now the best I have ever been with all of this experience and I am afraid it is going to get harder and harder to get a decent job.